Dual wielding crossbows

[Hish]

I got the idea of dual wielding crossbows. Yes, I realize that I'd be better off doing basically anything else, but it's a personal challenge now to build the best character I can that dual wields crossbows.

I've found a number of methods at varying levels of cost and RAW-legality. But a bunch of rules questions have come up.

1) Is it possible to dual wield weapons but only have one in your hands at a time? Eg. Make your attacks with a sword in two hands, drop that sword as a free action, draw another sword as a free action (via Quick Draw), and make a final attack with it.

2) Is it better to hold a hand crossbow in each hand, or a light crossbow?
Both need 2 hands to load. The hand crossbows need EWP, and they only deal 1d4. The light crossbows deal 1d8, but you take a -2 to attack for firing them in one hand. It's probably moot if the answer to question 1 is yes.

3) Does it take actions to shift which hand your weapons are in?

Finally, does anyone have any methods of dual wielding crossbows that I haven't found yet?

Quick Draw + Rapid Reload
Draw one crossbow as a free action, fire it, put it away as a free action, draw the other, fire it, and draw the first one again.
Pros: Only costs 2 feats; usable from first level
Cons: Requires DM ruling that quick draw allows you to stow a weapon for free. RAW seems to be against it.
Glove of storing
Do the same thing as above, but Store the weapons instead of sheathing them
Pros: RAW legal
Cons: By RAW, DM can limit the number of free actions taken in a turn. Also the glove costs 10,000 GP
Spare Hand (MIC)
Transfer crossbows you aren't using to the spare hand
Pros: RAW legal; doesn't use free actions so the aforementioned nope button doesn't apply.
Cons: Costs 12,000 GP
Quick Loading + Self-Loading enchantments (MIC)
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Costs 10,000 GP and a +1 weapon enhancement
Get an extra hand (see various other threads)
You need a spare hand to load a crossbow, so just get a spare hand.
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Often expensive, depending on method

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Would you, as a DM, allow a character with Quick Draw to sheath their weapons as a free action?

[FlamingKobold]

I would personally allow it, but I do tend to be fairly lenient so maybe not the best judge. At the point that you're dual wielding crossbows I don't think there's a threat to breaking the game, so I doubt any reasonable DM would stop you.

[Gruftzwerg]

I got the idea of dual wielding crossbows. Yes, I realize that I'd be better off doing basically anything else, but it's a personal challenge now to build the best character I can that dual wields crossbows.

I've found a number of methods at varying levels of cost and RAW-legality. But a bunch of rules questions have come up.

1) Is it possible to dual wield weapons but only have one in your hands at a time? Eg. Make your attacks with a sword in two hands, drop that sword as a free action, draw another sword as a free action (via Quick Draw), and make a final attack with it.

2) Is it better to hold a hand crossbow in each hand, or a light crossbow?
Both need 2 hands to load. The hand crossbows need EWP, and they only deal 1d4. The light crossbows deal 1d8, but you take a -2 to attack for firing them in one hand. It's probably moot if the answer to question 1 is yes.

3) Does it take actions to shift which hand your weapons are in?

Finally, does anyone have any methods of dual wielding crossbows that I haven't found yet?

Quick Draw + Rapid Reload
Draw one crossbow as a free action, fire it, put it away as a free action, draw the other, fire it, and draw the first one again.
Pros: Only costs 2 feats; usable from first level
Cons: Requires DM ruling that quick draw allows you to stow a weapon for free. RAW seems to be against it.
Glove of storing
Do the same thing as above, but Store the weapons instead of sheathing them
Pros: RAW legal
Cons: By RAW, DM can limit the number of free actions taken in a turn. Also the glove costs 10,000 GP
Spare Hand (MIC)
Transfer crossbows you aren't using to the spare hand
Pros: RAW legal; doesn't use free actions so the aforementioned nope button doesn't apply.
Cons: Costs 12,000 GP
Quick Loading + Self-Loading enchantments (MIC)
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Costs 10,000 GP and a +1 weapon enhancement
Get an extra hand (see various other threads)
You need a spare hand to load a crossbow, so just get a spare hand.
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Often expensive, depending on method

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Would you, as a DM, allow a character with Quick Draw to sheath their weapons as a free action?

1) no

2) go for hand-crossbow. Cause you already get TWF penalties (-2 for each hand), adding another -2 due to light crossbow is bad imho.

3) It ain't determined by the rules as far as I know. Iirc, you mainhand ain't fixed. You can change it every turn, so switching the weapons in your hand doesn't change anything really.

Sry, but won't get the extra cheese you're looking for.
You just have to go with regular TWF and preferably 2 hand-crossbows.

[Axel_690]

I got the idea of dual wielding crossbows. Yes, I realize that I'd be better off doing basically anything else, but it's a personal challenge now to build the best character I can that dual wields crossbows.

I've found a number of methods at varying levels of cost and RAW-legality. But a bunch of rules questions have come up.

1) Is it possible to dual wield weapons but only have one in your hands at a time? Eg. Make your attacks with a sword in two hands, drop that sword as a free action, draw another sword as a free action (via Quick Draw), and make a final attack with it.

2) Is it better to hold a hand crossbow in each hand, or a light crossbow?
Both need 2 hands to load. The hand crossbows need EWP, and they only deal 1d4. The light crossbows deal 1d8, but you take a -2 to attack for firing them in one hand. It's probably moot if the answer to question 1 is yes.

3) Does it take actions to shift which hand your weapons are in?

Finally, does anyone have any methods of dual wielding crossbows that I haven't found yet?

Quick Draw + Rapid Reload
Draw one crossbow as a free action, fire it, put it away as a free action, draw the other, fire it, and draw the first one again.
Pros: Only costs 2 feats; usable from first level
Cons: Requires DM ruling that quick draw allows you to stow a weapon for free. RAW seems to be against it.
Glove of storing
Do the same thing as above, but Store the weapons instead of sheathing them
Pros: RAW legal
Cons: By RAW, DM can limit the number of free actions taken in a turn. Also the glove costs 10,000 GP
Spare Hand (MIC)
Transfer crossbows you aren't using to the spare hand
Pros: RAW legal; doesn't use free actions so the aforementioned nope button doesn't apply.
Cons: Costs 12,000 GP
Quick Loading + Self-Loading enchantments (MIC)
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Costs 10,000 GP and a +1 weapon enhancement
Get an extra hand (see various other threads)
You need a spare hand to load a crossbow, so just get a spare hand.
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Often expensive, depending on method

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Would you, as a DM, allow a character with Quick Draw to sheath their weapons as a free action?

These two articles will tell you everything you need to know
Gun-Fu (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471342-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Gun-Fu-(Tempest_Stormwind))

TWF Off-handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook)

[Astralia123]

I got the idea of dual wielding crossbows. Yes, I realize that I'd be better off doing basically anything else, but it's a personal challenge now to build the best character I can that dual wields crossbows.

I've found a number of methods at varying levels of cost and RAW-legality. But a bunch of rules questions have come up.

1) Is it possible to dual wield weapons but only have one in your hands at a time? Eg. Make your attacks with a sword in two hands, drop that sword as a free action, draw another sword as a free action (via Quick Draw), and make a final attack with it.

2) Is it better to hold a hand crossbow in each hand, or a light crossbow?
Both need 2 hands to load. The hand crossbows need EWP, and they only deal 1d4. The light crossbows deal 1d8, but you take a -2 to attack for firing them in one hand. It's probably moot if the answer to question 1 is yes.

3) Does it take actions to shift which hand your weapons are in?

Finally, does anyone have any methods of dual wielding crossbows that I haven't found yet?

Quick Draw + Rapid Reload
Draw one crossbow as a free action, fire it, put it away as a free action, draw the other, fire it, and draw the first one again.
Pros: Only costs 2 feats; usable from first level
Cons: Requires DM ruling that quick draw allows you to stow a weapon for free. RAW seems to be against it.
Glove of storing
Do the same thing as above, but Store the weapons instead of sheathing them
Pros: RAW legal
Cons: By RAW, DM can limit the number of free actions taken in a turn. Also the glove costs 10,000 GP
Spare Hand (MIC)
Transfer crossbows you aren't using to the spare hand
Pros: RAW legal; doesn't use free actions so the aforementioned nope button doesn't apply.
Cons: Costs 12,000 GP
Quick Loading + Self-Loading enchantments (MIC)
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Costs 10,000 GP and a +1 weapon enhancement
Get an extra hand (see various other threads)
You need a spare hand to load a crossbow, so just get a spare hand.
Pros: Definitely RAW legal
Cons: Often expensive, depending on method

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Would you, as a DM, allow a character with Quick Draw to sheath their weapons as a free action?

1) You can attack in this way but I doubt it would be counted dual wielding.

2) As your wish, but you won't be able to be both dual wielding them AND be able to reload them. Unless you have things like multiple arms.

3) In one of the communities that I know, the usual answer is yes, and people tend to allow free action changing hands of you have quick draw. It is not a RAW answer, of course.

4)People turn to repeating crossbows when they want dual-wielding crossbows that badly. It is still advised to bribe your DM at the same time.
Other method include : ask the DM for self-reloading magical crossbows; use spare hand AND bribe your DM so that you are considered dual-wielding; bribe your DM so that you can leadership a follower/polymorph a familiar/some other ways and have this whatever it is serve as your reloading-assistant, AND then bribe your DM so he ignores the actions required to transfer crossbows between you and this assistant.

[TotallyNotEvil]

A pair of +1 Quick-Loading Hand Crossbows isn't that bad if you can reliably rack up Sneak or Skirmish.

Just need to pick up Hand Crossbow Focus and Crossbow Sniper.

[Zancloufer]

Could just be a race with 4 arms. Use two arms per crossbow, all the problems solved. Thri-keen is probably the easiest but I would check with the DM if you could get the RHD and/or LA reduced/removed.

[Psyren]

It's doable but you're pretty much going to need magic to help you reload (e.g. Qucik-loading, Armbow etc.) Otherwise you end up with this (http://cad-comic.com/comic/not-as-cool-as-it-sounds/)

[Zaq]

AFB, but I think there's a low-level spell (maybe in Races of the Dragon?) that makes a crossbow automatically reload itself. The item version that you mentioned is likely more efficient, but it may not be cheaper.

Update: I found it! Ghostly Reload, RotD pg. 113. Sor/Wiz 1. Reloads a crossbow 1/CL (1/2 CL for a heavy crossbow). Kind of runs out quickly, but it's better than nothing, especially if you can sweet-talk your GM into getting it in item form.

[Rebel7284]

Two levels of Totemist gives you Girallon Arms totem bind for two extra clawed arms.

There is a non-psionic version of Tri-Kreen somewhere with less LA. Also, Diopsid from Dragon Compendium is only LA +1.

[daremetoidareyo]

Just buy a bunch and drop them. Pick them up when your enemy is dead.

human
1. martial rogue 1: 1)kung fu genius, B) TWF B)point blank shot
2. Arcane stunt swashbuckler: B)weapon finesse
3. Arcane stunt swashbuckler: 3)hand crossbow focus
4. Arcane stunt swashbuckler (int to damage on light weapons)
5: hit and run fighter 1: B)quick draw
6: monk: 6)unorthodox flurry, B)improved unarmed strike, B)stunning fist
7: monk: B)monastic training
8: psywarrior/psion with psionic shot as a bonus feat or ardent with creation mantle
9-13: Fist of dal quor: 9)crossbow sniper

You can sudden strike from 60 feet, you have a crossbow in each hand. You add your int modifier, and half of your dex modifier to damage. You add your dex modifier again if they are flatfooted. you can flurry with your hand crossbows, and you can stun with them. you're set up to go tashalatora. Psion is probably the best 8th level class seeing as how it is int based.

quick question, can a psicrystal reload a hand crossbow?

[Jack_McSnatch]

If you're tsking ewp anyway, maybe try double crossbows. That's FOUR cross bows. Use alchemist fire bolts. Take the feats grenadier and mad alchemist. Not a complete build, but I think it sounds fun.

[Thurbane]

Is this 3.5 or PF?

There's an awesome Paizo feat (which existed back in the pre-PF days) called Crossbow Mastery: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=9334198&postcount=4 / http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2il0z?Crossbow-Mastery

It requires some feat investment (unless you're a Ranger 6), but it helps make crossbows a lot more viable.

[Hish]

Is this 3.5 or PF?

3.5


These two articles will tell you everything you need to know
Gun-Fu (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?471342-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-Gun-Fu-(Tempest_Stormwind))

That's a really nice build. Way above my skill level to build, though.


Just buy a bunch and drop them. Pick them up when your enemy is dead.

I'm aware that's an option, but then you can't enchant your weapons without it getting absurdly expensive.


quick question, can a psicrystal reload a hand crossbow?
You need hands to load a crossbow.

What I'm seeing in general is that weapon enhancements or extra arms are my best bet. And it doesn't look like it's practical at low levels.

[Thurbane]

3.5
I'd still ask the DM if he would allow Crossbow Mastery. Sure, it's 3rd party, but it was originally made for 3.5 (pre-Pathfinder system adventure path published by Paizo).

I'm very stingy on 3rd party material I allow in the games I run, but I allow this feat to make crossbows viable.

[Gruftzwerg]

Why do you have problem with reloading? I don't get it?


Individually loading each hand crossbow takes a move action that provokes an attack of opportunity. It takes a full-round action to load both hand crossbows.

and now lets get to the dropping & switching/reloading part. The answer is "Shoulder Straps". Your hand-crossbows probably have some. Now you can drop em (as free action) and pick em up back (with quick draw again as free action). If you really intend to switch between several of em, that's the way.

[Big Fau]

Two levels of Totemist gives you Girallon Arms totem bind for two extra clawed arms.

There is a non-psionic version of Tri-Kreen somewhere with less LA. Also, Diopsid from Dragon Compendium is only LA +1.

The Girallon Arms soulmeld states the arms can't be used to wield weapons other than the claws.\

@OP: The answer to #3 varies from DM to DM, but WotC's own FAQ states that you can change hands as a free action.

The Light Crossbow option would probably work best. The -2 penalty is easily ignored, and its very tedious to get extra damage on crossbows. If you can wrangle it, the Third Arm (MIC) and levels in Artificer can give you the ability to reload both crossbows without needing extra help. An Unseen Servant, provided by the Amulet of Perpetual Attendance, can also do the job.

[Darrin]

The Girallon Arms soulmeld states the arms can't be used to wield weapons other than the claws.\


Magic of Incarnum says no such thing. The best we get in the text is this vague sentence: "These spirit arms mirror the movements of your real arms." Based on that sentence, if your primary arms can grip and attack with manufactured weapons, then so can your secondary arms. If the secondary arms are precise enough to make independent claw attacks, then I don't see why they couldn't do so with manufactured weapons.