Best wizardly demon summoner?

[Dalmosh]

Hello,
Helping one of my players build a level 9 character.
Demon summoning specialist built from wizard chassis.
Basically want "dude who is REALLY good at summoning demons, with quasit familiar and nightmare steed"

Looking at Demonologist vs Fiendbinder vs Malconvoker.
What are their respective strengths and weaknesses?
Demonologist appears to be behind the curve, as its a bit more like multiclassing since it doesn't progress wizard. What is it good at that the other two aren't though?
Demonologist and Malconvoker don't mix due to alignment restrictions, but this aside, are there good multiclass combos between these classes?


Any help, suggestions welcome. Cheers

[Bullet06320]

malconvoker is the way to go
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?528090-Mastering-the-Malconvoker

[Eldariel]

Malconvoker is the best 3.5 class at Summoning. That's about all there is to it. Getting to double up on all your Fiends is just incredible, particularly when summoning them for SLAs, which Outsiders excel at. Doubled duration is sweet too. Sadly you lose a level of casting which really stings on level 9: you miss out on the gamechanging 5th level spells like Teleport and Mgic Jar for 1 level, and still have to wait for 1 more level to get Fiendish Legion. Malconvoker really gets going on level 10 so one level to slog through.

Combine with Thaumaturgist (Arcane Disciple qualifies you) for numerous awesome class features including another doubling on duration (4 rounds per level, 8 with Metamagic Rod of Extend makes for multifight summons) and Contingent Summons in the start of a fight.

I'd recommend Conjurer 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 5/Thaumaturgist 5. If you continue beyond, either Master Specialist (for Summoning goodies) or Malconvoker (for Planar Binding goodies) is a good way to finish it off.

[RoboEmperor]

You can just ditch summoning altogether and focus on planar binding.

1. Grab the Domain Granted Power ACF from Complete Champion to get the Lust Domain power from Spell Compendium to add your wizard levels to your charisma score once per day.
2. Grab 2 levels of Wyrm Wizard at levels 9 & 10 to add Surge of Fortune (cleric spell) to your spell list.
3. Planar Bind an Demon, active your Lust Domain power to boost your Charisma sky high, and cast the Surge of Fortune Spell to roll a 20 on the charisma check, resulting in a 100% success chance and 0% chance of the demon breaking free.
4. Bind yourself and army and you're the defacto demon master in your game.
5. Bind yourself a Nightmare and use it as your steed.

You have to be a Wizard8/WyrmWizard2/Wizard10 to maximize your Lust Domain power.

[Fouredged Sword]

Ok, here is the problem with Malconvoker - You can't actually be evil. The class REQUIRES you to be someone with good end turning evil on evil. This does not match many character concepts.

I would suggest, if your player actually wants to be an evil themed summoner, to skip the class. He sounds like he wants to be a CE wizard with improved familiar for a Quasit and Leadership for a Nightmare cohort starting at level 11. At level 9 his best bet for a nightmare mount is ether planer binding or a normal warhorse with horseshoes of flame to make it into a fake nightmare.

Honestly a lot can be done with just Master Specialist.

[Arael666]

Combine with Thaumaturgist (Arcane Disciple qualifies you) for numerous awesome class features including another doubling on duration (4 rounds per level, 8 with Metamagic Rod of Extend makes for multifight summons) and Contingent Summons in the start of a fight.

I don't think thats how it works, D&D multiplication has a very specific rule

[Dalmosh]

Hey cheers for your help folks.

Ultimately, he chose Malconvoker due to added versatility of feat selection, more than anything else, and the fact that Demonologist needs high wisdom and charisma, in addition to high int if you enter through wizard, and he rolled fairly lacklustre stats. Likewise, a one level dip into Fiendbinder couldn't be done at level 9 without wasting a feat on truename research, which he wasn't into. Character is called John Malconvokch.

I will add that despite this, Demonologist still seems to eat Malco for breakfast at entry levels, when it comes to planar binding of demons, because it gets earlier access to these spells. I'm sure this scales off after a few levels though.

[Crake]

Ok, here is the problem with Malconvoker - You can't actually be evil. The class REQUIRES you to be someone with good end turning evil on evil. This does not match many character concepts.

I would suggest, if your player actually wants to be an evil themed summoner, to skip the class. He sounds like he wants to be a CE wizard with improved familiar for a Quasit and Leadership for a Nightmare cohort starting at level 11. At level 9 his best bet for a nightmare mount is ether planer binding or a normal warhorse with horseshoes of flame to make it into a fake nightmare.

Honestly a lot can be done with just Master Specialist.

Actually, malconvoker simply requires that you not be evil, not that ir requires you to be good. Also, improved familiars can be within 1 step of your alignment in either direction, so you could be true neutral with a CE quasit, and leadership simply gets a very minor penalty on the leadership score for attracting a cohort of different alignment. So unless the player wanted specifically to play an evil character, malconvoker still works fine.

[Doxkid]

Nar demonbinder is best demonbinder. It doesnt advance your spellcasting, but other than that it's the bee's knees.

[RoboEmperor]

Nar demonbinder is best demonbinder. It doesnt advance your spellcasting, but other than that it's the bee's knees.

Nar Demonbinder is the earliest demonbinder. With a wizard base you get all the planar binding spells a level earlier than other classes, however one level 8 spell per day makes him terrible in the end.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I don't think thats how it works, D&D multiplication has a very specific rule
Durations are a real-world value, so they use regular multiplication rules. Anything that is a die roll or added to a die roll probably isn't a real-world value, so it uses D&D multiplication rules.

[Crake]

Durations are a real-world value, so they use regular multiplication rules. Anything that is a die roll or added to a die roll probably isn't a real-world value, so it uses D&D multiplication rules.

Real-world or not shouldn't matter. The point of the dnd multiplication rule is specifically to stop things from multiplying out of control. Basically what it states is "any time you are stated to multiply a value, you instead add the base value on a number of times equal to the multiplier -1" So x2 is actually +100%, and x3 is +200% etc etc. It's just easier to say x2 than +100%. By that logic, extending the duration of a spell twice is adding 100% of the base value twice, which comes out to 300% of the base value, aka x3.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Real-world or not shouldn't matter.
It does. It's right there in the rules.


When two or more multipliers apply to any abstract value (such as a modifier or a die roll), however, combine them into a single multiple [...]

When applying multipliers to real-world values (such as weight or distance), normal rules of math apply instead.

[Anthrowhale]

Nar Demonbinder is the earliest demonbinder. With a wizard base you get all the planar binding spells a level earlier than other classes, however one level 8 spell per day makes him terrible in the end.

A spontaneous cleric may be able to gain access even earlier at character level 7 with versatile spellcaster.

Nar Demonbinder should probably always be combined with Ultimate Magus.

[Arael666]

It does. It's right there in the rules.

That quote of the rules actually contradicts what you said in the first place. We're calculating iterations between metamagic feats, class features and similar abilities, D&D math should apply by raw.

[RoboEmperor]

A spontaneous cleric may be able to gain access even earlier at character level 7 with versatile spellcaster.

Nar Demonbinder should probably always be combined with Ultimate Magus.

If you combine it with Ultimate Magus you are not going to get the planar binding spells as early as possible and therefore removing the entire point of going Nar Demonbinder. In fact you'll end up getting greater planar binding later than a wizard.

[Anthrowhale]

If you combine it with Ultimate Magus you are not going to get the planar binding spells as early as possible and therefore removing the entire point of going Nar Demonbinder. In fact you'll end up getting greater planar binding later than a wizard.

It's a good point overall. You end up with Lesser Planar Binding 1 level early (ECL 8), Planar Binding on schedule (ECL 11), and then Greater planar binding one level delayed (ECL 16), with all the significant benefits of Ultimate Magus.

I like the spontaneous cleric approach more anyways---Lesser Planar Binding @ECL 7, Planar Binding @ECL 9, and Greater Planar Binding @ ECL 13. The drawback (which we discussed previously) is that access to Surge of Fortune is delayed until ECL 10, so there is a level of risky binding compared to a cleric build.

[Eldariel]

If you combine it with Ultimate Magus you are not going to get the planar binding spells as early as possible and therefore removing the entire point of going Nar Demonbinder. In fact you'll end up getting greater planar binding later than a wizard.

While true, you also get 8th+9th level spells from two classes and very high level slots for the metamagic class feature and great many caster level boosts; nice for Gate, Summons, etc.

[Dalmosh]

and Demononologist also gets Lesser Planar Binding at Lvl 8, but then gets full Planar Binding at Level 9.
The Summoning Mastery ability allows it to use summon lists (for demons only) at 3 levels higher than normal.

How does that not stomp all over what the other classes can do before it runs out of level advancement?
Malcy can summon MORE demons at once, and for longer, but a Demonologist's demon summons are still far more powerful.

I'm really not seeing what Nar Demonbinder brings to the table at all beyond easier entry requirements.

[Eldariel]

and Demononologist also gets Lesser Planar Binding at Lvl 8, but then gets full Planar Binding at Level 9.
The Summoning Mastery ability allows it to use summon lists (for demons only) at 3 levels higher than normal.

How does that not stomp all over what the other classes can do before it runs out of level advancement?
Malcy can summon MORE demons at once, and for longer, but a Demonologist's demon summons are still far more powerful.

Demonologist doesn't advance your spellcasting but has its own list. It only goes up to Summon Monster VIII and there's no way to advance it beyond that point. Malconvoker's doubled summons essentially bumps it up one spell level for every demon summoning and it still keeps the normal Wizard-progression, which is the big thing. And the longer summons can last for multiple combats and you're free to advance other classes post Malconvoker 5 (Thaumaturgist or Master Specialist both make your summons much tougher) and Infernal Fury damage buff is pretty nice on multihitters like Yugoloths or Chain Devils or such too. Not to mention the added durability. Demonologist has a brief flash in the pan on level 4 when at ECL 9 he's casting Summon Monster VI while others are at Summon Monster V, which is very nice indeed, but he has way fewer castings of the top level summon than a Focused Specialist: Conjurer, and 2xSummon Monster V can match up to Summon Monster VI just fine (particularly with bonuses). And y'know, Devils have really good abilities too. Indeed, you generally summon Outsiders for spell-likes where the max level is less important than the specific SLAs you're getting. And getting more is often competitive with getting high.

In short, Demonologist has two problems: limitation to chaotic evil outsiders while lawful/neutral evil outsiders and magical beasts (which can offer really good options) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?255219-The-Summoner-s-Desk-Reference-D-amp-D-3-5) are locked out, losing one of the strengths of summoning in being able to pick the right tool for each problem without having to decide beforehand, what each of your summoning spells become. Also, lacking Wizard advancement leading to worse buffs, fewer daily slots, etc. It can do one thing reasonably, but losing Wizard casting is very painful very soon (already at level 4-5 spells you're missing out on Teleports, Magic Jars, Polymorphs, etc.). The Demonologist flash in ECL 8-9 is incredible, but you'll never get Greater Planar Binding.

In short, for right now and perhaps one-two levels, Demonologist would be great but it has no future, and their daily sustainability is really, really limited compared to real casters. Demonologist just summons some Demons, Wizard summons some demons with the option of Hasting them, giving them Greater Magic Weapon'd weapons, Polymorphing them into something even more scary, etc.

EDIT: Though if he wants to specifically summon Demons only, not all kinds of Fiends (Yugoloths, Devils, etc. are nice), it could actually be reasonable provided the game doesn't run too long. Demonlogist shines at about levels 8-11, with 12 being reasonable. 13+ they begin to fall off. And before they get Summoning Mastery, losing caster levels and starting a new list is very painful indeed.

EDIT#2: Oh yeah, Demonologist has one giant Achilles' Heel. Their caster level is based on their own progression, so those Summons on level 9 only last 4 rounds, and can be Dispelled by a level 5 Wizard with a reasonable chance of success. And with the 3 feats it require to enter not really contributing at all to the whole (Malign Spell Focus is for Evil save-or-Xs while you cast Summons with no saves, Evil Brand is a very minor skill bonus, and Sacrificial Mastery requires 15 Wis and grants a hyperspecific minor skill bonus), taking Practiced Spellcaster to offset this is quite difficult to manage while still taking feats to improve your summons (though getting Quasit familiar for free does save you two feats in Obtain Familiar + Improved Familiar; still a net negative).

[Dalmosh]

Legend, thanks a lot. That's exactly what I was looking for.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That quote of the rules actually contradicts what you said in the first place. We're calculating iterations between metamagic feats, class features and similar abilities, D&D math should apply by raw.
No, you misunderstand. The rule does not care about the source of the multiplication. The rule cares about whether the multiplier is applied to an abstract value or real-world value. Duration is a real-world value. QED.

[WeaselGuy]

As an aside, you can also look at Zhentarim Skymage. Fully advances casting, and allows you to attract a flying creature as a mount, based on charisma modifier and class level. Nightmare is one of the acceptable mount choices.

[RoboEmperor]

It's a good point overall. You end up with Lesser Planar Binding 1 level early (ECL 8), Planar Binding on schedule (ECL 11), and then Greater planar binding one level delayed (ECL 16), with all the significant benefits of Ultimate Magus.

I like the spontaneous cleric approach more anyways---Lesser Planar Binding @ECL 7, Planar Binding @ECL 9, and Greater Planar Binding @ ECL 13. The drawback (which we discussed previously) is that access to Surge of Fortune is delayed until ECL 10, so there is a level of risky binding compared to a cleric build.

I think you add the domain spells to your spell known when you reach a new spell level, not at level 1, so i think versatile spellcaster might not work here without dipping malconvoker?

"each time the character gains a new spell level, he gains one or more bonus spells known to add to his list. A cleric may add his two domain spells to his list of spells known"

suggests when you reach the 5th spell level you add lesser planar binding to your list, not before you reach 5th spell level.

I looked up demonologist and I think it's absolute crap. Sure you get Planar Binding 2 levels earlier than other spellcasters (1 level earlier than malconvoker + versatile spellcaster), but you never get Greater Planar Binding, so i guess demonologist is better if you know your game ends before level 11 or 12?

[Anthrowhale]

...suggests when you reach the 5th spell level you add lesser planar binding to your list, not before you reach 5th spell level.


That's right---you use a Domain Staff (Complete Champion) for advanced access.

[RoboEmperor]

That's right---you use a Domain Staff (Complete Champion) for advanced access.

You cannot use Versatile Spellcaster to power Runestaves, so i doubt it works on Domain Staves as well. Exact wording in Versatile Spellcaster is that you can only cast spells that you know with it. Runestaves and Domain Staves do not add spells to your spell known list. They expend a spell slot of equal to the spell level of the spell you are casting.

Drakehelms and Knowstones however should work with versatile spellcaster, but they are arcane only.

[Anthrowhale]

You cannot use Versatile Spellcaster to power Runestaves, so i doubt it works on Domain Staves as well. Exact wording in Versatile Spellcaster is that you can only cast spells that you know with it. Runestaves and Domain Staves do not add spells to your spell known list. They expend a spell slot of equal to the spell level of the spell you are casting.

Drakehelms and Knowstones however should work with versatile spellcaster, but they are arcane only.

This appears correct.

[Dalmosh]

I looked up demonologist and I think it's absolute crap. Sure you get Planar Binding 2 levels earlier than other spellcasters (1 level earlier than malconvoker + versatile spellcaster), but you never get Greater Planar Binding, so i guess demonologist is better if you know your game ends before level 11 or 12?

Yup, it entirely depends on your DM and campaign. Levels 8-12 would represent more than a year of play sessions for my group. We have quite high character attrition, and no players have ever been interested in resurrection.
I only have one player who would even be interested in long term strategic building of optimised multilevelled characters, everyone else just picks a concept they like and sees what happens, enjoying the ride and expecting to die at any time. I've also never run a game that has advanced beyond about 13 before petering out.

So for our specific purposes Demonologist would be a viable class, if very niche specific.

I'm not seeing the same critiques levelled at Nar Demonbinder though. How does a Nar Demonbinder remain viable when its levels start petering out?

[RoboEmperor]

Yup, it entirely depends on your DM and campaign. Levels 8-12 would represent more than a year of play sessions for my group. We have quite high character attrition, and no players have ever been interested in resurrection.
I only have one player who would even be interested in long term strategic building of optimised multilevelled characters, everyone else just picks a concept they like and sees what happens, enjoying the ride and expecting to die at any time. I've also never run a game that has advanced beyond about 13 before petering out.

So for our specific purposes Demonologist would be a viable class, if very niche specific.

I'm not seeing the same critiques levelled at Nar Demonbinder though. How does a Nar Demonbinder remain viable when its levels start petering out?

1. Nar Demonbinder has access to Greater Planar Binding. That spell alone can make you relevant lategame. Demonologist doesn't.
2. Some people suggested Ultimate Magus to progress both Wizard and Nar Demonbinder simultaneously. Your wizard spellcasting will only be 1 level behind, and in exchange you get all of the Ultimate Magus benefits and Nar Demonbinder's spells.
3. Check out my Nar Demonbinder build in my signature. That build is designed to make Nar Demonbinder relevant even in epic levels. I can tell you that you can't do the same to Demonologist.