(Pathfinder) Is Giving PC's Energy Drain Over Powered?

[Bobbyjackcorn]

I'll keep it short and simple.
I'm planning for a Monster-Player Campaign, one person wants to play a Wight Monk.
I've already worked out with him that if he played a character like that, the energy drain feature would only apply to the first attack, as it'd be overpowered otherwise. He agreed to this.
My question is, should I still allow the energy drain in the first place? If so, should I limit it, and how? If not, what should I give him to ensure his character isn't fundamentally weaker?
If it helps (and let's not get into some silly alignment argument over energy drain or being undead) he's a specifically good undead, if that helps come up with alternative abilities I could replace it with.

[Zanos]

It depends on the balance of your game. A first level monk potentially outputting 2 negative levels on a flurry is much stronger than a normal first level monk, though.

Are you using unchained monk?

[Bobbyjackcorn]

Are you using unchained monk?

Nope, just regular monk.

[edit] Yes, balance is important to me.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would put it at problematic at level 1, dropping off to useful but not game breaking by level 10.

If you have concerns about power level I would talk to your player and phase it in as he levels. At level 1 perhaps cha times per day. At level 6 make it cha times per encounter. At level 11 make it once per round. At level 16 make it every hit.

This assumes you have a party that is non-optimized. Players who really know their system well and play with solid mechanics will outpace that progression.

[ATHATH]

Instead of being a Wight, may I recommend being a Necropolitan to your player and dipping into Soul Eater for a single level?

[Bobbyjackcorn]

If you have concerns about power level I would talk to your player and phase it in as he levels. At level 1 perhaps cha times per day. At level 6 make it cha times per encounter. At level 11 make it once per round. At level 16 make it every hit.


This could work as one option, thank you!


Instead of being a Wight, may I recommend being a Necropolitan to your player and dipping into Soul Eater for a single level?

Well the issue with this would be that he doesn't want to be "a guy who uses energy drain" he wants to be "a wight". Other than that, it's a great suggestion, thanks!

[Shark Uppercut]

Give it a saving throw, not an automatic Negative Level. Since undead use Charisma, he will truly be MAD.
And while we're at it, let him be unchained, he's a monk.
What race wight?
If balance is important, post other players' race/template/classes and skill level.

[Bobbyjackcorn]

Give it a saving throw, not an automatic Negative Level. Since undead use Charisma, he will truly be MAD.
And while we're at it, let him be unchained, he's a monk.
What race wight?
If balance is important, post other players' race/template/classes and skill level.


Of the first, I like that idea, but I'm also worried that that might become tedious an less fun for everyone.

Of the second, we are trying to stick to books we have, and I don't have that book. It's a table-rule.

On the third, we haven't gotten that far yet. This is a recent idea.

On the fourth, as I said, it's a recent idea, so we are all still deciding. I'm just uncertain of how energy drain may be much stronger to a pc than it would be to a monster.

Thanks for the suggestions though, and I understand it's a little harder to gauge balance without a spread of what everyone else is doing yet, my apologies.

[Fouredged Sword]

Honestly, energy drain is weaker on a PC than it is on a monster. Monster's die. They die pretty quickly. Most monsters last perhaps 10 rounds from the moment the first player spots them.

Negative levels are not actually that crippling. They are a very broad, nearly always useful, debuff. That said, their real power is the fact that they hang around and sometimes turn permanent. A player who is nailed with a negative level is walking around with it all day. A monster doesn't last long enough for it to really be more potent than a temporary -1 to hit, -1 to save, -1 to skill checks, and some extra damage.

At low levels (1-3ish) it can be potent due to the fact that you can one shot SOME enemies with it, no save. At level 12 you are going to kill with HP damage before you kill with negative levels.

[Arael666]

What race wight?


I was always under the impression that wights are their own race

[Bobbyjackcorn]

Negative levels are not actually that crippling. They are a very broad, nearly always useful, debuff. That said, their real power is the fact that they hang around and sometimes turn permanent. A player who is nailed with a negative level is walking around with it all day. A monster doesn't last long enough for it to really be more potent than a temporary -1 to hit, -1 to save, -1 to skill checks, and some extra damage.

At low levels (1-3ish) it can be potent due to the fact that you can one shot SOME enemies with it, no save. At level 12 you are going to kill with HP damage before you kill with negative levels.

Very well thought out, very well said, thank you. You make a really good point, I feel less paranoid about it now that you put it like that.

[Shark Uppercut]

Yeah, giving the energy drain a save might be going too far. Maybe implement a sort of scaling, say:
Lvl1, the first attack per turn has 25% to inflict a NL.
Lvl4, the first attack per turn has 100% to inflict a NL.
Lvl8, the first two attacks per turn have 100% to inflict a NL.
Per turn means attacks you make, or attacks of opportunity you take before your next turn.

It still won't be good against 3 very dangerous kinds of enemies, Constructs, hostile Undead, and NPCs with lots of class abilities/magic items that give immunity.


I was always under the impression that wights are their own race
Technically the basic Bestiary Wight isn't a template, but that was probably to save space. A wight is a race just as much as a vampire or zombie, and a dwarf doesn't stop being a dwarf when they turn into a wight, vampire or zombie.

[Crake]

It's worth noting that there's nothing under wight that suggests any attack other than it's natural slam attack should apply a negative level.

[Florian]

Wight Monk.

Take a look at the Deadhand Style feat chain (Horror Adventures). Monks can already learn to deal negative levels with their strikes. Works pretty well with the Hungry Ghost archetype, too.
While energy drain can be a powerful ability, it´s actually quite dependent on what enemy types come up often, as regular monster HD tend to advance faster than their CR, making it unlikely to, say, drain a Hydra faster than it takes hp damage.

[Bobbyjackcorn]

It's worth noting that there's nothing under wight that suggests any attack other than it's natural slam attack should apply a negative level.

(I love a lot of your commentary on other threads, btw)
Actually, it's listed in their "Special attacks" section, and the decription of energy drain states it applies "when a melee or ranged attack hits."
If I'm misinterpreting that, let me know.


Take a look at the Deadhand Style feat chain (Horror Adventures). Monks can already learn to deal negative levels with their strikes. Works pretty well with the Hungry Ghost archetype, too.
While energy drain can be a powerful ability, it´s actually quite dependent on what enemy types come up often, as regular monster HD tend to advance faster than their CR, making it unlikely to, say, drain a Hydra faster than it takes hp damage.

Fascinating! I don't have that book, but I'll take a look.

[Calthropstu]

This thread is racist... talking about wight power.

[TotallyNotEvil]

At low level it might one-shot opponents... But so will a fighter swinging his Greatsword for 2d6+6.