Thought experiment. TWF with out the usual damage boosters.

[Metahuman1]

So, I was thinking. I've heard of TWF 1 handed weapons with high strength and Power Attack, or using gauntlets/spiked gauntlets, armor spikes/razors, or unarmed strikes and a 2 handed weapon for more of that.


And EVERYONE knows the old trick of TWF with the rogue or the bard or the scout or the factotum (Iai-jutsu focus.) or the ninja for the damage boosters.


and of course Crit Fishing is a classic.



But here's a little thought experiment. Suppose you wanted to build a viable TWF for a mid op game. Whom could do enough damage to matter, but wasn't necessarily one rounding everything all the time after a certain level.

Suppose you wanted to avoid the TWF routes above while your at it, no sneak attack/skirmish/sudden strike/Iai-jutsu focus/bardic music, and you wanna be dex focused so massive Str and Power Attack, and crit fishing, are off the table.



What do you think could be done to make the idea viable up to a mid op level?





So far, the only idea I've hit on is to duel wield shadow hand weapons as a half drow Swordsage with a fighter level. Buy off the LA, take the drow fighter variant for Dex to damage vs. Flatfooted opponents, and take Weapons Finesse and Shadow Blade Strike.



Anyone else got any ideas?

[noce]

So far, the only idea I've hit on is to duel wield shadow hand weapons as a half drow Swordsage with a fighter level. Buy off the LA, take the drow fighter variant for Dex to damage vs. Flatfooted opponents, and take Weapons Finesse and Shadow Blade Strike.

Half Drow does not have an LA. Lesser Drow does not have an LA either.
And anyway, DotU variants do not require you to be a Drow.

Other options to increase Dex include Ferocity Barbarian ACF (Web Cityscape), Wildrunner PrC (Races of the Wild).

If you go the Champion of Corellon Larethian route (Races of the Wild), you can use 18-20/x2 weapons, thus allowing you to fish for crits.
Do note, however, that Champion of Corellon allows you to use DEX to both hit and damage with Elven Courtblade, so the same build would be much stronger as a two-handed weapon user.

[Fliggl]

Swashbuckler3 / Fighter2 / Dervish10 / Tempest5
Dual wielding scimitars

Old but gold :)

[Metahuman1]

Wouldn't both of those delve into Crit fishing though?



It doesn't need to be the strongest, the idea this time was to have it strong enough to keep up in a mid op game and be fun.


So, does that champion of Corellon Larethian stack with the drow fighter variant and with Shadow blade strike?

[Eldariel]

Yes, CoCL does stack just fine. It's just precision damage which is really meh though. Simple Warblade with Stromguard Warrior, or Swordsage with Shadow Blade, or a combination there-of is more than viable though. It's pre-ToB that this was really a problem (though the TWF requirements are way too high for the pay-off) - with ToB TWF is fine. Dervish is also quite strong but really, really boring to play in the long run (I played 10 levels of the class and the 1/day evisceration just isn't all that satisfying when you do the same thing every single combat). Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) is a really nice feat for a TWFer with reasonable damage.

Oh yeah, and you can always go TWF with e.g. Wood Elf, high (19+) Dex and maxed Str the oldfashioned way. But the -2 and missing out on efficient two-handed Power Attack really kills it; you're just strictly worse than a Two-Hander. Artificer or someone else good at making magic weapons could make two superenhanced weapons, which gives you some returns for TWF but is ridiculously expensive and weapons are quite vulnerable (some monster abilities like Babau Slime or Rust Monsters destroy them as well as Disjunction and the like) so investing a lot into one is a recipe for throwing gold down the drain.

[noce]

Wouldn't both of those delve into Crit fishing though?



It doesn't need to be the strongest, the idea this time was to have it strong enough to keep up in a mid op game and be fun.


So, does that champion of Corellon Larethian stack with the drow fighter variant and with Shadow blade strike?

Shadow Blade and Champion's Elegant Strike both give you an unnamed bonus, which stacks with everything, while Hit and Run fighter gives a competence bonus if I recall correctly, so it also stacks.

However, under normal circumstances, Shadow Blade and Champion of Corellon cannot stack, since the first applies only to Shadow Hand preferred weapons, while the latter only to a limited set of weapons, none of which is preferred by Shadow Hand.
Anyway, some people use the Aptitude weapon trick to apply Shadow Blade to any weapon. If your DM allows it, you could apply thrice you dexterity bonus to damage with an Aptitude longsword, rapier, elven thinblade, elven lightblade, elven court sword, or scimitar, or only twice if your enemy is not flat-footed, on top of the usual strength bonus.

Note that, while you apply only half stregth bonus to offhand attacks, you still apply thrice (or twice) your dexterity bonus to offhand attacks, too.

[Metahuman1]

Shadow Blade and Champion's Elegant Strike both give you an unnamed bonus, which stacks with everything, while Hit and Run fighter gives a competence bonus if I recall correctly, so it also stacks.

However, under normal circumstances, Shadow Blade and Champion of Corellon cannot stack, since the first applies only to Shadow Hand preferred weapons, while the latter only to a limited set of weapons, none of which is preferred by Shadow Hand.
Anyway, some people use the Aptitude weapon trick to apply Shadow Blade to any weapon. If your DM allows it, you could apply thrice you dexterity bonus to damage with an Aptitude longsword, rapier, elven thinblade, elven lightblade, elven court sword, or scimitar, or only twice if your enemy is not flat-footed, on top of the usual strength bonus.

Note that, while you apply only half stregth bonus to offhand attacks, you still apply thrice (or twice) your dexterity bonus to offhand attacks, too.

What about Weapons Finnesse's bonus to hit, does that stack in as well?

Yeah, I'd be counting on applying the multiplied attribute damage to every swing with both weapons.

Hmmmmm, yeah, that might be a problem. And then there is the problem of keeping a foe flat footed. Pity it's not flanked that's an easier condition to create consistently.

[noce]

What about Weapons Finnesse's bonus to hit, does that stack in as well?

Yeah, I'd be counting on applying the multiplied attribute damage to every swing with both weapons.

Hmmmmm, yeah, that might be a problem. And then there is the problem of keeping a foe flat footed. Pity it's not flanked that's an easier condition to create consistently.

Weapon Finesse would apply to weapons that can benefit from it.
In the Champion of Corellon list rapiers, elven lightblades, elven thinblades and elven court swords can benefit from Weapon Finesse, but court sword is two handed, so basically only rapiers, elven lightblades and elven thinblades.

There is a Shadow Hand maneuver, Cloak of Deception, that renders you invisible for one round as a swift action. As Greater Invisibility, so you can attack and stay invisible for the entire round.

Another cheap way to render the enemy flat footed is the Grease spell. If an enemy has less than 5 ranks in Balance, he is considered flat-footed while balancing.

[Psyren]

I would do PF Fighter, TWF Sword and Board build. I'd aim for respectable damage but high AC and some shield tricks. If Weapon Training counts as "bonus damage" I'd trade it away for some Advanced Weapon Training techniques or an archetype instead.

[Zaq]

Knowledge Devotion won't get you all the way to where you want to go, but it'll help.

[Telonius]

Probably recommended whether you have the usual damage boosters or not, but Wounding on both of the weapons will help with a lot of monsters. (Not much good against undead and constructs, of course).

[Darrin]

Some TWF strategies to consider:


Dragonfire Inspiration. Usually on a Bardblade or Bardsader chassis. Limited uses per day, and you may run into resistance/immunity, but doesn't have the qualification issues of precision damage.
MWF with lots of hands. A diopsid or thri-kreen with the insectile template is wielding eight weapons, or possibly ten with a Totemist 2 dip. My Vreeb Veebilbrixt (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22074602&postcount=79) build used this chassis to abuse standard actions with Multitasking, but ten weapon attacks with a moderate damage bonus is nothing to sneeze at.
Status conditions, such as stun, nausea, trip, etc. Nausea is frickin' *nasty*, hence my Three Mountain Morningstars (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18367975&postcount=68) build.
Wounding/bleeding. Dual cutting wheels with the Wind and Fire [style] feat from Secrets of Sarlona could be interesting.
Knowledge Devotion. Maybe a Ranger chassis with Education and/or Able Learner.

[daremetoidareyo]

Duskblade + arcane strike from complete warrior.

Prestige into Nar demonbinder or ur priest.

Take arcane preparation and go ultimate magus or southern magician and go eldritch theurge. Burn through spell slots like a monster.

Go dragonborn, take bronze Dragon lineage at level 3 and get combat reflexes. You'll smash a lot of face.

You'll need flaws to fit all the parts into the build

[The Viscount]

If you're TWFing with Shadow blade, you might consider Cavestalker. Its a little expensive since it requires ranger 2 to properly work, but 4 levels grant ewp with spiked chain and allows you to treat it as one-handed. Reach and TWF means you could rope combat reflexes into the mix, and possibly double hit for more return on investment.

[Fizban]

Wouldn't both of those delve into Crit fishing though?
It doesn't need to be the strongest, the idea this time was to have it strong enough to keep up in a mid op game and be fun.
Define mid-op.

No reason dex focus stops you from crit-fishing, it's essentially the only supported Fighter use of TWF. Weapon Spec+Master and Blood in the Water all work just fine. The difficulty depends on starting level since you can't get Weapon Mastery or Improved Crit until 8th and need a decent chunk of change for a pair of Earthbound kukris. If you have to fight your way through the Dire Wolf tier that's gonna be rough no matter what you do under those constraints.

And you'll tell me that Weapon Spec+Mastery is garbage, but take a look at how many hoops you're jumping through to get dex to damage or whatever else and see if it's really better than three feats with essentially no requirements that line up with the levels where you're not taking TWF.

[Metahuman1]

Mid Op. Reliable, takes the targets down but tends not to 1 round most really big bosses on there own, maybe has a trick or two for outside of combat, uses the prescribed fighting style while doing it.



Crit fishing Requires a nat roll of 15 or higher to do anything to start with, and that's AFTER I get my hooks on either scabbards of keen edge or the Improved Crit feat. I have no idea why I'd need Earthbound weapons cause Katori Resin would be essential just to do enough damage from mid levels on for it to be worth the effort to even try. And on top of that, the same things immune to it are the one's they'll throw at the rogue, and make the build just as useless just as fast.


Thus, the desire to avoid it.

[ericgrau]

Besides damage you go for other per hit effects. Like spell storing, poison (at levels 5-10 anyway), other X per hit class features, etc. I was going to say tripping but you said dex based. In PF you could still trip and a lot of other CMB stuff with dex though.

[Fizban]

takes the targets down but tends not to 1 round most really big bosses on there own,
Implies that it should 1-round non-boss targets, which is not what I would call mid-op.

Crit fishing Requires a nat roll of 15 or higher to do anything to start with, and that's AFTER I get my hooks on either scabbards of keen edge or the Improved Crit feat.
Which is why I'd not recommend it until 8th, at which point you have 4 or more rolls in which to hit a 15 for extra damage.

I have no idea why I'd need Earthbound weapons cause Katori Resin would be essential just to do enough damage from mid levels on for it to be worth the effort to even try.
Earthbound is a +1 property that gives you a +2 bonus against most foes, thus for 8,000gp you get +3 attack and damage for more reliable hits, crits, and multiply-able damage. You can get two of those for the price of a single Collision weapon, which is helpful when you need two weapons, and can afford the pair at 9th. Nothing would stop you from putting it on a Kaorti Resin weapon, aside from Kaorti Resin being ridiculous. But that does tell me where your mid-op is.

As for crit-immunity, Blood in the Water doesn't actually care if they take the extra damage from a crit, only that you critted, and neither do any of the other sources of base damage. Elegant Strike from CoC is nullified by crit-immunity, requires three feats (one of which is Mounted Combat of all things), and heavy armor proficiency- which if you insist on Hit and Run Fighter, will explicitly have to come from a feat. Four feats (actuallly 5 since you can't be Human) to get what, +4-8 damage against crittable targets only? The number of hoop jumps required to stack multiple sources of dex to damage isn't mid-op, it's nigh-theoretical op of a poorly supported archetype.

If you don't want crit fishing just pay the dex and TWF taxes and pretend you're otherwise two-handing. 2x weapon, 2x shadow blade instead of 3/2x str, and 2x spec/mastery/other buffs will match a two-handed weapon.

[Fuzzy McCoy]

One other option would be to go swordsage/shiba protector. Be massively dex/wis based, and tiger claw maneuvers make up for your lower attack bonus. There's also the stormguard warrior feat, but that does take a round of setup for the massive damage it provides.

[EndocrineBandit]

One of the elven blades acts as a short sword and rapier for feats and effects, that would enable the shadow hand CoCL to stack, wouldn't it?

[Gruftzwerg]

One of the elven blades acts as a short sword and rapier for feats and effects, that would enable the shadow hand CoCL to stack, wouldn't it?


Characters proficient with the elven lightblade may treat it as a rapier or a short sword for the purpose of any of the following feats: Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization.

Not for all feats, just "the following..." and effects aren't included either. So it won't work that way.

[Metahuman1]

Don't suppose a little Warblade weapon Aptitude class feature application would help that one?

[Gruftzwerg]

Don't suppose a little Warblade weapon Aptitude class feature application would help that one?

was already mentioned a few post ago already. I think that it boils down to DM decision/fiat.

Imho : NO, cause Aptitude is meant for legal choices and doesn't give you the option to make illegal choices. You may just switch your decision/focus on a new legal target.

[Jack_McSnatch]

A fencer with a rapier and a dagger, not going for crits, if they happen cool. It's so I could take crescent moon weapon style. Probably do half drow fighter/duskblade or psychic warrior. He'd be all focused on tripping, disarming, and the occaisional feint, but more importantly, riposte. Really high AC build, so the miss, he attacks. Probably take robilar's gambit so whether they hit or miss, he gets an attack.

Kinda leaning more towards psychic warrior. Level 13 duskblade would make up for that damage, but the psychic gets more feats, and some nicer movement effects. Maybe a few little things like deadly defense, or TWD, or the one that lets you hit twice on an AoO. Combat reflexes is necessary, of course.

[EndocrineBandit]

Shadowblade says the feat can be used as a substitution for weapon finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. Doesn't specify if it's for the character or the object being used. It might be RAI but, the light blade seems to be a special ability of the weapon itself.

Edit : The warblade class feature wouldn't allow it, but the aptitude weapon enchantment from the same book would allow it to slide, IIRC

[Metahuman1]

One other option would be to go swordsage/shiba protector. Be massively dex/wis based, and tiger claw maneuvers make up for your lower attack bonus. There's also the stormguard warrior feat, but that does take a round of setup for the massive damage it provides.

Hmmmmm,


Whats that feat that ranger Sub Level/AFC that lets you get Wis to AC when in no or light armor?

Seems like it might synergies nicely.

[Forrestfire]

Moon-Warded Ranger. In fact, I think Strength-based Ranger could be quite strong here; careful application of enemy spirit pouches and favored enemy choices can get you far, with Favored Power Attack and Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting.

[Jack_McSnatch]

Kay so I was tired, here's the build I'd use.


1: drow fighter 1, BaB +1, 2 flaws, expertise, reflexes, TWF, improved disarm
2: psywar 1, BaB +1, improved trip
3: fighter 2, BaB +2, TWD, Dodge
4: psywar 2, BaB +3, mobility
5: fighter 3, BaB +4
6: fighter 4, BaB +5, riposte, improved twf
7: psywar 3, BaB +6
8: psywar 4, BaB +7
9: psywar 5, BaB +7, two weapon rend, double hit
10: psywar 6, BaB +8
11: psywar 7, BaB +9
12: psywar 8, BaB +10, combat focus, combat defense
13: psywar 9, BaB +10
14: psywar 10, BaB +11
15: psywar 11, BaB +12, greater twf, robilar's gambit
16: psywar 12, BaB +13
17: psywar 13, BaB +13
18: psywar 14, BaB +14, elusive target, improved twd
19: psywar 15, BaB +15
20: psywar 16, BaB +16

So, obviously it's really rough and unpolished, but that's the general idea. Fight defensively, with everything you can drop into expertise. Make up the difference using your psychic powers. You aren't going to do a lot of individual damage, but all the attacks you're making will add up. Every attack of opportunity will be two attacks. Take movement powers and things that improve weapon damage. If you can hit reliably with both weapons, that two weapon rend will make up a lot.if you want you can take more two weapon defense instead of the tactical feats and combat focus feats. Maybe go the weapon specialization route

That's probably the best I've got. Please, alter and offer critcism as you see fit.

Edit; oops, thought twd was a dodge bonus. Fixed it with improved twd. Again, go ahead change it if you can think of something better, which you probably can. I didn't even look into ToB for this.

[Deophaun]

I prefer Dex+Wis for this, so you can do Shadow Blade + Shiba Protector. Throw in some Knowledge Devotion and top the whole thing with a pair of Collision Manyfang daggers.

I'm actually in the early stage of running this in a PbP game atm, with a healthy dose of Incarnum and Chameleon. Haven't rested on the Manyfang because, with some houserules (Shadow Blade isn't necessary, for one), that weapon will probably trivialize everything.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You'll want to consider the Knockback feat and the dungeon crasher fighter ACF from Dungeonscape. Knocking things into other things to deal extra damage and knocking them down is one of the few Nice Things that fighters get

[tiercel]

If you want more just something “different” as opposed to something specifically Dex-focused:

Spirit Shaman gish. Use a quarterstaff.

Druid spell list gives you all the staff-enhancing spells (Shillelagh, Brambles/Spikes, Entangling Staff), limited spell choices per day don’t bother you since you are gishing, split casting stats doesn’t bother you much because you’re gishing. Grab a few other gish buffs (Bite of the X line of spells, for example), even summoned flanking buddies.

In terms of flexibility, you’re a full caster with the druid list, with decent class features (admittedly, not wild shape, but if you had that you wouldn’t be TWFing), and even a few skills. If you need to be not-a-gish for some reason, you can change your load for spells retrieved for the day.

[EndocrineBandit]

Would you run straight SS or multiclass?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd say a Fighter build would be best, something like Fighter 9/ Warblade 10/ Fighter 1, which gets a decent amount of maneuvers/stances and can take Weapon Supremacy (PH2) with the Fighter 10 bonus feat. This way you can get (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery, plus all the necessary TWF feats, and plenty of feats to spare for some tactical or weapon mastery feats that don't see a lot of play. You'll be a bit MAD needing Str and Dex, along with Con and possibly Int for Combat Expertise or Cha for Intimidate tricks, but you'll deal decent enough damage and should easily hit everything since you wouldn't be power attacking.

Choose weapons that will go with whatever feats you'll be taking.

Quick Staff (CW) could be useful, especially with EWP: Longstaff (CV) to be immune to flanking, and this also makes the Two-Weapon Defense feats a lot more viable if you were planning on using them.

Three Mountains (CW) has been mentioned and I think it's a fantastic choice, especially if you can apply Melee Weapon Mastery twice to Morningstars, once for piercing and once for bludgeoning.

You can use a two-handed weapon and make offhand attacks with armor spikes, if you prefer.

A spiked shield would be a viable option, you could even make mainhand attacks with a heavy spiked shield and carry a light weapon or use a spiked gauntlet or even armor spikes for offhand attacks. In this case Blood-Spiked Charger (PH2) could be useful to take.


With the above build, you have some alternate class feature options for Fighter, namely Dungeoncrasher and Zhentarim Soldier (reflavored if appropriate). Often you'll want to be able to do more than just hit things with your stick, and Zhentarim Soldier is a great way to accomplish that, especially with Imperious Command and Never Outnumbered. I'd only take Dungeoncrasher if you go with a style that doesn't take a lot of feats, or if you plan to use bull rush maneuvers.

[chainer1216]

Using poison could be interesting, serpent kingdoms has a graft that gives you a poison bite with its save based on your con, complete warrior has neat alchemical capaules for weapons you can load your new infinite poison into.

[noce]

Spirit Shaman gish. Use a quarterstaff.

Druid spell list gives you all the staff-enhancing spells (Shillelagh, Brambles/Spikes, Entangling Staff), limited spell choices per day don’t bother you since you are gishing.

I think the mechanics of the spirit shaman hinder you the most when you pick such niche spells.

If, say, you retrieve Bull's Strength, you can cast it on yourself, the fighter, the rogue, etc.
If you retrieve Brambles, how many party members will have wood weapons?

[tiercel]

Would you run straight SS or multiclass?

Mostly straight SS: at least the first 11 levels. If I thought I’d actually get significant play above that level, I might consider PrCs or dips. I wouldn’t want to lose much in the way of caster level, and I’d prefer not to drop below medium BAB progression if I’m gishing (this is no Clericzilla).


I think the mechanics of the spirit shaman hinder you the most when you pick such niche spells.

If, say, you retrieve Bull's Strength, you can cast it on yourself, the fighter, the rogue, etc.
If you retrieve Brambles, how many party members will have wood weapons?

Given Brambles’s duration, I’m casting it every combat I reasonably can. By time I can cast it more than 4 times per day, I can also retrieve more than one 2nd level spell.

No, I’m not going to compete with DMM Persistomancy, but that’s not the point. Just looking for something a bit different on the TWF front that will probably still fly in a relatively lactose-intolerant group.