Why precision damage doesn't crit?

[SangoProduction]

I mean, you'd think that with a damage type that is based on hitting the enemy as perfectly as possible, that critting would amplify that. Has anyone ever given an official explanation?

I thought of the argument that you're already getting as perfect a hit as you can, since it is precision damage. But even if you roll all 6s, you can still be a higher level sneak attacker. So it's not truly perfect.

[Crake]

I've always imagined it as the precision damage itself is already like critting, you cant crit with a crit.

[SirNibbles]

"A critical hit is an attack that deals more damage, indicating a hit to a vital area. Certain creatures are immune to extra damage from critical hits because they don’t have vital organs, points of weakness, or differentiation from one portion of the body to another." - Rules Compendium, page 40

"PRECISION DAMAGE
A number of abilities in the game allow a creature to deal extra damage by striking a vital area. This category of abilities includes sneak attack and other abilities that work like it..." - Rules Compendium, page 42

They both do extra damage by striking a vital area. I guess that's the reasoning.

__

Personally, I prefer critical hits to represent a very powerful hit and thus allow them to deal extra damage to all creatures, whether or not they have vital organs or a discernible anatomy. Precision damage, on the other hand, continues to represent precise strikes in a vital spot which causes extra damage to be dealt. I would still prefer any creature with a discernible anatomy (including corporeal undead and constructs) to be vulnerable to sneak attacks, but that's not RAW. I suppose that's a different can of worms.

[Powerdork]

Effectively, precision damage is critical damage. Creatures already immune to one are immune to the other by its definition.
Non-critical precision damage is simply knowing how to reliably exploit vulnerabilities in smaller ways, rather than sitting with the normal ~3% of attacks that allow you to strike true.

[Crake]

Personally, I prefer critical hits to represent a very powerful hit and thus allow them to deal extra damage to all creatures, whether or not they have vital organs or a discernible anatomy. Precision damage, on the other hand, continues to represent precise strikes in a vital spot which causes extra damage to be dealt. I would still prefer any creature with a discernible anatomy (including corporeal undead and constructs) to be vulnerable to sneak attacks, but that's not RAW. I suppose that's a different can of worms.

If you feel that way, you should try out pathfinder, it made pretty much those exact changes.

[Waddacku]

The designers thought it would let Rogues do too much damage.

[Eldariel]

Why? Because Sneak Attack is one of the worst designed class features in 3.5 (next to all the other PHB martial travesties like 5' step, Tumble, Full Attack, etc.). Instead of working off your base damage it completely bypasses it making weapon and crit stats even more irrelevant.

Instead of giving you options to actually HIT CRITICAL POINTS maiming your target (you need a feat to e.g. cut someone's vocal cords...) it's extra damage just like 0 precision AOE spells. It's basically just melee fireball. It also represents the same thing as crit but instead of synergizing with it or improving it, it actively discourages such an obvious archetype as crit Rogue, and indeed the whole precise strike one-hander class of archetypes.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Precision damage not expressed in dice crits. IF you want SA to crit houseruling it to a be a flat 4 damage per d6 replaced seems reasonable to me. Increases the average damage slightly and now it explicitly crits.

[rrwoods]

Precision damage not expressed in dice crits. IF you want SA to crit houseruling it to a be a flat 4 damage per d6 replaced seems reasonable to me. Increases the average damage slightly and now it explicitly crits.
No, it doesn’t (and neither does Craven damage, despite the common perception).

The wording of the rule in question in the Combat Actions section of the SRD is “Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit”. There is another section that uses the word “dice”, but this one does not. Anything worded as dealing “additional damage” is not multiplied on a critical hit. A bonus on the damage roll would be multiplied, but additional damage is not.

[Fliggl]

No, it doesn’t (and neither does Craven damage, despite the common perception).

The wording of the rule in question in the Combat Actions section of the SRD is “Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit”. There is another section that uses the word “dice”, but this one does not. Anything worded as dealing “additional damage” is not multiplied on a critical hit. A bonus on the damage roll would be multiplied, but additional damage is not.

Wait! No multiplier for things like power attack, STR, smite and so on either? Damn...

EDIT: example: i score a crit with a 1d10 2h weapon. I have STR 18, smite +4 and a power attack bonus of +12. The damage will be 2d10+6+4+12=2d10+22 and not (1d10+22)x2?

[Zanos]

I'm guessing somebody in playtesting got a crit on their rogue and splattered a boss monster all over the walls.

[Blue Jay]

Wait! No multiplier for things like power attack, STR, smite and so on either? Damn...

EDIT: example: i score a crit with a 1d10 2h weapon. I have STR 18, smite +4 and a power attack bonus of +12. The damage will be 2d10+6+4+12=2d10+22 and not (1d10+22)x2?

I'm not sure about Smite damage, but the extra damage from your Str modifier and Power Attack are added directly to the dice roll, so those are multiplied on a critical hit.

With the stats you listed, a basic hit with Power Attack deals 1d10+18. On a crit, you deal 2d10+36. On a crit while smiting, I don't know. Personally, unless you were being stupid cheesy with your critical modifiers and such, I'd probably let you multiply your Smite damage, because rolling a crit on a Smite attack should be an exciting and memorable thing.

But, why I would multiply Smite and not Sneak Attack, I'm not sure. Sneak Attack works with Full Attacks, for one; and it has higher average damage (assuming a full progression).

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm not sure about Smite damage, but the extra damage from your Str modifier and Power Attack are added directly to the dice roll, so those are multiplied on a critical hit.

Power Attack cannot be "normal" and so, using the rule Fliggl cited, is not multipled. The Rules Compendium uses this wording (oddly enough the rules for precision damage say nothing about cannot crit, but the precision damage rules spell it out; that is how I missed it) and explicitly states precision damage is not multiplied.

[rrwoods]

Power Attack damage is multiplied, as it’s added to the damage roll. It’s not explicitly a “bonus” but it might as well be an untyped bonus.

Smite damage isn’t multiplied, since it says “extra damage”. I probably would never run it this way, personally, but by RAW (the way I read it) it isn’t multiplied.

Your ability modifier is absolutely multiplied, since it’s a bonus on the damage roll. The rule says to “roll damage more than once, with all the usual bonuses, and add the rolls together”.

Anything that modifies the roll is multiplied. Nothing else is.

[Blue Jay]

Power Attack cannot be "normal" and so, using the rule Fliggl cited, is not multipled. The Rules Compendium uses this wording (oddly enough the rules for precision damage say nothing about cannot crit, but the precision damage rules spell it out; that is how I missed it) and explicitly states precision damage is not multiplied.

The wording in the SRD is actually "extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are not multiplied," but the Rules Compendium leaves out the word "dice" in the section on Critical Hits, while including the word "dice" in the bullet point about crits in the Precision Damage section.

So, I went to the FAQ. The entry on critical-hit multipliers is kind of long, so I'll just summarize the key points like this:
A critical hit deals damage as if it were a number of independent hits equal to the critical multiplier, but it is still just one hit.
Any damage expressed in extra points of damage is multiplied on a critical hit (including Str modifier, enhancement bonuses, Power Attack, Smite, etc)
Any extra damage expressed as a number of dice of damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (including precision damage, energy-damage weapon properties, etc)
Any number that is already multiplied (e.g., via the "Vulnerable to (Energy type)" quality) is not multiplied again on a critical hit (with the exception of the 1.5x Str damage from a two-handed weapon, because that is not a true damage multiplier, in terms of game mechanics)

I'm not sure how satisfied I am with the reasoning there (especially that last bit about multiplying multiplied damage), but I think that's a least a fairly reasonable starting point.

Unfortunately, it doesn't really provide an explanation for why extra points of damage are multiplied while extra damage dice are not. I imagine it has more to do with perceived game-balance issues than with in-world justification.

[Fliggl]

The wording in the SRD is actually "extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are not multiplied," but the Rules Compendium leaves out the word "dice" in the section on Critical Hits, while including the word "dice" in the bullet point about crits in the Precision Damage section.

So, I went to the FAQ. The entry on critical-hit multipliers is kind of long, so I'll just summarize the key points like this:
A critical hit deals damage as if it were a number of independent hits equal to the critical multiplier, but it is still just one hit.
Any damage expressed in extra points of damage is multiplied on a critical hit (including Str modifier, enhancement bonuses, Power Attack, Smite, etc)
Any extra damage expressed as a number of dice of damage is not multiplied on a critical hit (including precision damage, energy-damage weapon properties, etc)
Any number that is already multiplied (e.g., via the "Vulnerable to (Energy type)" quality) is not multiplied again on a critical hit (with the exception of the 1.5x Str damage from a two-handed weapon, because that is not a true damage multiplier, in terms of game mechanics)

I'm not sure how satisfied I am with the reasoning there (especially that last bit about multiplying multiplied damage), but I think that's a least a fairly reasonable starting point.

In the PHB there also is one entry with and one without the word “dice“...


Unfortunately, it doesn't really provide an explanation for why extra points of damage are multiplied while extra damage dice are not. I imagine it has more to do with perceived game-balance issues than with in-world justification.

Maybe extra damage dice from a flaming sword or so isn't multiplied because the fire burns only 1d6 damage hot. And even when you land the perfect hit and the sword cuts through flash and bones the flame doesn't become more harmful. Flaming burst instead makes the weapon deadlier.

Maybe...

[rrwoods]

The wording in the SRD is actually "extra damage dice
Not here (http://dndsrd.net/weapons.html), nor here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm). This entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) says dice, but this corresponding entry (http://dndsrd.net/actionsInCombat.html#critical-hits) does not.
The two SRDs are different (which I just now learned), but both of them have one entry that does not use the word dice.

I think that, like many things which we would like to be clear cut, this is not. The FAQ can provide insight, if you want, but it's not a RAW primary source and neither is Rules Compendium. Making a surefire statement about what RAW says about Craven, smite, or similar effects is disingenuous (and I myself will refrain from doing so in the future, instead pointing at sources and saying "ask your DM").