OotS Evil Afterlife: Humans and Non-Humans

[Psyren]

This is a short(ish) question that just occurred to me so I apologize if the Giant already answered it elsewhere.

When Jirix died, he apparently ended up at a vast army of goblinoid souls. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) It's not quite sipping daiquiris on a celestial beach, but for a militaristic race (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0148.html) like hobgoblins, joining the Dark One's endless army is probably not far off from being heavenly bliss. Now, it's possible Jirix got special treatment for being the next highest cleric in line, but Redcloak later suggests that a lowly craftsman would have a similar destination at the Dark One's side (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0831.html), and he would probably know better than anyone.

Compare to the humans on the Western Continent - they also died (fighting), but ended up in Hell (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0918.html) by droves. Furthermore, there are lizardfolk in Tarquin's army (including some who died at the crater (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0919.html)) but we only see human souls falling into Lee's inbox.

All of which leads to my question - do the other races in OotS go to hell too, or do their various (evil) deities have deals set up (like the Dwarves and Goblins) to get their souls? Did any of the humans who went to hell worship Nergal? In OotS, what makes an evil soul go to hell as opposed to, well, somewhere else?

(Lastly, the IFCC suggest they'll get V's soul as well - at least if V dies without repenting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html) - so presumably the elves don't have a similar arrangement?)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If I understand how this works correctly (and there is good evidence that suggest I probably don't, so take this with a pinch of salt), the Dark One and his army probably are in Hell (i.e. in one of the Nine Hells, the Lawful Evil afterworld). The DO has probably carved out a little realm for himself, and any goblinoid devoted to him is directed there, because that's how it works at the grand scale. If there were any human DO followers they'd end up there too.

Goblinoids not so devoted to him or that aren't Lawful (or not Evil) will go to the generic entrance of the plane they belong to. But followers of a god probably have a special process. I do wonder what happens to followers of a god that are not of the appropriate alignment - maybe each god has smaller offices in adjacent planes for them?

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

The iron plateau:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html

sounds very much like the OOTS version of Acheron - one of the two least evil Lower Planes.

Acheron is Lawful (with mild Evil tendencies, not enough to handicap someone with Good alignment who visits it.)

Its counterpart on the Chaotic side is Pandemonium.

[Goblin_Priest]

If I understand how this works correctly (and there is good evidence that suggest I probably don't, so take this with a pinch of salt), the Dark One and his army probably are in Hell (i.e. in one of the Nine Hells, the Lawful Evil afterworld). The DO has probably carved out a little realm for himself, and any goblinoid devoted to him is directed there, because that's how it works at the grand scale. If there were any human DO followers they'd end up there too.

Goblinoids not so devoted to him or that aren't Lawful (or not Evil) will go to the generic entrance of the plane they belong to. But followers of a god probably have a special process. I do wonder what happens to followers of a god that are not of the appropriate alignment - maybe each god has smaller offices in adjacent planes for them?

Grey Wolf

I don't think so. In D&D, the goblin god is not in Hell (Baator; a LE outer plane), but on some other one, the NE outer plane I think. I thought they mentionned the plane in-comic somewhere, but I also don't think they re-use the same D&D cosmology names.

Otherwise, the rules for souls are complex and undefined. Just look at the dwarves. I wouldn't be surprised if all the goblins didn't go to the Dark One, regardless of everything else. Who knows.

But I wouldn't cast Jyrix down as some lowly cleric (is he even one?) and the craftsman as some lowly nobody. Those are, imo, two relatively high-leveled characters and respected in their society. I don't think Redcloak just took a random hobgoblin with 1 rank in craft to do the phylactery replica. Nor leave with random schmuk in charge of Gobbotopia in his absence. The smith was probably the best in Gobbotopia, and Jyrix the best leader, second only to Redcloak. Both playing or having played vital and forefront rules for the Plan. I would expect it likely that the Dark One would honor their contributions on the material plane and value their skills in the afterlife.

[hamishspence]

I don't think so. In D&D, the goblin god is not in Hell (Baator; a LE outer plane), but on some other one, the NE outer plane I think.

The LN Lower Plane - Acheron. The primary goblin deity in question is Maglubiyet - he is LE not NE.

Unusually, the orc pantheon also resides in Acheron despite being CE - maybe they're an invading force that has taken up residence.

[dps]

(Lastly, the IFCC suggest they'll get V's soul as well - at least if V dies without repenting (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0884.html) - so presumably the elves don't have a similar arrangement?)

The Fiends suggest no such thing in that strip; in fact, they're not even in it. It's a conclusion that V draws from things Qarr says, but Qarr is just trying to keep V from blasting him, so it's very questionable.

[hamishspence]

This was the strip where they use the phrase "50-50 chance" about the possibility of getting V's soul:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html

hence, in the later strip, Qaar doing his best to discourage V from repenting (probably in order to increase that probability)

[Goblin_Priest]

The LN Lower Plane - Acheron. The primary goblin deity in question is Maglubiyet - he is LE not NE.

Unusually, the orc pantheon also resides in Acheron despite being CE - maybe they're an invading force that has taken up residence.

My bad for Acheron, lookup says it's mix of LE and LN. Says the goblin god is NE, as I remembered, though: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Maglubiyet

[hamishspence]

Fair enough - I thought he was LE because hobgoblins are on average LE and he's their primary deity. But on closer inspection, his ability to grant the Chaos domain to clerics (not mentioned on FR wiki - but is mentioned elsewhere), does suggest he's NE with CE tendencies.

[Kish]

Maglubiyet aside, the Dark One's alignment is unstated (besides "evil"), but he does apparently grant the Law Domain.

[Keltest]

Maglubiyet aside, the Dark One's alignment is unstated (besides "evil"), but he does apparently grant the Law Domain.

Given his reputation as a mighty general and leader, a Lawful Evil alignment would not be an unreasonable inference.

[martianmister]

For someone from Turkey, Maglubiyet is the most cringey god name ever. :smalltongue:

[Goblin_Priest]

Fair enough - I thought he was LE because hobgoblins are on average LE and he's their primary deity. But on closer inspection, his ability to grant the Chaos domain to clerics (not mentioned on FR wiki - but is mentioned elsewhere), does suggest he's NE with CE tendencies.

Well he's the god of all goblinoids, for which the 3 main races represent the 3 evil alignments, so it's logical that he'd be in the middle, given that otherwise he couldn't have clerics from one of the main races. Being NE means that on top of NE goblin clerics, he's just one step away for LE hobgoblin clerics and CE bugbear clerics.

[Peelee]

If I understand how this works correctly (and there is good evidence that suggest I probably don't)

I can relate to this in just about everything.

[LadyEowyn]

I agree with the OP that this seems strange. In general, the Evil afterlives are bad places to be (the Three Fiends' domain's are, Hel's is, and Xykon agrees that they're to be avoided at all costs), but the Dark One's area doesn't seem to follow that pattern. Given hobgoblins' military preferences, it seems like somewhere most of them would enjoy being.

Other materials in OOTS definitely shows that some species (e.g., dwarves) have different arrangements from the general pattern of "Good people go to good afterlives, Evil people go to bad afterlives". A dwarf can live a good life and still end up in Hel. And apparently, a goblin can be Evil and still end up somewhere they'd be quite happy to be.

[Keltest]

I agree with the OP that this seems strange. In general, the Evil afterlives are bad places to be (the Three Fiends' domain's are, Hel's is, and Xykon agrees that they're to be avoided at all costs), but the Dark One's area doesn't seem to follow that pattern. Given hobgoblins' military preferences, it seems like somewhere most of them would enjoy being.

Other materials in OOTS definitely shows that some species (e.g., dwarves) have different arrangements from the general pattern of "Good people go to good afterlives, Evil people go to bad afterlives". A dwarf can live a good life and still end up in Hel. And apparently, a goblin can be Evil and still end up somewhere they'd be quite happy to be.

Evil afterlives in D&D aren't inherently punitive, its just that being in a room full of nothing but people who are willing to step all over you is going to be naturally unpleasant for anybody who isn't in a position to do the stepping. The goblinoid afterlife is different because there is artificial discipline imposed to control the worst of the "me ahead of the group" tendencies of its members.

[thereaper]

Jirix's impression of the afterlife isn't necessarily accurate.

[Devils_Advocate]

I think that the general case in Dungeons & Dragons is that the souls of deceased creatures go to the divine realms of their respective deities. Souls without deities go to afterlives corresponding to their moral natures. But there are often exceptions -- sometimes in the form of a particular setting's whole cosmology just working differently than that! -- as is the case with Hel.

A pantheon of gods and goddesses will often have some sort of system for dividing up the souls of their followers; typically, those who follow the pantheon's values will be granted relatively pleasant afterlives in the Upper Planes, and those who go against those values will receive relatively unpleasant afterlives in the Lower Planes. It's often easy to guess which pantheon exerts the most influence over a given Outer Plane, planar layer, or individual realm by looking at its name, if you have enough mythological knowledge.

In the Order of the Stick, it seems as though the majority of known deities work together as a superpantheon and divide the souls of their followers up by alignment; they enter in different places, but they're sent to the same destinations (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0486.html), based on alignment rather than on piety (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html). Even the gods, it seems, heed the cosmic forces of Law, Chaos, Good, Evil, and Balance; and thus so too should mortals, if they know what's good for them!

But this mainly serves as a compromise between competing divine interests. The goblin pantheon doesn't have a system of dividing up its worshipers between various deities with competing ideals because the goblin pantheon consists of one god, who isn't really interested in cooperating with the other deities. And the Dark One seems primarily concerned with the fates of goblinoids, so he isn't interested in a deal where he gives up most of his mostly-goblinoid worshipers in exchange for a bunch of mostly nongoblin souls.

See? Exceptions!


For someone from Turkey, Maglubiyet is the most cringey god name ever. :smalltongue:
Well, now I'm curious.


Well he's the god of all goblinoids
I'm pretty sure that bugbears have their own pantheon. I remember reading something to the effect that bugbears were arbitrarily grouped together with goblins and hobgoblins for 3rd Edition; maybe they were judged to be too minor to have their own unique subtype? Which isn't to say that they weren't considered "goblinoids" prior, but so were e.g. orcs, I think.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure that bugbears have their own pantheon. I remember reading something to the effect that bugbears were arbitrarily grouped together with goblins and hobgoblins for 3rd Edition; maybe they were judged to be too minor to have their own unique subtype? Which isn't to say that they weren't considered "goblinoids" prior, but so were e.g. orcs, I think.

Dark One nice for weddings and funerals, though. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1038.html)

[LadyEowyn]

Evil afterlives in D&D aren't inherently punitive, its just that being in a room full of nothing but people who are willing to step all over you is going to be naturally unpleasant for anybody who isn't in a position to do the stepping.

Xykon's statement suggests otherwise. He's probably the most powerful Evil person in the OOTS world at this point in the story (excluding people on different planes), and he still considers the Lower Planes somewhere to be avoided at all costs.

[Keltest]

Xykon's statement suggests otherwise. He's probably the most powerful Evil person in the OOTS world at this point in the story (excluding people on different planes), and he still considers the Lower Planes somewhere to be avoided at all costs.

Xykon also suggests vampirism as a viable way of avoiding that fate, so one assumes that he is not an authority on the subject.

[hamishspence]

And he's technically right - if you're turned into a vampire, your soul is avoiding the Big Fire Down Below, as he puts it.

However, being trapped and unable to act, with a malevolent spirit taunting you with its control of your body, isn't exactly pleasant, either.

[ti'esar]

Xykon's statement suggests otherwise. He's probably the most powerful Evil person in the OOTS world at this point in the story (excluding people on different planes), and he still considers the Lower Planes somewhere to be avoided at all costs.

As it's generally been portrayed, the most powerful dead evil soul in a Lower Plane is still going to be second-rate next to the fiends that are actually native to that plane.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon also suggests vampirism as a viable way of avoiding that fate, so one assumes that he is not an authority on the subject.

Considering Xykon's attention spam and general treatment of "nerd" Redcloak, I would not call him an authority on anything but brutal sadistic murder.

[JennTora]

Xykon's statement suggests otherwise. He's probably the most powerful Evil person in the OOTS world at this point in the story (excluding people on different planes), and he still considers the Lower Planes somewhere to be avoided at all costs.

Was xykon really saying that, or was he essentially saying "with so many ways for evil people to avoid death, why should I be scared of two souls that couldn't even find a way to do so?"

[Psyren]

And he's technically right - if you're turned into a vampire, your soul is avoiding the Big Fire Down Below, as he puts it.

However, being trapped and unable to act, with a malevolent spirit taunting you with its control of your body, isn't exactly pleasant, either.

And that depends too. If you're truly evil, why would you care if a vampire spirit is doing the driving or you? It'd probably just be doing the same kinds of depraved stuff you would be, and you get to enjoy the show for eternity while avoiding the Castration Choir and all the other nasty stuff. And as with Malack, eventually you merge with the spirit and consider yourself to be one and the same. Again, for an evil character that might not be so bad.

That was only a bad fate for Durkon because he doesn't want to hurt people.

[Tyndmyr]

And that depends too. If you're truly evil, why would you care if a vampire spirit is doing the driving or you? It'd probably just be doing the same kinds of depraved stuff you would be, and you get to enjoy the show for eternity while avoiding the Castration Choir and all the other nasty stuff. And as with Malack, eventually you merge with the spirit and consider yourself to be one and the same. Again, for an evil character that might not be so bad.

That was only a bad fate for Durkon because he doesn't want to hurt people.

Well, some people definitely prefer to be in charge, rather than just watching the show. So, I suspect it depends on the kind of evil person. I suspect Xykon prefers lichdom for this reason, but yeah, depending on your goals, either's valid.

[Trillium]

I reckon a sufficiently evil person just surrenders to the vampiric spirit faster and they sorta meld together
the vampire's impulses and tendencies are the main driving forces, but host's personality is still there, it is still aware of its continued existence and gets to enjoy atrocities committed.
I.e. you retain awareness and are in charge as long as your goals, values and actions align with you vampiric self
Good souls are instead absorbed and dissolved as almost nothing in them is compatible with vampiric spirit's agenda. Even then, what aligns stays, so Greg's wish to hurt other dwarfs becomes sincere as he absorbs Durkon's rage at being cast out.

[Quebbster]

Well, some people definitely prefer to be in charge, rather than just watching the show. So, I suspect it depends on the kind of evil person. I suspect Xykon prefers lichdom for this reason, but yeah, depending on your goals, either's valid.

Xykon definitely had objections to being turned undead when Redcloak suggested it, but didn't mind so much when Redcloak pointed out he'd retain (and improve) his mental faculties.

[Fyraltari]

Xykon's statement suggests otherwise. He's probably the most powerful Evil person in the OOTS world at this point in the story (excluding people on different planes), and he still considers the Lower Planes somewhere to be avoided at all costs.

That does not mean he is more powerful than the other souls down there, he never actually defeated the subcontractors, he just forced V to let them go. Should he fight with Jephton the Unholy in the Big Fire Below, I am not 100% sure the fight would go his way.


Was xykon really saying that, or was he essentially saying "with so many ways for evil people to avoid death, why should I be scared of two souls that couldn't even find a way to do so?"

In this universe I don't think that reasoning is as sound as he thinks it is. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UndeathAlwaysEnds) Just ask Malack.

[Peelee]

In this universe I don't think that reasoning is as sound as he thinks it is. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/UndeathAlwaysEnds) Just ask Malack.

I don't think Malack was in the sharing mood. It's perfectly reasonable that Xykon didn't understand how an undeath different than his worked.

[Fyraltari]

I don't think Malack was in the sharing mood. It's perfectly reasonable that Xykon didn't understand how an undeath different than his worked.

I meant that Malack, despite being undead and thus having the potential to never die, died.

[Keltest]

I meant that Malack, despite undead and having the potential to never die, died.

Indeed, Greg points out that undead of any significant power level tend to become adventurer fodder one way or another.

[Peelee]

Indeed, Greg points out that undead of any significant power level tend to become adventurer fodder one way or another.

To be fair, nothing in D&D is truly immortal; they just keep going until they're destroyed, one way or another.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair, nothing in D&D is truly immortal; they just keep going until they're destroyed, one way or another.
Which means that (un)living status tells you squat about the threat posed by the individual.

[Peelee]

Which means that (un)living status tells you squat about the threat posed by the individual.

Not at all. A level X class character turned vampire is significantly more of a threat than a level X class character. Same for lich, or various other undead.

[Fyraltari]

Not at all. A level X class character turned vampire is significantly more of a threat than a level X class character. Same for lich, or various other undead.

Fine : the fact that the person in front of you has been to hell or similar is not a valid indicator of their threat level. Happier ?

[Peelee]

Fine : the fact that the person in front of you has been to hell or similar is not a valid indicator of their threat level. Happier ?

Well, yes, but that's mostly because I've decided to make an Alfredo sauce tonight.

If they've been to hell and are still in front of me, I'm going to assume a higher threat level than I would if they had not been to hell. Either they got back by themselves or have powerful friends, and neither scenario tends to scream "weak person."

[Psyren]

Well, some people definitely prefer to be in charge, rather than just watching the show. So, I suspect it depends on the kind of evil person. I suspect Xykon prefers lichdom for this reason, but yeah, depending on your goals, either's valid.

Oh undoubtedly they'd prefer total agency - but if the choice is being a voice in a vampire's head until merging, or eternal torture, they'd probably pick the former, is all I'm saying.


I reckon a sufficiently evil person just surrenders to the vampiric spirit faster and they sorta meld together
the vampire's impulses and tendencies are the main driving forces, but host's personality is still there, it is still aware of its continued existence and gets to enjoy atrocities committed.
I.e. you retain awareness and are in charge as long as your goals, values and actions align with you vampiric self
Good souls are instead absorbed and dissolved as almost nothing in them is compatible with vampiric spirit's agenda. Even then, what aligns stays, so Greg's wish to hurt other dwarfs becomes sincere as he absorbs Durkon's rage at being cast out.

Indeed.


That does not mean he is more powerful than the other souls down there, he never actually defeated the subcontractors, he just forced V to let them go. Should he fight with Jephton the Unholy in the Big Fire Below, I am not 100% sure the fight would go his way.

He might not be as strong as they were in life, but he's still "in the game" (and can keep getting stronger - as we saw at Kraagor's Gate) while they've already lost. So his contempt for them is understandable.

[Goblin_Priest]

Not at all. A level X class character turned vampire is significantly more of a threat than a level X class character. Same for lich, or various other undead.

Sure, but this all kind of wanes as a character gains levels. The advantages of being a lich are far greater at lvl 11 than at lvl 25. If one allows epic rules, one might even consider any template with an LA to be a serious handicap, because it drastically increases what's needed in order to gain more epic perks. Lich is a +4 LA! Takes the same xp for a human to get to level 24 than for a human lich to get to level 20... The XP required to go from 20 to 24 is the same as is required to go from 1 to 14, basically.

So while, sure, in a way, between a human sorcerer and a human lich sorcerer, one might assume the lich has an advantage, but on the other hand, given how rare and hard grinding to and past epic is, between an epic human sorcerer and an epic human lich sorcerer, odds are the non-lich would actually be tougher, if one assumes the world doesn't have any (or many) level 25+ (or equivalent LA) characters running around.

[thereaper]

Xykon's statement suggests otherwise. He's probably the most powerful Evil person in the OOTS world at this point in the story (excluding people on different planes), and he still considers the Lower Planes somewhere to be avoided at all costs.

The Lower Planes are punitive because of the sorts of things that inhabit it. These include Archfiends (infinite numbers of them, actually) and deities, the latter of which are definitely above Xykon's level.