Seeking army-killer spells... that don't kill.

[DataPacRat]

I'm looking at a 20+th level good wizard who is sufficiently overpowered as to be able to face off against modern-day militaries and not only beat them, but avoid killing anyone in the process. (Pretend he's Santa, and has to make annual deliveries in the face of most governments' opposition.) 3.5e, third-party and Dragon magazine allowed. Houserule: No Divine Rank of 1 or more, no Pun-Punning, and if any tricks for infinite wishes actually worked then all the major figures in the Lower Planes would already have used them and destroyed the multiverse.

A couple of the more interesting items that have caught my eye - in Dragon #309 are 'War' spells, which become quite overpowered with a sufficiently high-level caster; eg, at caster level 20, an 8th level summon monster slot can summon, not a single 8th level monster, but 500 7th-level ones. And in the 3rd-party splatbook 'Dragon Magic - Power Incarnate' is 'Speak High Draconic', which allows a caster to pile on metamagic, without needing the feats or adding spell levels, by making a skill check that's pretty easy for a high-level caster. Which could add, say, Persistent's 24-hour duration to that Summon.

But simply summoning heavy-hitters to squish soldiers, sailors, and airmen isn't the goal here; non-lethally keeping them from killing Santa Wizard during his appointed rounds is. A War version of Temporal Stasis to immobilize 500 soldiers at a shot is a good start - but our wizard only has so many 9th-level slots, and there are a /lot/ of soldiers on Earth. And it might not work well against fighter jets and anti-airsleigh artillery.

How many different tricks can you think of?

[ATHATH]

I'm looking at a 20+th level good wizard who is sufficiently overpowered as to be able to face off against modern-day militaries and not only beat them, but avoid killing anyone in the process. (Pretend he's Santa, and has to make annual deliveries in the face of most governments' opposition.) 3.5e, third-party and Dragon magazine allowed. Houserule: No Divine Rank of 1 or more, no Pun-Punning, and if any tricks for infinite wishes actually worked then all the major figures in the Lower Planes would already have used them and destroyed the multiverse.

A couple of the more interesting items that have caught my eye - in Dragon #309 are 'War' spells, which become quite overpowered with a sufficiently high-level caster; eg, at caster level 20, an 8th level summon monster slot can summon, not a single 8th level monster, but 500 7th-level ones. And in the 3rd-party splatbook 'Dragon Magic - Power Incarnate' is 'Speak High Draconic', which allows a caster to pile on metamagic, without needing the feats or adding spell levels, by making a skill check that's pretty easy for a high-level caster. Which could add, say, Persistent's 24-hour duration to that Summon.

But simply summoning heavy-hitters to squish soldiers, sailors, and airmen isn't the goal here; non-lethally keeping them from killing Santa Wizard during his appointed rounds is. A War version of Temporal Stasis to immobilize 500 soldiers at a shot is a good start - but our wizard only has so many 9th-level slots, and there are a /lot/ of soldiers on Earth. And it might not work well against fighter jets and anti-airsleigh artillery.

How many different tricks can you think of?
Why not just use Invisibility and/or Teleport?

[ben-zayb]

Entangling Exhalation + Enlarge Breath spam on a non-energy breath weapon? Not sure if there's a way to make breath weapon damage deal nonlethal instead

[DataPacRat]

Why not just use Invisibility and/or Teleport?

Because then the armies would set up traps in the homes that he has to deliver to, likely adding innocent civilians to the body count even if he himself is unharmed.

[ATHATH]

Because then the armies would set up traps in the homes that he has to deliver to, likely adding innocent civilians to the body count even if he himself is unharmed.
What's to stop them from doing that even if you disable most of the army/navy/airforce/whatever?

Could you give us a bit more background on the situation that you're in?

[DataPacRat]

Entangling Exhalation + Enlarge Breath spam on a non-energy breath weapon? Not sure if there's a way to make breath weapon damage deal nonlethal instead

If the breath weapon is from a spell, there could be the metamagic "Nonlethal Substitution" from 'Book of Exalted Deeds'.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Entangling Exhalation + Enlarge Breath spam on a non-energy breath weapon? Not sure if there's a way to make breath weapon damage deal nonlethal instead

The breath weapon deals it's initial damage regardless so the risk of killing someone is there unless you grab a truly weak breath weapon.

[DataPacRat]

What's to stop them from doing that even if you disable most of the army/navy/airforce/whatever?

Could you give us a bit more background on the situation that you're in?

It's a jumpchain scenario, "The War on Christmas" where the protagonist has to play Santa for a decade, with rules that work by sheer fiat:


For some reason, all the militaries of the world have decided they don't like you. Your workshop is too well protected by the elements and magic for them to attack it, but you'll have to dodge fighter jets and cruise missiles while you're making your deliveries. If you're using the upgraded warehouse, they'll instead be armed and lying in wait in random houses. Don't worry about the kids though, they'll let them keep the toys if you get them there.

My current draft of how to actually explain how that could make sense has my jumper effectively pretending to be an alien:


"Many of your CEOs, generals, and presidents will be wondering what I personally get out of giving all these things away. They value money, so they try to see how I can make money; or they value strength, or power, and look at me through those lenses. But they are making things far too complicated. What I want is simple: sex, with my wives. Some species show off how many extra resources they have by growing hugely impractical antlers. Some show off how skillful they are by stotting. Some birds engage in 'dominance grooming'. Your own species occasionally performs potlatches. By giving impossible amounts of presents against ridiculous amounts of opposition, I am showing my wives what a good husband I am. So if you feel I am violating your territory as I deliver, go ahead and do whatever you can think of to try to stop me. It's all in good fun. Just don't use military force against my workshop on this planet's North Pole, where my mates now live - that's /not/ in good fun, and I think /everyone/ would be unhappy if I had to stop being jolly.

(With some conversation leading to implicit or explicit mentioning about not wanting to have to 'deliver' coal by dropping it from the Moon, which also has a North Pole.)

"Eggnog, anyone?"

[zlefin]

the sheer number of soldiers on earth is high enough to exceed the targetting limits of spells unless oyu use major shenanigans. and like oyu say some things may not work or may not be safe to use vs aircraft and such.
so using non-lethal damage substitutions won't really help.
Here's a simpler question: why care about beating the armies at all? it sounds like what you need to do is make your deliveries. there's no need to beat the armies if you can ignore them.
so you just need to stack a bunch of immunities to cover anything they can and are willing to do you. (by the sound of it they wounld't be willing to use nukes to get you, too much collateral damage). alot of it would depend on dm adjudication of how various traps/pieces of technology would interact with dnd resistances/immunities.

[ATHATH]

Personally, I'd suggest changing your speech/character concept/story to be that you're looking for a mate and thus are making a display of power and wealth in order to attract one, rather than you already having mates and trying to impress them(?).

Anyway, just get loads of DR/Magic and elemental immunities/resistances for yourself, your stuff, and your ride, and you should be fine. IIRC, there's a spell that gives you a magical chariot made of force or fire (I don't remember which) that is drawn by magical horses or something (which can, of course, be refluffed into being reindeer (by the Spell Thematics feat if you need an explicit way to do so)). It might have been from a previous edition, though.

[Westhart]

Hmm, you couldn't circumvent the whole thing and get a magic item that allows anything you put into it to be affected by a teleport item (location of your choosing) effect?

If not for the soldiers of the modern era, I would suggest improved invisibility, plus low level entangles (No FoM, or AMF, probably low level so unlikely to make the save, and you can boost the dc if necessary) etc... unless you intend to take them all at once in which case that wouldn't work...

EDIT: Or you could make a version of Contagion that spreads a nonlethal paralyzing disease that is very contagious, spread about 2 days in major military installations and by the time you have to deliver *bam* requires some homebrew and work with the DM... unles there is something that actually does that... You could design an epic spell that did this... or make it a 9 get your slots above (assuming you have them) and use the metamagic feat (not sure if this is too cheesy) that takes off a save (pre-errata, post adds +10 I believe)

[Grod_The_Giant]

Seems to me that evasion, in this case, would be easier than outright conflict. Go invisible and ethereal (and maybe drop a Forceward) and nothing on real earth can touch you.

[Hiro Quester]

Develop an epic spell that has the effect of a mass suggestion, widen the field to include anyone close enough to engage you.

The suggestion "This guy is really nice and just wants to give presents to children. I should not stop him, i should just pretend I haven't seen him. And I should restrain the people who try to stop this generous and kind merry soul."

Anyone who makes the saving throw will be stopped by colleagues who restrain them.

[Crake]

Hmm, you couldn't circumvent the whole thing and get a magic item that allows anything you put into it to be affected by a teleport item (location of your choosing) effect?

This is what I was gonna suggest. Just get at-will (or however often you need it to function) teleport object, along with an item of at-will scry location to make sure the object made it to it's destination. For extra points, put an invisible arcane mark on each object, and have an item of at-will instant summons to recall the object if it arrives at the wrong destination (which it would likely be prone to do, considering teleport object uses the base teleport spell, not the greater teleport spell).

[Psyren]

They're lying in wait for you, right? Any reason you can't get other creatures to make the deliveries/devour the milk & cookies for you?

It's not like the kids will know, they're not supposed to be awake anyway.

[Yogibear41]

Be Krampus and have Bearded Devil's Teleport deliver the presents for you.

[Calthropstu]

Some suggestions:
1: Polymorph into something with a paralytic breath weapon and serious dr.
2: Create numerous simulacrae of yourself flying presents into multitudes of homes at once.
3: Create a spell to teleport the items themselves to the intended destination.
4: Create a series of teleportation circles each year to your targets, cutting travel distance to nothing.
5: Shapeshift into something innocuous like a rabbit or even a fly, go into the target locations shapeshift back, deposit presents, shapeshift leave.
6: Planar bind large numbers of teleporting angels to deliver the packages.
7: Summon an earth elemental to deliver them which can earthglide under houses.
8: Isn't there some form of epic sleep spell?

[gkathellar]

Symbol of Sleep seems like a good fit for Santa's MO, and will incapacitate just about anything below 11th level. Best of all: you can take it with you.

[Astralia123]

Well, as long as this guy is 20+ level, I'm surprised no one mentions epic spells so far...You can use the assistant factor to reduce SC DC to a really reasonable level, using simulacrums of yourself as ritual assistants. There are a lot of ways to neglect XP cost of this spell, but whatever - actually paying this cost would be much cheaper than you may have cost on researching a high spellcraft DC epic spell. And as long as your preparation do not provoke any intruders, you can design the spell as anything that may deal with whatever problem you are facing in one shot. Like, a regional sized epic mind-affecting effect that forbids the weapon attacks against you or in your vicinity without your approval.

BTW, the question is not to just make yourself invincible, but to effectively subdue the armies. There is always a chance that someone gets killed accidentally whenever the weapons are fired. Friendly fires, accidental fires, firearm malfunctions, accidental bombings... The safer strategy is to subdue the armies *before* they ever start attacking.

[Crake]

Well, as long as this guy is 20+ level, I'm surprised no one mentions epic spells so far...

That's cause he didn't say 20+, he said 20th level caster, which doesn't qualify for epic.

[Astralia123]

That's cause he didn't say 20+, he said 20th level caster, which doesn't qualify for epic.

He said "20+th".

[DataPacRat]

the sheer number of soldiers on earth is high enough to exceed the targetting limits of spells unless oyu use major shenanigans.

Major shenanigans are most of the point here. :)


so you just need to stack a bunch of immunities to cover anything they can and are willing to do you. (by the sound of it they wounld't be willing to use nukes to get you, too much collateral damage). alot of it would depend on dm adjudication of how various traps/pieces of technology would interact with dnd resistances/immunities.

Are there any 3.5 stats for, say, a modern-day MOAB?



Personally, I'd suggest changing your speech/character concept/story to be that you're looking for a mate and thus are making a display of power and wealth in order to attract one, rather than you already having mates and trying to impress them(?).

The jump lasts for at least a decade, so I simplified the motivation-description a bit to cover both early and late deliveries.


IIRC, there's a spell that gives you a magical chariot made of force or fire (I don't remember which) that is drawn by magical horses or something (which can, of course, be refluffed into being reindeer (by the Spell Thematics feat if you need an explicit way to do so)). It might have been from a previous edition, though.

The Chariot of Sustarre? The only 3e version I know if is from a Dragon article, in the form of a Figurine of Wondrous Power style item instead of a spell.



Hmm, you couldn't circumvent the whole thing and get a magic item that allows anything you put into it to be affected by a teleport item (location of your choosing) effect?

In jumpchains, the restrictions imposed by drawbacks (including 'The War on Christmas') override most-to-all other rules. When it says "you'll have to dodge fighter jets and cruise missiles", then fighter jets and cruise missiles there will be (at the least), even if Santa Jumper would be better served by teleporting all the gifts directly.


the metamagic feat (not sure if this is too cheesy) that takes off a save (pre-errata, post adds +10 I believe)

I really, really want to use the pre-errata version of that piece of metamagic, especially in conjunction with the 3rd-party "High Draconic" add-on, but I just can't quite bring myself to go against the actual rules. Cheese the heck out of whatever rules are written, sure, but not break them.



[COLOR="#0000FF"]Just use Resilient Sphere and Heightened Major Creation (Uranium) above a remote section of the Pacific Ocean, to create and survive a 190 megaton explosion

I thought I'd read that the most boom-worthy cheese of that spell would be to conjure up a mass of anti-osmium, rather than mere uranium. ... Of course, to do that, the demonstration would probably have to be on some planetary body that Santa Jumper was willing to get rid of.

Either way, if a WMD demonstration is needed, there's probably a simpler approach, with less muss and fuss, which I tried to hint at earlier: Launch a piece of mass from the moon (having it be a piece of coal, and launching it from the moon's North Pole, being mere stylistic flourishes), and imitate the 'rods from God' Project Thor proposal.



They're lying in wait for you, right? Any reason you can't get other creatures to make the deliveries/devour the milk & cookies for you?

It's a scale problem. There's something on the order of a billion households on Earth to deliver to. Since, as far as I know, chain-summoning leads to prohibited forms of infinity, I'm unaware of any method to summon enough delivery entities to get the job done.

(The Santa Jump optionally lets the jumper buy a few extra powers to handle some of the problems, such as elves capable of making enough presents; or, if the jumper doesn't want to handle the transport entirely with their own powers, a vehicle capable of travelling to every household on Earth in one night. If the question "How is Santa Jumper doing that?" is asked, the answer given is "magic". More specifically, "Christmas magic".)



He said "20+th".

Epic spells are definitely usable.

[John Longarrow]

Easy... can be done by a 7th level bard / 1st level cleric.

Persist glibness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glibness.htm) and just tell everyone "I am not the Santa you are looking for"...

What modern soldier can beat a +40~ bluff check?

[Crake]

He said "20+th".

Ah, so he did, I was looking at the second paragraph where he said 20th level caster. Well, in that case, make an epic level spell that literally makes the whole world forget you exist? I mean, that's doable pre-epic with vecna blooded, but that may not be an option here, so back to good-old epic spells.

[Astralia123]

Ah, so he did, I was looking at the second paragraph where he said 20th level caster. Well, in that case, make an epic level spell that literally makes the whole world forget you exist? I mean, that's doable pre-epic with vecna blooded, but that may not be an option here, so back to good-old epic spells.

Well, epic spells isn't a fun answer, cause as long as you can pile up minus factors (which is unlimited, with the ritual assistant trick), you can get literally anything and everything you can think of.



But let's keep this in mind, that subduing a modern army without anyone dying isn't a easy task. Really, anything short of a mass stasis could possibly indirectly result in someone's death. A mass sleep may cause vehicle accidents or falling, or possibly choking in a toilet. Something that frighten the army to sh*t may cause them panic, and some unlucky guy may die of trample accidents. Charming/threatening key politicians may potentially result in a coup de tat or whatever you people call it. Now let's think about it, not every modern army is even sufficiently disciplined.

They are not really problems as long as you have unlimited access to epic spells, though. You can even revive these unlucky buddies...

[shaikujin]

Options you can consider -
Run through the Shriver location to get Regeneration. Mundane weapons do not have the subtypes to bypass the regeneration gained. Thus all damage becomes non lethal.

Next, cast Favor of the Matyr to become immune to no lethal damage.



Alternatively -
Cast a small/selective planar bubble on a minion (say an ant or even an intelligent dagger) native to a fast time plane where 10 years = 1 round. Carry it with you so that you are within the bubble's effect.

Creatures from different time streams cannot affect you. Traps still might though.

As a bonus, you can actually finish Santa's delivery around the world within the same day.

[Gusmo]

Create an infinite action loop during a time stop, and use a gigantic hoard of spell points generated from the spell absorption.

1. On your private demiplane (or whatever secure hideout), you'll need two energy transformation fields (Spell Compendium). One tied to absorption (Spell Compendium), and another tied to any 9th level spell that can target you, such as foresight.
2. Cast shapechange and turn into a nightmare. Go into the energy transformation field keyed to absorption and use the nightmare's astral projection ability, which will cause absorption to be cast on you instead.
3. Go to the energy transformation field keyed to foresight and try to use the astral projection ability, and you'll get foresight cast on you, which triggers absorption. Repeat over and over again throughout the day, every day, until Christmas.
4. By using the gigantic hoard of spell points you accumulate, you can use twinned celerity combined with some form of daze immunity to take an unlimited number of actions within one round. All you need to do is cast twinned celerity, use one of its actions to ready an action to cast twinned celerity again, then one of those actions to ready an action to cast twinned celerity again, and so on. Doing so within the confines of a time stop will prevent others from interrupting your actions.

Over the course of a year, you should be able to generate enough spell points from absorption to, within one time stop, divine and disable any obstacles that await you. Once such obstacles are sufficiently neutralized as to avoid collateral damage, drop off all the packages.

[Bronk]

Major shenanigans are most of the point here. :)

Epic spells are definitely usable.

Sounds like you'd want a mythal, centered on a portable capstone (perhaps Chariot of Sustarre?) with a nice big volume, granting you the spells 'stormrage' for immunity to all missile weapons (almost all modern weaponry) and wind conditions, as well as antipathy, so people nearby ignore you as well.

Maybe add in 'invisibility', 'nondetection', and 'greater blink' as well, so that you can do all of this from the ethereal plane and just invisibly pop out and drop off the gifts with no one the wiser. Oh, or 'time stop', to drop them off without the possibility of triggering any traps.

[Anthrowhale]

Create an infinite action loop during a time stop, and use a gigantic hoard of spell points generated from the spell absorption.

1. On your private demiplane (or whatever secure hideout), you'll need two energy transformation fields (Spell Compendium). One tied to absorption (Spell Compendium), and another tied to any 9th level spell that can target you, such as foresight.
2. Cast shapechange and turn into a nightmare. Go into the energy transformation field keyed to absorption and use the nightmare's astral projection ability, which will cause absorption to be cast on you instead.
3. Go to the energy transformation field keyed to foresight and try to use the astral projection ability, and you'll get foresight cast on you, which triggers absorption. Repeat over and over again throughout the day, every day, until Christmas.
4. By using the gigantic hoard of spell points you accumulate, you can use twinned celerity combined with some form of daze immunity to take an unlimited number of actions within one round. All you need to do is cast twinned celerity, use one of its actions to ready an action to cast twinned celerity again, then one of those actions to ready an action to cast twinned celerity again, and so on. Doing so within the confines of a time stop will prevent others from interrupting your actions.

Over the course of a year, you should be able to generate enough spell points from absorption to, within one time stop, divine and disable any obstacles that await you. Once such obstacles are sufficiently neutralized as to avoid collateral damage, drop off all the packages.

Related to this, the clockwork wizard in my sig is a L20 build with infinite actions&spells/round dependent on zero items.

[Pleh]

Seems like Santa's classic answer was a Time Stop spell with extended duration.

[SirNibbles]

Teleport to the leader of the military, Geas them, and make them surrender.

[DataPacRat]

Seems like Santa's classic answer was a Time Stop spell with extended duration.

Is there any ruling on whether duration-extending metamagic, like Persistent Spell, actually extend the subjective duration of Time Stop?

[Calthropstu]

Teleport to the leader of the military, Geas them, and make them surrender.

Dominate would work better, or a mass charm on the whole army command.

[Anthrowhale]

Is there any ruling on whether duration-extending metamagic, like Persistent Spell, actually extend the subjective duration of Time Stop?

I'd argue 'no' because 'apparent time' is an effect not a duration.