CR Of PCs

[JNAProductions]

So I ran some math, with some help from a buddy, and found that a Level 10 PC (specifically, a Champion Fighter, full plate, GWF and Defensive, full plate, greatsword, stats of 20 8 16 8 16 8, and Resilient (Wis) and GWM) comes out to be about CR 5 or 6. He's usually better off NOT swinging with GWM on, and in fact, taking that away and adding 2 to Con could bump him up to a solid CR 6.

I'm interested in both getting my math double-checked, and seeing what CRs various other builds would be, at various levels.

[UrielAwakened]

Experience-budget wise, a level 20 5e PC is about the equivalent of a CR 12 monster, so I'd say your math works.

It's an interesting exercise: Compare your actual numbers to that of the equivalent CR monster and see whether you are better or worse than average.

[Nidgit]

The best rule of thumb I've seen is that martial characters' CRs are 1/3-1/2 of their level, and full casters are 1/2-2/3 their level.

[JNAProductions]

The best rule of thumb I've seen is that martial characters' CRs are 1/3-1/2 of their level, and full casters are 1/2-2/3 their level.

Have you done the numbers on these? I haven't on most things, but it seems to me that casters might be balanced out by being glass.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The issue (for me) is that the CR calculations are for monsters facing PCs. The builds and roles are counterparts--PCs have nova abilities + (relatively) low health; they're supposed to go through many fights in a day. Monsters have (generally) higher health and lower/more constant DPR to avoid rocket tag and to allow them to survive to be useful. So using the CR calculations for straight PC-classed creatures gets squiffy and may not be a true comparison.

PCs will have very high offensive CR and very low defensive CR, even the tankier types; enough so that the straight average doesn't represent their true threat. PC-classed monsters vs PCs tends to end up in rocket tag, something I find quite un-fun personally.

Frankly, if I want an NPC to have class levels, I'll add iconic class/sub-class abilities onto an NPC chassis that I've refluffed. Easier, less risk of TPK/walk-over, and gets the important parts. Only party-member NPCs that I expect to be there for a while get actual character sheets, and then I keep them 1 or more levels below the average of the group.

[UrielAwakened]

Most MM monsters are also built like glass cannons. They trend towards 1 or 2 CR above baseline offensively and 1 to 2 below defensively.

[Nidgit]

Have you done the numbers on these? I haven't on most things, but it seems to me that casters might be balanced out by being glass.
There's obviously some variation based on how optimally built the PC is, and PCs tend to benefit from allies much more than monsters. But a caster utilizing defensive spells and keeping some distance can sometimes be a lot harder to kill than a martial of the same level. That's particularly true once they have access to higher level spells.

[Armored Walrus]

There's obviously some variation based on how optimally built the PC is, and PCs tend to benefit from allies much more than monsters. But a caster utilizing defensive spells and keeping some distance can sometimes be a lot harder to kill than a martial of the same level. That's particularly true once they have access to higher level spells.

That's a weird way to spell "no". :P

This does make me want to take that theoretical 10th level fighter in the OP and run a mock battle, solo, against a CR5 critter and see how it turns out, though.

[Dudewithknives]

Have you done the numbers on these? I haven't on most things, but it seems to me that casters might be balanced out by being glass.

That is a misconception.

Casters are not glass anymore, not with reaction based defenses that start at level 1.

Also, CR is not calculated based on having to save resources for an entire day, CR is calculated based on what you can do in 1 fight, if you have all of your resources.

Ex. The CR of a wizard would be calculated as if they had all their spells ready and are going to blow them in this fight as much as possible. That makes them MUCH tougher than any PC wizard who has to watch their spending.

Further EX:

Say you have a group of your basic 4 characters: Rogue, Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, that are all level 11.
They open the door to the boss's chamber in the dungeon and see a level 18 fighter across the room, with his longsword and shield. It may take a few turns but that fighter is going to die. He may take one of you with him if you do not use proper tactics.
They open the door and see a level 18 Wizard, oh well, make new characters. It might make you feel better to roll some dice, but it won't matter, you are all going to die.

This does change slightly depending on the level of the people vs level of the enemy. A group of 4 level 5 characters could beat a level 11 wizard, but it will be close.

[Tanarii]

Say you have a group of your basic 4 characters: Rogue, Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, that are all level 11.
They open the door to the boss's chamber in the dungeon and see a level 18 fighter across the room, with his longsword and shield. It may take a few turns but that fighter is going to die. He may take one of you with him if you do not use proper tactics.
They open the door and see a level 18 Wizard, oh well, make new characters. It might make you feel better to roll some dice, but it won't matter, you are all going to die. Isn't an Archmage CR 12?
Edit: and gets d8 HD to boot. Seems the creators of the game think that'd be a medium or hard encounter for the party you list. They should be able to handle 4-6 of them with two short rests.

[MrStabby]

Isn't an Archmage CR 12?
Edit: and gets d8 HD to boot. Seems the creators of the game think that'd be a medium or hard encounter for the party you list. They should be able to handle 4-6 of them with two short rests.

Well some of it is spell selection. Meteor swarm can wreak havoc on a party. This is even discounting things like true polymorph.

[PhoenixPhyre]

That is a misconception.

Casters are not glass anymore, not with reaction based defenses that start at level 1.

Also, CR is not calculated based on having to save resources for an entire day, CR is calculated based on what you can do in 1 fight, if you have all of your resources.

Ex. The CR of a wizard would be calculated as if they had all their spells ready and are going to blow them in this fight as much as possible. That makes them MUCH tougher than any PC wizard who has to watch their spending.

Further EX:

Say you have a group of your basic 4 characters: Rogue, Fighter, Cleric, Wizard, that are all level 11.
They open the door to the boss's chamber in the dungeon and see a level 18 fighter across the room, with his longsword and shield. It may take a few turns but that fighter is going to die. He may take one of you with him if you do not use proper tactics.
They open the door and see a level 18 Wizard, oh well, make new characters. It might make you feel better to roll some dice, but it won't matter, you are all going to die.

This does change slightly depending on the level of the people vs level of the enemy. A group of 4 level 5 characters could beat a level 11 wizard, but it will be close.

Unless the DM had meta-gamed (or the party had given the wizard plenty of warning), I would expect a level 18 wizard to die pretty quickly. Action economy is king in this edition. Even a "hard" (by CR) fight against a solo tends to be anticlimactic unless the solo monster has some way of acting off-turn (legendary or lair actions). And that wizard doesn't even have legendary resistances--one good hold person and he's toast on a stick. This isn't 3.5e where save-or-dies were a major thing. He can meteor swarm (which caps at 40d6 on a failed save, of which the rogue will take at most half and probably none), which unless the boss's chamber is huge (80' diameter is big for an indoor area) he'll eat as well (probably dying to that). Wish isn't great for this particular purpose, since meteor swarm is about the best bet to nuke the whole party. If the party gets to go, the wizard is probably in trouble. A level 18 wizard has ~110 HP and a low-ish AC--that's about 2 combat rounds for the fighter alone. The party wizard can counterspell and have a non-terrible chance of killing that 9th level spell entirely.

[Dudewithknives]

Isn't an Archmage CR 12?
Edit: and gets d8 HD to boot. Seems the creators of the game think that'd be a medium or hard encounter for the party you list. They should be able to handle 4-6 of them with two short rests.

That is because the npcs designed by WOTC almost never have the spells any pc would have picked, nor do they have archetype bonuses, and usually do not have a build of stats like a pc would.