A variant of a variant to hit points

[tedcahill2]

So I'm creating a variant of a variant rule, the vitality system from UA. Under the UA version you make a fortitude save when you take damage. On a failure you take a hit, each hit you accumulate acts as a penalty against subsequent fortitude saves against damage, and on a failure of 10 or more you become disabled (effectively reduced to 0 hit points).

Now what I dislike about this is the use of the fortitude save. Instead of there being 5 grades of toughness (d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12 hit die) there are only 2, high/low.

So I decided to scale things a bit differently. I added a new Vitality stat to each stat block based on the hit die that class has.



Level
d4
d6
d8
d10
d12


1
+0
+0
+0
+0
+0


2
+0
+0
+0
+1
+1


3
+0
+0
+1
+1
+1


4
+0
+1
+1
+2
+2


5
+1
+1
+2
+2
+3


6
+1
+1
+2
+3
+3


7
+1
+2
+2
+3
+4


8
+1
+2
+3
+4
+4


9
+1
+2
+3
+4
+5


10
+2
+3
+4
+5
+6


11
+2
+3
+4
+5
+6


12
+2
+3
+4
+6
+7


13
+2
+3
+5
+6
+7


14
+2
+4
+5
+7
+8


15
+3
+4
+6
+7
+9


16
+3
+4
+6
+8
+9


17
+3
+5
+6
+8
+10


18
+3
+5
+7
+9
+10


19
+3
+5
+7
+9
+11


20
+4
+6
+8
+10
+12



Mathematically everyone gets X/20 vitality per level, where X is the size of their hit die. They add their constitution bonus to this, and according to the variant they gain a +1 bonus for every 5 temporary hit points they get (so a feat like toughness provides a +1 bonus) and a +1 bonus for every 5 points of DR they have (bonus negated if their DR is bypassed).

Likewise, assuming I have time to plan ahead, I convert monster hit dice to a vitality score based on this table as well. This generally produces scores that are lower that their fortitude score is.

Now we've only played with this variant for a couple of games now, but so far it's been working very well. I'm posting this because I'd love to get some feedback, critiques and opinions on things I should be looking out for as my players get to higher levels (they are currently level 2).

Some potential pit falls I'm anticipating, although I'm not sure what to do about it, is the barbarians DR. According to the variant having a single point of DR will give you a +1 bonus to vitality checks. But you won't get another +1 bonus until you have a DR of at least 6. Now for monsters this makes sense. Most monsters have a DR score of 5, 10, 15,or 20, which would translate to a +1, +2, +3, and +4 bonus to vitality checks. However a barbarians gets DR 1 up to DR 5. So he gets a +1 vitality at level 7, and then never gets enough DR to increase the bonus to vitality checks.

[Powerdork]

Honestly, just converting the class DR to a raw bonus to the saves should be well within reason. Liking what I'm seeing here.

[ATHATH]

Won't this make blasters (as in, spellcasters that cast damage spells) much more powerful than they should be? Heck, even just a Maximized Fireball could probably take out a level 20 Fighter in a single hit in this system.

[tedcahill2]

Honestly, just converting the class DR to a raw bonus to the saves should be well within reason. Liking what I'm seeing here.

Well I can see the logic behind the original design. The DC to save against injury is base 15, plus 1 per 5 damage taken per hit. DR 5 negates 5 damage thus, as a bonus, gives a +1 to vitality checks. Giving a +5 bonus to vitality would be far to much.

[tedcahill2]

Won't this make blasters (as in, spellcasters that cast damage spells) much more powerful than they should be? Heck, even just a Maximized Fireball could probably take out a level 20 Fighter in a single hit in this system.

I don't think so. Maximized fireball deals 60 damage at level 13 (level 10 for 10d6 but level 13 for 7th level spell slots). This converts to a Vitality check DC 27 (base 15 + (60*1/5)). A martial type of the same level has a base vitality check of +6 to +7 depending on their hit dice, plus lets say a +5 Con and some items that give another +2. So conservatively he has a +13 to +14 Vitality check.

If he rolls a 14+13 he'll meet the DC 27 save DC and not be "damaged" by the fireball at all. On a roll of 5-13+13 he'd take 1 hit. On a roll of 1 to 4 he'd fail by 10 or more, thus reducing him to this variants version of 0 HP.

[ATHATH]

I don't think so. Maximized fireball deals 60 damage at level 13 (level 10 for 10d6 but level 13 for 7th level spell slots). This converts to a Vitality check DC 27 (base 15 + (60*1/5)). A martial type of the same level has a base vitality check of +6 to +7 depending on their hit dice, plus lets say a +5 Con and some items that give another +2. So conservatively he has a +13 to +14 Vitality check.

If he rolls a 14+13 he'll meet the DC 27 save DC and not be "damaged" by the fireball at all. On a roll of 5-13+13 he'd take 1 hit. On a roll of 1 to 4 he'd fail by 10 or more, thus reducing him to this variants version of 0 HP.
Oh, I thought that the save DC was equal to the amount of damage received. Never mind, then.

[Powerdork]

Well I can see the logic behind the original design. The DC to save against injury is base 15, plus 1 per 5 damage taken per hit. DR 5 negates 5 damage thus, as a bonus, gives a +1 to vitality checks. Giving a +5 bonus to vitality would be far to much.

The way the conversion of hit points to saving throws works, a barbarian who takes 7 magic arrows, instead of taking 7 instances of, say, 3-10 damage which are reduced by DR/— as appropriate (effectively gaining hit points for each attack taken, as the attack is taken), now risks taking hits, or even dying, seven times, and giving the barbarian a bonus to special Injury saves is only as good as giving them that many extra hit points times five.
If a barbarian is hit by 30 attacks in a day (very active), which would they rather have? 30 cases where DR 4 applies (up to 120 virtual hit points that don't need to be healed), or about 2 cases where the +1 bonus from the converted DR makes a difference on the save result? Even with the way taking a hit snowballs later saves, let's say... ten attacks in, the converted DR is responsible for a hit being blocked. The impact it has on 20 later saves is effectively worth about 5 damage per, so 100 damage, let's call it, plus 50 if the barbarian also fails the 20th save because of that converted DR. But we can't be sure this mythical roll will happen, because it's based on die rolls rather than a raw trade of damage to hit points. On the 11th save, and having accumulated a few Hits already, the barbarian nat1s and drops to disabled anyway. It's a struggle to make +1s to d20s feel meaningful.

Anyway, my new suggestion is increasing the save bonus from converted barbarian DR by one at levels 13 and 19, to +2 and +3 respectively, so it doesn't feel like a lost feature.

[SangoProduction]

I would personally have it so effects that improve/hurt fortitude saves (such as Great Fortitude) also +/- vitality saves.

[tedcahill2]

I would personally have it so effects that improve/hurt fortitude saves (such as Great Fortitude) also +/- vitality saves.

This is actually the exact reason I didn't just use fortitude saves for the vitality checks. It's far too easy to pump up a saving throw.

In this regard though the toughness feat can be taken to gain a +1 bonus to vitality, and you can take it numerous times as usual (this is made a little more useful by the fact that I also house ruled that feats are gained at every odd level).

[ATHATH]

I'd just like to point out that this variant makes cantrips like Sonic Snap (which deals at least one point of sonic damage regardless of the result of the saving throw against it) much more powerful than they normally would be (at low levels, at least).

[ExLibrisMortis]

My biggest problem with the Injury system (it's not the Vitality system that you are modifying) is that you have a 5% chance to die on any hit. Easy to fix, so let's ignore that for now.

Essentially, you get hardness 1d20+VIT*5, you only ever take 1 damage per hit, except that massive damage is instadeath (fail save by 10 = take 50 damage or more).



An ECL 20 PC can normally take about 2-4 attacks of 75 damage per hit. That's equivalent to a DC 30 save.
At ECL 20, you should have a vitality save bonus of 15-30: 4-12 from class, 4-8 from CON, 5 from a cloak of not dying, 0-5 from DR/temp hp/whatever.

The low end has a 25% chance of dying per hit, but it takes only +5 to get out of the danger zone. Vitality optimization is probably a really good thing.
The high end has a 5% chance of taking any hit at all, and needs to take several hits to get into the danger zone. Further vitality optimization is only useful in the case of critical hits (better countered with fortification) and unusually high-hitting monsters.

Unless your monsters are much more damaging than MM1 defaults, I'd expect your barbarians to be really hard to kill with pure damage.
As usual, casters are plenty happy. A psion could burn 20 pp on vigour and get a +20 bonus to vitality saves for 1 min/level, which amounts to invulnerability to anything less than X+100 damage per hit, where X is the amount of damage you didn't care about before vigour.
Low-con straight rogue is probably the squishiest, but then it already is.


Critical hits are more dangerous.
With 200 hp, you can take two hits of 75 damage each as easily as a single hit of 150 damage. You'll be in exactly the same shape afterwards: unable to take another hit.
With a +25 vitality save, you can't die from two 75-damage attacks. However, there's a 45% chance of dying from a single 150 damage hit. With the two hits, you can take at least three, possibly five more injuries (before risk of dying applies), depending on whether you made those two saves. If you survive the crit, you're about as well-off: you can take at least four more injuries, before risk of dying applies.

I feel that successful saves against critical hits are more boring than non-killing criticals with regular hp. Maybe crits should count as two injuries (or injuries = crit mod). Not sure whether you'd want to adjust the save increase from critical damage as well. Especially for x3 and x4 two-handed weapons, the DCs are simply unbeatable, but then the damage would usually be a one-shot too, so it's not a real issue.

Abilities like Decisive Strike are probably nicer under this system, because once you have enough damage to get past the basic bonuses (HD, average CON, average DR), it's quite hard to get +VIT very high.

[tedcahill2]

My biggest problem with the Injury system (it's not the Vitality system that you are modifying) is that you have a 5% chance to die on any hit. Easy to fix, so let's ignore that for now.

You don't die when you fail by 10 or more. You become disabled. It's much easier to become disabled in this system but hard to actually die. For example, when you are dying you make a save against injury each turn. If you roll 10 over the DC you are not only stable but conscious.

We're playing in a game setting based roughly on the state of the world and technology of Europe in the 1600s. So flintlock firearms are common place. I homebrewed my guns to deal between 2d6 and 2d10 damage depending on the type and quality, so I couldn't in good conscious have a level 1 wizard running around and risking being killed by barely more than average damage on a gun. As real as that may seem, it's not fun.

So the injury system provided me a solid way to keep the damage on guns, so that feel impactful, without many inst-deaths from them. Instead, a wizard would almost certainly take a hit, if not be disabled, but it wouldn't outright kill him. At the end of the day that's better for the game.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You don't die when you fail by 10 or more. You become disabled. It's much easier to become disabled in this system but hard to actually die. For example, when you are dying you make a save against injury each turn. If you roll 10 over the DC you are not only stable but conscious.
Good point, I did not notice that. It takes at least two hits to put someone to "dying", or three to kill them outright, regardless of the damage dealt. I suppose that's a massive nerf to single-strike überchargers, but not a big deal otherwise.