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View Full Version : Original System Brainstorming a system of "Active Defense"



GalacticAxekick
2017-09-26, 04:45 PM
While I'm satisfied with most of D&Ds design choices, one that stands out to me is gaining hit points as you level up. It means that experienced adventurers and powerful monsters can take dozens of wounds before collapsing (at least from weaker, less experienced counterparts).

The alternative would be to keep hit points more or less constant: maybe a single hit die + a constitution bonus. This preserves the realism of life-threatening wounds, but reduces most fights into a question of who can hit first. Your initiative, reach and accuracy become all important, leaving no room for round-to-round decision-making. No tactics or play, really.

I'd like to brainstorm a system that makes defense more active. Obviously the game would need overhaul to accommodate this kind of change, but first I'd like to nail down what changes are happening. Here are some ideas that come to mind:


Evasion: Replace AC with an stat representing your ability to avoid contact with the weapon or effect. Your score would be 10 + Dexterity in no/light armour and 5 + Strength in heavy armour. Maybe get rid of medium armour as a concept.
Resistance: Armours purpose would be to reduce damage taken by a certain number. Better armour offers greater damage reduction, and might be effective against a greater variety of damage types.
As a consequence, combat is about overcoming your foe's Evasion and maintaining your own, and not about trading blows. Blocking, parrying and dodging become as essential as attacking.
When heavy armour gets involved, combat is about overcoming your foe's Resistance and/or maintaining your own. Precision damage such as critical hits and sneak attacks might accomplish this.
Leveling up can't grant additional hit dice: only improved ability scores and new features. The difference between a 1st and 20th level Fighter isn't their HP, but their ability to evade and land blows.

Any suggestions on how to expand or refine these ideas?

Grod_The_Giant
2017-09-26, 06:38 PM
The difficulty with overhauling 5e's damage mechanics to any significant degree is that the hp/damage ratio is the primary way the game scales-- messing with it too much strikes me as a really good way to screw up your balance. So, in my mind, any sort of overhaul has to hew fairly close to the original totals, or else you'll functionally be rewriting the entire game.

For inspiration, I'd probably look to something like 3e's Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) system-- have your pool of virtual hit points that's roughly the size of a standard character's HP, and have a second, much smaller pool of actual hit points which can only be depleted under specific circumstances. I might also look at Exalted 3e's health system, which is probably my favorite take on the virtual-hit-point thing. In a nutshell, there are two types of attacks: withering and decisive. Withering attacks steal your foe's initiative, and are affected by strength, weapons, armor, and all the rest; decisive attacks damage their health directly, but the damage is solely based on your current initiative. Fights are about building up a bunch of momentum (aka initiative) and unleashing it in a single devastating strike-- which, I think, sounds kinda like what you're interested in? Maybe?

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-27, 12:40 PM
In the V&W system, a novice and veteran alike go down in just a few blows, which is exactly what I want thematically. This is represented mechanically by wound points, which do not scale. And in the V&W system, the primary advantage of a veteran is their ability to avoid wounds entirely, which is again what I want thematically. This is represented mechanically by vitality points, which do scale. So this is definitely a step in the right direction! But because the only reliable way to target WP is to deplete VP first, they're effectively one continuous pool. They're HP.

Ideally, there'd be some mechanic to represent sneaking up on someone, grappling someone, stunning someone, or otherwise ignoring their ability to avoid damage/VP and targeting them/WP directly. The V&W system offers critical hits for that and nothing else. Maybe I could specify more ways than sheer luck to score crits?

Also, ideally there'd be some mechanic to bounce back from situational disadvantages. VP is worn down and never recovered (at least, not in the span of one combat), while an open guard can shut the next moment. Maybe the crit-based system would solve this by having opportunities for crits open and close?

Grod_The_Giant
2017-09-27, 08:27 PM
Ideally, there'd be some mechanic to represent sneaking up on someone, grappling someone, stunning someone, or otherwise ignoring their ability to avoid damage/VP and targeting them/WP directly. The V&W system offers critical hits for that and nothing else. Maybe I could specify more ways than sheer luck to score crits?
It's worth remembering that, as the 3e system has it, WP will be between 5 (d6 HD, -1 Con) and 17 (d12 HD, 5 Con), with most probably falling in the 8-14 range. For just about anyone, that's "one good shot and you're dead; two if you're unlucky." You'd want to be real careful with any mechanic that lets you bypass your normal vitality points; "crits and surprise go straight to WP" sounds good until you realize that one surprise round will leave a 20th level party dead.

If you want a lot of back-and-forth flow in the midst of battle... maybe split a normal hit point pool roughly in half? That way you can have your vitality points/momentum/whatever you want to call it fluctuate without prolonging the battle too much or turning it into a "whoops, you bypassed my VP, now I'm dead" type situation.

Another idea, using 5e's own systems more heavily, would be to lean on exhaustion levels to represent serious, hit point-bypassing blows. If you hit someone who's surprised or stunned, or if you hit them with their special weakness or whatever, you also deal (one or more?) levels of exhaustion. A few whacks like that will kill anyone in short order, or at least mess 'em up enough that they won't be happy about it.

Oooh, how 'bout something with a little Exalted styling to it, like so?

Every character's momentum starts at 10.
For every 5 points of damage you deal, you steal one point of your target's momentum. A successful combat maneuver steals two points; taking the Dodge action restores two points. (Insert more fine-tuning here)
While suffering from status conditions, you lose momentum.
If you strike a target with lower momentum, you can spend your own momentum to inflict levels of exhaustion-- for every 10 points you spend, you inflict one level of exhaustion.

Basically, when you start winning a fight-- either through dealing more damage, or through inflicting conditions and maneuvering-- you start racking up a momentum lead, which you can cash in to deal devastating hits. Drastic swings in the flow of the fight can be represented by changing momentum, letting the edge pass back and forth without instant-killing anyone.


Also, ideally there'd be some mechanic to bounce back from situational disadvantages. VP is worn down and never recovered (at least, not in the span of one combat), while an open guard can shut the next moment. Maybe the crit-based system would solve this by having opportunities for crits open and close?
I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about here?

Kaskus
2017-09-28, 01:38 AM
Going off the v/w system, you could have crits do either critical damage to vitality or 1 damage to wounds. Same with surprise.

Alternatively or additionally, you could say that any attack that deals damage in excess of the targets Con score also deals 1 damage to wounds.

As long as they have vitality, a single blow cannot deal more than 1 wound but once vitality is gone, all damage goes directly to wounds. This also gives attackers the choice in crits on whether to pick at wounds or widdle away at vitality.

For precision damage, they could forego 1 die to deal 1 point directly to wounds (2 dice?). The choice would need to be made before rolling precision damage.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-28, 11:15 AM
It's worth remembering that, as the 3e system has it, WP will be between 5 (d6 HD, -1 Con) and 17 (d12 HD, 5 Con), with most probably falling in the 8-14 range. For just about anyone, that's "one good shot and you're dead; two if you're unlucky." You'd want to be real careful with any mechanic that lets you bypass your normal vitality points; "crits and surprise go straight to WP" sounds good until you realize that one surprise round will leave a 20th level party dead.One or two good shots is exactly the lethality I'm going for. I'd like the bulk of combat to be pushing through the enemy's defense, while dealing real damage is the end.

You're absolutely right that I need to be careful with mechanics that penetrate defenses/ignore VP. Wiping out a party or ending every encounter in a surprise round would be cheap. But there has to be an accessible mechanic for penetrating defenses, or VP and WP are indistinguishable from HP. There's no game of defense and penetrating defense. There's just hacking away.


If you want a lot of back-and-forth flow in the midst of battle... maybe split a normal hit point pool roughly in half? That way you can have your vitality points/momentum/whatever you want to call it fluctuate without prolonging the battle too much or turning it into a "whoops, you bypassed my VP, now I'm dead" type situation."You bypassed my defenses, now I'm dead" is exactly what I want. Increasing WP balances the system, but only by making it more like the HP system I'd like to escape.


I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you're talking about here?To reiterate, I'd like the system to be about bypassing/putting up defenses and not about hacking damage. But bypassing defenses definitely shouldn't be as easy as making one sneak attack or whathaveyou. It should be a progressive and reverseable process (e.g wasting the foe's defensive reaction, knocking them prone, pinning them, then attacking an exposed chunks in armour: a process with three harmless steps a foe could bounce back from). VP do not model this because they do not return in combat.

The exhaustion-based and Exalted systems you described are another step in te right direction though, because they move away from permanent damage and towards temporary effects that open the enemy up. I'll give those some thought!

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-28, 11:20 AM
Going off the v/w system, you could have crits do either critical damage to vitality or 1 damage to wounds. Same with surprise.

Alternatively or additionally, you could say that any attack that deals damage in excess of the targets Con score also deals 1 damage to wounds.

As long as they have vitality, a single blow cannot deal more than 1 wound but once vitality is gone, all damage goes directly to wounds. This also gives attackers the choice in crits on whether to pick at wounds or widdle away at vitality.

For precision damage, they could forego 1 die to deal 1 point directly to wounds (2 dice?). The choice would need to be made before rolling precision damage.I think bypassing vitality to deal damage 1 point at a time is too little to preserve the lethality. Ideally bypassing vitality would be difficult (demanding almost every action you make throughout the fight), but totally lethal, rather than easy (demanding one crit or sneak attack) but relatively minor.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-09-28, 03:32 PM
To reiterate, I'd like the system to be about bypassing/putting up defenses and not about hacking damage. But bypassing defenses definitely shouldn't be as easy as making one sneak attack or whathaveyou. It should be a progressive and reverseable process (e.g wasting the foe's defensive reaction, knocking them prone, pinning them, then attacking an exposed chunks in armour: a process with three harmless steps a foe could bounce back from). VP do not model this because they do not return in combat.
And that's by no means a bad idea for an RPG. But I don't think it's going to work with D&D, and especially not 5e. As I mentioned earlier, the damage/HP ratio is *the* key part of how the system scales. About 90% of stuff you get as you level up is about keeping that ratio in line, including the vast majority of spells and virtually every class ability that currently exists. If you introduce an alternate damage system that lets you bypass all that, you're jetisoning so much of the existing system that you might as well start from scratch and write your own.

I'd also be leery of putting too much regenerating health-type stuff in. 5e's other key point of balance is attrition. A decision I despise, but there's a strong expectation that you're fighting a bunch of weak encounters that aren't really dangerous, but which sap per-rest resources at a steady rate. If you get rid of that, be cautious about how class-vs-class balance shifts.

Composer99
2017-09-28, 04:15 PM
IMO as long as you're looking at D&D combat as a rigid turn-based abstraction of a fluid real-time event, with the action economy standing in for the cut and thrust of attempted blows, parries, near-misses, and so on, I would say that D&D's hit point system basically represents exactly what you're looking for.

As characters gain levels, they get luckier and/or better at turning lethal blows aside or evading them, suffering a scratch or bruising or light gashes instead of fatal injuries. Instead of back-and-forth actions or what-have-you, D&D abstractly represents this superior ability to not die via increased hit points. Once your defences are worn down (that is, your hit points are low enough), or you suffer some catastrophic injury (a critical hit or other massive damage), you finally get two inches of steel in between your ribs, or whatever.

Some amount of hit points might be considered "meat points", which a VP/WP system makes explicit.

Anyway, if you don't care for the mechanics of hit points, well and good. I don't know about recent editions, but if memory serves, 2nd/3rd edition of Shadowrun (whatever was current 20 years ago) had an injury system closer to what you're looking for, although it might be a little too lethal for heroic fantasy.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-28, 04:50 PM
IMO as long as you're looking at D&D combat as a rigid turn-based abstraction of a fluid real-time event, with the action economy standing in for the cut and thrust of attempted blows, parries, near-misses, and so on, I would say that D&D's hit point system basically represents exactly what you're looking for.

As characters gain levels, they get luckier and/or better at turning lethal blows aside or evading them, suffering a scratch or bruising or light gashes instead of fatal injuries. Instead of back-and-forth actions or what-have-you, D&D abstractly represents this superior ability to not die via increased hit points. Once your defences are worn down (that is, your hit points are low enough), or you suffer some catastrophic injury (a critical hit or other massive damage), you finally get two inches of steel in between your ribs, or whatever.I may have been unclear.

I'm looking for is a system where defenses can fail at any time: where the player is responsible to put up theirs and to penetrate the enemy's: where a 20th level Fighter can take exactly one arrow and die because of a compromised or thoughtless defense. You've described precisely why D&D's hp system is not what I'm looking for.

Fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken or Smash Bros might give an idea of the dynamic I'm looking for, albeit in real time instead of turn-based gameplay. Players are competing to thwart the enemy's attacks and land their own counterattacks without themselves being blocked, dodged, or otherwise exposed and countered.

In a game like SSB4 or Marvel vs Capcom, landing one hit can be enough to instantly kill your opponent. But because the games focus on defending and penetrating defense, fighters can go back and forth fighting for the one opening that ends the match. That's what I'd like for 5th edition.


Anyway, if you don't care for the mechanics of hit points, well and good. I don't know about recent editions, but if memory serves, 2nd/3rd edition of Shadowrun (whatever was current 20 years ago) had an injury system closer to what you're looking for, although it might be a little too lethal for heroic fantasy.I'll look into that! Lethality is the aim, as long as it's rooted in the player's decisions more than chance.

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-28, 06:19 PM
And that's by no means a bad idea for an RPG. But I don't think it's going to work with D&D, and especially not 5e. As I mentioned earlier, the damage/HP ratio is *the* key part of how the system scales. About 90% of stuff you get as you level up is about keeping that ratio in line, including the vast majority of spells and virtually every class ability that currently exists. If you introduce an alternate damage system that lets you bypass all that, you're jetisoning so much of the existing system that you might as well start from scratch and write your own.

I'd also be leery of putting too much regenerating health-type stuff in. 5e's other key point of balance is attrition. A decision I despise, but there's a strong expectation that you're fighting a bunch of weak encounters that aren't really dangerous, but which sap per-rest resources at a steady rate. If you get rid of that, be cautious about how class-vs-class balance shifts.I'd expect no less, but I'd be comfortable overhauling a lot of the game to fit any system we come up with. Homebrew is my hobby after all, and not something with time pressure or commitment.

I'd probably start with how martial characters work at low levels, then how they scale, and finally how magic gets involved. If the result is a new system with 5e classes and borrowed mechanics, so be it.

Grod_The_Giant
2017-09-28, 06:32 PM
I'd expect no less, but I'd be comfortable overhauling a lot of the game to fit any system we come up with. Homebrew is my hobby after all, and not something with time pressure or commitment.

I'd probably start with how martial characters work at low levels, then how they scale, and finally how magic gets involved. If the result is a new system with 5e classes and borrowed mechanics, so be it.
Okay, well, if we're starting from scratch and just keeping some of the cosmetic 5e stuff, that's a different story.

From the sounds of it, you sort of want ablative defenses, yes? Where to really injure someone, you have to (for example) pin down their Evade, overcome their Parry, and bypass their Armor? With different strategies and special abilities serving to bypass various parts of that chain?

GalacticAxekick
2017-09-28, 07:33 PM
Okay, well, if we're starting from scratch and just keeping some of the cosmetic 5e stuff, that's a different story.I'll change this thread's tag to Original System in a bit.

Ability scores, saves, skills, equipment and the general shape of encounters (initiative, movement, actions, reactions) will stick around unless they get in the way, but we know most class features will get in the way.


From the sounds of it, you sort of want ablative defenses, yes? Where to really injure someone, you have to (for example) pin down their Evade, overcome their Parry, and bypass their Armor? With different strategies and special abilities serving to bypass various parts of that chain?'xactly

Terra Reveene
2017-10-01, 06:47 AM
You could implement a system where each character has a number of block dice they can use during other creatures' turns. Each block die they roll lowers the attack roll of an attacking creature depending on the total they roll on said dice.
You decide how many block dice you're rolling all at once after you've seen the attack roll.
The dice should probably be d6s, since those are the most common dice and have the second lowest variance (well, third if you count d3s).
You regain all (or just a number) of block dice at the beginning of your turn.
You could also trade in extra attacks for block dice or vice versa. This way an all-out attack would likely leave you with nothing to defend yourself with, but not attacking at all could end up giving you enough dice to be practically invincible (can trade in attacks for block dice no matter which action you take. So the 'dodge' action is particularly good at defending yourself with (although personally I think 'guard' sounds more accurate then 'dodge'. How would a knight in full armor go about dodging attacks? lol)).

Could also, instead of having the block dice being used on attack rolls, have them apply to damage rolls instead. In those fighting games you mentioned, you rarely actually dodge away from attacks. They do hit you, but they just don't hit you anywhere where they actually do any damage. So the block dice could be used in response to taking damage, lowering the damage by the number rolled on the block dice. Instead of gagueing how many dice you have to use in order to not take one of possibly two blows needed to die, you have to figure out how many dice you want to use on reducing an opponent's damage.
This'd not give the result you say you want (one or two blows is fatal), since it'd likely make it so that you can take a good many blows before going down (although if you ever lose all your block dice during a round, any hit is likely going to kill you).

It'd be similar to Cardfight Vanguard in that regard, as well as Warhammer Fantasy. In Warhammer Fantasy, you get dispel dice during your opponent's magic phase that you can use to counter opposing spells. Though you have fewer dispell dice than your opponent has casting dice, so you have to be careful about what you counterspell.
In Cardfight Vanguard, you have cards that can be used to block attacks by lowering the attack's power, potentially causing it to deal no damage at all (they have to exceed whatever it is they're attacking's power. Lowering the attack below your own dude's power causes the attack to fail).

So, it's a mix of those two systems. I think this is about as simple as a system such as the one you're trying to build can be made. I do have another suggestion, but it's far more difficult to pull off well, so I'll wait with that until you decide whether or not to go with this.

GalacticAxekick
2017-10-02, 12:46 PM
Because of the small but growing effect size, low variance and recovery at the start of your turn, blcok dice are very similar to the parry reaction offered by the Defensive Duelist feat: a bonus to the user's AC against one attack equal to their proficiency bonus.

I'd definitely make the parry reaction the model for active defenses. Fighters might have a true parry while Rogues might dodge, Barbarians might brace, and spellcasters might cast a version of Blade Ward to that effect. Point being, you're definitely looking in the same direction as me!

I ran into a problem with parrying, though, and I anticipate the same problem with block dice. Either:

Fighter A attacks Fighter B, only for B to parry or block. Fighter B attacks A, only for A to block or parry. Forever.
or Fighter A attacks Fighter B, and B parries or blocks, only to roll poorly and die nonetheless.


In neither case does the new ability make defense and penetrating defense a more active part of the game. They either make direct, symmetrical combat impossible or leave it just as unsafe as if they didn't exist.

I don't think they're bad mechanics, but additional mechanics would need to accompany them to compete for the user's reaction/dice and/or overcome them.


You could also trade in extra attacks for block dice or vice versa. This way an all-out attack would likely leave you with nothing to defend yourself with, but not attacking at all could end up giving you enough dice to be practically invincible (can trade in attacks for block dice no matter which action you take. So the 'dodge' action is particularly good at defending yourself with (although personally I think 'guard' sounds more accurate then 'dodge'. How would a knight in full armor go about dodging attacks? lol)).Trading attacks for block dice or reactions is another interesting concept! It creates one way to overcome the enemy's blocks/parries: to attack more than they chose to defend. But it also means that total defense is an option. If it's reliable, we're back to infinite block fights. If it's unreliable, we're back to luck-based death.

(And as a side note, metal armor isn't terribly heavy! A full suit of plate armour only weighed about 20kg/44lbs. Knights were expected to sprint, swim, climb, leap and dance in their suits. Dodging is far from farfetched)


Could also, instead of having the block dice being used on attack rolls, have them apply to damage rolls instead. In those fighting games you mentioned, you rarely actually dodge away from attacks. They do hit you, but they just don't hit you anywhere where they actually do any damage. So the block dice could be used in response to taking damage, lowering the damage by the number rolled on the block dice. Instead of gagueing how many dice you have to use in order to not take one of possibly two blows needed to die, you have to figure out how many dice you want to use on reducing an opponent's damage.

This'd not give the result you say you want (one or two blows is fatal), since it'd likely make it so that you can take a good many blows before going down (although if you ever lose all your block dice during a round, any hit is likely going to kill you).No, using a die or reaction to block and reduce damage would be cool! It's thematically justified, and it shifts combat away from just taking hits and towards choosing how and when to defend yourself and overcome enemy defense. It also doesn't come with the extremes of evading attacks, since unreliable damage reduction is still damage reduction, while unreliable evasion is life or death.

I'd definitely like to expand on the system, but this is a great start!


I do have another suggestion, but it's far more difficult to pull off well, so I'll wait with that until you decide whether or not to go with this.I'm curious. Hit me!

Terra Reveene
2017-10-02, 06:12 PM
The other idea was to have characters choose where they block: high, medium, or low. So attackers had to declare which one of the three they choose to attack and the blocker chooses if they'll block the attack. This'd mean they'd be vulnerable in the other two areas (say attacker A attacks with a high swing. blocker B decides to block it, meaning he's commited this round to blocking mostly high swings-he gets a bonus to any attacks that are directed higher up.)

It'd be quite messy trying to make the system feel fair. It's similar to fighting games though. Once you choose to block a low attack, you'll be vulnerable higher up.

Either way, if you like both the ideas I proposed, then there's no reason why we couldn't do a combination. Evasive characters could get the kind of block dice that lower opposing attack rolls. Rogues would be a prime candidate, with perhaps other characters such as bards, warlocks, monks, and fighters going in second and most other classes going in last.
Characters that tend to want to brace through blows could get the kind of block dice that lowers damage from opposing attacks. Barbarians would be a prime candidate for that, with perhaps paladins, fighters, and monks going in second and most other classes going in last.

In fact, couldn't we just tie these in with the old saves? Reflex, Fortitude, Will? Each of them could represent a different kind of active dice. Reflex being the evasive dice, Fortitude being the tanky stat, and Will being the dispel type.

As for two characters hitting each other forever and constantly blocking: Limit different dice to different kinds of attacks. Piercing attacks are likely harder to brace but easier to evade, slashing attacks are likely harder to evade but easier to brace. Both of these damage types can be simulated with almost any sword-type weapon. So in your example where fighter A hits fighter B to no effect, he could note what kind of dice his opponent used to negate the attack in an attempt to judge how many of those kinds of dice they have. Later on in the fight, once fighter A has done a few attacks and is fairly sure whether he should try and jab his opponent or slash him, he can go into an all out attack once he gets his opponent to waste some of his weaker dice.
As for bludgeoning damage: most bludgeoning weapons can't slash or pierce. But they could fill the role of costing extra dice to block/dodge. This way you wouldn't get those moments where you know whether to stab or slash at an opponent for a greater effect than a bludgeoning weapon, but you'd eventually wear them down anyways. It'd be the middleground for when you're not sure what your opponent is weak to and don't have time to find out (kind of like a shotgun for beginners in most zombie games. Aim in the general direction of the target and it does its thing pretty well without much effort. But an experienced player could do even better depending on what zombies they're fighting and which weapon the player has at hand. See what I mean?).

The dice for spells is a bit more difficult. I think allowing a mix of dodging, bracing, and dispelling would be the way to go, considering how strong spells are to just single normal attacks.



And to make sure rogues, monks, and such don't end up in situations where they have too few dice to dodge and have to brace, they can still attempt to dodge before bracing. An order of sorts.

You can first attempt to dodge an attack or spell, rolling a number of dice in an attempt to dodge out of the way. Then, if it's a spell and it'd still hit, you can attempt to dispel it (most likely limited to spellcasters. We'll see how that pans out when we get there). If it's not a spell, or you just can't or couldn't dispel it, you can brace for impact, rolling a number of dice in an attempt to reduce the damage you take.


I'll see if I can't get a draft of a wizard, barbarian, and/or rogue tomorrow as well as some solid rules down. Those classes seem fairly archetypal for each of the three different kinds of active defenses, so they should cover quite a bit of ground. The other classes are likely going to be a bigger mix of different kinds of defenses.

Terra Reveene
2017-10-03, 08:29 AM
http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/rkVxiJ-3Z

Here, let me know what you think.

EDIT: Just realized I did a goof with the Fortitude dice on each of the classes, they're supposed to be higher.
Overall, I think it's going to be very difficult to get a good amount of dice for each character, so before doing anything else when it comes to the amount that each character get, I think there's gonna have to be lots of changes made to how the game plays. I don't thint I'd want to go the whole distance of coming up with a whole system for that.
What I gave to you can be a good start though. If you want any advice or anything, then let me know. I'd be happy to help. I don't want to be doing any more rules writing though, that's something you'll have to do yourself. I wish you luck.

Doorhandle
2017-10-04, 07:27 AM
While I'm satisfied with most of D&Ds design choices, one that stands out to me is gaining hit points as you level up. It means that experienced adventurers and powerful monsters can take dozens of wounds before collapsing (at least from weaker, less experienced counterparts).

The alternative would be to keep hit points more or less constant: maybe a single hit die + a constitution bonus. This preserves the realism of life-threatening wounds, but reduces most fights into a question of who can hit first. Your initiative, reach and accuracy become all important, leaving no room for round-to-round decision-making. No tactics or play, really.

I'd like to brainstorm a system that makes defense more active. Obviously the game would need overhaul to accommodate this kind of change, but first I'd like to nail down what changes are happening. Here are some ideas that come to mind:


Evasion: Replace AC with an stat representing your ability to avoid contact with the weapon or effect. Your score would be 10 + Dexterity in no/light armour and 5 + Strength in heavy armour. Maybe get rid of medium armour as a concept.
Resistance: Armours purpose would be to reduce damage taken by a certain number. Better armour offers greater damage reduction, and might be effective against a greater variety of damage types.
As a consequence, combat is about overcoming your foe's Evasion and maintaining your own, and not about trading blows. Blocking, parrying and dodging become as essential as attacking.
When heavy armour gets involved, combat is about overcoming your foe's Resistance and/or maintaining your own. Precision damage such as critical hits and sneak attacks might accomplish this.
Leveling up can't grant additional hit dice: only improved ability scores and new features. The difference between a 1st and 20th level Fighter isn't their HP, but their ability to evade and land blows.

Any suggestions on how to expand or refine these ideas?

So does evasion work like temporary hitpoints in this example, or it is like A.C except it goes down if you haven't dodged in a while? I'm not sure how it's different than normal A.C at this point, aside from Armour giving damage resistance.

Also my 2 cents (that would require a complete game rework...oh well.)

* Have hitpoints that scale, but only very slowly.
* As the players level up, they get more active defence abilities: but they are all limited use in some way, with a higher limit the better the defence. So, for example, an ability that lets you ignore all damage from one opponent for one round might be once a combat, while an ability to block would damage your shield, while a dodge ability would be limited by total movement and if you can;t move a minimum distance you get hit anyway.
*Tougher classes get a higher proportion of defensive abilities compared to squisher classes.

Basically, it would be like Paranoia combat in exalted, only you have more ability flexibility than "use perfect defence forever."

GalacticAxekick
2017-10-04, 10:12 AM
So does evasion work like temporary hitpoints in this example, or it is like A.C except it goes down if you haven't dodged in a while? I'm not sure how it's different than normal A.C at this point, aside from Armour giving damage resistance.It's fundamentally identical to AC; it's a static DC that attacks against you must meet in order to hit. The key thematic difference is that it represents your ability to evade attacks, which armour only hinders. Mechanically, this means light armour does not contribute to the stat, and that heavy armour actually reduces it. Armour instead increases damage resistance.

Because evasion and resistance are distinct, lightly and heavily armoured characters need to defend themselves in unique ways, and unique strategies exist to overcome their defenses. A character built for incredible evasion will need to be wary of things they simply cannot dodge, like a fireball (ironically). A character built for incredible resistance will need to be wary of things that penetrate their armour (like a sneak attack). For instance.


* Have hitpoints that scale, but only very slowly.If one clean hit with any lethal weapon, like a club or dagger, can't kill a character, the system isn't as lethal as I'm setting out to make it. Maybe the highest level characters can take a couple clean hits, but for any normal person—even the world's greatest warrior—a knife in the chest is a knife in the chest.


* As the players level up, they get more active defence abilities: but they are all limited use in some way, with a higher limit the better the defence. So, for example, an ability that lets you ignore all damage from one opponent for one round might be once a combat, while an ability to block would damage your shield, while a dodge ability would be limited by total movement and if you can;t move a minimum distance you get hit anyway.Acquiring active defenses as you level is the goal, yes. What's difficult is pinning down which mechanics work out to a balanced and dynamic system, since some of the mechanics I've considered (like parrying and riposting) basically result in stalemates or roulettes. I really love your dodge idea though, for using action economy rather than resource economy. More ideas in that direction would be fantastic.


*Tougher classes get a higher proportion of defensive abilities compared to squisher classes.I'm skeptical of this idea, just because no class should be at higher risk of death/failure than any other. Rather that higher and lower defenses, maybe different defenses? A Barbarian might have defenses suited to trading blows on the front lines while a Rogue has defenses suited to entering and exiting the fray safely. A Rogue caught in the front lines wouldn't last more than a few rounds, and a Barbarian running in and out of the fray would very quickly find an arrow in her back, but neither has lesser or greater defenses in the grand scale of things.

MoleMage
2017-10-04, 08:42 PM
A sample concept, built loosely based on existing suggestions. Take the parts you like, as it's kinda the kitchen sink of active defense.

Hit Points
Characters no longer gain Hit Points every level. Instead, they have Hit Points equal to their first level maximum. Certain classes should grant increased Hit Points at certain milestones (especially Fighter, Barbarian, and Paladin, but this can also be used to distinguish Sorcerers from other spellcasters, for example).

Blocking
Characters may block attacks which successfully strike them in combat. Normally, a character can block a single attack or damage source for every Attack they could make with an Attack action, but certain actions and class features grant more. When you block a source of damage, reduce that damage by an amount equal to the Block Rating of your weapon plus your Strength modifier. Once you have blocked your maximum number of attacks, you cannot block more attacks that turn.

Rough Block Ratings (individual weapons could be better or worse)
1h Simple Melee Weapons: 1d4
2h Simple Melee Weapons: 1d6
Ranged Simple Weapons: Cannot Block
1h Martial Melee Weapons: 1d6
2h Martial Melee Weapons: 1d8
Ranged Martial Weapons: 1d4
Unarmed: Cannot Block

Light Weapons can only be used to block if two are wielded together, but have improved block rating.
Shields no longer grant increased Armor Rating/Avoidance. Instead, a character wielding a Shield may use their Reaction to block, and Shields have a Block Rating of 1d10.
Finesse Weapons suffer no penalty for a negative Strength modifier when blocking. They do not add their Dexterity modifier to blocks.

Avoidance and Armor Rating
Armor Class is replaced for all characters with the Avoidance statistic. Avoidance is a measure of how likely a character is to get hit in combat: higher avoidance means lower chance to be struck in combat.

By default, a character's Avoidance is equal to 10 + their Dexterity modifier. Taking the Dodge action grants +5 Avoidance until your next turn.

Armor Rating is a new statistic that measures how much damage a character has to take before it affects them. Armor rating ranges from 3 (for Leather Armor) to 9 (for Plate). Damage sources below the listed amount (after Blocks) have no effect on the character. Damage sources in excess of the listed amount affect the character normally. This allows characters wearing heavy armor to gain more benefit from their blocks and ignore smaller hits, while still being one solid hit away from falling.

Attacking and Damage
Characters no longer add their attribute bonuses to attack rolls or damage rolls. This allows damage to be normalized, shifting the focus for success onto actions and blocks, rather than having the best stats.

Openings
Certain circumstances allow a character to create an Opening in their target's defenses. The next attack against a target whose defenses are Opened cannot be blocked and ignores Armor Rating. Avoidance is unaffected. A critical hit always creates an Opening, in addition to its normal effects.

When attacking an Opening, a character adds their Strength bonus (or Dexterity bonus, for ranged or finesse weapons) to their damage.

Sample Modifications:

Rogues' Uncanny Dodge ability improves Blocks. Rogues with this feature may Block an additional time, and add their Dexterity rating to all block attempts. This replaces normal Uncanny Dodge.
Monks' Martial Arts ability grants them an additional Block. A Monk may also spend a Ki point to Block, even if they have none remaining. Finally, a Monk may use the Block Rating or his Martial Arts damage rating when blocking (even if the weapon couldn't otherwise block, such as a short sword or unarmed), whichever is better. This is in addition to normal effects of Martial Arts.
Monks' Deflect Missiles ability allows them to use their Reaction to double the result a Block against a ranged attack. This replaces normal Deflect Missiles.
Unarmored Defense no longer grants increased Avoidance. Instead, characters with this class feature add the defining stat to all Block attempts in addition to Strength bonus. (Wisdom for monks, Constitution for Barbarian).
The Protection fighting style grants an additional Block, and allows the character to Block for their allies within 5 feet(Blocks used in this way are cumulative with allies' existing Blocks).
The Two-Weapon fighting style grants an additional Block and allows the character to block with Light Weapons even if wielded individually, in addition to its normal benefits.
The blade ward cantrip grants the caster an extra Block this turn.
The shield spell causes all of the caster's blocks to have a rating of 1d10 and use their casting modifier instead of Constitution until their next turn. It becomes a bonus action instead of a reaction.
Extra Attack, as well as any class feature that mimics it, grants an equal number of extra blocks.
While raging, Barbarians gain an Armor Rating equal to 3+their Rage damage bonus. This is in addition to all of the normal effects of rage.
Mage Armor now gives an Armor Rating of 4 for the duration.
Barbarians' Reckless Attack now consumes one of their Blocks, instead of granting Advantage on attacks against the Barbarian. It's previous effect is unchanged.
College of Valor Bards' Combat Inspiration can now be applied to Block rolls.
The Defense fighting style increases Armor Rating, not Avoidance.
Hunter Rangers' Multiattack Defense allows them to Block all attacks from a single creature using only a single Block. This replaces normal Multiattack Defense.
Rogues' Sneak Attack damage only applies when they attack an Opening. To compensate, Rogues should receive a class feature that more readily creates Openings.
Assassin Rogues' Assassinate now causes any attack they make against a surprised target to be made as though against an Opening.
Draconic Bloodline Sorcerers' Draconic Resilience now grants an Armor Rating of 4. It grants increased Hit Points only at 1st level and each time they gain an Ability Score Improvement, regardless of which class grants the ASI.


If this system, or any system with your stated goals is put into play, how would healing and recovery from resting work?

EDIT: I ran out of steam when it came to creating Openings. Having specific effects that create them is crucial to making this system effective and fun. I'll leave the actual methods open to the reader.