Why would a cleric choose an evil diety over a neutral diety?

[Zhentarim]

Couldn't a cleric of a Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral diety live it up in this life, but not be punished in the next? For me, I'd go with Abadar, use my spellcasting to Summon non-chaotic creatures and bind Devils, Axiomites, and Inevitables. I'd also raise an undead army from the bodies of executed criminals to bolster my cities armies. If given the chance to rule, I wouldn't be particularly cruel, and I would give a lot of thought as to whether or not the laws I enforced increased civic order and commerce, or if it detracted from these things. I'd end up in Axis, rather than Hell, which sounds a lot nicer.

So why evil dieties when the neutral afterlives are much better?

[Big Fau]

Couldn't a cleric of a Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral diety live it up in this life, but not be punished in the next? For me, I'd go with Abadar, use my spellcasting to Summon non-chaotic creatures and bind Devils, Axiomites, and Inevitables. I'd also raise an undead army from the bodies of executed criminals to bolster my cities armies. If given the chance to rule, I wouldn't be particularly cruel, and I would give a lot of thought as to whether or not the laws I enforced increased civic order and commerce, or if it detracted from these things. I'd end up in Axis, rather than Hell, which sounds a lot nicer.

So why evil dieties when the neutral afterlives are much better?

Because low-level characters aren't aware of how their souls will be tortured upon death. They don't know that Lemures are made from petitioners.

At the higher levels, the characters are promised power in exchange for this torture. They know ahead of time what is going to happen, but are mislead by a promise that the Lemure form is temporary (and not 100 years of torture at minimum). They think "I'll do a little time, and when I get out my boss will reward me for my past work". They are unaware that their memories are deleted in Lemure form.

Evil is about tempting people with false promises, or only upholding the technicalities if not able to outright lie. We know of it because of metagame knowledge, but the characters don't know this at all (wouldn't Good-aligned churches just put such information out in the public if they did?).

[Esprit15]

Because why not go all the way? Why restrain yourself from some those solutions that weaker people find "distasteful" or "morally abhorrant?" Many of those who claim to represent "Good" as they so pompously call themselves seek nothing more than to allow the weak to continue their wretched existence and pat themselves on the back for doing so. Hextor meanwhile teaches that strength only lies in strength. The devils promise power now and consequences if they can hold me to them.

Not everyone treats life as an optimization problem. The same reason that someone might follow a world view that you find horrid yet they see as simply rational. Have you ever been in a political argument where someone was arguing for what you view as literally what is wrong with the world? It's not that different. Consider the things that we did to each other in the past thousand years, and then give people magic and gods.

[rferries]

Because why not go all the way? Why restrain yourself from some those solutions that weaker people find "distasteful" or "morally abhorrant?" Many of those who claim to represent "Good" as they so pompously call themselves seek nothing more than to allow the weak to continue their wretched existence and pat themselves on the back for doing so. Hextor meanwhile teaches that strength only lies in strength. The devils promise power now and consequences if they can hold me to them.

Not everyone treats life as an optimization problem. The same reason that someone might follow a world view that you find horrid yet they see as simply rational. Have you ever been in a political argument where someone was arguing for what you view as literally what is wrong with the world? It's not that different. Consider the things that we did to each other in the past thousand years, and then give people magic and gods.

Seconded - in D&D a cleric worships a god because she's been persuaded by that god's ethos. A tyrannical cleric can't help but feel contempt for the masses, and worships Hextor because his philosophy appeals to her -the strong should rule over the weak, and naturally she considers herself one of the strong.

Plus, evil-aligned Outer Planes are necessarily a punishment. If you're a strong and ambitious soul you might end up becoming a balor or pit fiend one day, ruling in Hell.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Because in the words of a powerful sorcerer - "Anything to avoid the Big Fire Bellow".

[Crake]

At the higher levels, the characters are promised power in exchange for this torture. They know ahead of time what is going to happen, but are mislead by a promise that the Lemure form is temporary (and not 100 years of torture at minimum). They think "I'll do a little time, and when I get out my boss will reward me for my past work". They are unaware that their memories are deleted in Lemure form.

I've never understood why people think this to be the case. Why would you erase the power of an umpteenth level cleric in exchange for another piece of mince for the grinder? Also, high level characters most certainly do know that lemures have their memories deleted, so I imagine that whoever they serve, at the very least will let them skip the lemure phase, simply because a bone devil with the memories he had in life of being a cult leader more than half the way to epic spells is far more useful.

Edit: Also evil souls thrive in hell/the abyss, they can climb the political ladder and become creatures of unimaginable power. Souls that go to heaven more often than not just slowly fade away and become a part of the plane rather than achieving something amazing.

[Florian]

Couldn't a cleric of a Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral diety live it up in this life, but not be punished in the next? For me, I'd go with Abadar, use my spellcasting to Summon non-chaotic creatures and bind Devils, Axiomites, and Inevitables. I'd also raise an undead army from the bodies of executed criminals to bolster my cities armies. If given the chance to rule, I wouldn't be particularly cruel, and I would give a lot of thought as to whether or not the laws I enforced increased civic order and commerce, or if it detracted from these things. I'd end up in Axis, rather than Hell, which sounds a lot nicer.

So why evil dieties when the neutral afterlives are much better?

Wrong POV. As a cleric, you really should "grok" what your deity is all about and as an adherent, your afterlife should be "good and fitting" to you. Blame the authors for being unable to describe the alignments in a neutral way, free of modern western sensibilities, then this´d actually work.

[Feantar]

First, this is the reason why evil clerics are the best at undead stuff - most of their numbers should go the animated corpse route prior to their natural end.

Curses again, you specified pathfinder - scraped most of the post. Well, first point still stands. I think. Also, I'm assuming really powerful evil clerics can miracle themselves into outsiders before they die, so they avoid the larval form (i.e. lemure/dretch). Also, being a lemure is not unpleasant, you're mindless. It's the next stage that is actually experienced(Imp?).

[Azoth]

Couldn't a cleric of a Lawful Neutral, True Neutral, or Chaotic Neutral diety live it up in this life, but not be punished in the next? For me, I'd go with Abadar, use my spellcasting to Summon non-chaotic creatures and bind Devils, Axiomites, and Inevitables. I'd also raise an undead army from the bodies of executed criminals to bolster my cities armies. If given the chance to rule, I wouldn't be particularly cruel, and I would give a lot of thought as to whether or not the laws I enforced increased civic order and commerce, or if it detracted from these things. I'd end up in Axis, rather than Hell, which sounds a lot nicer.

So why evil dieties when the neutral afterlives are much better?

Okay, first up, being Evil doesn't make you automatically a bad or cruel ruler. You could be Evil and design a kingdom even the most goodly of Good characters would consider paradise. You could be the fairest and most just ruler to ever live. Usher in an age that doesn't know of war, famine, or pestilence, and still be the most Evil sentient being to ever exist.

Actually, a high level worshiper of Charon would do just that. After all, Charon is the Horseman of Death. Specifically, death by old age.

No better way to serve him than by building a lasting kingdom where the most common form of death by far is old age.

Being Evil also offers you alot of options and power in the short term. Lilitu demons and Succubi can boost your stats. Turning your foes into undead and trapping their souls in gems are some of the most sure ways to stop them from being resurected and becoming further threats. Souls in themselves can be used to create magic items, replace costly components, or grant fast healing.

There is a ritual for Chaotic Evil characters to transform themselves into demons relative in strength to their current level. It also suggests there are similar ways to become devils and daemons. This means an Evil character can completely skip the stages where they are cannon fodder for their Dark Lord's.

Beyond even that much, there are a dizzying number of ways to become immortal. No need to suffer an eternity in Hell/Abadon/Abyss when you can just not die. Just owning an Onyx Spear and commiting suicide will turn you into a JuJu Zombie. At level 14 with a Prayer Bead of karma you can cast Contingency (Cyclic Reincarnation) and be functionally immortal, unless you are killed twice in the same day.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, I guess the question is why do you think the evil afterlife is full of punishment? After all, that is just the spin that Good (and even Neutral) says. Good is the one that says ''be good or be punished''.


A cleric would choose an evil deity if they were evil and agreed with the gods outlook on life and everything.

[Fouredged Sword]

Because while evil afterlifes are hard on those who are out of favor, those IN favor get sent back. You can BET that every cleric of Asmodious is angling for a "True resurrect in case of death" clause with a major devil. The sort of sweetheart deal of "You get my soul after death, but you are required to resurrect me within one month of my death and return me to the prime material plane at a location of my choosing. In payment I will preform one task you set of duration up to one year and or of value up to the cost of twice the expense of resurrection."

None of this "Has past on to his jut reward" crap. Evil comes back. Killing a powerful lawful evil cleric is a frustrating process of tracking down all of his devil patrons and destroying the well fortified support system he has build in the very dangerous plane his soul goes to after his death. Good get's what it deserves. Evil takes what it can get.

[Florian]

Nah, that´s crap. We´re talking about multiple versions of "the Truth" and each one of them should be "right" in their own way.

[Ashtagon]

Actually, a high level worshiper of Charon would do just that. After all, Charon is the Horseman of Death. Specifically, death by old age.


tbh, I had him pegged as a boatman.

[Zhentarim]

This also works with summoning. If you are fighting demons wouldn't binding devils be better than archons?

[gkathellar]

I dunno about the differences in PF, but in D&D a god's worshippers go to its divine realm, not to the generic alignment afterlife. They live as a petitioner, and then eventually merge with their god. In the aligned afterlife they get to be an awesome exemplar. Neither is a punishment, at least not by design.

Hell is a bit of a weird case, because the Baatzeu are an occupying army who grind up the new arrivals in order to reproduce. That said, it's possible to arrange to become a Lemure on arrival, rather than a Nupperibo destined for the grinder. You just need foresight.

[Zanos]

Don't Evil adherents of Evil deities go to their respective gods afterlives? If you already agree with that deities ideals going to their afterlife is probably fairly agreeable.

In general though remember that creatures in their afterlife, even good afterlives, are typically stripped of all of their personal power. People of Evil dispositions to begin with would probably rather find a way to get around that whole "dying" thing to keep their own power.

[hamishspence]

According to Complete Divine, many evil deities consume the souls of their deceased worshippers like snacks.

Just because they have the same attitude as their deity, doesn't mean their deity treats them well.

[Big Fau]

I've never understood why people think this to be the case. Why would you erase the power of an umpteenth level cleric in exchange for another piece of mince for the grinder?

In FC2 at least they state that doing this provides more power for the Devils than leaving the person as-is.


Also, high level characters most certainly do know that lemures have their memories deleted, so I imagine that whoever they serve, at the very least will let them skip the lemure phase, simply because a bone devil with the memories he had in life of being a cult leader more than half the way to epic spells is far more useful.

FC2, page 27's sidebar. There's no DC given to learn that a person's memories are wiped when they get turned, and the ones who actually get promoted immediately are rare.

[Elder_Basilisk]

A few reasons.

1. Ignorance and obfuscation. Just because something is objectively true doesn't mean that everyone knows or believes it. To this day, a number of famous athletes and rappers believe the world is flat. Since evil deities and their servants are likely to spread misinformation, it's likely that the truth of the lower planes would be less widely believed.

2. Organizations. Just because the good puts up with evil clerics doesn't mean that his organizations will. While there are usually some kinds of evil that they will put up with, evil characters are generally selfish and will make enemies. If the cleric's of Wee Jas kicked a guy out for torturing puppies and first year acolytes, maybe he decides to hook up with the priests of Nerull or Vecna. Not because We Has wouldn't grant him powers, but because Wee Jas' clerics wouldn't put up with him.

3. Short time horizon optimization. Favored weapon great sword with rage and demon subdomain? Bestest battle cleric deity ever!!! Who cares what happens later? Right now, I'll be awesome!

4. Why settle? Sure Wee Jas will put up with evil clerics, but Hextor encourages them. Among Hextorites, the prospective cleric can be the mainstream rather than a sideshow. And the ethos and codes etc are things that he gets and that fit with who he is.

5. Social pressure and advantages. If you're in the Great Kingdom, Hextor is the religion that rules the roost. If you're an Aztec in 1453 and interested in priesthood, the heart ripping guys are the only game in town.

6. And it's not always voluntary anyway. Lots of historical priests we're priests because that's the family they were born into (if you were of the priestly levitical families, that made you a priest-it wasn't just another option at the job fair like Carpenter or vinedresser). Or maybe the family donated him to the priesthood. Once the Lord has an heir and a spare, putting son #3 into the priesthood enables him to expand his influence in another sphere and provides a living for a son who will not have an inheritance.

7. And maybe it's the god's choice as much as the priests. A serial killer might have visions of Rovagug because his killings attracted the attention of the rough beast. Even though he takes neutral evil clerics, the good of magic is unlikely to make the same offer.

[Geddy2112]

There is always the Appeasement factor. Maybe you don't even like the deity, but you understand how much of a monster they can be. You want to keep them happy and satisfied so they don't kill you, your family, and possibly all life on the material plane.

Umberlee is a good example of this. A sea deity formally refereed to as "The Bitch Queen", she revels in her own power and drowns people for fun. Sailors don't pray to her because they like her, they are utterly horrified by her. You seek out a cleric of Umberlee to ensure you and your crew don't drown, or maybe you become a cleric of Umberlee because you live at sea, and by praying to her and earning her favor, you can be spared from her capricious violence.

[Shark Uppercut]

All petitioners have their memories purged, not just larvae. It's not a punishment for evil, it's reconditioning for the trainees that have only existed for 60-80 years, in preparation for the real job of infinity years.
Most people don't care about the afterlife, they care about now.
Social conditioning. All major world religions would be 10x smaller if people stopped teaching their kids to believe and let them decide for themselves.
Probably the #1 term on Faustian bargains for people who are woke, is "I skip Lemure century." Failing that, having a clearly delineated way to earn back memories. Failing that, contingent Rez.
The concept of a "good" or "evil" deity has no historical backing, so I kinda assume they don't exist in D&D and everything is propaganda. The Greek Dodekatheon was full of screw-ups who still managed to be enormously popular.

[Azoth]

I just re-read the OP, and unless you are doing some serious Good, you are going to end up in Evil with your plan. Binding devils and creating undead are heavily Evil acts regardless of the intent behind the action.



This section includes a large number of evil spells. Casting an evil spell is an evil act, but for most characters simply casting such a spell once isn’t enough to change her alignment; this only occurs if the spell is used for a truly abhorrent act, or if the caster established a pattern of casting evil spells over a long period. A wizard who uses animate dead to create guardians for defenseless people won’t turn evil, but he will if he does it over and over again. The GM decides whether the character’s alignment changes, but typically casting two evil spells is enough to turn a good creature nongood, and three or more evils spells move the caster from nongood to evil. The greater the amount of time between castings, the less likely alignment will change. Some spells require sacrificing a sentient creature, a major evil act that makes the caster evil in almost every circumstance.

So, starting at Neutral you have 3 castings of spells that create undead, bind devils, or otherwise have the [Evil] descriptor before you end up in the deep end of alignments and have a one way ticket to Hell.

Unless, you are really good at keeping track of your spells and the ensuing balancing act between casting spells with the [Good] descriptor and spells with the [Evil] descriptor.

That is the big issue with maintaining Neutrality. You have to keep a balance between any acts and spells with alignment descriptors. Slip up and then you are screwed. Cast one too many Animate Dead or Planar Ally's and your alignment shifts to Evil and then you are barred from spells with the [Good] descriptor to bring you back to neutral. I hope you don't die before you charity work your way back to Neutral.

[Zhentarim]

I just re-read the OP, and unless you are doing some serious Good, you are going to end up in Evil with your plan. Binding devils and creating undead are heavily Evil acts regardless of the intent behind the action.



So, starting at Neutral you have 3 castings of spells that create undead, bind devils, or otherwise have the [Evil] descriptor before you end up in the deep end of alignments and have a one way ticket to Hell.

Unless, you are really good at keeping track of your spells and the ensuing balancing act between casting spells with the [Good] descriptor and spells with the [Evil] descriptor.

That is the big issue with maintaining Neutrality. You have to keep a balance between any acts and spells with alignment descriptors. Slip up and then you are screwed. Cast one too many Animate Dead or Planar Ally's and your alignment shifts to Evil and then you are barred from spells with the [Good] descriptor to bring you back to neutral. I hope you don't die before you charity work your way back to Neutral.

What is a major good act, then?

Also, doesn't the diety's alignment matter more than your own?

[Feantar]

Don't Evil adherents of Evil deities go to their respective gods afterlives? If you already agree with that deities ideals going to their afterlife is probably fairly agreeable.

I think this only happens when you match your deity's alignment, so you were heading for the corresponding plane anyway and are just offered a summer home(Or a dungeon in the case of Loviatar) in the deity's realm.

[Agrippa]

I have a simple one word answer for you, ideology and values. If you're evilly aligned yourself, then an evilly aligned god would make more sense as an object or focus of worship than a neutrally aligned god of a similar purview. That's because they share more of your values than the neutral god really ever could.

[Vaern]

A cleric's power comes from faith and a divine connection to their deity. Thus, it makes sense for them to choose to serve a god that best represents the ideals they already believe in. In other words, clerics choose to serve evil deities because they are evil. Settling on a neutral deity just so that you might be judged less harshly by others is not only extraordinarily petty in the grand scheme of things, but the cleric may feel that the neutral deity's religion has certain restrictions - which the evil god that he should be serving would not have - that are holding him back from his true potential.

Contrarily, while you might thing an evil deity offers some nice perks via available domain powers and whatnot, though that evil deity's church may partake in certain rituals that a neutral character finds particularly distasteful, such as the live sacrifice of unwilling subjects abducted from the local tavern unto their god. Thus, neutral clerics, though the may lean towards evil, may choose not to serve an evil deity because their beliefs do not lean that far into the domain of evil.

[Mordaedil]

Well, I guess the question is why do you think the evil afterlife is full of punishment? After all, that is just the spin that Good (and even Neutral) says. Good is the one that says ''be good or be punished''.
That falls out of the window when you can cast a spell and visit the afterlife and see with your own eyes exactly how people are treated in the afterlife.

[Amon Winterfall]

There are going to be many answers for this, and I think the variety of answers is probably more correct than any single answer--different evil deities are going to have different answers.

Complete Monsters aren't going to find themselves in the company of people that reject them. Even evil deities are likely to have their standards at some level [because Deities aren't necessarily EXEMPLARS of an alignment so much as they are an alignment]. Fall beneath them and you get disavowed; deities are probably wise to something like a child molester being so widely hated that they're not worthwhile to support.

Evil deities flat out offer higher rewards; this is simple math. It's a lot easier to get your guys a large piece if much of what you believe in is many people not getting a piece. It's not immediately clear that all or even most evil deities are interested in screwing over their own faithful; it seems more likely that they need each other.

Evil deities also offer unethical or unjust rewards. If you crave revenge, or revel in hatred, or your basic interests involve harming others, evil deities will support it.

Finally, I'd point as well that the choice is partially Miltonian as well: Clergy of an Evil Deity are explicitly not at the bottom of the pile; their afterlife largely consists of them being able to abuse and oppress others. Clerics of a Good Deity may well be servants to everyone, but an Evil Priest lords over the flock; in death they'd still rule over dead faithful, and both of them have the deity's blessing to make non-affiliated souls beneath them both.

If you're a evil bastard because you like to cause misery and suffering to others, you're going to really enjoy it when you get to do that endlessly forever. How is that torment?

[Azoth]

What is a major good act, then?

Also, doesn't the diety's alignment matter more than your own?



Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells:

A cleric can’t cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity’s (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Bolded for emphasis.

Any spell that has an alignment descriptor that is opposite of your current alignment or your deity's alignment is off limits.

[lord_khaine]

That falls out of the window when you can cast a spell and visit the afterlife and see with your own eyes exactly how people are treated in the afterlife.

The relevant question is how many actually get to see anything relevant from that trip. And then still manages to get home as well.


Complete Monsters aren't going to find themselves in the company of people that reject them. Even evil deities are likely to have their standards at some level . Fall beneath them and you get disavowed; [B]deities are probably wise to something like a child molester being so widely hated that they're not worthwhile to support.

No, thats a modern thinking messing up an objective point of view. There are several cultures in the past where it has more or less been ignored. And do you honestly think, that evil deities are going to care about what had been done to body number 264 on the altar in the swampwood shrine? Because if you do, then you dont really understand evil.

[Amon Winterfall]

No, thats a modern thinking messing up an objective point of view. There are several cultures in the past where it has more or less been ignored. And do you honestly think, that evil deities are going to care about what had been done to body number 264 on the altar in the swampwood shrine? Because if you do, then you dont really understand evil.

All cultures have to perpetuate themselves. Deities don't exist in a vacuum where they can just get endless support for free and demand anything they want, they face intense competition from each other. Debauched behavior by their worshipers can lead to all-out crusades against them and loss of influence.

There is always a point where they'll burn followers to gain more followers; that's the point where even an evil deity will throw out someone.

Evil Deities are deities first and evil second. They have zero interest in the hardest ramification of evil - the knowledge that their actions diminish and degrade themselves, permanently reduce their own resources and weaken their own holdings. Deities, all of them, have mental stats well above 30. The deities that are willing to screw themselves and everyone else are by definition inferior to other deities in terms of worship and societal effects, so they're going to be losing competition to others who aren't.

There are many evil deities. But they would reject things like destroying the world or stopping new souls from being created because those ideas don't serve their interests. And those interests take priority over any alignment commitment. Find a deity that decides it will deliberately undermine itself and its followers so that it can be more evil, and I'll show you the immediate target of other deities to seize followers and influence.

[Frivolous]

Possibly for aesthetic reasons. Anyone who thinks flowers, soft music, bright colors, joyous laughter, etc. are all creepy and icky might turn to evil because they like their world grim and dark and staccato. Maybe evil clothes and architecture are just better, more stylish.

Possibly for cynical reasons. Someone who doesn't believe anyone could possibly be really good might turn to evil, because at least evil people are honest about their wickedness. The good people are hiding something, and it's probably horrible.

Possibly for family reasons. If you're raised evil, you might go along with it just to fit in with your folks.

[Hellpyre]

There seem to be a lot of people missing that being a Cleric (as opposed to just a regular priest) is meant to be something of a calling. You aren't a Cleric of, say, Hextor because you think he's gour best shot. You're his Cleric because he judges you worthy to bear his power to some degree. The god allows you to pull some magic from him. You don't just wake up one day and say, "Now I pull divine magic from Nerull." (Unless you're an Ur-priest :P)

[Godskook]

All cultures have to perpetuate themselves. Deities don't exist in a vacuum where they can just get endless support for free and demand anything they want, they face intense competition from each other. Debauched behavior by their worshipers can lead to all-out crusades against them and loss of influence.

There is always a point where they'll burn followers to gain more followers; that's the point where even an evil deity will throw out someone.

Evil Deities are deities first and evil second. They have zero interest in the hardest ramification of evil - the knowledge that their actions diminish and degrade themselves, permanently reduce their own resources and weaken their own holdings. Deities, all of them, have mental stats well above 30. The deities that are willing to screw themselves and everyone else are by definition inferior to other deities in terms of worship and societal effects, so they're going to be losing competition to others who aren't.

There are many evil deities. But they would reject things like destroying the world or stopping new souls from being created because those ideas don't serve their interests. And those interests take priority over any alignment commitment. Find a deity that decides it will deliberately undermine itself and its followers so that it can be more evil, and I'll show you the immediate target of other deities to seize followers and influence.

The Abyss is LITERALLY infinite and is so insatiably abundant with warriors that Asmodeus spun off his own chapter of the Great Order for the sole purpose of keeping those Chaotic ****s from messing everything up.

I'm sure the denizens of Hell have standards because, y'know, they're still Orderly people over there. But the Abyss? Nah, who cares? There's *ALWAYS* more power to be had elsewhere and people to crush, and since, y'know, they're WINNING, who cares if one or three cults get wiped out along the way?

[Azoth]

All cultures have to perpetuate themselves. Deities don't exist in a vacuum where they can just get endless support for free and demand anything they want, they face intense competition from each other. Debauched behavior by their worshipers can lead to all-out crusades against them and loss of influence.

There is always a point where they'll burn followers to gain more followers; that's the point where even an evil deity will throw out someone.

Evil Deities are deities first and evil second. They have zero interest in the hardest ramification of evil - the knowledge that their actions diminish and degrade themselves, permanently reduce their own resources and weaken their own holdings. Deities, all of them, have mental stats well above 30. The deities that are willing to screw themselves and everyone else are by definition inferior to other deities in terms of worship and societal effects, so they're going to be losing competition to others who aren't.

There are many evil deities. But they would reject things like destroying the world or stopping new souls from being created because those ideas don't serve their interests. And those interests take priority over any alignment commitment. Find a deity that decides it will deliberately undermine itself and its followers so that it can be more evil, and I'll show you the immediate target of other deities to seize followers and influence.

Look into Daemon deitys and demigods, such as The Four Horsemen and their Harbingers. These Neutral Evil entities represent the worst aspects of human nature and desire nothing more than to see all of existence, including themselves, destroyed.

Think of any horrible or stomach churning act a person is capable of, now skim the list of those beings, you will find one who does it and encourages others to do it.

Even getting away from that little nugget of mental disturbance, Lamashtu has a magic item that lets her followers successfully impregnate any animal within one size category of their own they have sex with. Paizo printed the item so you can't even ignore it as just something a 3rd party publisher did.

[Fouredged Sword]

Even getting away from that little nugget of mental disturbance, Lamashtu has a magic item that lets her followers successfully impregnate any animal within one size category of their own they have sex with. Paizo printed the item so you can't even ignore it as just something a 3rd party publisher did.

Still not on the same level as Behamut, he who made all his children able to impregnate just about anything in existence. Why have acid immunity if you are not intended to make half dragon gelatinous cubes?

[Zhentarim]

Look into Daemon deitys and demigods, such as The Four Horsemen and their Harbingers. These Neutral Evil entities represent the worst aspects of human nature and desire nothing more than to see all of existence, including themselves, destroyed.

Think of any horrible or stomach churning act a person is capable of, now skim the list of those beings, you will find one who does it and encourages others to do it.

Even getting away from that little nugget of mental disturbance, Lamashtu has a magic item that lets her followers successfully impregnate any animal within one size category of their own they have sex with. Paizo printed the item so you can't even ignore it as just something a 3rd party publisher did.

Sounds like a great way to make a furry.
XD

I'd love to run a Lamashtu centered game one day where all of the players are cultists of Lamashtu. The whole Lawful vs Chaos divide has always confused me. What about chaotic laws and chaotic codes?

[Florian]

Sounds like a great way to make a furry.
XD

I'd love to run a Lamashtu centered game one day where all of the players are cultists of Lamashtu. The whole Lawful vs Chaos divide has always confused me. What about chaotic laws and chaotic codes?

The original "divide" is quite easy to grasp: Conservation vs. Progress, with both sides having aspects of "good" and "evil" to it as a matter of perspective.

[Zhentarim]

The original "divide" is quite easy to grasp: Conservation vs. Progress, with both sides having aspects of "good" and "evil" to it as a matter of perspective.

Wouldn't a cleric of Lamashtu be preserving a Chaotic Evil code, which would ironically make them Lawful Evil, or at least Neutral Evil?

How is a wise chaotic evil character different from a wise neutral evil character?

[Florian]

Wouldn't a cleric of Lamashtu be preserving a Chaotic Evil code, which would ironically make them Lawful Evil, or at least Neutral Evil?

How is a wise chaotic evil character different from a wise neutral evil character?

The usual definition problems: Just because you stay true to your "side" doesn´t make you lawful in any ways. Whether you use a 2,3,5 or 9 alignments version, doesn´t realy change all that much: Ich stays true to itself and each offers a viable "way of life".

[gkathellar]

Sounds like a great way to make a furry.
XD

I'd love to run a Lamashtu centered game one day where all of the players are cultists of Lamashtu. The whole Lawful vs Chaos divide has always confused me. What about chaotic laws and chaotic codes?

Law is about consistency, regularity, and structure. It believes in reason, causality, and (mechanical) predictability. Law is metaphysically realized through Form, in which all things follow a unified logic. Ethically, it takes the form of hierarchy, in which things are classified in relative relation to one another, and a course of action can be deduced from these relations. It has perfect grammar.

Chaos is the way of spontaneity and adaptability. It's the freedom to go your own way, to do things not because you feel compelled to but rather because you want to. Chaos disdains easy description, because by its nature it is often too changeable to describe. At its most extreme, it rejects the entire notion that one thing should be beholden to another - even one moment to the next. More typically, it describes a worldview in which our course is determined internally, rather than from axiomatic statements. Chaos does not follow rules or codes - rather, it coincides with them, at times.

[Amon Winterfall]

I think I need to make clear here that Deities and Fiends have different origins and different interests.

Fiends (Evil Outsiders) are soul-creatures, directly tied to alignment by their very creation. Some of the souls of highly dedicated people and creatures become outsiders; there is a fundamental connection to an outer plane and an alignment.

Deities are directly tied to worshipers as a part of perpetuating themselves; they have a stake in building that core of worship. They aren't driven to extreme dedication to an alignment, their pressure is other deities competing for their followers and trying to manage the politics where other deities may well unite and seek to have them struck down.

This is what I'm getting at that even an evil deity very plausibly has lines they don't want to cross for political reasons. The Outer Planes DO NOT HAVE those lines, and I agree that a lot of what is presented (Archfiends et al) aren't worried about crossing a line.

I think the original point is valid though, if the Cleric is a real creep, even some evil deities will not put up with them, depending on whether its a net loss to that deity.