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Nightblade
2007-08-14, 04:39 AM
My group of friends seem (unusually) unclear about this.

It says in the PHB that Charges do not generate an Attack of Opportunity. However, you do when moving through threatened squares. I assumed the lack of attack of opportunity was coming from the target of the charge. My friends don't believe so. Apparently, this means that if you charge through a gauntlet of monsters to hit the BBEQ, nobody is going to swing at you. The way I see it is that because you are moving through threatened squares, people can make attacks of opportunity at you. If possible, what lines would exactly describe who is right? I've read (literally) four or five times through Chapter 7 trying to figure this out but couldn't find anything concrete. The 3.5 PHB Errata didn't help either. Thanks in advance =\

artaxerxes
2007-08-14, 04:46 AM
Charges do not provoke their own AoOs. Unlike, say a standard disarm action.

However the movement *out* of threatened squares en route does so.

If I charge a chap with a reach weapon he gets an AoO when i move through that reach. For the movement.

Of course if I have won initiative, leaving them flatfooted, they don't get any AoOs unless they have Combat Reflexes.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 04:54 AM
Of course if I have won initiative, leaving them flatfooted, they don't get any AoOs unless they have Combat Reflexes.

Or until they get a turn.

Abardam
2007-08-14, 07:21 AM
Of course if I have won initiative, leaving them flatfooted, they don't get any AoOs unless they have Combat Reflexes.Combat Reflexes? Maybe you meant Uncanny Dodge or something?

Ogh_the_Second
2007-08-14, 07:24 AM
Combat Reflexes? Maybe you meant Uncanny Dodge or something?

No - with the Combat Reflexes feat one can make AoO's, even when flatfooted:

From the SRD:

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Dausuul
2007-08-14, 07:25 AM
My group of friends seem (unusually) unclear about this.

It says in the PHB that Charges do not generate an Attack of Opportunity. However, you do when moving through threatened squares. I assumed the lack of attack of opportunity was coming from the target of the charge. My friends don't believe so. Apparently, this means that if you charge through a gauntlet of monsters to hit the BBEQ, nobody is going to swing at you. The way I see it is that because you are moving through threatened squares, people can make attacks of opportunity at you. If possible, what lines would exactly describe who is right? I've read (literally) four or five times through Chapter 7 trying to figure this out but couldn't find anything concrete. The 3.5 PHB Errata didn't help either. Thanks in advance =\

Charges do not, in and of themselves, provoke AoOs. If I charge you, and neither of us has a reach weapon, I do not provoke an AoO from you simply because I'm charging. However, the movement involved in a charge can and often does provoke; if I run past your buddy as I'm charging you, your buddy can take a whack at me normally.

Compare this to (for instance) casting a spell non-defensively, which provokes an AoO all by itself. You don't have to move in the process of casting; you provoke simply because you're casting a spell.

Blackbrrd
2007-08-14, 07:26 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes


Combat Reflexes [General]
Benefit

You may make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to your Dexterity bonus.

With this feat, you may also make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed.

Abardam
2007-08-14, 07:27 AM
I stand corrected, then. Learn something new everyday.

Keld Denar
2007-08-14, 07:49 AM
Yeah, that's the part of combat reflexes most people glaze over when they start drooling about all the AoOs their reach monkey is gonna make with a 20 dex. IMO, the 2nd clause is just as good, if not situationally better in single target encounters. Getting that free damage vs a charging creature during the suprise round is golden. Follow that up with a power attack full attack (opponent has -2 AC, which means you get +4 damage from PA :smallcool: ), and hopefully you can drop whatever was dumb enough to charge you in the first place.

Ogh_the_Second
2007-08-14, 07:52 AM
I stand corrected, then. Learn something new everyday.

Note that Uncanny dodge does not prevent the "flat-footed" condition, and thus does not make it possible for (for example) a 2nd-lvl barbarian to make AoO's before his first turn in combat begins (unless he has Combat reflexes, of course). Uncanny dodge merely prevents the flat-footed condition from causing the barbarian to loose his Dex bonus to AC.

Still, the original poster asked for a direct reference. The best I can do is this, from the FAQ:


Is a character wielding a two-handed reach weapon (such as a longspear) and wearing spiked armor threatening all squares within 10 feet? Assuming he has Combat Reflexes, can he make an attack of opportunity with his longspear and then with his armor spikes in the same round?

A character wearing spiked armor threatens all squares within his normal reach (5 feet away). If he also wields a longspear, he would also threaten all squares 10 feet away. Any time a character wielding more than one weapon is allowed an attack of opportunity, he may use any weapon that threatens the opponent who has provoked the attack. In this case, imagine an enemy who charged the character and then tried to disarm him. The charge attack would provoke an attack of opportunity from the longspear as the enemy moved out of a threatened square (in order to move adjacent to the character and deliver the charge attack). Then, the disarm attempt would provoke another attack of opportunity (assuming the enemy didn’t have Improved Disarm). This attack of opportunity could be made only with the armor spikes, since the longspear doesn’t threaten an adjacent enemy.

(my emphasis)

This makes it clear that the movement involved in a charge does provoke.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-14, 07:53 AM
Plus your battlefield control fighter, standing in front of the wizard, doesn't need to take improved initiative thanks to that clause.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-14, 08:46 AM
Unless he charges with a reach weapon or is a large creature. Large creatures (generally) take up 4 squares. So when they move from the 10' away square to the 5' away square, they haven't actually LEFT the 10' away square, thus no AoO.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-14, 09:13 AM
Combat Reflexes? Maybe you meant Uncanny Dodge or something?
In addition to pointing out the Combat Reflexes feat, it should be pointed out that Uncanny Dodge does not make you immune to being flat-footed. It just lets you retain your Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed. You retain the other penalties: namely the inability to take AoOs or immediate actions.


Unless he charges with a reach weapon or is a large creature. Large creatures (generally) take up 4 squares. So when they move from the 10' away square to the 5' away square, they haven't actually LEFT the 10' away square, thus no AoO.
Uh... No.

That's like saying, "I'm sorry, I can't attack the giant 100 ft. worm until his tail passes me by."

Targeting Large+creatures works by picking any square you can reach.

kjones
2007-08-14, 09:18 AM
So, to answer the original question: Charging through a gauntlet of foes would provoke an AoO from every one that threatened a square that you left.

Prince_of_Blades
2007-08-14, 09:18 AM
In addition to pointing out the Combat Reflexes feat, it should be pointed out that Uncanny Dodge does not make you immune to being flat-footed. It just lets you retain your Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed. You retain the other penalties: namely the inability to take AoOs or immediate actions.

That's not necessarily true. Some versions of Uncanny Dodge, such as those possessed by Scout and Whisperknife, do indeed prevent the flatfooted condition.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-14, 09:20 AM
This is RAW legal, BTW. Check your PHB, page 141, Chapter 8: Combat. See the big table of actions? See the little 1 beside all the Attack of Opportunity?

1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.

Why does moving as a move action provoke an AOO? Because if you're threatened, you have to leave a threatened square to move.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-14, 09:34 AM
That's not necessarily true. Some versions of Uncanny Dodge, such as those possessed by Scout and Whisperknife, do indeed prevent the flatfooted condition.
Given the reference to the Barbarian class description, I'd be inclined to believe that the "cannot be caught flat-footed" was an extremely poorly worded bit of flavor text.

(Don't have access to the Whisperknife class, though. Can't comment on that one.)

I am also hoping WotC is not expanding upon the number of class features with the same name but very important differences. Hide in Plain Sight is bad enough, but at least you have the Extraordinary/Supernatural distinction to help keep things straight.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-14, 09:40 AM
Uh... No.

That's like saying, "I'm sorry, I can't attack the giant 100 ft. worm until his tail passes me by."

Targeting Large+creatures works by picking any square you can reach.

So if the head of a horse is at the 10' position and doesn't leave that position, you don't get an AoO?

OK, my horse does a backflip and kicks you square in the nards...

I know that sounds silly, but it would be the metaphoric result if you tried that. People would start abusing the rules in such a way as to avoid your interpretation of the rule. I think by RAW, it has NOT left the threatened square and thus doesn't provoke an AoO.

And since were bringing up how we think rules were intended, I think that the no AoO thing from the charge means you don't generate one from the person you're charging (not even the move one), however if you leave other people's threatened squares you do generate AoO's from them. That's just my interpretation, since the statement about stuff not happening is pointless if it does happen. Its like saying you don't generate AoO's from standard attack with a sword. I think the baseline rule is that you generate AoO's from the move, but the Charge overrules it with its no AoO's. I'm sure there are other rules that trump that. All of this is just my interpretation, so don't jump down my throat about how it isn't RAW.

ForzaFiori
2007-08-14, 09:44 AM
So, to answer the original question: Charging through a gauntlet of foes would provoke an AoO from every one that threatened a square that you left.

correct. Every enemy that you pass by (and therefor move into and out of a threatened square) would get an AoO.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 11:47 AM
So if the head of a horse is at the 10' position and doesn't leave that position, you don't get an AoO?

OK, my horse does a backflip and kicks you square in the nards...

I know that sounds silly, but it would be the metaphoric result if you tried that. People would start abusing the rules in such a way as to avoid your interpretation of the rule. I think by RAW, it has NOT left the threatened square and thus doesn't provoke an AoO.

Not quite. What he means is that you pick any of the squares that you threatened at the start of their turn(or you can just say that all squares in your reach are threatened). If the part that was in the threatened square leaves the threatened square(except by virtue of a 5 foot step), you get an AoO. A Large+ creature shouldn't bother going right up next to a Medium character anyway, considering they generally have superior reach. Unless they want to prevent withdrawal, but still, they also generally have superior land speed...

Nightblade
2007-08-14, 12:42 PM
Wow, thanks guys. I can't believe I overlooked some of that stuff in the PHB >_>;

So, according to the rules, if you ran through a gauntlet of monsters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/onewingedangel/sillycharge.jpg

Just to make sure I have this right:
You would incur at least eight AoOs, right?
And then, assuming Combat Reflexes and 14dex for all of them, and reach on the BBEQ... 25? Because of the moving in and out of squares and the reach?

Attilargh
2007-08-14, 12:44 PM
I've understood moving only provokes once per foe, so that'd still be "just" 8 AoO's.

Tyger
2007-08-14, 02:05 PM
Wow, thanks guys. I can't believe I overlooked some of that stuff in the PHB >_>;

So, according to the rules, if you ran through a gauntlet of monsters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/onewingedangel/sillycharge.jpg

Just to make sure I have this right:
You would incur at least eight AoOs, right?
And then, assuming Combat Reflexes and 14dex for all of them, and reach on the BBEQ... 25? Because of the moving in and out of squares and the reach?

Assuming the BBEG has reach, then that would be a total of 9 AoOs. 8 from the orcs (one each) for moving out of a threatened square, and one from the BBEG for moving past his threatened (due to his reach) square.

Note that Combat Reflexes does not mean that you get extra AoOs on move actions if they move through multiple threatened squares. As a general rule, movement will only cause one AoO. There are feats which change this, but its a good rule.

Now, if you attempted to sunder the BBEG's weapon at the end of your charge, that would incur a second AoO from the BBEG for a total of 10 AoOs.

DaMullet
2007-08-14, 02:16 PM
Assuming the BBEG has reach, then that would be a total of 9 AoOs. 8 from the orcs (one each) for moving out of a threatened square, and one from the BBEG for moving past his threatened (due to his reach) square.

Note that Combat Reflexes does not mean that you get extra AoOs on move actions if they move through multiple threatened squares. As a general rule, movement will only cause one AoO. There are feats which change this, but its a good rule.

Now, if you attempted to sunder the BBEG's weapon at the end of your charge, that would incur a second AoO from the BBEG for a total of 10 AoOs.
Unless you had Improved Sunder, of course, which I would imagine would be the only time one might try to sunder his weapon.

Tyger
2007-08-14, 02:19 PM
Yup, but this was about charges and AoOs, didn't want to bring the other stuff in to it. It gets more and more complicated the more feats you add. :)

Aquillion
2007-08-14, 02:28 PM
Wow, thanks guys. I can't believe I overlooked some of that stuff in the PHB >_>;

So, according to the rules, if you ran through a gauntlet of monsters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/onewingedangel/sillycharge.jpg

Just to make sure I have this right:
You would incur at least eight AoOs, right?
And then, assuming Combat Reflexes and 14dex for all of them, and reach on the BBEQ... 25? Because of the moving in and out of squares and the reach?I count only six AOOs, since you're not moving out of the threatened squares of the last two. I mean, you're stopping on the square with the arrowhead in it, correct?

kamikasei
2007-08-14, 02:32 PM
I count only six AOOs, since you're not moving out of the threatened squares of the last two. I mean, you're stopping on the square with the arrowhead in it, correct?

They threaten diagonally too, so you provoke an AoO when you move out of the square two away from the BBEG.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-14, 02:32 PM
8. Remember threatening functions diagonally as well.

Hannes
2007-08-14, 02:34 PM
No, since the last orcs get an AoO for you moving out of their NE/NW squares.

EDIT: Damn ninjaing!

Nightblade
2007-08-14, 02:57 PM
Don't you also provoke attacks of opportunity moving into threatened squares though? It does say that a move provokes an attack of opportunity (as per that helpful table on pg139) though.

And yeah, I realize where my mistake was. 25 AoOs would be a little... dastardly. I'm feeling an elite unit of spiked chain wielding hobgoblin fighters would be good back-up from the BBEG I'm planning on throwing a party against. Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip, and depending on what level they are, Hold The Line =]

Jasdoif
2007-08-14, 03:02 PM
Don't you also provoke attacks of opportunity moving into threatened squares though? It does say that a move provokes an attack of opportunity (as per that helpful table on pg139) though.No. Only two things normally provoke attacks of opportunity: Moving out of a threatened square, and performing a distracting action while in a threatened square.

As for the table, a move provokes an attack of opportunity when you're threatened, because the move is taking you out of the threatened square.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-14, 03:12 PM
No, it is possible to run up to someone without being stabbed. Leaving squares provokes, entering does not.

And as Attilargh noted, you can only provoke at most one AoO from each enemy because of this:

Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

Exarch
2007-08-14, 05:02 PM
I was always under the impression that you didn't produce AOOs from the creature you were charging (otherwise it'd be even more suicidal to charge as a Fighter/Barbarian/general meleeist because everything that's Large+ gets a free atack on you!), regardless of size and weapon. Isn't that what the feats, Stand Still and Hold the Line do for you?

Additionally, could you make an AoO with a reach weapon like a longspear, since you'd have to move from one square (threatened, in range), to a square (that isn't in range of the reach weapon/longspear since it's too close)?

Douglas
2007-08-14, 05:17 PM
Stand Still gives you another option for something to do with your AoO. Hold the Line gives you an AoO regardless of reach, and if you have both Hold the Line and a reach advantage (along with Combat Reflexes and enough dex) you get two AoOs against a charger.

The inability of reach weapons to threaten adjacent squares has no impact on the AoO granted when someone leaves your threatened square while closing with you. An AoO is resolved before the action that provokes it, so at the time you make the AoO your target is still considered to be in the square that he's leaving, where you can attack him with the reach weapon.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-14, 07:06 PM
Wow, thanks guys. I can't believe I overlooked some of that stuff in the PHB >_>;

So, according to the rules, if you ran through a gauntlet of monsters:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v37/onewingedangel/sillycharge.jpg

Just to make sure I have this right:
You would incur at least eight AoOs, right?
And then, assuming Combat Reflexes and 14dex for all of them, and reach on the BBEQ... 25? Because of the moving in and out of squares and the reach?
I count 19 opportunities, not that they all take them.
Step one: None
Step two: one from each of first orcs (2 total)
Step three: one from each of the first 4 orcs (6 total)
Step four: one from each of the first 6 orcs (12 total)
Step five: one from each of the LAST 6 orcs plus one reach from BBEG (19 total)
The first 6 orcs have at least 2 opportunities (so that is 12 attacks)
The last 2 orcs only have one shot and so does the BBEG so (3 more)
Total: 15 attacks could be made before you reach your target.

Of course, you might have something like Robilar's Gambit (I don't know the rules but I understand you get an AoO if you're attacked), plus great cleave. In which case, you might get hit, spawning an AoO cleave attack against the first two, hopefully dropping them, then moving on, getting hit again, more AoO's on your part more great cleavage, etc.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-14, 07:09 PM
Nope, as you don't provoke more than once for moving through a creature's threatened area.
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

Citizen Joe
2007-08-14, 07:12 PM
Ooh... didn't know that... learn something new every day. So, then only 9 AoO's

Jasdoif
2007-08-14, 08:33 PM
Ooh... didn't know that... learn something new every day.Don't worry, it's commonly overlooked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-14, 09:16 PM
It is possible to do that, by the way. You just need an additional feat (Hold The Line, CW 100) that makes charging provoke an additional attack of opportunity.

EDIT: Oh, and that means that your hypothetically charging buddy could have provoked a total of 18 AoO's.

EDIT EDIT: Unless you're doing something stupid like stopping adjacent to the BBEQ and quaffing a potion.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 11:51 PM
If memory serves, all Stand Still does is to prevent the opponent from moving any further if your AoO hits(normally, the AoO interrupts them, then they carry on).

Tyger
2007-08-15, 01:20 AM
It is possible to do that, by the way. You just need an additional feat (Hold The Line, CW 100) that makes charging provoke an additional attack of opportunity.

EDIT: Oh, and that means that your hypothetically charging buddy could have provoked a total of 18 AoO's.

EDIT EDIT: Unless you're doing something stupid like stopping adjacent to the BBEQ and quaffing a potion.

Actually, its unlikely that Hold the Line would give extra AoOs. What it states is that you get AoOs against people that enter squares you threaten, rather than just the normal exiting. The one AoO / one move action rules would still apply though, so you'd still only get one AoO.

Hold the Line is really for non-reach warriors who want to get an AoO against chargers. Outside of that, not a lot of value or difference.

Nightblade
2007-08-15, 04:56 AM
Hold the Line is really for non-reach warriors who want to get an AoO against chargers. Outside of that, not a lot of value or difference.

You would think that the two attacks happen simultaneously. Personally, Hold The Line should be a Spiked Chain Fighter's level 2 feat. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain, Combat Expertise, and Improved Trip at first level. At second level, you can trip chargers on their way in. Combine with Stand Still for a 10-ft radius of ass-kicking.

Attilargh
2007-08-15, 05:03 AM
And as Attilargh noted...
Yay, people are paying attention to me! :biggrin:

*ahem* Right, carry on, nothing to see here.

Matthew
2007-08-15, 07:10 AM
Don't worry, it's commonly overlooked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html).

Never noticed that guy only had a 15' Reach as well...

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-15, 12:37 PM
Never noticed that guy only had a 15' Reach as well...

Sort of odd, now that you mentioned it. Reach weapons always double your base reach, which meant that he should have had a 20' Reach.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-15, 12:40 PM
Clearly, a poor munchkin. Now, if he knew how, he could build a better one :smallbiggrin:. Just get Hold The Line, Karmic Strike, at higher levels Robilar's Gambit, etc. :smallbiggrin: