PVP battle royale dream team

[Danielqueue1]

DM had an Idea for a fun one-shot. it went something like this

he'd build a bunch of maps each that benefit different play styles. a city with close streets, a dark labrynth, a wide open arena, an infinite field of grass etc. then the players would build level 20 characters and we would have a PVP match on a randomly chosen map. then the 6 players would go up against a team of 6 DM PCs that were made using the same guidelines. (again on a randomly chosen map so that he could not specialize a team for long range combat because it could be a dark dungeon etc.) I was thinking about coordinating with the other players to make a solid PVP team so that we actually have a chance against the DM's no doubt PVP optimized builds.

if you were to have a team of 6 level 20 player characters to go up against something similar, what 6 builds would you pick and why? (no UA not even revised ranger) (btw I'm not going to pressure anyone to do something. just want to see what might synergize really well.)

EDIT:
clarification; I'm not looking for the full build of each. "sorcadin" and "PM Sentinel fighter" are plenty descriptive for the purposes of this question.

characters, races and spells only out of PHB, EE, SCAG, and Volo's guide.
Multi classing is allowed up to 3 classes.
feats only out of PHB
Characters start with 2 +3 items (weapons, shield, armor, or wand of war mage equivalent)
all characters take a long rest and prepare any spells before knowing the type of map.
no one gets surprise.
you have 1 round to cast spells on the party/self before initiative starts (no hostile spells during that time.)
no extra-planar travel. (blink is okay) (so you can't hide in a Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion until everyone else dies.)

[Jack Bitters]

First off just be aware that this sort of combat can actually drag on longer than you'd expect, because PCs are very good at optimizing for survival if they need to. I battled a 4v4 of level 20s by myself for fun and it took several hours (mostly because I had to make tactical decisions for eight characters and because they lacked a huge damage output). Still, the combat was 10 rounds long.

Now that that's out of the way, here are ten tips that may or may not be useful:

Meteor Swarm as an attack is devastating. It deserves a paragraph of its own. Even on a failed save, the average damage is 70, and you're almost guaranteed to hit every member of the enemy team. That being said, expect your DM to use this against you right off the bat. If you beat initiative, one way to counter it is by casting Antimagic shield and grouping the entire party under its area. Maybe a Forcecage or wall of force placed above you will work instead, or a Paladin casting Circle of Power. If a sorcerer subtly casts the defensive spell, the enemy cannot see what you are actually doing and so cannot adjust the tactic accordingly.

On that note, subtle casting is very powerful: both the sorcerer and the level 20 druid have this ability. If you don't want to be shut down by counterspell, stay out of range or subtle spell.

2: All characters should have a CON of at least 14 if not 16. More hitpoints=more time not being dead=your concentration spells stay up and your cleric doesn't have to waste time healing you.

3: Know how to break concentration. Enemy wizard splits your party with a wall of ice? Either do massive damage to break his concentration, or incapacitate him–stun, paralyze, petrify, kill. If he hits your whole party with an upcast Hold Person, it doesn't mean game over if you can break his concentration in time. Power Word Stun may end up being very useful here.

4: Oftentimes the buffs people cast in that first round will be offensive buffs like Foresight, Circle of Power, Swift Quiver, Twinned Haste, etc. Rarely will someone cast True Seeing or See Invisibility. Being invisible may actually be a huge advantage if no one on the other team has a counter ready. Greater Invisibility and the monk's level 18 Empty Body are excellent for this.

5: Status effects can be huge. If your evoker wizard can get in the middle of the enemy team and cast Sunburst, the damage isn't necessarily as important as blinding the entire enemy team. Sometimes the dice just go against you, and that blindness will stick for a few rounds. That being said, you still need a way to do damage. If you have no reliable way to focus fire someone down, the cleric can just heal them up.

6: Mass Heal (level 9 spell) is incredible. It heals for 700 hitpoints spread out among party members. A life cleric can plausibly outheal the damage done to his/her party and effectively give a reset to the fight when that spell comes out. Either focus the cleric down first (hard to do if their AC is high) or provide healing of your own. The side without healing has a much harder time of it.

7: (I could go on and on...) be especially wary of Sharpshooter and GWM. The -5 to hit is a pretty big deal when the average armor class of level 20 characters is ~19, if not higher. A better choice may be Magic Initiate: Hex for your martial characters, because it can also impose disadvantage on ability checks which makes it good for grapplers.

8: Plan to survive. If you have to take Resilient: Con with all your wizards and Resilient: Wis with all your fighters, do it. When you're building your characters don't leave them weak to any one strong save–i.e., don't dump dex, wis, or con. It's no fun if your fighter is paralyzed every round and your wizard dies to a Quivering Palm. Find a way to get resistance to damage. Warding Bond is one spell. Barbarian rage or a monk's Empty Body is another way. Tieflings and Dragonborn have innate resistances to elemental damage. The Sanctuary spell may be another life saver.

9: Coordinate with your team and focus fire. Don't just simply target whoever seemed to be the greatest threat in the last round. Rogue getting too close to your wizard? You don't necessarily have to target him. Better take out the cleric who will save the rogue's life instead.

10: If you really want DPS, one simple build I saw posted the other day was Sorlock. Round 1, use wish to create a simulacrum. Subsequent rounds: cast hex on a target and cast/quicken eldritch blast with yourself and the simulacrum. Damage per round can approach 16d10 + 16d6 + 80 = 224, more than most character's max hitpoints. The average level 20 character with little magical enhancement does ~80-100 damage in a round.

[Jack Bitters]

I realize I didn't even answer your question. I would pick Open Hand Monk 20, Sorcerer 18/Tempest Cleric 2, Champion 20, Life Cleric 20, Bard 19/Life Cleric 1, and Berserker 20. Rogue and Ranger are a little too squishy. Druid seems eh to me. Not enough dpr. Warlock by itself I just don't know enough about. Having Bard and Cleric gives a lot of room for buffs, including warding bond, circle of power, and bardic inspiration. And double Mass Heal, which I view as a game changer.

[Dudu]

Tough.

I think a king in this scenario, and immensely fun to play, would be the illusionist.
Which terrain you'll play? The terrain you choose. Mirage Arcana, go. Bridge here, trap there, hole here, you decide. And everyone will try their hardest to find you.

Arcane Cleric deserves mention. You get Wish, which is a start. Plus the impressive cleric chassis.

But anyway. No reason to build a singleclass if you're looking for power. 2 levels of fighter does wonder to anyone. For every Cha based character, 2 levels of Warlock is wonderful as well.

Want a solid dude?
The arc knight. 2 Levels of fighter followed by 18 levels of abjurer. Tough to kill, lvl 9 spells, Wish included. Invisibility, Fly, See Invisibility, True Seeing. Lot of tools.

However, I would switch the abjurer for the illusionist, considering what I mentioned earlier about Mirage Arcana trick (it's a pretty old trick, but damn, would be fun in that scenario).

[Gignere]

In PvP a divination wizard with lucky is almost a necessity. Five chances to get a 20 in initiative. Three chances to basically bomb the most important enemy team member's initiative. Depending on the portent rolls you may instantly destroy one member of the opposing team by making them fail the save.

In a 4 v4 with the correct portent rolls you can literally blow away or cripple half the opposing team in the first round of initiative. It would be extremely hard for them to recover.

If you do 4 divination wizard with lucky you can almost always guarantee a win.

[Mortis_Elrod]

In this type of combat i think hard to kill is valuable. So my staple 4 would be...
Long Death Monk 20
Paladin 20 (not sure which)
Moon Druid 20
Barbarian 20 (berserker or totem both are tanky)

After that... fill in the holes. Control is kind of needed as well as support or ranged artillery.
Maybe Battlemaster 20 or a Sorlock of some kind.

and...... Lore Bard / Life Cleric


If you can do without the artillery stick in a wizard. Any will do. (though maybe not transmuter)

[Cl0001]

If UA is allowed look at the Oath of Conquest Paladin. A lot of his abilities deal psychic damage based on the character’s charisma which makes them a great tank for saving throw bonuses and is an extremely effective way of killing bearbarin tanks. Additionally massive bursts will be better than sustained damage, so wizards and sorcerers are better than warlocks. Also don’t underestimate banishing spells, being down one character for just a single round can wreak havoc upon a strategy.

On a side note, if you get magic items, look into iron bands of billario or intradimensonal shackles. These can totally eliminate characters from a fight very quickly. I did something similar to what you did, and my team had 2 monks, 2 warlocks and a fighter. Everyone thought I was a moron until in one round I had hexed two targets in strength with the warlocks, stunned them with the monks and then action surged to put the shackles on them.

As for my 6 builds, especially if no magic items are allowed
Paladin- saving throw bonuses and smite damage
Moon Druid- unlimited hp and full spellcaster
Life cleric- insane healing
Monk- for taking out enemy casters
Sorcerer- for high damage and twinned haste
Wizard- for more high damage

[Specter]

These characters have to fill specific roles in the party, regardless of where they are. You definitely want a tank (Bearbarian with Sentinel), at least two strikers (Swashbuckler, Vengeance Paladin) and a controller/debuffer (Illusionist Wizard). These are all examples of course. If you follow tried and true methods of party building, you should come out on top regardless of the map.

[Cl0001]

Or you could just go for the ultimate war of attrition...

6 moon druids

Your dm will hate you, but you can’t really argue with nearly unlimited hp. The battle will last a long time, but you just need to wait for him to exhaust all of his abilities then pummel him.

[Specter]

Or you could just go for the ultimate war of attrition...

6 moon druids

Your dm will hate you, but you can’t really argue with nearly unlimited hp. The battle will last a long time, but you just need to wait for him to exhaust all of his abilities then pummel him.

If the DM ishalf-smart, one enemy is bound to have Disintegrate or Power Word Kill, in which case you'll go from bear to stuffed bear in one round.

[Kane0]

Hmm. Well, a party I'd like to have would be something like
- Ancients Pally
- Totem Barb
- Death Monk
- Life or Arcane Cleric, possibly with fighter 2 dip
- Abjurer or Diviner wizard with fighter 2 dip.
- Sorlock

Barb and Pally take up the front with clerical backup, the Monk makes a mad dash to get in the face of enemy casters while the wiz and sorlock try to tie down or split the enemy party and provide fire support.

[Cl0001]

If the DM ishalf-smart, one enemy is bound to have Disintegrate or Power Word Kill, in which case you'll go from bear to stuffed bear in one round.

Power word kill is a ninth level spell and only works on characters under 100hp. With other ninth level spells being much more useful for damage I highly doubt that the dm will want to waste his ninth level spell on that to eliminate a single combatant. Second I’d assume the druids would change into a mammoth, CR 6, size huge, with over 100 hp. So it can take a disintegration ray. Not to mention that Jeremy Crawford has said that even if the wild shaped Druid looses all its health to disintegration then the Druid just reappears and takes any remaining damage.

So my point still stands, transform and just wait for them to burn through their resources, like 6-9 level spell slots 😬 and then just beat them down.

[Kane0]

Couldn't you just pick one each turn and waste him? No point spreading out attacks if all your enemies are the same.

[SharkForce]

If the DM ishalf-smart, one enemy is bound to have Disintegrate or Power Word Kill, in which case you'll go from bear to stuffed bear in one round.

sure, but that only deals with one person.

[Cl0001]

Couldn't you just pick one each turn and waste him? No point spreading out attacks if all your enemies are the same.

Yes, but keep in mind that you’d be dealing with 6 of them, running around, knocking people over, stepping on them. So while you might focus one, the other 5 are going to be doing severe damage to you. Second, druids have some great healing spells/abilities that could keep them up for a couple rounds taking the full force of everyone’s attacks

[TheUser]

Rather than construct the dream team (which has many many answers) I will instead discuss the mechanics that require attention (see also: abuse) in order to maximize your odds of survival.

All characters will need proficiency in Constitution AND Wisdom.
Resillient will be present in all but Monk characters (I am doubtful there will be room for one however).

I feel like upcasting Globe of Invulnerability becomes quintessential to all strategy since it even blocks lower level spells cast with higher level slots, it in and of itself can also be cast using a 9th level slot to block anything that isn't a 9th level spell.

Disintegrate sounds pretty mandatory since it's a great spell for insta-kill potential with polymorph, the ability to kill wild-shaped druids and the ability to destroy wall of force.

3 levels of sorcerer become exceptionally strong because subtle spell not only allows for bypassing counter spell but also silence fields, which is immensely powerful. Additionally twin casting buffs like greater invisibility allows for exceptionally strong layers of control if your characters can quicken spells or cunning action to hide on the turns they cast.

There will be 1 paladin at level 6 for aura of protection, potentially level 7 for Aura of Warding (half spell damage).

[Mortis_Elrod]

Rather than construct the dream team (which has many many answers) I will instead discuss the mechanics that require attention (see also: abuse) in order to maximize your odds of survival.

All characters will need proficiency in Constitution AND Wisdom.
Resillient will be present in all but Monk characters (I am doubtful there will be room for one however).

I feel like upcasting Globe of Invulnerability becomes quintessential to all strategy since it even blocks lower level spells cast with higher level slots, it in and of itself can also be cast using a 9th level slot to block anything that isn't a 9th level spell.

Disintegrate sounds pretty mandatory since it's a great spell for insta-kill potential with polymorph, the ability to kill wild-shaped druids and the ability to destroy wall of force.

3 levels of sorcerer become exceptionally strong because subtle spell not only allows for bypassing counter spell but also silence fields, which is immensely powerful. Additionally twin casting buffs like greater invisibility allows for exceptionally strong layers of control if your characters can quicken spells or cunning action to hide on the turns they cast.

There will be 1 paladin at level 6 for aura of protection, potentially level 7 for Aura of Warding (half spell damage).

What if first turn they cast Anti Magic Field, and let the monk and various other martials (jheck even the moon druid) go to town on the casters?

[Kane0]

I'm prone to balanced playstyles, I prefer not to rely on a single method or tactic. A nice spread might not be as specialized but it's far less vulnerable to counterplay, which is super handy when facing unknown opponents on unknown terms.

[TheUser]

What if first turn they cast Anti Magic Field, and let the monk and various other martials (jheck even the moon druid) go to town on the casters?

There's some weird room for interpretation.

Based on the wording of the two spells, if a player were to use their level 9 spell slot to cast Globe of Invulnerability, the only way for the Anti-magic field to affect it is a) if it were cast first or b)if they can cast the anti magic field while -within- the globe. That's my interpretation anyway.

Because Globe of Invulnerability specifically protects from spells cast outside the 10-ft barrier as being the ones affected and stipulates that the area within the barrier is excluded from the area of such spells.

[imanidiot]

In PvP a divination wizard with lucky is almost a necessity. Five chances to get a 20 in initiative. Three chances to basically bomb the most important enemy team member's initiative. Depending on the portent rolls you may instantly destroy one member of the opposing team by making them fail the save.

In a 4 v4 with the correct portent rolls you can literally blow away or cripple half the opposing team in the first round of initiative. It would be extremely hard for them to recover.

If you do 4 divination wizard with lucky you can almost always guarantee a win.

All 6 wizard (divination) 17 / sorcerer 3 for Subtle spell, with Alert and Lucky. You're going to win on the first round 90% of the time.

[Gignere]

All 6 wizard (divination) 17 / sorcerer 3 for Subtle spell, with Alert and Lucky. You're going to win on the first round 90% of the time.

Yes with the correct spell prep this would be insane, imagine wish simulacrum for 12 sets of portents. It is simply unbeatable.

[Specter]

sure, but that only deals with one person.

Sure, but 6 against 5 at level 20 is a massive edge. Water Elemental forms have 114HP, and it's not hard for 1 level 20 character to deal that much damage, let alone two. 6 Druids are fine, but far from ideal.

[the_brazenburn]

1. Obviously, all four basic party roles (caster, healer, tank, and sneaky guy) will be required. For caster, 9th level spells are absolutely required. Sorcerers and wizards get Wish and/or Meteor Swarm, which can be great AoE spells for high damage. Primary caster: Evocation Wizard with Meteor Swarm and Disintegrate (very powerful for its level and an instant kill for polymorph).
2. For healer, cleric is the obvious choice. Decent defensive capability, lots of excellent spells, and so many customization options. I'd recommend a Life cleric, possibly a 2-level dip into Fighter for a fighting style (defense). MASS HEAL IS MANDATORY!
3. For a tank, Barb seems a better choice than fighter, with a very high damage output and the most HP of any class. At low levels, Berserker comes with the major disadvantage of exhaustion after a rage ends, but at 20th, your rages are unlimited, so they will never end! Berserker also gives you a hefty shield against a mage's instant-kill spells, putting you at one HP instead of 0, in enough time for the cleric to heal you back up to fighting potential.
4. The final basic role is the sneaky guy, who becomes less valuable in a PvP than he is in a dungeon crawl or RP situation, but will still be key. Rogue is a good choice, though a bit squishy. Assassin feature will maximize your damage, and the Sneak Attack damage at high levels is almost obscene. Your random terrain maps might make a single-level dip into ranger worthwhile, as you and your team can sneak around, move quicker, and avoid difficult terrain.
5. Moon Druid. Unlimited pool of hit points and buffs/damage spells. Enough said.
6. Your last character should have some melee capability, as well as being just a basic utility. A monk is very useful at 20th, especially Open Hand. Your Quivering Palm feature can take out a low-Con mage in a single turn, especially when coupled with Empty Body.

[imanidiot]

Yes with the correct spell prep this would be insane, imagine wish simulacrum for 12 sets of portents. It is simply unbeatable.

I wouldn't even use Wish+Sim. 6 Subtle Spell Meteor Swarms before the other team get to take their first turn is going to bury almost everything. 210 damage to anyone on the opposing team that doesn't have evasion, assuming that they make their Dex save and have resistance to fire AND bludgeoning damage.

Even if you're on a small map where you can't use MS you can use 6 Polys or 3 Polymorph and 3 Power Word: Kill. Now they haven't had a turn yet and it's 3 on 6.

May be better off going Sorcerer 17 / Wizard 3 for more Sorcery Points.

Either way it blows every other comp out of the water.

[Gignere]

I wouldn't even use Wish+Sim. 6 Subtle Spell Meteor Swarms before the other team get to take their first turn is going to bury almost everything. 210 damage to anyone on the opposing team that doesn't have evasion, assuming that they make their Dex save and have resistance to fire AND bludgeoning damage.

Even if you're on a small map where you can't use MS you can use 6 Polys or 3 Polymorph and 3 Power Word: Kill. Now they haven't had a turn yet and it's 3 on 6.

May be better off going Sorcerer 17 / Wizard 3 for more Sorcery Points.

Either way it blows every other comp out of the water.

I like the 6 simulacrums because you can cast 6 polymorph followed by 6 disintegrates to instantly win in the first round.

Remember action economy and guaranteed initiative is king.

[imanidiot]

I like the 6 simulacrums because you can cast 6 polymorph followed by 6 disintegrates to instantly win in the first round.

Remember action economy and guaranteed initiative is king.

On the first round you're going to have to cast Wish to get the Simulacrum. I'm operating under the assumption that you don't get any kind of buff or preparation time before the fight starts. Is that wrong? Did I miss something somewhere?

Edit: Indeed I have. You're right Wish+Sim cheese wins.
Edit2: In that case I'd definitely go Sor 17/ Wiz 3. Twin Spell buffs to break action economy in that buff round too.

[Gignere]

On the first round you're going to have to cast Wish to get the Simulacrum. I'm operating under the assumption that you don't get any kind of buff or preparation time before the fight starts. Is that wrong? Did I miss something somewhere?

Edit: Indeed I have. You're right Wish+Sim cheese wins.
Edit2: In that case I'd definitely go Sor 17/ Wiz 3. Twin Spell buffs to break action economy in that buff round too.

Personally can't really think of buffs that is better than another chance of getting either a high or low portent rolls. Ideally you want your portent rolls to be one high and one low, it is easier to guarantee that when you have three portent dice instead of two, so I feel diviner 17+ is better. Since diviner's can see invisible naturally I can't really think of any buff besides mass invisibility that would be helpful. You don't need twin to mass invisible.

[SharkForce]

Personally can't really think of buffs that is better than another chance of getting either a high or low portent rolls. Ideally you want your portent rolls to be one high and one low, it is easier to guarantee that when you have three portent dice instead of two, so I feel diviner 17+ is better. Since diviner's can see invisible naturally I can't really think of any buff besides mass invisibility that would be helpful. You don't need twin to mass invisible.

oh, you can spread it out a bit more.

i mean, so long as at least one person is a level 17+ diviner, you can get 7 level 17+ diviners in the mix, after all. that's 31 portent dice, i think you'll probably get a pretty decent spread :P

plus, depending on interpretation, those level 17+ sorcerers might be able to twin the wish ==> simulacrum, which is even more ridiculous (depends on whether the DM thinks simulacrum has a target per se to start, and whether a wish spell that duplicates a targeted spell can be twinned. also, depending on whether the target is the person being copied or the copy, you may want *two* primary diviners and 4 primary sorcerers, but really, you should have plenty of portent dice if you can twin the wish).

just don't forget to have everyone except the last to go copy someone who has their level 9 spell slot left.

also, mid-range portent dice can work fine, so long as your modifier is big enough.

[Citan]

DM had an Idea for a fun one-shot. it went something like this

he'd build a bunch of maps each that benefit different play styles. a city with close streets, a dark labrynth, a wide open arena, an infinite field of grass etc. then the players would build level 20 characters and we would have a PVP match on a randomly chosen map. then the 6 players would go up against a team of 6 DM PCs that were made using the same guidelines. (again on a randomly chosen map so that he could not specialize a team for long range combat because it could be a dark dungeon etc.) I was thinking about coordinating with the other players to make a solid PVP team so that we actually have a chance against the DM's no doubt PVP optimized builds.

if you were to have a team of 6 level 20 player characters to go up against something similar, what 6 builds would you pick and why? (no UA not even revised ranger) (btw I'm not going to pressure anyone to do something. just want to see what might synergize really well.)

EDIT:
clarification; I'm not looking for the full build of each. "sorcadin" and "PM Sentinel fighter" are plenty descriptive for the purposes of this question.

characters, races and spells only out of PHB, EE, SCAG, and Volo's guide.
Multi classing is allowed up to 3 classes.
feats only out of PHB
Characters start with 2 +3 items (weapons, shield, armor, or wand of war mage equivalent)
all characters take a long rest and prepare any spells before knowing the type of map.
no one gets surprise.
you have 1 round to cast spells on the party/self before initiative starts (no hostile spells during that time.)
no extra-planar travel. (blink is okay) (so you can't hide in a Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion until everyone else dies.)
Hi!

I'll give it a shot with more if "I think all these mesh together" rather than "I really thought about it 10 hours to create the ultimate baddass team".

So...

1. Pure Moon Druid with Observant, Resilient: Constitution and Mobile. Sneaky guy. Uses first turn casting a battlefield spell reducing enemy visibility then Wild Shape as an Earth Elemental or any other form giving him a great stealth through imprevisible movement, allowing him to reach target that felt secure. Unless he instead decides to stand his ground in open air to try and draw attacks (but unless this feels too metagamey, I'd expect enemy party to ignore him until he's an immediate life-threatening menace, or they have some reliable way to immobilize him).

2. Wild Magic Sorcerer meshed with 6 levels of Devotion Paladin and 3 levels of Chain Warlock (Agonizing Repelling Blast, familiar hidden inside).
This guy turtles up hard with shield and heavy armor as well as Protection style, and Warcaster + Inspiring Leader feat.
Uses Inspiring Leader to give everyone a +30 THP.
Kinda the "adaptative guy" using twin buffs or heightened debuffs, quickening as needed, unless he decides to make himself a t(h)reat by casting high-level Armor of Agathys and Fire Shield before rushing to smite away.
Alternative: Wild Magic Sorcerer 5 + Ancients Paladin 9 + Life Cleric 6, casting Twin Warding Bond on other guys then Extended Aura of Vitality, healing himself while he heal others, while himself dodges or use whatever spell he has.

3. Tempest Cleric 3 meshed with 2 levels of Evoker Wizard and 15 Draconic Sorcerer (fire)
With Distant, Extended and Empowered spell (or Storm sorcerer? AFB does not remember the benefits).
This guy is responsible for prebuffing with 2*7th level Extended Aid before taking his long rest, giving each of the party a nice +45 HP.
In fight, he will keep either Haste or Greater Invisibility on him if the area makes it worthwhile (large area, or open air area) while blasting away, or use whatever Cleric buffs or big AOE debuff he has, including an Empowered Fireball or maximized Chain Lightning, or Distant Healing Words.

4. Lore Bard with 3 levels of Sorcerer
Cast a Careful Antipathy/Sympathy on an object beforehand, targeting "humanoids" with Sympathy effect, identifying everyone except the Tempest Cleric (who should stay in the back). Will keep it into a pocket, throwing it (or using Catapult spell for that, or a flying creature) to put it in a place with enough visibility.
Will help enemies gather in one place to maximize the potential of AOE/debuffs.
Will also cast Extended Foresight before taking his long rest.

5. Arcane Trickster 11 / Wild Magic Sorcerer 9
This one will actively try to hide on his first turn to then ambush enemies with a big Distant mass debuff.
He will also be responsible for locating any enemy with Expertise in Perception paired with Observant feat, along with Warcaster feat and possibly Mage Slayer.


6. Abjurer Wizard with 1 level of Life Cleric and 1 level of Rogue
this one will be responsible for everything a Wizard can do (well, full disclaimer, I never played a high level Wizard so there are many spells I don't know how to exploit - except obviously Meteor Swarm).
To be honest, I'd rather put some Monkish build here, but an Abjurer Wizard that can Simulacrum himself seems better against players.

Honestly though? Many ways to create a very dangerous party.
A few combos...

1. Open Hand's insta death
Fully Twin/Extended buffed (Haste/Fly/Foresight/Aid/etc) Open Hand Monks with Lucky and 2-level Fighter dip for Action Surge are enough to wreck havoc while the rest of the party turtles away.
Only Haste needs to be cast at the beginning of the fight, and only if distance is great enough to make it needed (same with Fly in fact).

Monk each run to a target, action "Quivering Palm", Action Surge "Activate", use Lucky to ensure enemy fails the save, tadaaaaa. One enemy down. On turn 1. Without having any ability to avoid that unless somehow Monks were shot down.
Of course, this requires some restrictive context: the Haste buffer has to go before Monks (or ready), and Monks themselves have to go before enemy party. Plus you need to have rolled interesting results on the Lucky roll, otherwise it's moot.

2. Insta-Army.
This requires as many Conjurer Wizards / Necromancer Wizards (possibly with Warlock for short-rest Animate Dead stupidity) / Druid as you want, and ONE Moon Druid.
Cast all Conjuration spells that allow you to multiply the number of creatures with higher cast, choosing the "lower CR / higher number option".
With a Conjure Animals, this can mean a 4*8 1/4 CR creatures as a 9th level cast.
A Wizard with Warlock and DM leeway could easily have a dozen creatures too but it's beyond point.
The best combo here would be Conjurer Wizard 14 paired with either Moon Druid or Lore Bard (magic secrets) to get Conjure Animals.

Once all creatures have been conjured, have the Moon Druid cast Animal Shapes on them (no limit on number of creatures affected) to get an army of Elephants (meat bag), Giant Scorpions (great balance), Giant Vultures (mobility, Pack Tactics), SaberTooth Tiger (knock prone)... With each having 30 THP in addition of its usual HP. Cherry on the cake, Conjurer's concentration cannot be broken so the only one to protect is the Druid, who could simply wild shape as an Earth Elemental to turtle himself deep into the ground.
Bonus points with someone that can keep a Circle of Power or Holy Aura active around them, preferably as tanky as one may be (Ancients Paladin or Life Cleric), as well as any other "30 feet around" buff such as Crusader's Mantle.
Of course, this is no fail-safe tactic either: you have to get some luck on Initiative, have an area large enough to make it worth, and you will still without any doubt lose half of them on any big AOE.
But on a 6-man team, you could make a 3-Wizard group + Moon Druid, Ancients Paladin and Lore Bard / Life Cleric / Sorcerer (Extended) for a very nasty threat.

3. Hidden Death
Again, buffed Monks. This time, enter Empty Body and Pass Without Trace, with 2 levels in Rogue for Cunning Action and Expertise in Athletics and Stealth.

Only ones that could detect them are animals (familiars, conjurations such as Giant Vulture), a Moon Druid Wildshaping into adequate form, a caster with See Invisibility (which is usually ditched by all players in normal games, but I expect it to be taken when you know you will fight players) or Truesight, or lvl 14 Rogues, or lvl 18 Rangers.
With that said, See Invisibility would require to be precast or twinned, otherwise only the caster would be a true threat: others can simply be avoided.

We could also speak of stupid & simple like all-Wizard party with multiple Simulacrums, or Evoker party (with a single accompanying Circle of Power caster) unleashing a barrage of point-blank Meteor Swarm, or two Oathbreaker Paladin with 4 Warlock Necromancers having raised an army beforehand... ;)

[lebefrei]

I'd personally take an Oath of the Ancients paladin all the way to 20 for this. I know people love to mix it with Sorc, but for PVP purposes I think having 30ft auras and the capstone, both of which dramatically help survival, can turn this fight. You can't risk crowding all of your characters in a 10ft aura, but with the extended radius at level 18 you should be able to usually get it on everyone, and then all the DMs spells are much less dangerous.

[Citan]

I'd personally take an Oath of the Ancients paladin all the way to 20 for this. I know people love to mix it with Sorc, but for PVP purposes I think having 30ft auras and the capstone, both of which dramatically help survival, can turn this fight. You can't risk crowding all of your characters in a 10ft aura, but with the extended radius at level 18 you should be able to usually get it on everyone, and then all the DMs spells are much less dangerous.
I'd tend to agree with you if fighting creatures other than PC.
Against PC?
A party of Wizard will mince your party out, Ancients Paladin or not. Because Meteor Swarm or Simulacrum Chain Lightning fest party etc...
Unless everyone also has a way to negate damage on save multiple times a round, meaning basically everyone else than Ancients Paladin has Evasion.

Which brings me to the conclusion: better have one (or better, two) people sustaining Circle of Power (which combine advantage on save -so also great against manipulation spells- and evasion effect) than one Ancients Paladin.
Of course, nobody forbids you to take the best of both worlds and take both: two Ancients Paladin built one DEX, one STR, each casting Circle of Power before/after using his capstone. ;)

EDIT

All 6 wizard (divination) 17 / sorcerer 3 for Subtle spell, with Alert and Lucky. You're going to win on the first round 90% of the time.


I wouldn't even use Wish+Sim. 6 Subtle Spell Meteor Swarms before the other team get to take their first turn is going to bury almost everything. 210 damage to anyone on the opposing team that doesn't have evasion, assuming that they make their Dex save and have resistance to fire AND bludgeoning damage.

Even if you're on a small map where you can't use MS you can use 6 Polys or 3 Polymorph and 3 Power Word: Kill. Now they haven't had a turn yet and it's 3 on 6.

May be better off going Sorcerer 17 / Wizard 3 for more Sorcery Points.

Either way it blows every other comp out of the water.


On the first round you're going to have to cast Wish to get the Simulacrum. I'm operating under the assumption that you don't get any kind of buff or preparation time before the fight starts. Is that wrong? Did I miss something somewhere?

Edit: Indeed I have. You're right Wish+Sim cheese wins.
Edit2: In that case I'd definitely go Sor 17/ Wiz 3. Twin Spell buffs to break action economy in that buff round too.
Well, it's true that Diviner Wizard group can break Initiative bad...
So in OP's case, sure you win. :)
Now in any context in which a party is aware there exists somewhere a group of lvl 20 Diviner Wizards that would engage in an hostile manner if encountered...
They would certainly put some counter-measures into action.
Let's remember that Portent works without range limit, but only "on a creature you can see". It also requires you to make either a great roll (to use on yourself) or a very bad roll (to use on others).
Same with Lucky, which amounts to an advantage in most cases.

The most basic for that party would be just trying very hard to stay hidden to get surprise (which was specifically put aside by OP).
Or keep at least one party member hidden through full cover (like a Halfling carried on the back of an Half-Orc or Goliath).

Also, considering this is also a high-level party...
A Moon Druid could stay Wild Shape into a creature that can very easily hide even from the most perceptive people, or stay as an Earth Elemental and glide underearth (good luck "seeing him").
A Wizard would definitely grab Invisibility as free 2nd level spell and re-cast it indefinitely until starting an encounter.
A Shadow Monk (Halfling, or just with friends keeping a big cloth to create obscurement) could just stay invisible while travelling, or if party is fearing a danger could repeatedly cast a Darkness on a stone (very costly indeed, but can get up to 10*10 mn, and at least someone in the party will have Rope Trick or at worse Leomund's Tiny Hut to take a short rest).
Another costly tactic could be a Sorcerer upcasting an Extended Invisibility.

In the worst of the worst case, you could just cope with someone keeping Invisibility active on that fellow character that is essential to survival (read: the one that can cast Circle of Power: read: pure Paladin or multiclass Bard / Paladin). With or without another one repeatedly casting Guidance.
An Ancients Paladin built for Initiative (full DEX, Alert, Lucky -even if this one would be washed out if he is visible-) would have a plain +5+5 bonus, plus potential 1d4 (Guidance) + potential 1d12 (Bard) + potential 1d4 (Bend Luck, depending on how DM rules "reaction abilities" prior to Initiative).
A Lore Bard 14 / Paladin 6 built the same would definitely have +5 (Dex) +5 (Alert) +2 (JoAT) +5 (Peerless Skill, conservative average) +2 (Guidance, conservative average). So plain bonus of 19. With people keeping him invisible (so no portent), he can also use Lucky safely to get advantage.
If he doesn't care about the +CHA to saves (for example, because there is another Paladin already) he could also instead to for Swashbuckler Rogue 3 for another wooping +5 Initiative. Meaning base Initiative 24 whatever thing you may do to him.

Meaning a very very strong chance to act in the three first of the whole encounter, casting Circle of Power (advantage on save, no damage on success) or even better in that case Globe of Invulnerability. Which funnily enough does not say anything about non-magical effects, so any party adventurer beyond that necessary "perma-Invisibility + Bard/Paladin" could make quick work of you by using whatever ranged spells/attacks. Of maybe a Wish for immunity against Meteor Swarm (yeah, there are risks involved but after all better that than be wiped out right now).

Or, you know, just cast another spell that would feel adequate? I honestly don't have examples here, first time ever I consider fighting a full party of level 20 Wizards with lots of portent, indeed that's a frightening perspective ^^. But I'm sure people more experienced than me with high-level spells/abilities could find some tactics that have a chance of success (besides just running away XD which is the obvious thing to do).

[the_brazenburn]

Monks are powerful, but not overly so. They make excellent strikers or secondary melee fighters.

[Zanthy1]

I'm gonna keep my list short:

Illusionist Wizard (possibly with a fighter 2 dip)
Diviner Wizard (possibly with a fighter 2 dip)
Life Cleric
Yuan-ti pure blood Totem barbarian (can you say resistance to all damage and advantage vs magic)
sorcradin (probably ancients)
Elf Lore bard with oathbow, possible dip into rogue for some sneak attack

[Gignere]

I'd tend to agree with you if fighting creatures other than PC.
Against PC?
A party of Wizard will mince your party out, Ancients Paladin or not. Because Meteor Swarm or Simulacrum Chain Lightning fest party etc...
Unless everyone also has a way to negate damage on save multiple times a round, meaning basically everyone else than Ancients Paladin has Evasion.

Which brings me to the conclusion: better have one (or better, two) people sustaining Circle of Power (which combine advantage on save -so also great against manipulation spells- and evasion effect) than one Ancients Paladin.
Of course, nobody forbids you to take the best of both worlds and take both: two Ancients Paladin built one DEX, one STR, each casting Circle of Power before/after using his capstone. ;)

EDIT





Well, it's true that Diviner Wizard group can break Initiative bad...
So in OP's case, sure you win. :)
Now in any context in which a party is aware there exists somewhere a group of lvl 20 Diviner Wizards that would engage in an hostile manner if encountered...
They would certainly put some counter-measures into action.
Let's remember that Portent works without range limit, but only "on a creature you can see". It also requires you to make either a great roll (to use on yourself) or a very bad roll (to use on others).
Same with Lucky, which amounts to an advantage in most cases.

The most basic for that party would be just trying very hard to stay hidden to get surprise (which was specifically put aside by OP).
Or keep at least one party member hidden through full cover (like a Halfling carried on the back of an Half-Orc or Goliath).

Also, considering this is also a high-level party...
A Moon Druid could stay Wild Shape into a creature that can very easily hide even from the most perceptive people, or stay as an Earth Elemental and glide underearth (good luck "seeing him").
A Wizard would definitely grab Invisibility as free 2nd level spell and re-cast it indefinitely until starting an encounter.
A Shadow Monk (Halfling, or just with friends keeping a big cloth to create obscurement) could just stay invisible while travelling, or if party is fearing a danger could repeatedly cast a Darkness on a stone (very costly indeed, but can get up to 10*10 mn, and at least someone in the party will have Rope Trick or at worse Leomund's Tiny Hut to take a short rest).
Another costly tactic could be a Sorcerer upcasting an Extended Invisibility.

In the worst of the worst case, you could just cope with someone keeping Invisibility active on that fellow character that is essential to survival (read: the one that can cast Circle of Power: read: pure Paladin or multiclass Bard / Paladin). With or without another one repeatedly casting Guidance.
An Ancients Paladin built for Initiative (full DEX, Alert, Lucky -even if this one would be washed out if he is visible-) would have a plain +5+5 bonus, plus potential 1d4 (Guidance) + potential 1d12 (Bard) + potential 1d4 (Bend Luck, depending on how DM rules "reaction abilities" prior to Initiative).
A Lore Bard 14 / Paladin 6 built the same would definitely have +5 (Dex) +5 (Alert) +2 (JoAT) +5 (Peerless Skill, conservative average) +2 (Guidance, conservative average). So plain bonus of 19. With people keeping him invisible (so no portent), he can also use Lucky safely to get advantage.
If he doesn't care about the +CHA to saves (for example, because there is another Paladin already) he could also instead to for Swashbuckler Rogue 3 for another wooping +5 Initiative. Meaning base Initiative 24 whatever thing you may do to him.

Meaning a very very strong chance to act in the three first of the whole encounter, casting Circle of Power (advantage on save, no damage on success) or even better in that case Globe of Invulnerability. Which funnily enough does not say anything about non-magical effects, so any party adventurer beyond that necessary "perma-Invisibility + Bard/Paladin" could make quick work of you by using whatever ranged spells/attacks. Of maybe a Wish for immunity against Meteor Swarm (yeah, there are risks involved but after all better that than be wiped out right now).

Or, you know, just cast another spell that would feel adequate? I honestly don't have examples here, first time ever I consider fighting a full party of level 20 Wizards with lots of portent, indeed that's a frightening perspective ^^. But I'm sure people more experienced than me with high-level spells/abilities could find some tactics that have a chance of success (besides just running away XD which is the obvious thing to do).

High level diviners can see invisibility naturally one of their high level features

[EvilAnagram]

Barbarian 20 (Berserker)
In a battle royale, the major drawback of Frenzy doesn't matter. He has incredible physical power and excellent defenses.

Sorcerer 18 (Wild) Fighter 2
Excellent disabler with high level magic and incredible nova potential with Quicken and Action Surge.

Paladin 20 (Ancients)
Sticky, resilient, and a potent damage-dealer.

Cleric 20 (Tempest)
Tough, blasty, with enough buffs and heals to keep everyone alive.

Monk 20 (Open Hand)
Disabling, damage, mobility, and awesome saves.

Wizard 20 (Divination)
Round out the group with the caster who has everything.

[Citan]

High level diviners can see invisibility naturally one of their high level features
Aaaw. Too bad I missed that. Except...
I actually didn't. :)
What you are referencing to is the Third Eye, and when you see See Invisibility benefit it only extends to 10 feet around you, which is very short to say the least.

Don't change the fact that such a Wizard party would be extremely difficult to beat* but invisibility is still a thing, until/unless a Wizard just happened to have the actual spell See Invisibility active at the right time, either by sheer luck or because he was smart enough to make it his free 2nd level spell.
(Which is why in my opinion See Invisibility should be learned and prepped by any Wizard around level 10 or so, but that's another matter).

* Except for a full Moon Druid party probably, if it makes a usual tactic of traveling underground as Wild Shaped Earth Elementals: Wizards cannot see them nor sense them (unless themselves Polymorphed into something with tremorsense), while Druids can perfectly locate them thanks to tremorsense 60 feet. So even putting aside surprise per OP rules, Wizards would have no way to influence Druid's rolls. Plus lvl 20 Druid can cast most (all?) Druid spells while Wild Shaped, so while most spells require line of sight, there may be some smart tactics to use here (honestly no idea, not familiar enough with the highest level spells and no time to browse right now).

Or at least flying high in the air as plain birds (so Wizard would see them but not pay attention to them).

[Gignere]

Aaaw. Too bad I missed that. Except...
I actually didn't. :)
What you are referencing to is the Third Eye, and when you see See Invisibility benefit it only extends to 10 feet around you, which is very short to say the least.

Don't change the fact that such a Wizard party would be extremely difficult to beat* but invisibility is still a thing, until/unless a Wizard just happened to have the actual spell See Invisibility active at the right time, either by sheer luck or because he was smart enough to make it his free 2nd level spell.
(Which is why in my opinion See Invisibility should be learned and prepped by any Wizard around level 10 or so, but that's another matter).

* Except for a full Moon Druid party probably, if it makes a usual tactic of traveling underground as Wild Shaped Earth Elementals: Wizards cannot see them nor sense them (unless themselves Polymorphed into something with tremorsense), while Druids can perfectly locate them thanks to tremorsense 60 feet. So even putting aside surprise per OP rules, Wizards would have no way to influence Druid's rolls. Plus lvl 20 Druid can cast most (all?) Druid spells while Wild Shaped, so while most spells require line of sight, there may be some smart tactics to use here (honestly no idea, not familiar enough with the highest level spells and no time to browse right now).

Or at least flying high in the air as plain birds (so Wizard would see them but not pay attention to them).

It doesn't matter what can the druids do as Earth Elementals that can one round the wizards? Because if they don't the wizards go and it would be game over. All druids save or die spells can be defeated by either lucky or portent. Whereas the wizards save or dies doesn't even matter because portent can guarantee failures. It is not about just surprising or winning initiative, it is about can you guarantee a one round kill of the diviner? If the answer is no the diviner wins.

[Citan]

It doesn't matter what can the druids do as Earth Elementals that can one round the wizards? Because if they don't the wizards go and it would be game over. All druids save or die spells can be defeated by either lucky or portent. Whereas the wizards save or dies doesn't even matter because portent can guarantee failures. It is not about just surprising or winning initiative, it is about can you guarantee a one round kill of the diviner? If the answer is no the diviner wins.
Well, since you seem obviously more familiar with Wizard spells than me, let's reverse the question: how are the Wizards supposed to take care of creatures that stay underground?

They don't have any Tremorsense per se, no view on them, so their only chance would be either changing themselves into a creature that has such, or Ready some spells to unleash on the first creature they see in case a Druid pops up to do something. Which Druid are not mandated to do so since they can cast while being wild shaped. They could Shapechange into high CR creatures with legendary resistances, one or several could Dash away a bit to ensure he's beyond any Wizard spell range then starts concentrating on Storm of Vengeance or just successive Fire Storm, or one could just start concentrating on a point-blank Reverse Gravity if outdoors (you don't even need sight for this one technically) -sure, won't amount to much in the sense that Wizards would certainly cast Fly or at least Feather Fall although if none has Fly it would give a great advantage to the Druids because now they can roam above ground to use whatever "sight" spell they have since Wizards would be too high up in the air-).

At worst, if Druids feel this is a lost fight, they can just flee without problem.

I'm not trying to demonstrate one way or another, just sincerely curious.

[Kane0]

Keep in mind the original idea was the 6 players have a PvP match against each other before the Players vs DM match.

Wouldn't be much fun if it was a 6-way mirror match.

[Citan]

Keep in mind the original idea was the 6 players have a PvP match against each other before the Players vs DM match.

Wouldn't be much fun if it was a 6-way mirror match.
I totally missed that part (good thing I was obviously not the only one XD).