Seven Deadly Sins - Does it deserve a thread?

[Kato]

So, after having watched the anime earlier this year I also got around to reading the manga. And my impression is... eh? :smallconfused:
I mean, it clearly is not up there with the best. Nothing in it compares to Oda's writing, or Naruto when it is / was good. But it's not... terrible either. I guess to me it is as if you evened out Fairy Tail, less tings that standout as good and less that stand out as bad.
I like most of the characters well enough, even with their flaws that are supposed to be charming (looking at you, perv-protagonist #123456789...) and the fights... well, look far better in the anime but they are often at least fine on the page. And make me look forward to seeing them in motion. The humor is most of the time okay. And the plot is... sometimes good? Okay, mostly fine, sometimes good, sometimes bad.
Often times it seems like some sudden plot event was foreshadowed a chapter before and that's it... which is miles way from proper foreshadowing. Or the power scale seems really off at times. Which I guess is something you come across with most shounen stories.. Or the fact that it suffers from Fairy Tail's "everyone gets redemption" syndrome. Apart from.. what, three characters so far? Something like that.

But overall... I liked it enough to catch up to the current chapter which did take a bit of work. Also, because some chapters are 90% dialogue... like, 90% of the panels are dialogue...... BUT STILL!

So, anyone else has something to say about the story? I'd be curious to hear it.



Also: I have to give credit to Nabaka Suzuki for his excellent taste in video games because he listed FF V as one of his favorites in one of the Q&A sections :smalltongue:

[JadedDM]

I liked it, except for all of the sexual assault jokes. It'd be nice if they toned those down, but I don't hold any hopes for it.

I quite like the music, too. Especially "Seven" and "Perfect Time."

I'm wondering when the new season is ever supposed to be released. All they did was release a handful of episodes awhile back that bridged the gap between the first season's climax and finale, but the actual second season (which I believe is supposed to be about the Ten Commandments, a group of demons) I've heard no word on.

[Chromascope3D]

I watched the first episode and then put it down. Granted, I was watching the dub, which didn't do it any favors (the voice of the pig made me want to claw my ears out), but it just struck me as something that's been done before and better elsewhere.

Also, assuming that all the characters are named after the deadly sins, then I actually wouldn't be offended by the perv protag if he turned out to be Lust, but since he's the main protagonist I assume he's something generic like Anger and that Lust is probably some buxom wench because tropes.

[Razade]

I watched the first episode and then put it down. Granted, I was watching the dub, which didn't do it any favors (the voice of the pig made me want to claw my ears out), but it just struck me as something that's been done before and better elsewhere.

Also, assuming that all the characters are named after the deadly sins, then I actually wouldn't be offended by the perv protag if he turned out to be Lust, but since he's the main protagonist I assume he's something generic like Anger and that Lust is probably some buxom wench because tropes.

Melodias is Wrath yes but it's not really assault. Elizebeth is his lover, reincarnated. It's a very large part of the later plot.

Lust is not, in fact a boxom chick, however. Gluttony is. Lust is an androgynous artificial human.

[JadedDM]

Melodias is Wrath yes but it's not really assault. Elizebeth is his lover, reincarnated.

Yeah, that doesn't make it better. Kind of actually makes it creepier, if anything.

[Pendulous]

I don't read manga, but I loved the anime so far. Yeah, some of the sins didn't seem like they matched up with the characters, but it didn't detract from anything really. It was just a fun story about a group of not-quite-humans redeeming themselves from a crime they didn't really commit in the first place.

Getting season 2 in January (http://www.ign.com/articles/2017/07/17/seven-deadly-sins-anime-movie-coming-summer-2018-new-season-to-premiere-in-january) too, which will be nice

[JadedDM]

Yeah, I still am not sure how Merlin's sin is Gluttony at all. But I get the feeling that the people who made the series have only a passing knowledge of Christianity. Or they just didn't care. (Like the Ten Commandments being demons.)

Hmm, is this a role reversal to all the times Western culture has just taken random elements of the East and mish-mashed them all together?

Anyway, January! Good to know. Now if they would just make an announcement about Log Horizon, The Devil is a Part-Timer and Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash.

[Kato]

Melodias is Wrath yes but it's not really assault. Elizebeth is his lover...

Lust is not, in fact a boxom chick, however. Gluttony is.

Some people really don't give an eff about spoilers, huh? :smalltongue:
You are right but I will also agree it hardly makes it better. Neither does her willingness to allow it, at least early on.

Also, I'd argue envy is more buxom than gluttony. Also possibly the sin that least fits her character.. With some it makes a little bit of sense or more but envy?

[Kato]

Ugh, double post,
sorry but editing on my phone is annoying..


Yeah, I still am not sure how Merlin's sin is Gluttony at all. But I get the feeling that the people who made the series have only a passing knowledge of Christianity. Or they just didn't care. (Like the Ten Commandments being demons.)

Hmm, is this a role reversal to all the times Western culture has just taken random elements of the East and mish-mashed them all together?

Gluttony fits her well enough once you realize it's her hunger for knowledge that it refers to.
And why is the commandments being demons worse than the sins being "people"?

But yes in quite a few aspects it pays tribute to western culture, but I don't think there is any ill intent behind it.

[JadedDM]

Gluttony fits her well enough once you realize it's her hunger for knowledge that it refers to.
I guess? But using that logic, you could say she is Lust (because she lusts for knowledge) or Greed (because she is greedy for all the knowledge). But I have no idea what her crime was yet, so who can say?


And why is the commandments being demons worse than the sins being "people"?
It's not. But I don't think the characters are meant to represent the sins, but each of them is guilty of their respective sin. That's why they were arrested in the first place, and later joined the group to redeem themselves. Ban stole the Fountain of Youth, so he was branded with 'Greed' and Melodias supposedly destroyed an entire kingdom, so his sin was 'Wrath.' And so on.

So why Diane is Envy, I don't know, because I don't know what her crime was that led to her joining the Sins in the first place.


I don't think there is any ill intent behind it.
No, I don't think so, either. I just find it a little amusing.

[Giggling Ghast]

I liked it, except for all of the sexual assault jokes. It'd be nice if they toned those down, but I don't hold any hopes for it.

The odd thing is that, unlike most "lecherous pervert" characters in anime, Meliodas only ever acts like a pervert towards his intended love interest.

I can see why it's problematic, but I'm not entirely certain Elizabeth really minds.

[Forum Explorer]

I guess? But using that logic, you could say she is Lust (because she lusts for knowledge) or Greed (because she is greedy for all the knowledge). But I have no idea what her crime was yet, so who can say?


It's not. But I don't think the characters are meant to represent the sins, but each of them is guilty of their respective sin. That's why they were arrested in the first place, and later joined the group to redeem themselves. Ban stole the Fountain of Youth, so he was branded with 'Greed' and Melodias supposedly destroyed an entire kingdom, so his sin was 'Wrath.' And so on.

So why Diane is Envy, I don't know, because I don't know what her crime was that led to her joining the Sins in the first place.


No, I don't think so, either. I just find it a little amusing.

Each of them is accused of their sin, but a bunch of them are actually innocent. Well, at least 3 or 4.

Ban didn't actually steal the Fountain, he was given it.

Diana was framed for attempting to murder her sister

Gowther was actually trying to bring the girl he loved back alive, though forcibly implanting his heart in her was a stupid idea and when he's found naked above her bloody corpse of course people thought the worst.

King is weird, as he's taking responsibility for his friend's crimes because he didn't stop him in time. So he's technically guilty but the crime is BS.

[Razade]

Some people really don't give an eff about spoilers, huh? :smalltongue:

The statute of limitations on spoilers runs out when

1. It's spelled out like...almost immediatly in the series

2. It's been at least a year since this knowledge has been out.

You are right but I will also agree it hardly makes it better. Neither does her willingness to allow it, at least early on.[/quote]

How does it not make it better that Elizebeth wants him to grope her. That means its consensual and...not creepy at all...It's also not Sexual Assault. By definition it's not sexual assault.


Yeah, that doesn't make it better. Kind of actually makes it creepier, if anything.

Consensual sex is creepy. K.


Also, I'd argue envy is more buxom than gluttony. Also possibly the sin that least fits her character.. With some it makes a little bit of sense or more but envy?

Their Sin is a crime they committed according to other people. Not an aspect of their character. Ban is Greed because people thought it was his greed for Eternal Life that caused him to kill the faires. Diane is Envy because people accused her of killing her best friend for being stronger than her. Gowther is Lust because they find him having carved out the heart of the woman he loved (and they just assumed there was sex going on).

It's literally nothing to do with an aspect of their character.

[Cozzer]

I've read a few chapters, both the ealier ones and the latest ones, and the my only opinion about this manga is "meh". I couldn't find a single character I liked or cared about (the only remotely interesting one is probably Gowther), so I gave up.

[Razade]

I've read a few chapters, both the ealier ones and the latest ones, and the my only opinion about this manga is "meh". I couldn't find a single character I liked or cared about (the only remotely interesting one is probably Gowther), so I gave up.

So you skipped all the parts where you'd possibly get reasons to care about the characters?

[Forum Explorer]

Quality wise, I actually like it a lot better then Naruto, which I was never that impressed with.

[Razade]

Quality wise, I actually like it a lot better then Naruto, which I was never that impressed with.

The art is better, at the very least.

[Forum Explorer]

The art is better, at the very least.

and more importantly, less flashback arcs that ruin the dramatic tension.

[Razade]

and more importantly, less flashback arcs that ruin the dramatic tension.

There have been a few more over the last few arcs but they've managed to roll them up into the actual plot.








Seven Deadly Sins may be generic Shonen. But it does what it does well. I really suggest anyone reading this thread to give it a go. It's hard to make an invincible, immortal character, well written and engaging. Ban's the best.

[Metahuman1]

It's flawed, but I enjoyed most of what I saw.


I would have liked the season 1 ending twist that Elizabeth is a Druid and thus has access to powers form an up to that point not seen race to be a bit better foreshadowed, would like them to tone down the pervert jokes sure. Wasn't wild about depowering what's her name and that being the end of her arc is "yup, world was right, you suck and are powerless and should just swallow it.". Or with Elizabeths sister presenting like she's gonna be a badass and then turning out to be a chump. I'd have just let her be capable in a fight, and had both the 2 New Gen members we were following depowered and then had a snippet at the party at the end were Gilthunder says "Now that I'm free to actually act. You two were never trained properly because you were being groomed for the New Generation Plan. Be in the courtyard, full gear, two days after the end of the festival, bright and early and ready to work like you've never worked before. I am going to personally make sure you get trained, properly this time. Will make real Holy Knights of you two yet." Bit more foreshadowing on the Elizabeth reveal, dial back the pervert humor, and I think this would have been a flat out favorite of mine.


Diane being the sin of envy I think may also have something to do with Japanese cultural standards and practices. Girls are suppose to really want to be small physically because small things are cute and desirable, is my understanding. So, being a massive as she is compared to the humans because she's of the Giant Race makes her on some level Envious of other women for NOT being like that. I didn't say it was great but I think it's there on some level.



I actually would probably pick her and King out as my absolute favorites so far of the show, though Merlin's Coming Up fast from what I've seen of her, and they all have enough charisma about them that I do enjoy watching them go to town. Even if I was utterly underwhelmed by the OVA stuff filling the gap between season 1 and 2 we got. (And seriously, WHY HAS THE KING NOT HIRED MERLIN TO KEEP MELIODUS'S HANDS OFF HIS YOUNGEST DAUGHTER BY NOW?!!!! WE'VE SEEN HE'S AFRAID OF PISSING MERLIN OFF AND WILL RESTRAIN HIMSELF IF SHE WANTS HIM TOO!!!!!!!)

[Giggling Ghast]

I was actually impressed how subtly Elizabeth's true Druidic nature was foreshadowed. If you watch carefully, Elizabeth's tears make contact with everyone who makes a miraculous recovery throughout the series.


Seven Deadly Sins may be generic Shonen. But it does what it does well. I really suggest anyone reading this thread to give it a go. It's hard to make an invincible, immortal character, well written and engaging. Ban's the best.

Well, he's immortal, at any rate. He gets reduced to paste so often that he can hardly be called "invincible."

[Psyren]

Couldn't stick with it, way too molesty/fanservicey. There are tons of superior anime I haven't even gotten to yet, so I'd rather not waste what little time I have on this.

[Kato]

The statute of limitations on spoilers runs out when

1. It's spelled out like...almost immediatly in the series

2. It's been at least a year since this knowledge has been out.

Or maybe when multiple people note they have only seen the anime and not read the manga? :smallconfused: And didn't ask to be told things from it specifically?



How does it not make it better that Elizebeth wants him to grope her. That means its consensual and...not creepy at all...It's also not Sexual Assault. By definition it's not sexual assault.

[...]

Consensual sex is creepy. K.

How come you have a tendency to make me want to be passive agressive towards you half the time? :smallsigh:
It's certainly NOT consensual when he gropes her when they just met, unless you insinuate Elizabeth is some closet pervert who likes being groped by people she forgot she knows. Because to all extents for her in the first episode(s) he's a total stranger.And it's not made better by the fact that he does it after saving her which gives off a vibe off "you know me, you need me, I can do what I want".

Yes, you could argue she is.. well, let us assume she doesn't mind it after her feelings for him develop. (Which I'd say is not guaranteed) It's still not fine because groping your SO in such an obvious way in public is still not something that is considered fine by the majority of people. Not sure how you treat your partner, but I'm sure most of your close friends would also be irritated if you lifted her skirt up in frint of them on a regular basis. Unless your social circle differs largely from most people.



Their Sin is a crime they committed according to other people. Not an aspect of their character. Ban is Greed because people thought it was his greed for Eternal Life that caused him to kill the faires. Diane is Envy because people accused her of killing her best friend for being stronger than her. Gowther is Lust because they find him having carved out the heart of the woman he loved (and they just assumed there was sex going on).

It's literally nothing to do with an aspect of their character.
That's at best half true... Neither Merlin nor Escanor nor Meliodas, heck, you can even argue King or Ban, were blamed for a crime. Meliodas was a Holy Knight for years and nobody blamed him for the destruction he caused due to his anger. (I'm not sure if people even knew it was his fault) And Merlin and Escanor were even less accused of crimes, i.e. not at all from all I know. For these it's entirely based on their character flaws.
The likely Watsonian explanation is when Merlin and Meliodas formed the special unit they just wanted a fancy name and then picked people based on their strength and assigned sins as best as they could.
The better Doylist explanation is Suzuki started out with the crime idea and then switched over to the personalities...
I guess you could still go along with Metahuman's explanation on Diane, adding her very short jealousy with Elizabeth (iirc), but envy is still a stretch. (I genuinely forgot about that whole arrest in her past)
Neither crime nor personality fit both, so there is clearly not one rule for assigning Sins.

[JadedDM]

How does it not make it better that Elizebeth wants him to grope her. That means its consensual and...not creepy at all...It's also not Sexual Assault. By definition it's not sexual assault.

She sure doesn't act like it's consensual. Yeah, they try and pass it off later on that Elizabeth is okay with it, that it somehow makes her feel 'nostalgic.' But when he does it, she doesn't act pleased or aroused. She screams, she tries to cover herself, and she begs him to stop.

[Pendulous]

Couldn't stick with it, way too molesty/fanservicey. There are tons of superior anime I haven't even gotten to yet, so I'd rather not waste what little time I have on this.

Uh...

Meliodas occasionally does something to Elizabeth. And he has her dress provocatively while being a waitress. If that's too much for you, then you haven't watched much anime. I get people aren't fans of fan service stuff, but Seven Deadly Sins is really light compared to a ton of other shows.

[JeenLeen]

I liked the series and look forward to more. I agree with most that Elizabeth is not consenting to Meliodias' advances at the start (though she doesn't seem nearly as bothered as one would think she would be), but by the end she is consenting and they are basically a romantic couple. Not saying what he does is okay, please note. I wish it wasn't so much grouping/fan-servicey, since if such was the case I think my wife would enjoy watching it with me.

On the naming: it seems they were called the Seven Deadly Sins even before they were blamed for... killing the major dude? I forget what led to their exile when the bad guys led what was essentially a military coup.
Based on that, I'd reckon it was just the name for that elite group. For some reason not fully explained.

When I was first watching the show, I figured that they were named the Seven Deadly Sins after being branded as traitors and exiles, in order to make them seem more like criminals and monsters to the population that used to hold them as heroes. But that just seems not to be the case.

I think it's cool how each holy knight seems to have a special power (e.g., Meliodias' full counter, the king's prescience, Gil's lightning stuff, etc.), potentially in addition to some bonus from an artifact. The show seems somewhat inconsistent on exactly how that works, and how limited in scope powers are to 'one thing' to 'being awesome at a ton of stuff', but it is neat.

Spoiler-wise, I'm kinda bummed to learn what Growther is from this thread, but since the series has been out a while, I think some details about season 1 aren't too bad to mention.
I figured Growther was some strange race not mentioned (i.e., not human, fey, giant, or demon) or some sort of demon. Growther's origins haven't been revealed in the show yet, right?

[Giggling Ghast]

Gowther's origins haven't been revealed in the show yet, right?

No, though I gather from reading about the manga that he's actually a living doll.

[Forum Explorer]

No, though I gather from reading about the manga that he's actually a living doll.

"I'm bummed about Gowther's origin being spoiled."

"Let me spoil that for you!" :smallyuk:


Seriously guys, the manga sounds like it's way way ahead of the anime in terms of where it's at in the story. Not everyone reads the manga, so please don't spoil things recklessly.

[Giggling Ghast]

Oh, I only caught the last sentence. TL;DR LOL :smalltongue:

[Friv]

Uh...

Meliodas occasionally does something to Elizabeth. And he has her dress provocatively while being a waitress. If that's too much for you, then you haven't watched much anime. I get people aren't fans of fan service stuff, but Seven Deadly Sins is really light compared to a ton of other shows.

Yeah, I tend to draw a line between "fan service" and "active sexual assault played as a joke". And yes, it is absolutely active sexual assault. There's an entire episode in which the degree to which Elizabeth hates this is how Melodious tells her apart from a bunch of imposters, which was when I checked the hell out and never came back.

And I watched Kill La Kill.

And loved it.

*EDIT* Hell, I watched Konosuba and basically liked it. At least there, the fact that the main character was kind of pervy is a thing that other people call him on and gets him in trouble. There is a really gross undertone to the molestation in Seven Deadly Sins that really stands apart from the rest.

[Razade]

How come you have a tendency to make me want to be passive agressive towards you half the time? :smallsigh:

Dunno, says more about you than it does about me I suppose. Maybe you're just wired that way. I'm not here to analyze you.


It's certainly NOT consensual when he gropes her when they just met, unless you insinuate Elizabeth is some closet pervert who likes being groped by people she forgot she knows. Because to all extents for her in the first episode(s) he's a total stranger.And it's not made better by the fact that he does it after saving her which gives off a vibe off "you know me, you need me, I can do what I want".

Some people have that kinda fetish. It's called Chikan in Japan. Not saying she has it, but even if the FIRST time is creepy...it stops being creepy when she consents. Which is...quick.


Yes, you could argue she is.. well, let us assume she doesn't mind it after her feelings for him develop. (Which I'd say is not guaranteed) It's still not fine because groping your SO in such an obvious way in public is still not something that is considered fine by the majority of people.

That's more on you than them. It still doesn't make it creepy OR assault. If it's consensual, it's not assault. Period.


Not sure how you treat your partner, but I'm sure most of your close friends would also be irritated if you lifted her skirt up in frint of them on a regular basis. Unless your social circle differs largely from most people.

That's not the same thing as assault though. Or creepy really.


That's at best half true... Neither Merlin nor Escanor nor Meliodas, heck, you can even argue King or Ban, were blamed for a crime.

We don't know Merlin or Escanor's crime yet. They've not been revealed. Melodias is ABSOLUTELY blamed for his crime but saying more would...be way spoilery. King almost created a war because of his (and was absolutely blamed considering how humans view him) and Ban was imprisoned and almost sealed away by the Faries and the humans both for what he did. They were absolutely blamed for their crimes in every sense of the word.

The rest of your post hinges on this and...you just don't know the series or the explanations. I'd say read it and you'll understand but you don't want to so...yeah. You don't know what you're talking about, you're making judgement calls based on a lack of information. No real point in arguing about it further.

[Friv]

That's more on you than them. It still doesn't make it creepy OR assault. If it's consensual, it's not assault. Period.


Yeah, and it's not consensual, so it's assault.

Unless your argument is that she learns to love being molested, in which case my opinion of this series has dropped even further than when this conversation started.

[Razade]

Yeah, and it's not consensual, so it's assault.

He says, having not watched the series or read the manga.

It is consensual. Elizebeth is in love with Melodias even before it's revealed they were lovers 3,000 years in the past. She wants him to touch her. That's consent in my neck of the woods.


Unless your argument is that she learns to love being molested, in which case my opinion of this series has dropped even further than when this conversation started.

That isn't my argument. My argument is that she's in love with him and wants him to touch her. Outright stated in the series. I don't know how much more not assault you can get than that but ya know. Maybe I'm crazy.

[Dragonus45]

Hmm, is this a role reversal to all the times Western culture has just taken random elements of the East and mish-mashed them all together?


Yep, and its hardly new. Its been a staple of the east for just about as long the west have been doing it.

[Knaight]

That isn't my argument. My argument is that she's in love with him and wants him to touch her. Outright stated in the series. I don't know how much more not assault you can get than that but ya know. Maybe I'm crazy.

This is essentially a retcon for the bulk of the first season, which really doesn't support this reading. The reading it does support is that it's something that Elizabeth doesn't like but puts up with because she needs the sins. This is without getting into how even if she did want him to touch her he had no way of knowing that and a whole bunch of evidence to the contrary, and there's a lot of room to be "more not assault" than "not assault by virtue of sheer dumb luck".

[Cozzer]

So you skipped all the parts where you'd possibly get reasons to care about the characters?

I gave this series the same chances I give to every other "big" shonen manga I discover... I read a couple volumes and couldn't bring myself to care about any character, then I read a few of the latest chapters to see if it looked like things were going to improve and it didn't. I mean, I'm not saying other people shouldn't like it, just that it failed to hook me.

[lord_khaine]

I would say, that since the main topic of discussion is the male leads groping of the female lead, then the answer to the titles question is: No, not really :smalltongue:

[JeenLeen]

Honestly, during the first few episodes of the anime, I read Elizabeth's response as not realizing that Meliodias was purposefully doing something offensive, or not exactly realizing something offensive or objectionable was happening. She seems to respond to with a sort of naivete and embarrassment such that she doesn't exactly realize something is wrong, but a similar embarrassment as if a breeze blew her skirt up. Meliodias' nonchalant way of groping seems to convey that nothing unusual is happening, which reinforces this naivete.

All of which is a pretty sick taking-advantage-of Elizabeth on Meliodias' behalf.

I don't buy the past-life love as a consensual thing. Elizabeth doesn't know Meliodias when they meet or, if she does, she doesn't know she knows him.
So, while I would agree it is consensual by the end of season 1, I can't see any evidence for her consenting at the start.

Caveat: if the manga stated something of her internal dialogue to show that she was consenting in some way, then I could see that as evidence. But the anime at least didn't have that.

From the flashbacks in season 1 of the anime, I just figured Elizabeth looked a lot like Meliodias' old girlfriend, and that's part of why he was taken with her.

I would say, that since the main topic of discussion is the male leads groping of the female lead, then the answer to the titles question is: No, not really :smalltongue:

While this does seem to be the main argument about the series that comes up when threads about it appear, I think it is a cool series with a lot going for it. Deep characters (even if they really don't seem deep at first), a cool background metaphysics for the superpowers/magic, etc. Handles cliches and inversions of cliches (the Holy Knights are the bad guys; the evil exiled knights are actually all good) with a fair mix that is entertaining and makes the show not overly predictable. Nice mix of humor and action (and awesome combinations of it when Meliodias and Ban fight.)

I guess I'm saying that this topic being predominant doesn't mean that it's the predominant thing in the anime.

[Kato]

Some people have that kinda fetish. It's called Chikan in Japan. Not saying she has it, but even if the FIRST time is creepy...it stops being creepy when she consents. Which is...quick.
Well, can you say with certainty she has this fetish/consents? And at what point? Because early on... (see below)


That's more on you than them. It still doesn't make it creepy OR assault. If it's consensual, it's not assault. Period.

That's not the same thing as assault though. Or creepy really.
I don't want to dwell on the assault bit, but as you say, it's not assault if it's consensual, something that is very unlikely in the first few episodes/chapters.



We don't know Merlin or Escanor's crime yet. They've not been revealed. Melodias is ABSOLUTELY blamed for his crime but saying more would...be way spoilery. King almost created a war because of his (and was absolutely blamed considering how humans view him) and Ban was imprisoned and almost sealed away by the Faries and the humans both for what he did. They were absolutely blamed for their crimes in every sense of the word.

The rest of your post hinges on this and...you just don't know the series or the explanations. I'd say read it and you'll understand but you don't want to so...yeah. You don't know what you're talking about, you're making judgement calls based on a lack of information. No real point in arguing about it further.
Uhm... I'd direct you to my initial post stating I have read the manga so...
I'd like you to point out when it was stated Meliodas got... well, maybe blamed is too poor a phrasing but "in legal trouble" for his actions.
And I'll admit my phrasing was a bit confused earlier on, Ban and King got into trouble "due to their sins", but we have absolutely no indication Merlin or Escanor did, and never even a statement the sins were all recruited from prison Elizabeth's word of mouth once they were "brutal criminals". But later in Meliodas' flashback there's not even a mention of them being (necessarily) criminals, just extraordinary people.



It is consensual. Elizebeth is in love with Melodias even before it's revealed they were lovers 3,000 years in the past. She wants him to touch her. That's consent in my neck of the woods.
I'm not sure you are aware what "she wants him to touch her even if she doesn't know it" sounds like...



I would say, that since the main topic of discussion is the male leads groping of the female lead, then the answer to the titles question is: No, not really :smalltongue:
It's quite a shame but I guess you're right. :smallsigh:

[Callos_DeTerran]

I like this series. It was fun and had some cool characters/interactions. Honestly, I had just lost hope for a full second season to be aired, so this is good news to me. Been meaning to watch more anime and I can't wait to see Escanor in action.

[Razade]

This is essentially a retcon for the bulk of the first season, which really doesn't support this reading. The reading it does support is that it's something that Elizabeth doesn't like but puts up with because she needs the sins. This is without getting into how even if she did want him to touch her he had no way of knowing that and a whole bunch of evidence to the contrary, and there's a lot of room to be "more not assault" than "not assault by virtue of sheer dumb luck".

Well...he did know...remember the whole

Elizebeth is the reincarnation of Meliodas's love from the Goddess Clan and at least currently has all her memories and very very clearly is in love with him in more than a romantic way


I don't want to dwell on the assault bit, but as you say, it's not assault if it's consensual, something that is very unlikely in the first few episodes/chapters.

Sure, and that's certainly fair. It's not assault throughout and that's not how people are portraying it.


Uhm... I'd direct you to my initial post stating I have read the manga so...

It doesn't appear you have considering all the stuff you're taking out of context. I also don't know how I could have spoiled anything for you if you'd read it.


I'd like you to point out when it was stated Meliodas got... well, maybe blamed is too poor a phrasing but "in legal trouble" for his actions.

"In legal trouble" isn't the only method of having a crime or blamed for something. Especially considering that's a very modern, our world perspective and that at least four of the people in question aren't beholden to the laws of humans. But Melodias, like all the other seven deadly sins, WERE found guilty by the Kingdom of Liones. This is before they were accused of killing Zaratras

Melodias (Chapter 39) expresses that he considers his crime to be not saving Liz (Elizebeth's previous incarnation) and Danafor. He expressly states that.

Other people, OTHER PEOPLE, attributed the destruction to his wrath and that it was Meliodas that annihilated Danafor. We know at least one person (the old knight that used fire...forget his name) certainly thought and tried to kill Meliodas because of this fact. So there's at least two examples


And I'll admit my phrasing was a bit confused earlier on, Ban and King got into trouble "due to their sins"

So was Diane. She was almost executed until Meliodas saved her life. Ban was also sentenced to death as well by the Faries. King was also imprisoned for one thousand years for almost causing a war between the faeries and man. Growther was also accused of and sentenced for killing Nadja. So that's four of seven and we don't know two.


no indication Merlin or Escanor did, and never even a statement the sins were all recruited from prison Elizabeth's word of mouth once they were "brutal criminals". But later in Meliodas' flashback there's not even a mention of them being (necessarily) criminals, just extraordinary people.

Wow....just....

1. We don't know Merlin or Escanor's past. Their "Crime" has yet to be specified. We only know of five of the seven crimes and of those five, FOUR of them were sentenced by some governing body and put away for their crimes. Ban, Diane, King and Growther were all

2. No one has claimed they were all recruited from jail. You don't have to go to prison or jail (not the same thing at least where I come from) to be a criminal or having carried out a crime. Except ya know. At least four of seven were imprisoned or sentenced for a crime they comitted.

3. It is expressly stated in the Seven Laws of the Sins that no one ask about their sin. Chapter 39 as well. You can go look it up. This is a law Meliodas made up, so he's at least acknowledging that the rest of the Seven seem to think they've committed some great crime.



I'm not sure you are aware what "she wants him to touch her even if she doesn't know it" sounds like...

Since I never said that, I don't know how you're making a claim of my awareness of it or not. I haven't even implied it.

[Seanfall]

I've been reading it...thinking of giving it up because the Author seems hellbent on making Meliodas 'the most strongest evah!' doesn't help that his Dub VA is the same guy who voices Kirito. *le sigh*

He molests Elizabeth past the point of absurdity. "No it's okay she's the reincarnation who currently." *holds up hand* Key word there being 'CURRENTLY' As in now. Not in the beginning. And doesn't matter cause she still never consented. Their shouldn't be an argument. Did he ask? No. It's molestation then.

Asspull victories. When he fights Ban (who I will admit is my favorite character.) in the mini Tournament arc revolving around getting Diane her weapon back. He beats Ban in a bull**** manner. Ban steals his strength using Fox Hunt and outclasses Meliodas. But then 'Oh no guys see he have secret demon strength'....whyyyy couldn't Ban steal that when he stole Meliodas's strength? We've seen that he can steal Demon's strength and stamina later on so...why did Meliodas still have this power?

Spoiler for recent Manga Arc.

The recent fight against Escanor. I obviously was rooting for Escanor to **** stomp the little turd and leave him as a pile of broken bones torn skin and bleeding pain....I didn't get that. What I got was an aggravating fight in which Escanor is outclassed until he becomes 'the one' and even then Merlin has to explain that he used up all the solar power he's saved up over the years....*long intake of breath* Why even have the Sins if Meliodas is gonna just be arbitrarily stronger then all of them?

Oh and it turns out the Demon King wants him back.


Subjective as all **** but I also find his power really...really boring. It has only one application, bouncing an attack back. Oh wait no I'm sorry, bouncing a 'Power/Magic' attack back. Ban, King, Gowther, Diane, Merlin, and Escanor all get really neat flexible powers that have dozens if not hundreds of applications. While the MC gets 'reflect' basically. Hell even the Pig and Elizabeth have more interesting powers.

So why do I still read it? ....I like pretty much all of the Sins except Meliodas. I love love love Ban. King and Diane have some great beats. Gowther is a tragic figure who makes some big mistakes. Merlin is fun and Escanor is entertaining with how he flips personalities.

[lord_khaine]

I've been reading it...thinking of giving it up because the Author seems hellbent on making Meliodas 'the most strongest evah!' doesn't help that his Dub VA is the same guy who voices Kirito. *le sigh*

Thats honestly what made me stop reading it as well. In the end Meliodas just became to grating to read about.

[Kato]

I know I should just quit but... I can be stubborn, in rare circumstances. I'll cut some things short...


[majority concerning the whole "groping/assault" discussion]
So you at least agree it was assault until some unspecified point in time when Elizabeth started to like it? (Taking the neutral ground between "she never liked it" and "she always liked it")

[quote]
It doesn't appear you have considering all the stuff you're taking out of context. I also don't know how I could have spoiled anything for you if you'd read it.

I'm sorry I can't 0remember every page of a 200+ chapter manga and do disagree with you on some points? :smallconfused:
Also, there is such a thing as "thinking off other people" and I was trying to give a chance to get spoilt on what they want to get spoilt on.



"In legal trouble" isn't the only method of having a crime or blamed for something. Especially considering that's a very modern, our world perspective and that at least four of the people in question aren't beholden to the laws of humans. But Melodias, like all the other seven deadly sins, WERE found guilty by the Kingdom of Liones. This is before they were accused of killing Zaratras

Melodias (Chapter 39) expresses that he considers his crime to be not saving Liz (Elizebeth's previous incarnation) and Danafor. He expressly states that.

Other people, OTHER PEOPLE, attributed the destruction to his wrath and that it was Meliodas that annihilated Danafor. We know at least one person (the old knight that used fire...forget his name) certainly thought and tried to kill Meliodas because of this fact. So there's at least two examples

So was Diane. She was almost executed until Meliodas saved her life. Ban was also sentenced to death as well by the Faries. King was also imprisoned for one thousand years for almost causing a war between the faeries and man. Growther was also accused of and sentenced for killing Nadja. So that's four of seven and we don't know two.


I had to go back because I totally forgot about him. Well, I mostly forgot about him. His name is Cain and he's not a knight of Liones, so I'd still like to see something suggesting they found him guilty. Because the flashback from Zaratras and the King meeting him and Elizabeth right after the destruction suggests nothing like it. I will totally admit, before chapter 182 it seemed very likely there had been such an event but nothing in that flashback suggests Meliodas or Merlin were in any trouble that would have led Liones to find them guilty of anything. It makes it seem far more as if the the other four Sins being in jail at the time was a coincidence.




Wow....just....

Just to make something clear: I'm not saying early on this "the sins are criminals" thing wasn't very much a thing that was important and for four of them I'll definitely admit I may have forgotten some sentences but yes, they were criminals. Meliodas... we're discussing. But concerning the most recent two...
"We don't know their crime" but we also never got any hints about them being criminals. With the early characters it was made obvious there was such a thing even if we didn't learn about it precisely (presumably because Suzuki still very much cared to have this be critical) but since Merlin or Escanor's appearance, Merlin's being still during the first season of the anime, nobody ever made any mention of them being criminals. If I was really cynical, I'd say Suzuki totally forgot about that bit.. The same goes for the Laws of the Sins. I'll have to be the cynic again... We got one law early on and then NONE for years. It feels like something Suzuki wanted to do and then forgot because otherwise we'd have gotten something more out of that.



Since I never said that, I don't know how you're making a claim of my awareness of it or not. I haven't even implied it.
Again, I'll admit, me culpa: I misread the part as "she was in love with him even if she didn't know it yet".



Subjective as all **** but I also find his power really...really boring. It has only one application, bouncing an attack back. Oh wait no I'm sorry, bouncing a 'Power/Magic' attack back. Ban, King, Gowther, Diane, Merlin, and Escanor all get really neat flexible powers that have dozens if not hundreds of applications. While the MC gets 'reflect' basically. Hell even the Pig and Elizabeth have more interesting powers.

So why do I still read it? ....I like pretty much all of the Sins except Meliodas. I love love love Ban. King and Diane have some great beats. Gowther is a tragic figure who makes some big mistakes. Merlin is fun and Escanor is entertaining with how he flips personalities.
How are Ban's powers that much more entertaining than Meliodas'? He steals stuff and he's immortal. Not saying Meliodas' poers aren't a bit lame but Ban is not really better in that regard. I mean, I like both of them well enough but I don't quite see why the one gets (in general) so much more love than the other)

[Razade]

I'm sorry I can't remember every page of a 200+ chapter manga and do disagree with you on some points? :smallconfused:
Also, there is such a thing as "thinking off other people" and I was trying to give a chance to get spoilt on what they want to get spoilt on.

I just assumed that anyone coming into the thread would understand we'd be discussing the series and that would include current stuff. You didn't specify the anime as our only point of discussion and you didn't ask for spoiler warnings. The thing I spoiled in question was a year old, that is well within discussion territory in ANY other anime thread without fear of being losing their collective minds It's not like I spoiled the most recent or even ten most recent chapters. No one has a problem with people discussing Punk Hazard or Dressrosa in the One Piece thread without spoiler warnings. Same principle here. So yeah. On you, I think, this one is.



I had to go back because I totally forgot about him. Well, I mostly forgot about him. His name is Cain and he's not a knight of Liones, so I'd still like to see something suggesting they found him guilty. Because [spoiler] the flashback from Zaratras and the King meeting him and Elizabeth right after the destruction suggests nothing like it. I will totally admit, before chapter 182 it seemed very likely there had been such an event but nothing in that flashback suggests Meliodas or Merlin were in any trouble that would have led Liones to find them guilty of anything. It makes it seem far more as if the the other four Sins being in jail at the time was a coincidence.

It's almost like backstories are revealed in pieces. :smalltongue: With the backstory of Merlin still not being revealed at present.


Just to make something clear: I'm not saying early on this "the sins are criminals" thing wasn't very much a thing that was important and for four of them I'll definitely admit I may have forgotten some sentences but yes, they were criminals. Meliodas... we're discussing. But concerning the most recent two...

Meliodas was a criminal 3,000 years ago too when the Goddess and Devil Clans fought against one another. So ya know. The case for him being a criminal is unquestionable. Just is.


"We don't know their crime" but we also never got any hints about them being criminals.

Except us being told that the Seven Sins were comprised of criminals. Which ya know. Means the other two too. We don't need to be told individually when we're told the whole group as a collective are. That's how language works. All those dogs are good boys. Sparky is a good boy because he's part of all those dogs. Merlin was a criminal because the Seven Deadly Sins are comprised of criminals. Same logic.


With the early characters it was made obvious there was such a thing even if we didn't learn about it precisely (presumably because Suzuki still very much cared to have this be critical) but since Merlin or Escanor's appearance, Merlin's being still during the first season of the anime, nobody ever made any mention of them being criminals. If I was really cynical, I'd say Suzuki totally forgot about that bit.. The same goes for the Laws of the Sins. I'll have to be the cynic again... We got one law early on and then NONE for years. It feels like something Suzuki wanted to do and then forgot because otherwise we'd have gotten something more out of that.

When we're introduced to Merlin we're told she had to flee to Camalot because of the death of Zaratas. So when we were first introduced she WAS a criminal. Also we aren't told King is a criminal when he first appears. He appears as an antagonist first, we don't learn about his crime until the old dude is revealed to be a fairy in disguise. We're not told about Diane's crime until she loses her memory and flees back to the Giants. Which is WAY WAY later. We only know Ban is a criminal and that comes part and parcel with him being a THIEF. We don't learn about Growther being a criminal until he gets his heart back and the memory bit with Diane is resolved. So yeah. You're just...off base here.

Also see above.

[Spirit Turtle]

I made it about five episodes in and never continued. I wasn't impressed and it didn't seem to be doing anything that a dozen other shows haven't already done and done better.

[Rodin]

I made it about five episodes in and never continued. I wasn't impressed and it didn't seem to be doing anything that a dozen other shows haven't already done and done better.

Pretty much my experience. Started watching, found the groping incredibly skeevy, stopped after one episode. Heard friends raving about it, went and forced myself to watch the first 5 episodes...and still found it quite boring and even skeevier. I didn't continue - with a total lack of interesting characters and a doormat of a heroine who's only there for fanservice purposes, why keep watching?

[Giggling Ghast]

Spoiler: Elizabeth is actually ridiculously powerful.

[lord_khaine]

Mainly as a healer from the few glimpses i had gotten though. And still seemingly completely dependent on the Main character.

[Bohandas]

When's season 2 of the anime supposed to actually start in earnest (or if it already has, when's it supposed to get to netflix)?

[JadedDM]

Episodes 1-6 have already been released.

As for when it will show up on Netflix, past experience tells me the whole season will go up after it's finished.

[Razade]

Mainly as a healer from the few glimpses i had gotten though. And still seemingly completely dependent on the Main character.

Yeah no. Like, on par with the other Sins in combat too.

[Calemyr]

I don't think Meliodus was imprisoned for his Sin. Liones doesn't have the jurisdiction to punish him for any of the things we've been told about in his pre-Sin past. I think he just carries the guilt with him, knowing that his Wrath has made him do things he'll never forgive himself for but he is also unwilling and unable to just shut down and die. He has to keep moving, he has to do something, even if it's just travelling around in a portable bar selling good drink and bad food, or serving as a knight to support an old buddy of his. I imagine he's the one that founded the Sins, attracting the group due to his charisma and a shared suffering for the guilt they feel rather than the crimes they are accused of. If you've ever played Planescape: Torment, he's kinda like the Nameless One in that he's a broken thing that draws other broken things into his orbit.

The whole Elizabeth thing... I don't know how to read it. If Elizabeth responded a more traditional way, it'd be much easier to hate Meliodus. Instead, she gives this next-to-nothing reaction where she doesn't seem to think there's anything wrong with his behavior for the most part. She sits up with his hand on her chest and doesn't even acknowledge the fact. She never gets mad about his behavior and hardly ever is even embarrassed. And the fact that it's so single-target adds to the strangeness of it all, never showing attraction to Diane regardless of her actions - which could get really aggressive when she's human sized. Outside of being able to tell a woman's measurements at a glance, there's no indication he even looks at anyone but her. I don't like watching him act like that, at all, and the show would be much better if he behaved himself, but their relationship is strange enough on both sides that all I can do is shrug and think "as long as they're both happy...".

It has its flaws, but it's a pretty fun show. The Sins aren't the cliched representation of their sins, tending to be more complex and approaching the concepts from unusual angles and using the sin to build the character up rather than shave them down to a single word. The action's good, the music's on point, and the characterization is engaging. Yeah. Fun show.

[Giggling Ghast]

It’s an odd inversion of the usual anime trope involving a lecherous character acting like a pervert towards everyone EXCEPT their love interest.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CantActPervertedTowardALoveInterest

Instead, Meliodas only acts like a lech towards his love interest and nobody else.

[JeenLeen]

On the lechery: I think it gets better, in a sense, as their relationship becomes two-sided, that is, as she starts to get affection for him. At first, yeah, it's weird (especially her non-reaction/naivete about it), but it seems within the scope of anime tropes, so it never bothered me a lot. If it wasn't anime, and one with a kinda silly feel part of the time, it'd probably bother me more.

I do wish it wasn't there. Mainly because I think my wife would enjoy watching it with me if it wasn't there.


Yeah no. Like, on par with the other Sins in combat too.

I've only seen the anime (season 1 and those first episodes of season 2 on Netflix.) Did she fight near the end of season 1? Been a while so I don't remember.

[Kato]

I've only seen the anime (season 1 and those first episodes of season 2 on Netflix.) Did she fight near the end of season 1? Been a while so I don't remember.

No, she only got her powers recently in the manga and so far she did like one thing with them. So.. Yeah, she might have now access to quite a well of magic power but calling her a fighter seems inappropriate.

Also... Hooray for sudden power ups that put you in league with the most powerful characters?

[Giggling Ghast]

I've only seen the anime (season 1 and those first episodes of season 2 on Netflix.) Did she fight near the end of season 1? Been a while so I don't remember.

She’s the first person in that final battle to actually injure Hendrickson after he drinks the Gray Demon’s blood. No other attack even scratched him until Elizabeth unleashed her power.

That’s where the fight turns against him, thanks to her simultaneously weakening Hendrickson and healing everyone else.

And best of all, she didn’t this without even consciously knowing what she had done.

[lord_khaine]

She’s the first person in that final battle to actually injure Hendrickson after he drinks the Gray Demon’s blood. No other attack even scratched him until Elizabeth unleashed her power.

That’s where the fight turns against him, thanks to her simultaneously weakening Hendrickson and healing everyone else.

And best of all, she didn’t this without even consciously knowing what she had done.

Is that sarcastic? If she does so without even having a concious idea of what she were doing, then its not even her own agency being shown.

And if all she does is heal and debuff, then she isnt a fighter. She is just support.

[Razade]

Is that sarcastic? If she does so without even having a concious idea of what she were doing, then its not even her own agency being shown.

It's still her power. She does way more later.


And if all she does is heal and debuff, then she isnt a fighter. She is just support.

But she doesn't just heal and debuff. She is a fighter on par with Mel. I mean...she just is. There's no debate here.

[lord_khaine]

It's still her power. She does way more later.

If she dont do anything conciously then its less her having a power and more her being a mcguffin. If she actively does things of her own accord later on then its a different matter.


But she doesn't just heal and debuff. She is a fighter on par with Mel. I mean...she just is. There's no debate here.

There certainly is debate about it if all the argument that can be offered is "she just is"
Does she actively fight or beat someone up who powerwise is in the ballpark of Mel?

If so then yes she clearly moves on from the support role later on.

[Bohandas]

Can I just say that I love how Meliodas' day job is handled. It's a combination of so many fantasy cliches including the mysterious store that wasn;t there yesterday and the tavern keeper who is actually an epic level NPC who can totally beat the crap out of your high level PCs if they try to rob him

[Bohandas]

Episodes 1-6 have already been released.

I can only see the first four. Why isn't mine letting me access the other two?

[JadedDM]

I can only see the first four. Why isn't mine letting me access the other two?

Three now, as episode 7 came out the other day.

It's not on Netflix yet. Probably won't be until the season ends, then they'll put the whole thing up like usual.