Modifying 1e AD&D Bard

[daryen]

The 1e AD&D Bard is a very odd duck, having to go through Fighter -> Thief -> finally Bard. I tried it once, but the campaign didn't last long enough for me to even get out of Fighter.

I always wondered, however, if a simple modification to the class would let it work more conventionally. There were two relatively simple ideas I had, but never knew whether they would work well enough.

Quick Bard
The idea is that you just enter the Bard class like you would any other class. Since the class assumes the prior classes, you have to fill in a couple blanks:
- Get a d6 hit die for the first level. (This gives a total of 11d6, which is slightly better than thief, but pays for it in the end as the post 11 progression is just +1hp instead of +2hp.)
- Fight as a thief. Save as a thief. In both of these cases, this seems the natural fit. (Especially looking back through the lens of systems that came after.) It could be justifiable to use cleric for one or both instead, but thief seems the better fit.
This lets the class work as a standard class, and makes no changes other than to fill in the gaps left by ignoring the requirement for the initial classes. The character would not have any thief skills, but that seems reasonable, as they should be focusing on "barding" and spell casting, not thieving.

Is this a reasonable approach to get a simple, but workable, early-entry Bard?

Multi-class Bard
The idea here (for at least half-elves) is to let the character use the multi-class rules with the Bard. So, instead of performing the levels one after the other as published, let the character just do the multi-class. Since the method used by the base Bard really only makes sense for humans, perhaps half-elves have to use the multi-class option instead. This means they would progress very slowly, but no more slowly than they would as, say, a fighter/thief/magic user.

Would that be too wonky and powerful? Honestly, it shouldn't be really any worse than a "typical" three-way multi-class, but I am not expert enough to say for sure.

Anyway, I have been wondering at least the first idea for <mumble> years, so I thought I should ask now that I have rules to look at again (sale at DTRPG) and a forum in which to ask.

Thank you!

[Digitalelf]

The idea is that you just enter the Bard class like you would any other class.

If you really want a quick and fast bard with the work already done for you, that can also start out as a 1st level character, and works just like any other class, then there was a somewhat similar "variant" bard available for 1st edition in the pages of Dragon magazine.

Issue #56 had the article "Singing A New Tune" by Jeff Goelz (reprinted in "Best of Dragon Volume 3"). This variation of the 1st edition bard also lacked thieving skills and "focused on barding".

[daryen]

Thanks for the pointer. I don't know if I have that reference, but I can check.

As a now somewhat related question, at what issue number did Dragon magazine transition from 1e to 2e?

[Lord Torath]

Dragon 142 (Feb 1989) was the 2nd Edition Preview.

[thorr-kan]

Dragon 142 (Feb 1989) was the 2nd Edition Preview.
That sounds right. According to my notes, actual articles started in Dragon 145.

[daryen]

Thank you both for the Dragon issue numbers!

Would still love to get some comments on the Bard thoughts above, too.

[LibraryOgre]

The 1e AD&D Bard is a very odd duck, having to go through Fighter -> Thief -> finally Bard. I tried it once, but the campaign didn't last long enough for me to even get out of Fighter.

I always wondered, however, if a simple modification to the class would let it work more conventionally. There were two relatively simple ideas I had, but never knew whether they would work well enough.

Quick Bard
The idea is that you just enter the Bard class like you would any other class. Since the class assumes the prior classes, you have to fill in a couple blanks:
- Get a d6 hit die for the first level. (This gives a total of 11d6, which is slightly better than thief, but pays for it in the end as the post 11 progression is just +1hp instead of +2hp.)
- Fight as a thief. Save as a thief. In both of these cases, this seems the natural fit. (Especially looking back through the lens of systems that came after.) It could be justifiable to use cleric for one or both instead, but thief seems the better fit.
This lets the class work as a standard class, and makes no changes other than to fill in the gaps left by ignoring the requirement for the initial classes. The character would not have any thief skills, but that seems reasonable, as they should be focusing on "barding" and spell casting, not thieving.

Is this a reasonable approach to get a simple, but workable, early-entry Bard?

Multi-class Bard
The idea here (for at least half-elves) is to let the character use the multi-class rules with the Bard. So, instead of performing the levels one after the other as published, let the character just do the multi-class. Since the method used by the base Bard really only makes sense for humans, perhaps half-elves have to use the multi-class option instead. This means they would progress very slowly, but no more slowly than they would as, say, a fighter/thief/magic user.

Would that be too wonky and powerful? Honestly, it shouldn't be really any worse than a "typical" three-way multi-class, but I am not expert enough to say for sure.

Anyway, I have been wondering at least the first idea for <mumble> years, so I thought I should ask now that I have rules to look at again (sale at DTRPG) and a forum in which to ask.

Thank you!

Workable. I also pushed spells back a level (starting at level 2), while pulling HD forward a level. I also strip them of their druidic powers... they have bard abilities, and that's it. I think Charm %, druidic spells, and the like makes for a robust enough class without also giving them druidic abilities.

[daryen]

Workable. I also pushed spells back a level (starting at level 2), while pulling HD forward a level. I also strip them of their druidic powers... they have bard abilities, and that's it. I think Charm %, druidic spells, and the like makes for a robust enough class without also giving them druidic abilities.

In the Quick Bard above, I intentionally tried to keep the changes as absolutely minimal as possible. To fluff it out more, I would probably strip the druidic powers (like you mention), though I might leave fey immunity. And if I really wanted to get into the nitty-gritty, I might swap around the spell list some, just to give them more variety, instead of just being druid-lite. (The Dragon #56 Bard got some illusionist spells, too. Instead of doing it that way, there could just be a new "Bard Spell List" that includes a subset of both illusionist and druid spells. But, again, that is way more work that just a quick conversion that works well enough.)

[LibraryOgre]

In the Quick Bard above, I intentionally tried to keep the changes as absolutely minimal as possible. To fluff it out more, I would probably strip the druidic powers (like you mention), though I might leave fey immunity. And if I really wanted to get into the nitty-gritty, I might swap around the spell list some, just to give them more variety, instead of just being druid-lite. (The Dragon #56 Bard got some illusionist spells, too. Instead of doing it that way, there could just be a new "Bard Spell List" that includes a subset of both illusionist and druid spells. But, again, that is way more work that just a quick conversion that works well enough.)

Hey, this is off-topic, until you mentioned it, but I worked on a little version of AD&D that got rid of Magic-Users and Clerics, replacing them with slightly reworked Illusionists and Druids.

Druid/Illusionist D&D (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Lw6MMtM0eTsNbvHiJSIEUyaNhH3Wk3Kx6pPh87Hw3w4/edit?usp=sharing)

[Mutazoia]

Honestly, just port the 2nd ed Bard into 1st ed, and your done.

[LibraryOgre]

Honestly, just port the 2nd ed Bard into 1st ed, and your done.

While not a horrible option, there's some distinct differences between the 1e bard and the 2e bard... to the point where I've done the opposite, porting the 1e bard to 2e.

Hmmm... if we were to do a 1e bard in 2e style, how would y'all handle the Charm and Lore percentages? Leave them as slow, static gains, or give a small pool of points to distribute? Would you include thief skills? Which ones?

[Digitalelf]

if we were to do a 1e bard in 2e style, how would y'all handle the Charm and Lore percentages? Leave them as slow, static gains, or give a small pool of points to distribute? Would you include thief skills? Which ones?

In keeping with the 2nd edition theme, I suppose giving a pool of points to distribute would be appropriate for Charm and Lore. And as for thieving skills, well, I would give Pick Pockets for slight of hand tricks, and perhaps Hide in Shadows and Move Silently for "disappearing" style acts.

But if a player really wanted to play a 1st edition bard, I would probably just use the (1e) class as is.

[Mutazoia]

While not a horrible option, there's some distinct differences between the 1e bard and the 2e bard... to the point where I've done the opposite, porting the 1e bard to 2e.

Hmmm... if we were to do a 1e bard in 2e style, how would y'all handle the Charm and Lore percentages? Leave them as slow, static gains, or give a small pool of points to distribute? Would you include thief skills? Which ones?

Personally, I would leave them as slow, static gains to offset their potential abuse (and simulate the Bard gaining knowledge (lore) and becoming more "charming" as he got better at his craft), but modify them with stat boni (Int and Chr, respectively). Port in the thief skills as is from 2e.


In keeping with the 2nd edition theme, I suppose giving a pool of points to distribute would be appropriate for Charm and Lore. And as for thieving skills, well, I would give Pick Pockets for slight of hand tricks, and perhaps Hide in Shadows and Move Silently for "disappearing" style acts.

But if a player really wanted to play a 1st edition bard, I would probably just use the (1e) class as is.

The problem with the 1e Bard is the extreme OPness of the class, plus the elaborate steps you need to go through to get there...its not called the God Bard for nuffin.

[daryen]

I think my preferred form of the Quick Bard is this:
- Minimum requirements: 15 in Wis, Dex, Cha; 12 in Int; 10 in Str and Con.
- Gets a D6 hit die at the first level. This gives a total of 11 hit dice. Additional levels remain at +1 hp per level.
- Attacks as cleric; saves as thief.
- No Druid abilities at all outside spells.
- Gains the following thief abilities at level 3 usable at level-2: Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Read Languages.
- May use magical items permitted to druids or thieves (or bards).
- Proficiencies: 3 weapons, -3 penalty, new 1/4 levels.

Or, you know, just play Pathfinder. :smallbiggrin:

[LibraryOgre]

Or, you know, just play Pathfinder. :smallbiggrin:

But I want to have fun. :smalltongue:


I think my preferred form of the Quick Bard is this:
- Minimum requirements: 15 in Wis, Dex, Cha; 12 in Int; 10 in Str and Con.
- Gets a D6 hit die at the first level. This gives a total of 11 hit dice. Additional levels remain at +1 hp per level.
- Attacks as cleric; saves as thief.
- No Druid abilities at all outside spells.
- Gains the following thief abilities at level 3 usable at level-2: Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Read Languages.
- May use magical items permitted to druids or thieves (or bards).
- Proficiencies: 3 weapons, -3 penalty, new 1/4 levels.

Why Open Locks and Find/Remove Traps?

[daryen]

Why Open Locks and Find/Remove Traps?

Because I want them to have at least a little bit of theif, but I don't want them to be "sneaky". The Read Languages was obvious, so that isn't a problem. The Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, and Climb Walls were out immediately. I waffled on Pick Pockets, but I thought that was outside what I was thinking. So, to give them at least something, all that was left (after Languages) was Open Locks and Find Traps.

Plus, I justified it because a Bard is all about the lore (and the performance) and so they would probably run into locks and traps while seeking out that lore. And it is two levels lower, so they shouldn't be threatening the Thief's role in any real way. They would be more of a backup when the Thief's attempts fail (or as a backup when the Thief is too damaged to try).

Probably pretty flimsy reason, but I thought it fit what I was trying to achieve and wasn't a total mismatch.

[LibraryOgre]

Because I want them to have at least a little bit of theif, but I don't want them to be "sneaky". The Read Languages was obvious, so that isn't a problem. The Hide in Shadows, Move Silently, and Climb Walls were out immediately. I waffled on Pick Pockets, but I thought that was outside what I was thinking. So, to give them at least something, all that was left (after Languages) was Open Locks and Find Traps.

Plus, I justified it because a Bard is all about the lore (and the performance) and so they would probably run into locks and traps while seeking out that lore. And it is two levels lower, so they shouldn't be threatening the Thief's role in any real way. They would be more of a backup when the Thief's attempts fail (or as a backup when the Thief is too damaged to try).

Probably pretty flimsy reason, but I thought it fit what I was trying to achieve and wasn't a total mismatch.

A bit flimsy, but fig leaves are adequate clothes, some times.