Monster Manual V (Yay or Boo?)

[Zeta Kai]

So I'm considering a new book purchase, & since MMV is at the top of my list, & has been out long enough for people to read it through, I wanted to get your opinions on it. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it balanced? Is it broken? What do you think?

EDIT: This is strictly a MMV discussion thread. Opinions on other/better books are irrelevent. Thank you for your restraint.

[kingpain]

Lets see, I'm a DM and Monster Manuals are kinda my thing, but I'd have to go with...meh...

[DraPrime]

An idiot person I know bought it. I flipped through it and was pretty disappointed. Not worth the money. If you want a bunch of monsters just go to the homebrew forums. There's bound to be good monsters there for free. A much better deal than what WotC gives you.

[Kurald Galain]

I second the "Boo"s above. After you've learned the basic monster stuff as a DM, you should really consider making up your own, it's not that hard. The ideas in the first few MM books are useful, those in the later books are just plain weird.

[Were-Sandwich]

Monster books in general are a waste of money.

[Dausuul]

Monster books in general are a waste of money.

That's a matter of opinion... and I would venture to suggest that it is not in fact the OP's opinion, otherwise this thread wouldn't exist.

I second the OP's question, as I also have been debating whether to get MMV. I can't speak for Zeta Kai, but here are my concerns:

When I buy a Monster Manual, I'm looking for a variety of interesting and different monsters that I can easily drop into an ongoing game, in a convenient format requiring a minimum of thought on my part. I'm perfectly capable of homebrewing my own monsters and often do so, but a lot of the time (like when my players do something random and go someplace I didn't expect) I just need a suitable opponent of a particular CR and don't want to spend a lot of time statting one out or hunting on the web. I like the MMs because I can flip them open right at the gaming table and find a critter there all specced out for use. They're also handy for inspiration.

What I want from a Monster Manual:

1. Variety. I want a bunch of different monsters suitable for use in different scenarios. I don't want large amounts of space devoted to scenario-specific monsters *cough*spawnoftiamat*cough* or to monsters with very specialized utility; I want stuff that I can easily plug in when I need a random beast for the PCs to fight.
2. Clarity and economy. Some monsters, particularly in the older books, require a lot of bookkeeping and preparation to run in combat. If I'm putting that kind of work in, I may as well homebrew the damn thing. Again, I'm looking for "plug-and-play" monsters where I can scan the stat block and maybe a paragraph on tactics and know just how to use it in battle.
3. Innovation. Monsters need new and different abilities, to keep the game fresh and interesting. If every monster is essentially a rehash of something that came before, it's that much harder to keep players on their toes.
4. Value. Not to be crude about it, but if I'm shelling out thirty-five dollars for a monster book, I want a decent array of monsters for my money.

So: How does MMV stack up to other Monster Manuals? If you believe, as I do and as the OP presumably does, that there is such a thing as a Monster Manual that's worth buying, does the MMV qualify? If so, why? If not, why not?

[Arbitrarity]

MM-V:Thoughts (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51589&) The previous thread on this topic, in some respects.

[Charity]

Unless that V stands for Vorpal Tribble it's a big thumbs down from me... though I'm not a big purchaser of books anyway.

[AKA_Bait]

I actually liked it quite a bit. There were a few new evil fey, the lack of which was getting on my nerves and there is quite a large number of campagin useful stuff.

There were a few cool critters but much of the benifit was in the fluff, which was better than the other MM's in my opinion.

It's not the best MM, I'd think I or III for that, but it's a solid resource.

[Merlin the Tuna]

<Nailing his theses to the door>Response to the book has generally been positive; while I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, the reading I've done has shown a pretty good response from the community. I'd also advise you two read the two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070727a) articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070803a) that WotC has posted regarding development of MMV. I've always found the Design and Development articles to be among the most useful on the site, and these I'd say are no exception.

[Fax Celestis]

I liked it.

[Inyssius Tor]

I liked it a lot.

Dausuul: I personally thought that it satisfied all of those requirements (clunky updated stat-blocks aside, it's one of a very small set of books which I have purchased, with money).

[Neon Knight]

it's one of a very small set of books which I have purchased, with money).

What did you purchase the others with? Souls?

Jokes aside, MMV is worth every penny.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Sorry, don't mean to derail the thread, but is the MM III any good? I've looked through V and IV, but I've never looked through III, and now I can't find it anymore.

[Chunklets]

I started out irritated with myself for spending money on MMV, but the more I looked through it, the more I found things I can use as a DM (I must say, I went through much the same process with MMIV). At this point, I would cautiously recommend it.

@^: I quite like MMIII - there are some neat critters in there!

[Gralamin]

MMV is defiantly worth the money in my opinion. It has many neat things, Xorvinaal and Thoonites just being some of the cooler stuff.

[Jack Mann]

Obviously, those who don't like monster manuals aren't going to like this one. But for those of us who love 'em, it's well worth the money. It's a huge improvement over the crap MM IV.

[Goober4473]

MMV has a lot of cool ideas in it. Most of the monsters have abilities that aren't just the same thing with a new name or new flavor, but really something new.

I would have just waited until someone had a PDF, but it's good enough, and I had a gift certificate, so I bought it.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I lika it a whole lot. Thoon!

It makes the evil little centers of my brain tingle with glee just looking at it because I'm not good at homebrewing. Thoon! I tend to think more as a player then I do as a DM in general so monsters end up as monsters with class levels and after enough complaints from PC's that their tired of seeing normal after normal monsters (normal being relative) the variety is good for me. Thoon! Thus I've liked ALL the MM (Yes, even 4 and I know Jack will be telling me to flagellate myself as penance in just a second for say thing that. Thoon!) But I've especially liked V since it's full of goodness for two of my favorite monster types, abberation and dragon. Not to mention other sweet thThoon!ings that populate it's pages. Hence I highly recommend the book. Highly. And I don't highly recommend much.





...Thoon!

[Jack Mann]

Thus I've liked ALL the MM (Yes, even 4 and I know Jack will be telling me to flagellate myself as penance in just a second for say thing that.

Don't be ridiculous, Callos. I don't want you to flagellate yourself.

I want you to walk through the valleys of Karth Ngathya, the land of a thousand tortures, where the winds themselves will flay your skin, the rocks will tear your feet, and the rain is as liquid fire.

This has nothing to to do with your liking MM IV, mind. I just think as a general rule that you should suffer.

[SpikeFightwicky]

I like it. It's one of the better incarnations. One of the things I liked the most about it is that there's alot of mid-range monsters (levels 5-10) which, in my experience, was usually lacking.

On the downside, I HATE the monster text block format... why did it have to change?

[Merlin the Tuna]

On the downside, I HATE the monster text block format... why did it have to change?Do you mean the stat block or the text around it? Personally, I'm a tremendous fan of the stat block change, but I'm getting increasingly annoyed by the paragraphs and paragraphs of text around the creatures. Knowledge check information, ecology, incorporation in official campaign settings... tremendous space-wasters.

[Rob Knotts]

I've only glanced through it at the store, so I'm not entirely sure, but I think it has a lot more promise than MMIV was able to deliver. I gave up on d20 quite a while ago, but I still like the Monster Manuals for art and fluff. Besides, I'm a sucker for both ogre magi and Wayne Reynolds art (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM5_Gallery/106294.jpg).

A little off topic, but am I the only one who thinks the Thoon are fleshed-out versions of the flayer NPCs in Noonan's "Spiral" adventure from Dungeon 94 (http://www.pen-paper.net/rpgdb.php?op=showmagazine&magazineid=333)?

[SpikeFightwicky]

Do you mean the stat block or the text around it? Personally, I'm a tremendous fan of the stat block change, but I'm getting increasingly annoyed by the paragraphs and paragraphs of text around the creatures. Knowledge check information, ecology, incorporation in official campaign settings... tremendous space-wasters.

Stat block, not the text... I don't know what it is, but I can't find anything in it, and it seems to be too cramped for me (maybe to make room for the paragraphs of text :smallwink: ). I'm sure I'll eventually get used to it, but I just have trouble locating what info I need (one of my bigger nitpicks is the lack of Hit Dice definition, and armor class sources. I know it's possible to find out manually, but it was way easier when it said: 12d8+48 + 4d10+16 + 2d6+8 (155 hp) for an outsider with 4 levels of fighter and 2 levels of rogue, compared to: 18 HD (155 hp)). It seems to have made monster tweaking/playing around with a bit more time consuming since you have to figure all that out yourself. I also liked it when all special qualities were in the same place instead of spread throughout block.

To be fair, though, it seems like there is alot more fluff for monsters. If they toned it down overall, there would be room for another dozen monsters.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I just think as a general rule that you should suffer.

I like you to Jack. :smalltongue:

[Ranis]

I absolutely love the book. Flipping through MMV filled me with more ideas than ever did the MMIII or IV combined. The Mind Flayer variants are perfect for my homebrew world, and the dragon template actually makes me want to run dragons now.

I don't know what's up these guys' panties, but MMV is worth every penny I spent on it.

[Powerfamiliar]

Response to the book has generally been positive; while I haven't had a chance to look at it yet, the reading I've done has shown a pretty good response from the community. I'd also advise you two read the two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070727a) articles (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20070803a) that WotC has posted regarding development of MMV. I've always found the Design and Development articles to be among the most useful on the site, and these I'd say are no exception.

Those articles were really nice. For some reason i always ignored the design articles, no more :smallbiggrin:. The second one was particularly good.

[Bassetking]

One word, folks.

Xorvintaal.


Lemme say that again.


Xoooooooorviiiiinntaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal.

Worth the price of the book all on its lonesome.

[Goober4473]

On the downside, I HATE the monster text block format... why did it have to change?

Yeah, that drives me nuts... Good monsters, hard to read stat blocks.

[Ranis]

Xoooooooorviiiiinntaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal.

Worth the price of the book all on its lonesome.

Amen.

rgdrrdgfesff

[Lord Tataraus]

Yeah, that drives me nuts... Good monsters, hard to read stat blocks.

I've gotta second that, I can never find stuff in those these. Of course the hundreds of characters I make I use the old style, so that's probably not helping but still, the new style is crap IMO.

As for MMV, I have only flipped through it and hopefully will buy it soon, it looks awesome to me.

[Manave_E_Sulanul]

I give it a solid, "ya-okay".

I didn't buy it, but I got a quick look through it at the book store and I must say it is the first Monster Manual I have considered buying since Monster Manual II.

[Sulecrist]

I like it a lot.

Most of my use of it so far has been in running a solo campaign, and the thematically linked Thoonites, nasty fey, and all-around-creepy fiends make it great for that. Honestly, I think I'll probably end up using about 2/3rds of the monsters in the book, and about a quarter more than once.

Conversely, I've only used about a third of the monsters in the first Manual and I've been DMing for years.

[AslanCross]

I like it. It's the very first book I've bought, and I'm quite happy.
I actually like the new statblock format. It separates statistics according to what aspects of the game they concern: Encounter, defense, attack, and others. It's much better than the 3.0 format that was used in Forgotten Realms campaign settings (continuous PARAGRAPHS of stuff. Very painful to read.) Monster Manual I and II's blocks were better than the 3.0 stuff, but IMO the way abilities were arranged was still pretty random. The only thing I don't like about this format is that you aren't always sure where the ability goes--attack options? Special actions? Special qualities? I've gotten the hang of it, though.

[Roxlimn]

I'd have to agree. It's a great resource. The only monster books I own are Monster Manual 3.5e and Monster Manual 2, and I only bought MM2 because they contained a lot of classic monsters I simply couldn't do without.

MMV is the first monster book I've bought on the basis of containing a lot of new, interesting material that's NOT a port of essential monster concepts from the previous edition.

Xorvintaal is great. It gives you an option to use for making Dragons more like Dragons (you know, breathing fire and biting heroes), without necessarily requiring you to strip away spellcasting from every Dragon alive. It's on par with material from the great Draconomicon.

Mindflayers of Thoon are a nice entry for the "modes" Construct idea execution. The playable Elder Brain is good. The Flayer-Basher Construct is nice. The infiltrator monsters are nice.

The Black Duke and the Red Widow are good "ready-to-play" Vampires statted out from the basic template plus supplement material. If you're cheap and missed out on these, you can reverse-engineer the statblocks to recreate much of the Ghost Faced Killer and the whole of the Ronin PrC.

I liked the Elemental Mages. Giants in the CR 8-13 range are somewhat lacking, and these guys are a nice addition.

Godblooded is a nice template idea with several executed examples. You could build on it and create godblooded templates for every God.

The low CR Force and Magmacore Golems and Shardsoul Slayer are great. I've always thought that PCs of all levels should be able to experience fighting magical guardian constructs. Eberron's various pieces are great stuff, and these are great additions to that pile.

The Haunts are interesting monster ideas - monsters that you shouldn't defeat with combat!

There's stuff for Player Use as well, and they've thoughtfully included their locations in the Table of Contents. Very nice.

[Ranis]

The low CR Force and Magmacore Golems and Shardsoul Slayer are great. I've always thought that PCs of all levels should be able to experience fighting magical guardian constructs. Eberron's various pieces are great stuff, and this are great additions to that pile.

I have to concur here; when I homebrew low-powered constructs, they're horribly unbalanced one way or the other. Now, I have some nice tiny CR golems to use on my party when they are low level. :D

[littlechicory]

One word, folks.

Xorvintaal.


Lemme say that again.


Xoooooooorviiiiinntaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaal.

Worth the price of the book all on its lonesome.

ThooooOOOOOOoooooooooooon~

:smalltongue:

Seriously: I have some trouble with the stat-blocks format, so I haven't yet bought it or MM4, but if it came down to those two, I'd throw more cash at MM5 (see also: Thooooooon~) than at MM4 (which I know I've read but can't remember a thing of).

You know what I'd really like to see, though? A "big book o' templates". Let me know when that happens so I can sell my soul to WotC.

(PS: Thoooooooooooon.)