What are the "Class-Defining" features in your opinion?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Inspired by the Expertise thread, I was considering what features each class has that make them different. These are things that no one else can replicate without dipping into that class or that make the class play different than other classes. They should be available to all members of the class, so sub-class features don't really count.

Here's the list I came up with (Note, I consider Sneak Attack to be a drop-in replacement for Extra Attack with different flavor. The rogue class is built around basically always having it on so the damage numbers work out approximately the same). Ones with asterisks (*) are either 20th level or were marginal to me.

Barbarian: Rage. D12 HD. Can break ability caps*.

Bard: Bardic Inspiration, Jack of all Trades, Magical Secrets

Cleric: All healing spells*, Divine Intervention

Druid: Wildshape

Fighter: Action Surge, Second Wind, Indomitable

Monk: Martial Arts, Deflect Missiles, Stunning Strike, a bunch of ribbons

Paladin: Auras, LoH, Divine Smite/IDS (although hexblade now has something similar, but that's UA)

Ranger: Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer (poor rangers)

Rogue: Sneak Attack, Uncanny Dodge, Cunning Action, Reliable Talent

Sorcerer: Metamagic

Warlock: Invocations, Weird spell slots

Wizard: Scribing spells, Improved Rituals, Spell Mastery, Signature Spells*

Edit: added Sneak attack due to convincing arguments.

Any other thoughts? This also helps when making class-flavored NPCs (to give them abilities that scream "I'm a _________" without having to completely build them as PCs with all the baggage that entails).

[Cybren]

sneak attack is the rogue class defining feature, come on.

[Naanomi]

Monk (and to a lesser degre, barbarian): unarmored combat, movement speed increases

[PhoenixPhyre]

sneak attack is the rogue class defining feature, come on.

Yes, but it's mechanically equivalent to Extra Attack. I can't slap it on a monster and have it obvious that they're a rogue. It just doesn't feel the same as Reliable Talent (I'm really good at those skills) or Uncanny Dodge. I could trade it out for Extra Attack without really blinking. But that's just me.



Monk (and to a lesser degre, barbarian): unarmored combat, movement speed increases


Those are basically mirrors of each other. I want things no one else can do. That is, they're not unique like martial arts or rage.

[alchahest]

Barbarian: Rage. Toughness

Bard: Bardic Inspiration, full Spellcasting

Cleric: Domains, extremely powerful divine magic

Druid: Wildshape, extremely powerful natural magic

Fighter: Lots of mundane attacks, rerolling saves that you're likely to fail the second time too

Monk: Martial Arts, Unarmored Defense, Stunning Strike

Paladin: Huge burst damage, huge resistances, toughness and armor. potent but limited spells

Ranger: I guess they can use an ability to count the number of animals they can see?

Rogue: Sneak Attack, additional Bonus action Economy, lots of skills to choose from

Sorcerer: limited spell list, using spell points to increase resources for multiclassed paladins

Warlock: Eldritch Blast, Seeing in the dark better than anyone else

Wizard: huge powerful spellcasting, specialties that add loads of flavour and often power.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Sorcerer: limited spell list, using spell points to increase resources for multiclassed paladins


Not a sorcerer fan, I take it. :smallbiggrin:

[GlenSmash!]

Barbarian: Rage. Reckless Attack.

Fighter: Action Surge, Additional Extra Attacks

Paladin: Auras, Divine Smite

Ranger: Natural Explorer, Hunter's Mark (in a way it's already a version of favored enemy and makes more sense to me as an ability than a spell, but I digress)

Rogue: Sneak Attack, Cunning Action

I don't play full spellcaster classes so i don't feel qualified to comment on them, but I've played all of the above and these are my "Top two" defining abilities for those classes.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ranger: Natural Explorer, Hunter's Mark (in a way it's already a version of favored enemy and makes more sense to me as an ability than a spell, but I digress)


I find Hex and Hunter's Mark to be basically drop-in replacements. Oddly enough, the two that get those spells are also the most "archery" types--one with arrows and one with force blasts.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Yes, but it's mechanically equivalent to Extra Attack. I can't slap it on a monster and have it obvious that they're a rogue. It just doesn't feel the same as Reliable Talent (I'm really good at those skills) or Uncanny Dodge. I could trade it out for Extra Attack without really blinking. But that's just me.



Those are basically mirrors of each other. I want things no one else can do. That is, they're not unique like martial arts or rage.

Nobody else gets sneak attack, and since you can have extra attack on a umber of things and you can still grab sneak attack and extra attack with a dip.... I just don't agree here.

Sneak attack is class defining for a rogue Damage wise it may be equivalent and one may be able to switch it for extra attack on a monster if you don't know how to describe attacks, but Sneak attack has restrictions. Its different than extra attack because of it. Also A fighter's 4 attacks with extra attack is pretty defining as well as a Warlocks Pact Boons, and a monks Ki. Just any use of Ki.

[alchahest]

Not a sorcerer fan, I take it. :smallbiggrin:

on the contrary, I played a storm sorc through to level 13. he DID have two warlock levels so he could see in the dark and detect magic at will, and make significantly better use of his spell points, though.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Nobody else gets sneak attack, and since you can have extra attack on a umber of things and you can still grab sneak attack and extra attack with a dip.... I just don't agree here.

Sneak attack is class defining for a rogue Damage wise it may be equivalent and one may be able to switch it for extra attack on a monster if you don't know how to describe attacks, but Sneak attack has restrictions. Its different than extra attack because of it. Also A fighter's 4 attacks with extra attack is pretty defining as well as a Warlocks Pact Boons, and a monks Ki. Just any use of Ki.

I can see that. I guess Sneak attack makes the cut then (since having one doesn't replace the other).

[Cybren]

Nobody else gets sneak attack, and since you can have extra attack on a umber of things and you can still grab sneak attack and extra attack with a dip.... I just don't agree here.

Sneak attack is class defining for a rogue Damage wise it may be equivalent and one may be able to switch it for extra attack on a monster if you don't know how to describe attacks, but Sneak attack has restrictions. Its different than extra attack because of it. Also A fighter's 4 attacks with extra attack is pretty defining as well as a Warlocks Pact Boons, and a monks Ki. Just any use of Ki.

Was going to say exactly this. The end result might be the same in raw numbers, but those raw numbers don't tell you what the particular incentives of the mechanics are. Putting damage in a non-Attack source both limits the rogue to actual requirements of landing a sneak attack, and make non-Attack action sources of an attack (like the SCAG cantrips) and bonus action attacks, like crossbow expert or something else, a lot more valuable, and adds damage to the rogues Opportunity Attacks that just plain old Extra Attack doesn't.

[Sigreid]

Barbarian: Rage, break caps

Bard: Bardic Inspiration, Jack of all Trades, Song of Rest (IMO expertise was a bridge too far, but it is what it is)

Cleric: Channel Divinity

Druid: Wildshape

Fighter: Action Surge, Second Wind, Most attacks which gives them the unique ability to be just as damaging with basically all weapons at all engagement distances

Monk: Martial Arts,

Paladin: Auras

Ranger: Natural Explorer

Rogue: Reliable talent, should own expertiese (but again it is what it is)

Sorcerer: Metamagic

Warlock: Invocations, Weird spell slots

Wizard: Spell Mastery, Signature Spells specialized metemagic like abilities

[Zalabim]

Barbarians: Rage, Reckless Attacks. Powerful attackers exemplified in features like Brutal Critical and Primal Champion. To make an NPC feel like a barbarian, give them rage (or a rage-like) or reckless attacks.

Bards: Bardic Inspiration, Jack of All Trades. Jack of all trades exemplified in features like Magical Secrets. (Song of Rest also gets a lot of real estate on the class table, but it's such a minor thing at the RL table that it doesn't feel iconic.) To make an NPC feel like a bard, give them bardic inspiration or song of rest. There's Heroism and other bardly spells, but I don't think players are likely to notice.

Clerics: Buff spells like Bless, Shield of Faith, and Sanctuary; Divine Domain powers like Channel Divinity. Conduit for divine powers exemplified with Destroy Undead, Divine Intervention and more uses of Channel Divinity. To make an NPC feel like a cleric, give them a holy symbol. I really think that's all it'd take.

Druids: Nature spells like Entangle, Animal Friendship; Wild Shape. No, seriously, that's all there is. To make an NPC feel like a druid, give them a combat Wild Shape, or cast one of those druid spells like Entangle or Conjure Animals.

Fighters: Second Wind, Action Surge. High-octane, adrenaline-fueled, every-action-hero exemplified with Indomitable and even more attacks. Most enemies feel like fighters already, and the fighter features overlap with Legendary Actions and Legendary Resistance, but if you want an enemy to feel really fighter-y, give them three attacks with a weapon.

Monks: Martial Arts, Ki. High-flying fantastic hero exemplified by just about everything they do. Slow Fall, Stunning Strikes, Deflect Missiles, running up walls and evading fireballs. Give any one of these abilities to an NPC and it'll be called a monk. Even slow fall.

Paladins: Lay on Hands, Divine Smite; Smite spells. Holy warrior exemplified by auras that extend benefits to allies and holy power infused in every attack. Give an NPC a party-beneficial aura and it'll feel kinda paladin-y, or at least like that monster's equivalent, especially if it has a non-physical element added to its attacks.

Rangers: ...???... !...? I guess it was nothing. It would nominally be Favored Enemy, Natural Explorer, and Hunter's Mark, but none of those have had any special presence in play. (Playing a Ranger, level 5 right now). Make an NPC track something and players will assume it's a ranger, but I don't think there's any combat ability that'll have such an effect.

Rogues: Sneak Attack, Cunning Action. Highly skilled/lucky (it can be hard to tell the difference) opportunistic combatant, exemplified by Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, archetypes and Stroke of Luck. Stick to Sneak Attack and Cunning Action bonus actions (if not the whole feature) for rogue-like feelings towards an NPC.

Sorcerers: Font of Magic. Spellcaster that's flexible with magical power, exemplified by Metamagic and sorcery points. In theory anyway. In practice, nothing so far. I don't think you could convince players an NPC is a sorcerer with anything less than a full character sheet.

Warlocks: Pact Magic, Invocations. A veritable fountain of strange magic, exemplified by new patron powers and evolving access to spells and invocations. Cast Eldritch Blast, even without invocations, or Armor of Agathys and a lot of players will pick up on this class. Most weird-magic users are going to feel warlocky, even if they don't use pact magic's spell slot recovery.

Wizards: Spellbook, Ritual Casting. There are other ritual casters, but it always feels wizard-y. Studious master of magic exemplified by school and spell specializations. Even their Arcane Recovery feels like study. Give a spellcaster a book and suddenly it's a wizard.

[JellyPooga]

I actually agree with the OP's original premise regarding Rogues and Sneak Attack; SA is just extra damage and although it's a feature unique to Rogues, "dealing damage" is not a defining feature of the Rogue Class IMO. Rogues are defined by mobility and skills, so although the likes of Expertise and Cunning Action are duplicated by other Classes (Bard) or have a facsimile of them (Monk), those are the features that define the Rogue Class far more than Sneak Attack. I wouod also add Uncanny Dodge and Evasion to that list and lump them all under the heading of "Survivor"...because that's what Rogues do best. They may not have the most hp, they may not have mighty spells or powerful attacks, but they have all the tools to get themselves through any situation in (more or less) one piece. If, in doing so, they can help others come through in one piece as well is a happy coincidence. That's what defines a Rogue.

[Mortis_Elrod]

I actually agree with the OP's original premise regarding Rogues and Sneak Attack; SA is just extra damage and although it's a feature unique to Rogues, "dealing damage" is not a defining feature of the Rogue Class IMO. Rogues are defined by mobility and skills, so although the likes of Expertise and Cunning Action are duplicated by other Classes (Bard) or have a facsimile of them (Monk), those are the features that define the Rogue Class far more than Sneak Attack. I wouod also add Uncanny Dodge and Evasion to that list and lump them all under the heading of "Survivor"...because that's what Rogues do best. They may not have the most hp, they may not have mighty spells or powerful attacks, but they have all the tools to get themselves through any situation in (more or less) one piece. If, in doing so, they can help others come through in one piece as well is a happy coincidence. That's what defines a Rogue.

Nah , I don't think rogues are the 'survivor'. I think Rogues are the "Oppurtunistic" class. Give them a way in and they take what they want and Sneak attack is exactly this. Seizing the opportunity. Rogues are good seeing weak points, reacting to environments, and having the skills to back it up. I think Sneak attack is one of the class defining things rogues do.

There's another class that should be the survivor but doesn't seem like it, and that should be the ranger. The Ranger should feel natural in any environment, with any weapon, and be able to recognize the weak points to foes they have fought before. Sadly the ranger doesn't really do this, base class wise. It kind of does but nothing stands out. Which is why a lot of people have an issue with how it's designed, despite whatever numbers tell us.

[JellyPooga]

Nah , I don't think rogues are the 'survivor'. I think Rogues are the "Oppurtunistic" class. Give them a way in and they take what they want and Sneak attack is exactly this. Seizing the opportunity. Rogues are good seeing weak points, reacting to environments, and having the skills to back it up. I think Sneak attack is one of the class defining things rogues do.

I don't agree, but I can certainly see where you're coming from. Perhaps it comes from a different playstyle.



There's another class that should be the survivor but doesn't seem like it, and that should be the ranger. The Ranger should feel natural in any environment, with any weapon, and be able to recognize the weak points to foes they have fought before. Sadly the ranger doesn't really do this, base class wise. It kind of does but nothing stands out. Which is why a lot of people have an issue with how it's designed, despite whatever numbers tell us.

This I agree with. The Ranger should be the Survivor, but really doesn't have any features to back it up. Rangers got short shrift in 5ed and ended up being little more than an alternative Fighter and even the UA didn't fix that either.

[Naanomi]

Rangers iconic abilities in combat (which are not great) live in subclasses: give an NPC a burly beast pet, or let them volley, and it will feel like a ranger

[Rogerdodger557]

Fighter: Quantity of Attacks, Additional ASIs

[DevilMcam]

Rangers iconic abilities in combat (which are not great) live in subclasses: give an NPC a burly beast pet, or let them volley, and it will feel like a ranger

To that i'd add that rangers are "the jack of all trades" class,
They are good with weapons but not as much as fighters
Hunter's mark makes for powerfull attacks, but not as much as pal's smites, hail of thorn can do so to an extent as well
They have a lot of utilities through their spells, and in particular combat utility (they still can have okay out of combat utility depending on the spells you picked) but not as much as any full caster.
They have ways to get "expertise", and advantages on many skills thanks to natural explorer and Favored ennemies.

The subclasses makes you better at what you already do.

They don't really have something nobody else have, but they share plenty of keys features from other classes.

[Mortis_Elrod]

K think that's the real issue though. Every other class has their iconic abilities and class defining features as part of the base class, and their subclass merely offers another way to do it while also supporting the base features. Rangers are kind of the opposite, and it sucks. Maybe not numerically, but still. I want to play a ranger but it's an effort more so than any other class.

[PhoenixPhyre]

K think that's the real issue though. Every other class has their iconic abilities and class defining features as part of the base class, and their subclass merely offers another way to do it while also supporting the base features. Rangers are kind of the opposite, and it sucks. Maybe not numerically, but still. I want to play a ranger but it's an effort more so than any other class.

I agree. I think that the truly unique thing that rangers get is the (combat effective) pet, but that's only really in Beast Conclave. Rangers as such seem to have no real mechanical identity in the base class.

[alchahest]

and in the PHB ranger, the beast enclave is terrrrrrible. you get to use your actions to have your pet attack less effectively than you... okay?

[SharkForce]

and in the PHB ranger, the beast enclave is terrrrrrible. you get to use your actions to have your pet attack less effectively than you... okay?

it actually isn't terrible in numbers, provided you choose the right beast. in fact, it's got fairly impressive damage. just very clunky, for the most part. the UA one, which people seem to like a lot more, is ironically not all that different mechanically... you're still trading in extra attack for your pet to get actions, it's just that you never gained extra attack in the first place rather than needing to actually give it up for your pet to do something.

anyways, i would agree that druid spell list has a number of iconic spells in it. they may not have the sheer variety of spells that a wizard has, but they do have a bunch of spells that really help to define them which are generally not available elsewhere.

[Easy_Lee]

it actually isn't terrible in numbers, provided you choose the right beast. in fact, it's got fairly impressive damage. just very clunky, for the most part. the UA one, which people seem to like a lot more, is ironically not all that different mechanically... you're still trading in extra attack for your pet to get actions, it's just that you never gained extra attack in the first place rather than needing to actually give it up for your pet to do something.

anyways, i would agree that druid spell list has a number of iconic spells in it. they may not have the sheer variety of spells that a wizard has, but they do have a bunch of spells that really help to define them which are generally not available elsewhere.

Off topic, but check my signature. The UA one is borderline broken when used correctly (no multiclass required).

[alchahest]

The UA Ranger has a couple huge improvements - 1: you, the ranger, get to attack using your actions, and 2: the beast improves as you do, gaining hit points, better saves, better attack bonus and damage, and better attributes. It actually contributes as a full fledged class feature does, and can actually survive in fights as you level up.

[alchahest]

Off topic, but check my signature. The UA one is borderline broken when used correctly (no multiclass required).

exactly! UA Beast Enclave is bonkers good compared to PHB, even with losing multiple attacks on the beast (which is eventually superceded by whirlwind attack anyways)

[KorvinStarmast]

Clerics: turn undead; destroy undead; divine intervention
That's their unique contribution to the show.

Others have heals
Others have restoration / poison removal