Better (?) Witch Bolt

[Hyde]

There have been a few threads on the subject, and I don't think mine is terribly new.

Witch Bolt
1st level Evocation
Casting Time: 1 Action
Range: 30 ft
Components: V,S,M
Duration: 1 minute

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out towards a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target. Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration as long as the target is in range, you can use your bonus action to make an additional ranged spell attack against the same creature. On a hit, these subsequent attacks deal 1d12 lightning damage.
At higher levels: When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each level above first.

Summary of changes:
Concentration requirement removed
Subsequent attacks are a bonus action
Subsequent attacks are attacks
changed "range" requirement to not suck.

I didn't want to increase the subsequent damage and basically make it "sort of just spiritual weapon". I feel like this more or less keeps the spell flavor intact, while also maybe providing incentives to keep it around past 5th level. It's worth noting that, because the subsequent attacks are attacks, they would proc Hex and such. (which you could have active at the same time, because you're not wasting your life on witch bolt)

thoughts?

[Sidson]

In my opinion, you ruined it. The power of this spell was to give Warlock (who has very limited spells per rest counter) an autohit spell for even 10 subsequent rounds while still damaging for 1d12 and being able to move... while concentrating. Without concentration there is no ending condition other than going out of spell range, because spell concentration is absent. Changing from action to bonus action allows to stack other witch bolt on top of this one, both not requiring concentration.

[Jerrykhor]

In my opinion, you ruined it. The power of this spell was to give Warlock (who has very limited spells per rest counter) an autohit spell for even 10 subsequent rounds while still damaging for 1d12 and being able to move... while concentrating. Without concentration there is no ending condition other than going out of spell range, because spell concentration is absent. Changing from action to bonus action allows to stack other witch bolt on top of this one, both not requiring concentration.

Its trash for warlock, its trash for just about everyone, because its simply trash. Warlocks have Hex, and even before 5th level, 1d10+1d6 at 120ft is better than 1d12 at 30ft. You are a nice, squishy target for all your enemies at 30ft, so you won't last long. There is no power in this spell. Its a trap, on the same level as True Strike.

[Sidson]

Its trash for warlock, its trash for just about everyone, because its simply trash. Warlocks have Hex, and even before 5th level, 1d10+1d6 at 120ft is better than 1d12 at 30ft. You are a nice, squishy target for all your enemies at 30ft, so you won't last long.
I disagree. When combined with melee fighter who control the movement of enemies, steady, autohiting 1d12 is awesome.

But even if not that awesome, OP's change makes it too powerful when it loses concentration.

[Hyde]

Hmm, I'm fairly comfortable with those circumstances being the case. I can't conceive of a world where 1d12 is worth the concentration spot.

[90sMusic]

Yeah Witch Bolt is awful, just awful.

It is a spell warlocks only take when they just don't know any better.

The problem is the damage on subsequent hits doesn't scale up.

The concentration and using your action to deal that damage per round is consistent with other powers, like call lightning.

But what sucks is the damage doesn't increase except on the first tick. So doing that 2d12 at level 3 is nice, doing 3d12 at level 5 is nice, but having it bump down to 1d12 on subsequent rounds makes it pointless to maintain concentration on such a trash ability, you're better off casting something else.

Hex, for instance, doing its 1d6 extra damage on hits will do 2d6 per round when coupled with eldritch blast at 5th level, on top of the 2d10 eldritch blast is already doing. Why waste concentration and a spell slot on witch bolt when you can get more than double the damage out of just using hex + eldritch blast?

Hex is ALWAYS the better choice. The closest spell you can compare this travesty to is Call Lightning because it also uses concentration and uses your action each round to deal damage.

But call Lightning is also superior in every way... It lasts TEN minutes... Every bolt of lightning scales with spell slot, so 3d10 baseline and 1d10 for each additional spell slot. The lightning bolts can also cause AOE damage. And if it's already stormy outside, it does another 1d10. Witch Bolt ends if you use your action to do anything else, Call Lightning does not. You also have to make a successful ranged attack on the initial cast, otherwise you just waste the spell to no effect. Call Lightning, if you miss that first strike, it doesn't matter, you can still keep it rolling anyway. Call Lightning also is a dex save meaning even if the target saves every time, they still take half damage while Witch Bolt is an all-or-nothing ranged spell attack.

Call Lightning may be a third level spell, but that largely just governs it's damage, and witch bolt cast at 3rd level only increases in damage and gains no other benefits or bonuses, it still sucks even if cast at 9th level.

I think simply making the extra damage per spell slot carry over would go a long way toward helping witch bolt, but it's still pretty ****ty.

[Tanarii]

Its trash for warlock, its trash for just about everyone, because its simply trash. Warlocks have Hex, and even before 5th level, 1d10+1d6 at 120ft is better than 1d12 at 30ft. You are a nice, squishy target for all your enemies at 30ft, so you won't last long. There is no power in this spell. Its a trap, on the same level as True Strike.
Point of order, 1d12 is greater DPR than HitChance*(1d10+1d6) when hit chance drops below 72%. Since the 'normal' chance to hit is usually 60%-65%, it's normally going to be greater DPR. (Edit: oops, that's not what you said. You said it's better at 120ft. Not that its higher DPR.)

That doesn't mean it's not a bad spell anyway. A 1st level slot for maybe +1 DPR / round, they must stay in 30ft, and uses concentration? Terrible. Might be marginal if you don't have Hex (like Sorcs or Wizards and even some Warlocks), have a strong front line, are invading an rather enclosed space, have all exits , and up against a BBEG.

But I've almost never seen Players who choose this spell use it more than once. Some never use it at all before swapping it out. (Mostly wizards that overloaded on Boom spells)

I have to wonder how Witch Bolt and True Strike made it out of play testing. It honestly doesn't just seem to be a case of Internet or Forum groupthink. They really are incredibly bad.

[Jerrykhor]

Point of order, 1d12 is greater DPR than HitChance*(1d10+1d6) when hit chance drops below 72%. Since the 'normal' chance to hit is usually 60%-65%, it's normally going to be greater DPR. (Edit: oops, that's not what you said. You said it's better at 120ft. Not that its higher DPR.)

That doesn't mean it's not a bad spell anyway. A 1st level slot for maybe +1 DPR / round, they must stay in 30ft, and uses concentration? Terrible. Might be marginal if you don't have Hex (like Sorcs or Wizards and even some Warlocks), have a strong front line, are invading an rather enclosed space, have all exits , and up against a BBEG.

But I've almost never seen Players who choose this spell use it more than once. Some never use it at all before swapping it out. (Mostly wizards that overloaded on Boom spells)

I have to wonder how Witch Bolt and True Strike made it out of play testing. It honestly doesn't just seem to be a case of Internet or Forum groupthink. They really are incredibly bad.
I wouldn't look at it that way. The thing about 'hit chance' is it depends on the target's AC right? Well if I know the target has high AC, I wouldnt want to risk wasting my spell slot on missing the first attack roll of Witchbolt. Hex cannot miss, and can be transferred to other targets if the target dies.

The thing about Witchbolt is, it sounds great against a target with large HP pool, will not leave 30 ft of you, will not take cover, will not attack you, and you can safely spend your action every turn to maintain it. If you have a fight like that, your DM does not know how to make combat interesting or challenging, and really, anything else would work as effectively.

[Tanarii]

What if you could just choose a new target every round, and it didn't end if the initial attack missed? Keep concentration, keep range 30ft, does auto damage?

Makes it a dangerous minion popper/finisher, and really nasty against high AC targets after the initial attack. Primarily useful to Sorcs/Wizards, but still only levels 1-4, but at least not a good chance of it being flat out wasted.

[8wGremlin]

what if it was a scaling cantrip...

[Malifice]

Just make the initial and secondary damage scale with spell level.

[DarkKnightJin]

what if it was a scaling cantrip...

At this point, that'd make it infinitely more useful.
Though I'd suggest dropping it to a d10 in that case, maybe even a d8 if playtesting has it seem too strong as a cantrip.
I kinda wanna try this out now, see how well it goes.

[Zorku]

Honestly at this point I'm thinking that witch bolt should apply a status or apply some kind of limit on movement rather than try to compete with EB+Hex.

[Waffle_Iron]

What if you could just choose a new target every round, and it didn't end if the initial attack missed? Keep concentration, keep range 30ft, does auto damage?

Makes it a dangerous minion popper/finisher, and really nasty against high AC targets after the initial attack. Primarily useful to Sorcs/Wizards, but still only levels 1-4, but at least not a good chance of it being flat out wasted.

OLD VERSION
Witch Bolt

Evocation

Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target.
Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell’s range or if it has total cover from you.

At higher level

When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.

NEW VERSION

Witch Bolt

Evocation

Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target.
Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage. On each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to a target in range automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else.

At higher level

When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.




Daaaaaang. Such a simple change, and now the spell is useful.
I'm definitely going to field test this version at my table, and report back.
(spell level)d12 attack, + 9d12 auto damage. Nice.

[Zman]

Just make the initial and secondary damage scale with spell level.

Malifice, isn't it still a pretty bad 1st level spell? I mean, its range is terrible, it requires a to hit roll, a d12 damage with those limits is pretty terrible and its potential to waste your actions for another d12 isn't good at all.

I suggest making the initial 2d12 and letting both scale with level. That way it does god damage, requires an attack roll, but has short range. Compare it to a Magic Missile's guarenteed damage, or a burning hands Aoe with save for half, or the better range and comparable damage with no secondary for chromatic orb. Feels about right to me.

[EvilAnagram]

Witch Bolt is not as bad as people give it crap for. That said, it's useless after level 5.

[Aett_Thorn]

Witch Bolt is not as bad as people give it crap for. That said, it's useless after level 5.

It's bad after level 5 if your DM works with you on it, but it's near useless if your DM uses a bit of meta-knowledge to render it ineffective before that. Because the range is so limited, the enemy that you've applied it to can just walk away. As soon as they are more than 30 feet away from the caster, the spell ends. And it's not like that wouldn't be a sensible course of action for most enemies, since they can see the caster and the bolt of lightning between them.

[Hyde]

While I don't disagree that upping the secondary damage is a possible and valid solution, I don't personally like it because it takes the spell in a direction we've already gone, namely with Spiritual Weapon and similar.

I though about the fix presented above, where one can simply target anything in range, but it just isn't the "sustained arc" described in the text. I think it's probably a fine fix, but it solves a "problem" I'm not looking to solve- that the spell is single-target.

I like the flavor of the spell- a persistent and sustained arc of lightning, and I'd like to preserve it as much as possible- frankly, my design of making attack rolls for the subsequent arcs is still pushing it.

Yes, I realize I basically just typed, "My goal was to redesign the spell without changing its fluff or its crunch significantly."

Hmm, a lot of people, myself included, are super quick to axe the bit about if the target moving out of range or line of sight. What if instead we gave the arc an opportunity to jump to another target in range? That would be both cool and not as detrimental.

Actually yeah... Okay so, hear me out on this. I'm on mobile, so forgive me for not reproducing the spell or formatting, but what if we replaced the relevant lines with, "if the current (pun intended) target moves out of range or line of sight, make a ranged spell attack roll against another enemy within range. If it hits, the new target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and becomes the target of the spell." I would then modify the "at higher levels" rider to increase this secondary "initial" attacks damage as well.

Why: this change makes the spell more dynamic, with consequences for the creature looking to avoid damage. It requires a more coordinated effort than just "lol spell ends now" and doesn't rely on other party members to hold down monsters to be effective. (While presented independently, I would make all bonus damage still just a bonus action. This version might almost squeak into being worth the concentration spot, especially for non-warlocks)

As an aside and to an earlier point that's been bugging me- I've seen it mentioned several times across this and similar threads that the spell is super powerful as-is as long as you have a fighter buddy to hold the victim down.

I'm not going to argue that specific point, but that seems like one heck of a boring encounter, especially for your fighter.

[Jerrykhor]

As an aside and to an earlier point that's been bugging me- I've seen it mentioned several times across this and similar threads that the spell is super powerful as-is as long as you have a fighter buddy to hold the victim down.

I'm not going to argue that specific point, but that seems like one heck of a boring encounter, especially for your fighter.

The stupidity of people never ceases to amaze me. You cast Witchbolt because you want to deal damage, right? But you tell your Fighter to sacrifice his damage (that is most likely better than yours) so that you can increase yours?? I think the overall is a net decrease in total damage.

Not to mention Hex actually helps the Fighter win grapples while Witchbolt does not.

Look, Witchbolt is clearly and objectively, and those who defend it just don't have a clue. Nothing is stopping you from picking it, but don't deny that it is not rubbish. I don't know what D&D combat you've been playing, but mine is usually unpredictable, with situations constantly changing due to creatures moving, new creatures appearing, creatures using special abilities, etc. Even more so in boss fights, which most people seem to think Witchbolt is good for. You won't have the luxury of simply standing around using your action every round to deal piddly damage. Even if you manage to do that, do you think you contributed to the fight? Adapt or die.

[Garret Dorigan]

I haven't done the math on the changes, but I've gotten some thumbs up from my group for changing it to the following.

Witch Bolt

Evocation

Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 50 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, up to 4 rounds

A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target.
Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and as a secondary effect on each of your turns for the duration, you can use a bonus action to deal 1d12 lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell effect ends if the target is ever outside the spell’s range or if it has total cover from you. If the target drops to 0 hit points or the spell effect ends before the end of the spell's duration, you can use an action on a turn of yours to target a new creature for the secondary effect.

At higher level:

When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the duration increases by 1 round for each slot level above 1st.

My edits in bold.
Basically, a bit more restrictive, and less useful, but more damaging version of Hex. Turns it into a much more Gish friendly spell, overall.

Though if someone wants to do the math on it it'd be nice to see.

[mer.c]

One of my players had an Air Genasi Sorcerer PC who used it for thematic reasons, and damned if I didn't try out a lot of ways of making that not suck for her.

I found that letting the persistent damage scale up at the same rate as the main hit with spell level overpowers it at some breakpoints. Same with making the persistent damage a bonus action for 1d12. But IMO it's better balanced if you decrease the persistent damage (say to 1d6 or 1d4) and make it a bonus action. Other knobs you can tweak include allowing for Con saves on the persistent damage or allowing it to transfer between enemies.

Of course it still relies on the DM not playing to nullify it, depending on your environment. Although the enemy transfer helps alleviate that.

[Rebonack]

My big issue with Witchbolt is that the thing is about on par with a cantrip as written. Firebolt deals one less damage per round and offers four times the range. Sure, you need to make attacks on subsequent turns, but that does NOT make up for using concentration or burning a spell slot. An AC targeting cantrip that deals 1d12 damage at 30' range would be a pretty solid choice, really. A nice damage type alternative to firebolt if you're focusing on blasting.

Now, if we actually want it to compete with other level 1 spells, it clearly needs a bit more oomph to it. Just making the secondary damage scale is pretty bland and it doesn't solve the issue of folks simply walking away. So how about adding the Grappled condition as well? At the beginning of each turn, the target gets to make a Con save to shake off the Restrained condition. If they make the save, they get to freely walk around as normal and can move out of range to end the spell. But if it comes back to your turn again, they are once more Grappled so long as they are still within 30 feet.

This would make it a pretty solid tool. It would lack the flexibility of chromatic orb and the sure-hit property of magic missile, but I think being able to immobilize a target via agony just like Palpatine would be pretty neat. It gives it an actual reason to exist.

[dejarnjc]

The spell is crap as it is now and I haven't seen a truly satisfying fix TBH. Letting the damage scale w/ spell level kind of works I guess.


I'd love it instead though if someone found a balanced way to make the damage be cumulative. That would make for a very interesting spell. Probably next to impossible to balance though.

Sooooooo

Witch Bolt

Evocation

Level: 1
Casting time: 1 Action
Range: 15 feet
Components: V, S, M (a twig from a tree that has been struck by lightning)
Duration: Concentration, Initial round + # of rounds per spell level
A beam of crackling, blue energy lances out toward a creature within range, forming a sustained arc of lightning between you and the target.
Make a ranged spell attack against that creature. On a hit, the target takes 1d12 lightning damage, and on each of your turns for the duration, you can use your action to deal the initial damage + 1d12 x the number of rounds concentrating on the spell lightning damage to the target automatically. The spell ends if you use your action to do anything else. The spell also ends if the target is ever outside the spell’s range or if it has total cover from you.

At higher level

When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the initial damage increases by 1d12 for each slot level above 1st.




*OK, this makes the math way too fiddly and complicated for most players and it isn't balanced in the slightest but I think the concept would be kinda cool :smalltongue:

[Lombra]

Honestly, making it require a bonus action to sustain the damage may make everyone happy, keeping concentration, and maybe be a bonus action only if cast at level 3 or higher or something like that. Eats concentration but allows for your action, it becomes appealing to eldritch knights, and pretty much everyone.

[Deleted]

With how the senate uses this spell, it should at the very least immobilized a target on a hit (and each hit afterwards).

I mean, Luke was pretty darn immobilized.