Ways to exceed max skill ranks = level

[the_archduke]

Is there anything in PF (feat or trait) that allows you to exceed the max skill ranks = level rule? I only need to exceed it by one.

[lagninja]

In Pathfinder, skill ranks are set to a maximum of your class level (or HD for creatures).

[the_archduke]

I am aware of the rule. Is there any way around it? I know there was a feat chain in 3.5, but I need a PF solution if there is one.

[legomaster00156]

No. There is no way around this rule.

[Forrestfire]

The bard's Inspire Greatness ability will add two bonus Hit Dice to someone affected by it. If you have a way to assign skill points during that effect, it could conceivably be used to break the normal cap. But that's deep cheese, so I doubt that's what you're looking for. This is the only way I know of to manage it, though.

[Mithril Leaf]

Come on guys, that's not very imaginative. Play a monster my friend (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/bestiary/monstersAsPCs.html). You get half of the CR as the level cost eventually. Appalie is a good choice at 2 CR (so quickly 1) with 4 HD, and Satyrs have 8 HD and 4 CR, so that gets down to 2.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wasn't there some trick that involved becoming a lycanthrope, then losing the extra hit dice?

[Coventry]

The bard's Inspire Greatness ability will add two bonus Hit Dice to someone affected by it. If you have a way to assign skill points during that effect, it could conceivably be used to break the normal cap. But that's deep cheese, so I doubt that's what you're looking for. This is the only way I know of to manage it, though.

Hmmm. So it is possible, but the character would have to be wearing a headband of vast intellect granting the specific skill for at least 24 hours preceding the time that the Bard's Inspire Greatness effect is applied. When the Hit dice are added, the points would appear, which the Hit dice vanish, so would the skill points.

(There is an equivalent skill point effect from an Ioun Stone - the Scarlet and Blue Sphere - which references the headband rules).

[dude123nice]

Hmmm. So it is possible, but the character would have to be wearing a headband of vast intellect granting the specific skill for at least 24 hours preceding the time that the Bard's Inspire Greatness effect is applied. When the Hit dice are added, the points would appear, which the Hit dice vanish, so would the skill points.

(There is an equivalent skill point effect from an Ioun Stone - the Scarlet and Blue Sphere - which references the headband rules).

I really don't understand why people would want to use such cheesy methods that are clearly not RAI and very questionable by RAW standards.

[Eldariel]

You can always just Polymorph Any Object into a tree, then get yourself Awakened and repeat for some bonus HD and Charisma.

[Florian]

Is there anything in PF (feat or trait) that allows you to exceed the max skill ranks = level rule? I only need to exceed it by one.

Basically: No. The only way around it that smells not all too much like limburger is using the "monsters as PC" rules and especially going for a monster race with lower CR than HD, as CR is converted to be your level, while at the same time, HD gives your skill max rank cap. Still cheesy, but maybe on a Brie level.

[noob]

You can probably take the 3.5 feat that allows to have a higher maximum on a skill rank since pathfinder allows the use of 3.5 material.

[legomaster00156]

You can probably take the 3.5 feat that allows to have a higher maximum on a skill rank since pathfinder allows the use of 3.5 material.
That is very dependent on the table. Pathfinder is generally compatible with 3.5, but this does not mean every Pathfinder table also allows 3.5 material.

[Bakkan]

I really don't understand why people would want to use such cheesy methods that are clearly not RAI and very questionable by RAW standards.

Because many GMs (like me) care nothing about RAI and sometimes run games that allow RAW shenanigans. More importantly, it's fun simply to explore the possibilities that exist within a complex system like D&D or Pathfinder.

[Coventry]

I really don't understand why people would want to use such cheesy methods that are clearly not RAI and very questionable by RAW standards.

You would have to ask the_archduke why he would want to do that, not me. I simply read RAW:

Headband of Vast Intelligence: After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer’s total Hit Dice, and
Inspire Greatness: A creature inspired with greatness gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s)

Wear the headband for at least 24 hours, then have the bard perform.

As far as how cheesy this is ... a difference of one skill point from 9 to 10 could be very significant (as the various feats that add bonuses trigger extra bonuses on that edge), but a difference from 10 to 11 seems pretty minor to me.

As a temporary increase that does not last 24 hours, the extra skill point would not qualify for early entry into a prestige class, which is the only other place I can come up with where an extra skill point might be useful. The sheer expense associated with doing this is beyond the means of a standard low level character, while a high level character will not need to use such techniques.

[Arael666]

You can probably take the 3.5 feat that allows to have a higher maximum on a skill rank since pathfinder allows the use of 3.5 material.

what feat is that? I have never heard of anything like that in 3.5

Edit: are you talking about the feat in cityscape?

[Jack_Simth]

Permanently?

OK. Warning: Takes 3rd party. Common 3rd party, but still.

1: Get a bard to use Inspire Greatness on you.
2: Get a Psion to manifest Bend Reality (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/b/bend-reality/) for Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-powers/p/psychic-reformation/)
3: Assign your skill points based on your current (Inspired) hit dice.
4: Permit the various effects to expire.

[Psyren]

Because many GMs (like me) care nothing about RAI and sometimes run games that allow RAW shenanigans. More importantly, it's fun simply to explore the possibilities that exist within a complex system like D&D or Pathfinder.

If you care nothing about intent then you can simply ignore the designers and rule zero/freeform it. That doesn't mean the game shouldn't have an intended power ceiling.

[Ellrin]

As a temporary increase that does not last 24 hours, the extra skill point would not qualify for early entry into a prestige class, which is the only other place I can come up with where an extra skill point might be useful. The sheer expense associated with doing this is beyond the means of a standard low level character, while a high level character will not need to use such techniques.

The other possibility would be for spells/abilities that allow you to temporarily change/gain feats but still restrict you to feats the prerequisites of which you meet (e.g. paragon surge). If there's a feat you want to use that requires a certain number of skill ranks, the Inspire Greatness/Headband of Intellect method might allow you to qualify early.

[Mithril Leaf]

If you care nothing about intent then you can simply ignore the designers and rule zero/freeform it. That doesn't mean the game shouldn't have an intended power ceiling.

If you care nothing about the Rules as they are Written, why even bother having rules in the first place? Just have the DM handle it in the intended way.

[Psyren]

If you care nothing about the Rules as they are Written, why even bother having rules in the first place? Just have the DM handle it in the intended way.

I care about (ye most holy) RAW right up to the point it stops making sense, then I no longer do. Thankfully that is not the case here.

[Bakkan]

If you care nothing about intent then you can simply ignore the designers and rule zero/freeform it. That doesn't mean the game shouldn't have an intended power ceiling.

On the contrary, playing freeform doesn't allow exploration or experimentation. Part of the value in a written system of rules is its objectivity. It's fun to find a way, entirely within the rules, to use overlapping energy transformation fields to create a quantum computer, even though the designers almost certainly didn't have that in mind.

I prefer to limit per level on a game by game basis, by setting limits on character level and available classes. I like the fact that in D&D I can play a game where day-to-day survival in the wilderness is a challenge, or a superpowered game where combats become Xanatos Speed Chees, or something in between.

[Psyren]

It's fun to find a way, entirely within the rules, to use overlapping energy transformation fields to create a quantum computer, even though the designers almost certainly didn't have that in mind.

Fun is subjective; I personally have no use for such an exercise, nor would I waste limited gaming time (both mine and others) at the table doing it. Even just on a message board, I would read something like that once, say "interesting I guess" then put it out of my mind forevermore.

One of the main draws of PF for me was that it drastically cut down on this kind of rules onanism.

[Bakkan]

Fun is subjective; I personally have no use for such an exercise, nor would I waste limited gaming time (both mine and others) at the table doing it. Even just on a message board, I would read something like that once, say "interesting I guess" then put it out of my mind forevermore.

Indeed, quite subjective, which is why I was trying to answer the question of why anyone would consider such cheese.


One of the main draws of PF for me was that it drastically cut down on this kind of rules onanism.

It's not necessary to be so rude when describing something another person find fun that you do not.

[Florian]

It's not necessary to be so rude

It most definitely is.

[noob]

It most definitely is.
So will you let me be extremely rude with you each time you say you like to do something?
Because you just said it was necessary to be rude against people who liked to do a particular thing and you never gave a reason to behave differently against people who liked to do something else.
Or maybe I just did not have enough ranks in spot sarcasm.
I am so sorry: it is not a class skill for me and it is wisdom based so I have a -5 to throws of that skill.

[Ellrin]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/13/bf/f2/13bff29344f92f2902efa529427b03ea.jpg

[Dr_Dinosaur]

If you care nothing about intent then you can simply ignore the designers and rule zero/freeform it. That doesn't mean the game shouldn't have an intended power ceiling.

I don't think a slightly higher skill bonus or early access to a mediocre PrC is going to break the ceiling in a game with Wizards

[dude123nice]

I care about (ye most holy) RAW right up to the point it stops making sense, then I no longer do. Thankfully that is not the case here.

Then why not just make a homebrew system from scratch that does whatever you want. Or ask your DM to modify a system in a way that seems reasonable and still does what you want. We've all had our complaints about one system or another and of course occasionally stumbling into a cool exploit can be fun sometimes, but why would someone encourage people to find exploits instead modifying the rules in logical ways? You just get a chaotic atmosphere where everyone is trying to one-up each other in finding the best exploit and you have to search a doze rule books just so that everyone can take 1 turn. You get arguments, rule-lawyers etc. It can seriously develop into a toxic atmosphere at that point. The whole idea of rule zero: you can modify the preexisting rules to have more fun, is supposed to avoid this, but people still seem to prefer the toxic option.

[Psyren]

why would someone encourage people to find exploits instead modifying the rules in logical ways? You just get a chaotic atmosphere where everyone is trying to one-up each other in finding the best exploit and you have to search a doze rule books just so that everyone can take 1 turn. You get arguments, rule-lawyers etc. It can seriously develop into a toxic atmosphere at that point. The whole idea of rule zero: you can modify the preexisting rules to have more fun, is supposed to avoid this, but people still seem to prefer the toxic option.

You're quoting at the wrong guy because this is actually my viewpoint.


I don't think a slightly higher skill bonus or early access to a mediocre PrC is going to break the ceiling in a game with Wizards

If such an exploit existed, what would stop wizards from using it? And there are definitely PrCs that are not mediocre.

[Mordaedil]

It's a pretty disturbing idea that people think breaking from RAW means embracing rule 0 instead of applying a bit of care in undertaking RAI.

I mean, if RAW was absolute then we'd need to have a discussion about Complete Divine and see page XX and the spells per day of the Shugenja.

[eldskald]

It's also quite funny how people think that breaking RAW means breaking game balance. As people have pointed out, embracing RAW without applying RAI also breaks game balance (supposing there was any in the first place). This is why finding balance between RAW and RAI is important.

[Ellrin]

I think it's pretty funny that people are trying to police each others' fun, myself.

"No, you can't do this in your own games, it's boring."

"No, YOU can't do that in your games, it makes no sense."

Does it really matter if some people like to do things one way in private games and some people prefer it a different way?

[the_archduke]

I am trying to qualify for Martial Training III in a P6 environment. Third level stances are sweet, and if I can get 7 ranks in Knowledge: Martial, I can pick them up with a feat chain.

Secondarily, if I can find a way to exceed the cap, I can fit two levels of awakened blade in P6.