quick question

[kaskavel]

Some quick questions I have
1. A player got trapped in a room with an allip and fell. Will he eventually be rescued dead or unconsious?
2. Can a player use spring attack without moving before the attack? Meaning, can he hit an adjacent target and retreat without provoking aoo? Answer seems to be no, but a player may still declare that he moves 5 foot before attacking "circling around his opponent", which seems a bit strange to me...(making an otherwise pointless step which helps him at the end)
3. Is a creature with reach and combat reflexes able to make multiple aoo against the same target for the same reason (wandering through his threatened space)?
4. In temple of elemental evil PC game the fighters use the cleave feats whenever they get aoo. 5-6 enemies surround the fighter, then comes the next one to pass through, he gets killed and the fighter keeps attacking. This ends up with the fighter killing 10s of opponents without even having played his turn...Is this correct? The standing opponent should not be punished because some stupid ally walked through the back of the fighter
5. Cursed items are fun but how do you tend to handle players who try to sell them pretending they do not know their true nature? This can easily end up in them counting as normal treasure. The Dm's Guide section on the issue is not convincing enough...
Thanks and sorry if questions have obvious answers I do not see.

[KillianHawkeye]

Some quick questions I have
1. A player got trapped in a room with an allip and fell. Will he eventually be rescued dead or unconsious?

Allips don't seem to possess any means of dealing lethal damage to their opponents, so if you can rescue him before he starves to death or something more dangerous comes along to finish him off, he'll simply be in a coma until the permanent Wisdom drain is healed.


2. Can a player use spring attack without moving before the attack? Meaning, can he hit an adjacent target and retreat without provoking aoo? Answer seems to be no, but a player may still declare that he moves 5 foot before attacking "circling around his opponent", which seems a bit strange to me...(making an otherwise pointless step which helps him at the end)

"You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack."


3. Is a creature with reach and combat reflexes able to make multiple aoo against the same target for the same reason (wandering through his threatened space)?

No, multiple squares of movement in the same round only count as a single opportunity.


4. In temple of elemental evil PC game the fighters use the cleave feats whenever they get aoo. 5-6 enemies surround the fighter, then comes the next one to pass through, he gets killed and the fighter keeps attacking. This ends up with the fighter killing 10s of opponents without even having played his turn...Is this correct? The standing opponent should not be punished because some stupid ally walked through the back of the fighter

Yes, you can benefit from the Cleave feat on any attack, even Attacks of Opportunity, provided you meet the criterion of dropping an enemy. However, you need to have Great Cleave in order to get more than one cleave usage per round.


5. Cursed items are fun but how do you tend to handle players who try to sell them pretending they do not know their true nature? This can easily end up in them counting as normal treasure. The Dm's Guide section on the issue is not convincing enough...
Thanks and sorry if questions have obvious answers I do not see.

This is less of a "quick question", but I'll give you my opinion.

If they're trying to pass off a cursed item as something else, that's a Bluff check. If they succeed, you might let them sell the item, but eventually the person who buys it will find out that it is cursed and be pretty mad about it. It's up to the DM to determine what kinds of consequences should result from situations like that.

Alternatively, it might be standard practice for merchants who buy used magic items to have them identified before finalizing the transaction. Otherwise, how do they really know what the item is really worth? But even then, there's a low chance of identify revealing a cursed item's true properties. This could still put more work onto the shoulders of anyone trying to Bluff about it, since they need to know how the item appears under an identify spell.

At the end of the day, if your players want to introduce cursed items into your world's magic item economy, they run the risk of getting into trouble with the law or with any trade guilds that might exist there. And obviously, it should become par for the course that they'll eventually be in the position of being the ones to buy a cursed item from a shop keeper who doesn't know any better.

Not to mention the fact that knowingly selling dangerous goods to unsuspecting people should probably be a mark towards Evil on their collective alignments....

[Blue Jay]

Some quick questions I have
1. A player got trapped in a room with an allip and fell. Will he eventually be rescued dead or unconsious?
2. Can a player use spring attack without moving before the attack? Meaning, can he hit an adjacent target and retreat without provoking aoo? Answer seems to be no, but a player may still declare that he moves 5 foot before attacking "circling around his opponent", which seems a bit strange to me...(making an otherwise pointless step which helps him at the end)
3. Is a creature with reach and combat reflexes able to make multiple aoo against the same target for the same reason (wandering through his threatened space)?
4. In temple of elemental evil PC game the fighters use the cleave feats whenever they get aoo. 5-6 enemies surround the fighter, then comes the next one to pass through, he gets killed and the fighter keeps attacking. This ends up with the fighter killing 10s of opponents without even having played his turn...Is this correct? The standing opponent should not be punished because some stupid ally walked through the back of the fighter
5. Cursed items are fun but how do you tend to handle players who try to sell them pretending they do not know their true nature? This can easily end up in them counting as normal treasure. The Dm's Guide section on the issue is not convincing enough...
Thanks and sorry if questions have obvious answers I do not see.

1. If he was Wis-drained to 0, he's unconscious. But, Wis drain can't be recovered, except by a restoration spell; so he'll remain unconscious until you cast the spell.
2. No, not by RAW. The 5-foot-step thing is legal, though.
3. No, it's still one AoO per opportunity.
4. Yes, you can use Cleave with an AoO, but it's only once per round. Great Cleave makes it unlimited.
5. Sounds like a player isn't honoring the line between IC and OOC. I'd let them sell it after they've paid their dues in annoyance, but I usually don't like doing mean things to my players, so I haven't used any cursed items yet.

[SirNibbles]

Some quick questions I have
1. A player got trapped in a room with an allip and fell. Will he eventually be rescued dead or unconsious?
2. Can a player use spring attack without moving before the attack? Meaning, can he hit an adjacent target and retreat without provoking aoo? Answer seems to be no, but a player may still declare that he moves 5 foot before attacking "circling around his opponent", which seems a bit strange to me...(making an otherwise pointless step which helps him at the end)
3. Is a creature with reach and combat reflexes able to make multiple aoo against the same target for the same reason (wandering through his threatened space)?
4. In temple of elemental evil PC game the fighters use the cleave feats whenever they get aoo. 5-6 enemies surround the fighter, then comes the next one to pass through, he gets killed and the fighter keeps attacking. This ends up with the fighter killing 10s of opponents without even having played his turn...Is this correct? The standing opponent should not be punished because some stupid ally walked through the back of the fighter
5. Cursed items are fun but how do you tend to handle players who try to sell them pretending they do not know their true nature? This can easily end up in them counting as normal treasure. The Dm's Guide section on the issue is not convincing enough...
Thanks and sorry if questions have obvious answers I do not see.

1. The Allip won't kill him, though it might drain his Wisdom to 0 permanently.
2. No. Spring Attack requires you to move at least 5 feet before and after the attack.

"You must move at least 5 feet both before and after you make your attack in order to utilize the benefits of Spring Attack."

He can circle his opponent but that provokes AoOs from that opponent before the attack. Once he attacks, he no longer provokes for moving through that opponent's threatened squares. You can't take a 5 foot step to accomplish this because you can't make 5 foot steps and move in the same round.

ROTG claims that you don't provoke from the enemy you are going to attack, even before you make the attack, which makes no sense.

Skip's ruling: "To get the benefit from this feat, you must move and attack a foe, and you must move at least 5 feet both before and after the attack. When you do so, your movement before and after the attack doesn't provoke any attacks of opportunity from that foe, no matter how many threatened squares you leave. Other foes that threaten the squares you leave still can make attacks of opportunity against you."

_

"...you can move both before and after the attack, provided that your total distance moved is not greater than your speed. Moving in this way does not provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender you attack..." - Player's Handbook, page 100

Personally, I don't see how you can be immune to something because of an event which has not yet occurred.

3. AoOs are provoked for leaving, not entering, a threatened square. If you have a spear and a goblin 15 feet away moves towards you, he does not provoke for his first step (entering a threatened square) but he does provoke for his second step (leaving a threatened square). If you have enough reach that an enemy is leaving a threatened square multiple times, it provokes only once.

"Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent." - Player's Handbook, page 138

4. You can Cleave on AoOs. You can only Cleave once per round unless you have Great Cleave.

5. No advice here.

[kaskavel]

Thank you for the answers. 2 and 4 still trouble me somewhat...
2. If for example player is face to face with an opponent (has his opponent in his "up-square" for example), attacks and retreats, he gets aoO normaly. But if he first....moves one square to the right (and now has his opponent to his upper-left square), attacks and leaves, he then does not get attacked? Just seems unnatural to me
4. That means that if a highly dexterous fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes is facing a demon lord or something and an army of (allied to the demon /or even third party characters!!!) goblins are constantly trying to pass behind the fighter in order to go somewhere, then the fighter gets 5,10 (or whatever number) free attacks against the demon. At his higher bonus. It seems completely absurd, the demon should not care or be influenced by the passing goblins, especialy if they could be unrelated to him.

[Blue Jay]

He can circle his opponent but that provokes AoOs from that opponent before the attack. Once he attacks, he no longer provokes for moving through that opponent's threatened squares. You can't take a 5 foot step to accomplish this because you can't make 5 foot steps and move in the same round.

This is inaccurate. When you use Spring Attack, the movement before and after the attack counts as a single move action. So, in action-economy terms, you're not taking a 5-foot step, then taking an attack action, then taking a move action: you're beginning your move action, interrupting it with an attack action, then completing your move action afterwards.

The idea is that you're making a quick, mobile attack, and it's your quick and agile movement that lets you avoid provoking an AoO from your target. That's why don't provoke AoO's from the point you "activate" the feat, not from the point you make your attack.

{EDIT to ADD:

Thank you for the answers. 2 and 4 still trouble me somewhat...
2. If for example player is face to face with an opponent (has his opponent in his "up-square" for example), attacks and retreats, he gets aoO normaly. But if he first....moves one square to the right (and now has his opponent to his upper-left square), attacks and leaves, he then does not get attacked? Just seems unnatural to me

Well, if the PC has Spring Attack, he wouldn't be using that first option; he'd be using the second option. So, the real difference is a character without Spring Attack provoking AoO's vs a character who has Spring Attack not provoking AoO's. Think of it as him making a quick, surprise attack: he's using some fancy footing and agility to get close, make his attack and retreat without exposing himself to danger.


4. That means that if a highly dexterous fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes is facing a demon lord or something and an army of (allied to the demon /or even third party characters!!!) goblins are constantly trying to pass behind the fighter in order to go somewhere, then the fighter gets 5,10 (or whatever number) free attacks against the demon. At his higher bonus. It seems completely absurd, the demon should not care or be influenced by the passing goblins, especialy if they could be unrelated to him.

I'm not sure what the "real world" logic behind the Cleave feats is, but I always imagined it was something like the fighter executed a devastating attack and, with a little pivot action, turned it into another attack. So, it's not like the demon lord is being influenced, but the fighter is turning his opportunities into more opportunities. If you want to make it seem more plausible, you could try playing with the fluff a little, e.g., say the goblins are constantly getting in the demon lord's way and messing with his defenses or something.

But, it's an abstract game mechanic, so there are bound to be situations in which it doesn't quite seem to conform to realistic expectations. Basically, it seems like this hypothetical fighter was built specifically to shine in exactly this specific scenario. But, I'm sure you can see that your scenario is a very specific and unusual scenario, and the mechanics failing in weird situations is not something to worry about. If it's getting out of hand, it shouldn't be too hard to find a way to mitigate the absurdity. For example, do the goblins absolutely have to be trying to get past the fighter? If so, can they not attempt Tumble checks to avoid provoking AoO's? Can the demon lord not take a 5-foot step to be out of Cleave reach?}

[SirNibbles]

Thank you for the answers. 2 and 4 still trouble me somewhat...
2. If for example player is face to face with an opponent (has his opponent in his "up-square" for example), attacks and retreats, he gets aoO normaly. But if he first....moves one square to the right (and now has his opponent to his upper-left square), attacks and leaves, he then does not get attacked? Just seems unnatural to me
4. That means that if a highly dexterous fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes is facing a demon lord or something and an army of (allied to the demon /or even third party characters!!!) goblins are constantly trying to pass behind the fighter in order to go somewhere, then the fighter gets 5,10 (or whatever number) free attacks against the demon. At his higher bonus. It seems completely absurd, the demon should not care or be influenced by the passing goblins, especialy if they could be unrelated to him.

2. It is unnatural, but that's just the way it goes.

4. Well, it's the Demon's fault for surrounding himself with Cleave-feeders.


This is inaccurate. When you use Spring Attack, the movement before and after the attack counts as a single move action. So, in action-economy terms, you're not taking a 5-foot step, then taking an attack action, then taking a move action: you're beginning your move action, interrupting it with an attack action, then completing your move action afterwards.

The idea is that you're making a quick, mobile attack, and it's your quick and agile movement that lets you avoid provoking an AoO from your target. That's why don't provoke AoO's from the point you "activate" the feat, not from the point you make your attack.

...currently editing post...

I understand that. I'm referring to the idea of taking an actual 5 foot step and then trying to move, which is against the rules of 5 foot steps. I understand the theory behind Spring Attack's mechanics.

[kaskavel]

4. Well, it's the Demon's fault for surrounding himself with Cleave-feeders.




Well...if the cleric is summoning celestial dogs and order them to pass behind the fighter, you would allow the fighter to hit the demon each time he dropped a dog? If the battle takes place in a farmhouse and the scared pigs are running away, would you allow the fighter to kill them and cleave the demon?
When the 13-lvl fighter is surrounded by a demon and goblins, he can attack the demon 3 times or he can just drop 3 goblins first if he likes, it makes no difference to the demon, he is not punished for bringing "cleave-feeders-he is not going to be punished for their presence. But this is something completely different.

[ngilop]

4. That means that if a highly dexterous fighter with great cleave and combat reflexes is facing a demon lord or something and an army of (allied to the demon /or even third party characters!!!) goblins are constantly trying to pass behind the fighter in order to go somewhere, then the fighter gets 5,10 (or whatever number) free attacks against the demon. At his higher bonus. It seems completely absurd, the demon should not care or be influenced by the passing goblins, especialy if they could be unrelated to him.

I feel that you do not quit understand what a cleave attack represents in game.

what it means is the fighter did such a tremendous blow to his opponent that the momentum of the attack allowed the fighter the carry his swing over to the next guy.

So what happens is a) the fighter and big bad demon are duking it out. b) goblin comes in an get wasted by power swing #1 c) power swing #1 is so super cool that it carries though and hit big bad demon as well. c) goblin cousin comes skipping along and POW get spliced by power swing #2, and then you just rinse and repeat.


I think you should be more concerned with the fact that why is there a bunch of 1 HD goblins running around in what should be a CR 18-ish fight? that more of the issue than the fighter doing something cool.

[kaskavel]

I feel that you do not quit understand what a cleave attack represents in game.

what it means is the fighter did such a tremendous blow to his opponent that the momentum of the attack allowed the fighter the carry his swing over to the next guy.

So what happens is a) the fighter and big bad demon are duking it out. b) goblin comes in an get wasted by power swing #1 c) power swing #1 is so super cool that it carries though and hit big bad demon as well. c) goblin cousin comes skipping along and POW get spliced by power swing #2, and then you just rinse and repeat.


I think you should be more concerned with the fact that why is there a bunch of 1 HD goblins running around in what should be a CR 18-ish fight? that more of the issue than the fighter doing something cool.

Check previous post. The creatures may be irrelevant or even summoned by the players

[Blue Jay]

I'm referring to the idea of taking an actual 5 foot step and then trying to move, which is against the rules of 5 foot steps. I understand the theory behind Spring Attack's mechanics.

Hmm.... I guess I was the one who used the term "5-foot step" up there when I shouldn't have, so that's my bad.


Well...if the cleric is summoning celestial dogs and order them to pass behind the fighter, you would allow the fighter to hit the demon each time he dropped a dog? If the battle takes place in a farmhouse and the scared pigs are running away, would you allow the fighter to kill them and cleave the demon?

(I edited my post above to add some stuff at the end, and you guys had posted several responses in the interim. Sorry.)

You know, I hear ya. The mechanic seems a little odd in some situations, but I think you're focusing too much on the negatives, and sort of fishing for a reason to hate it. Consider the two hypothetical examples in the quoted text above. For the first example, creatures don't provoke AoO's from their allies, so that won't work. In the second example, if you map it out, you'll see that this will usually only happen if the pigs are running towards the demon at some point; any other situation would probably have the pigs using a withdraw action, which won't provoke AoO's from the fighter in the first place.

I think you're putting too much emphasis on what is really only a problem in a very specific type of scenario. It's easy for a DM to prevent things from getting out of hand, even in the face of wonky mechanics; so this shouldn't be something that would ruin your gaming experience. I feel like this hypothetical Combat Reflexes/Cleave combo is a very narrow-niche build (and there are plenty of builds that are much more abusive and cheesy than this). If one of my players was optimizing for something like this, I would occasionally throw him a bone (i.e., a horde of low-level minions), just so he can have a chance to play the game he obviously wants to play. Just make sure you don't let all your encounters turn into Cleave-fests, because that would probably ruin everyone else's fun.

[KillianHawkeye]

If the way the Cleave feat works is that bothering to you, I suggest house-ruling in the Pathfinder version.