(Character Creation) First Character in Years. What to Play?

[Nautilust]

Hello, i'm joining a group of 5 people that recently lost a few players. We're playing at 9th level. They have a rogue, cleric, sorceress, gunslinger and shaman. I'm having trouble deciding what to play. I have a few ideas, a Gish, a Druid (Focusing on Wildshape), a Transmuter/Rogue (Maybe not that combination if there is a PrC that gives sneak attack and similar skills to Rogue), or an Evoker.

Evoker would be easiest to play but i've played two Evokers, and i've played a few Druids so i'm not as interested in playing one. So that leaves the Gish and the Transmuter/Rogue.

If I play a Gish I don't want to be based off of STR, I want to focus on DEX and either INT or CHA depending on what works best. Maybe a Bard-Gish or Sorceror-Gish (I know both of those are CHA-based spellcasters.) My problem with Bard-Gish is i'd have to give up on having 9th level spells (I think?) Sorceror-Gish might be cool but most of the builds i've seen have been Sorcadins and I don't plan on being Lawful Good.

Then there's the Transmuter/Rogue. I want to be good at using Alter Self and other Polymorph spells to take on other forms. Disguise and Bluff are probably going to be good skills to focus on. I need a decent mount of sneak attack and access to 9th level spells when I reach 20th.

What I need help with, (sorry for taking so long to get to this) is building these two prospective character's. Race's that would be good, Suggested Classes and PrC's, Feats I should pick up, etc. I haven't played 3.5 since a couple years before Pathfinder came out.

[bahamut920]

So, considering the fact that one of the other PCs is a Gunslinger, am I correct in assuming that the campaign is Pathfinder, not 3.5? What level of optimization are we talking about here? Is the sorcerer shooting lasers and casting fireballs, or is she planar binding demons and animating the dead to smash the action economy in half? Is the cleric a healbot, or a walking death machine?

Pathfinder has a dedicated Gish-in-a-can class, the Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus). It's a 6-level caster like the bard, which seems to have put you off, but it's a much more competent fighter. Its spell list has more evocations and transmutations, and Spell Combat/Spellstrike allows it to function like a 3.5 Duskblade with a better spell list (and 6th-level spells). You can also spend a swift action to grant your weapon certain enhancements for 1 minute, which are customizeable every time you use the ability. There are plenty of archetypes for the class, which allow you to do everything from making it cast like a sorcerer to making you Gambit from the X-Men. Of course, the Sorc gish works just as well in Pathfinder, especially if Path of War (basically Pathfinder Tome of Battle, but it's 3rd-party) is allowed; dip Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord) and go Bladecaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/bladecaster) for martial maneuvers and spellcasting.

If you're playing 3.5, you can get 9th-level spell access on a bard gish by dipping Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) before you hit your gish class and advancing the Sublime Chord casting instead of the Bard casting with it. But, honestly, you might just be better off going with the Sorcerer gish if you're that devoted to getting your 9's. A Sorc gish will have more 9's known and more per day than a Sublime Chord gish. A sorcerer gish might choose to go Swiftblade (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) and become the closest thing in D&D to The Flash. Highlights include getting 3.0 haste, blur, and a 20% chance to ignore targeted spells when under the effects of a haste you've cast, flat movement speed bonuses, extraordinary hastes (can't be dispelled and works in an AMF), Cha to initiative, and eventually the ability to turn haste into time stop. You lose a lot of caster levels, though, so you might not want to take it all the way. Also, always go Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage) in a gish build; you get a bunch of useful things, like automatic Quickens and Extends on those abjuration spells you'll be using a lot.

[Nautilust]

From what I understand it is in fact a 3.5 game. I think they are using a homebrew class.

As far as to how the players are using their characters. I have no idea yet.

[Menzath]

Well, you could always go lurk or psionic rogue if you pick up a psi-crystal you might be able to do the shared pain(or whatever it was) trick to not die in melee early on.
And later levels get expanded knowledge for metamorphosi to take on those fun shapes.

[Nautilust]

I've been considering a psionic gish, a Sorcadin, a Bard/Sublime Chord combination and an Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster. However I haven't thought of going with a psionic rogue.

One of my wilder ideas for race is Doppleganger (pending GM approval), however I think that +4 Level Adjustment means I lose assess to 9th level spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I've been considering a psionic gish, a Sorcadin, a Bard/Sublime Chord combination and an Rogue/Wizard/Arcane Trickster. However I haven't thought of going with a psionic rogue.

One of my wilder ideas for race is Doppleganger (pending GM approval), however I think that +4 Level Adjustment means I lose assess to 9th level spells.
You probably don't want to have +4 LA, no. Not only will it bar you from 9th level spells, it'll also leave you drastically weaker than your partymates pretty much the whole time.

What level range are you guys playing at? What books are available?

[Nautilust]

As I thought. That's why I was on the border about going with that idea.

We're starting out at 4th level. Idk what level we'll be ending at. I think every non-third party book is available. I go to meet this group tomorrow and we'll iron everything out.

[Hellpyre]

Depending on what you wanted from Doppleganger, you might try the Changling from Eberron. It has a lot of the same use for infiltration, but in exchange for no detecting thoughts you don't get hit with any LA

[ericgrau]

I'm sure there are paladin variants that aren't lawful good if you want to do that. You could also do a plain old fighter 1 (or other martial class) / sorcerer / eldritch knight / abjurant champion or similar gish. You lose out on cha to saves but gain a caster level plus a feat or other class feature.

If you like alter self and polymorph then the outsider type gives you better options for what you can change yourself into. Core has Aasimar at LA +1, but I'm pretty sure there's a non-core LA 0 outsider somewhere. Lets you change into angels, xorns and so on.

Spell compendium has a lot of swift/immediate casting time spells that are great for gishes. Like swift fly and nerveskitter. They also have no spell failure chance in armor in case that matters, since there's no S in their components. Likewise feather fall is ok. Besides that get lots of hour/level stuff so you can keep your buffs up all day. Ideally 24 hours. Lastly load up on scrolls of every level 1 and eventually level 2 utility spell to give lots of great utility options. Get a handful of rnd/level to min/level buff scrolls for buffing rounds, like cat's grace, but don't count on having a buffing round. That's why you scroll them instead of preparing them. Or maybe prepare just 1 if you have a spare slot. Or if you're going outsider, you might open with alter self / polymorph round 1. Just make sure it's worth it, because losing round 1 when you don't have a buff round is extremely painful.

Battlefield control spells are great as always, but on a gish they are especially good because (1) they work well even at reduced spell level and (2) They break up large groups of opponents into smaller chunks so a round 1 BFC spell will make it easier for you to stab a smaller number of foes round 2+.

Good hour/level core buffs (search spell compendium for more, I don't remember):
1: mage armor
2: false life
3: greater magic weapon
5: overland flight, permanency (reduce person for dex builds, see invisibility, invisibility on an object)
Don't worry too much about permanency's xp cost, because you gain extra xp whenever you're a level behind and get it all back (remind your DM). Don't worry about dispel because (1) I get dispelled about once per 2 campaigns and (2) it eats a round to maybe or maybe not work. So even if your DM is picking on you making a powerful caster lose round 1 is well worth it even without the buff's benefits. Heck bait him on purpose.

Good core BFC (search spell compendium for more, I don't remember):
1: Sleep, color spray
2: Web
3: sleet storm, stinking cloud (many immune foes in some campaigns though)
4: solid fog, resilient sphere (note that reflex is the most common low save and few things are immune), wall of ice
5: wall of force, maybe wall of stone if you can't wall of force,

[Nautilust]

There's the Neraphim in the Planar Handbook. It's an Outsider and has +0 LA. There's also the Shadowswyft for +1 LA and Tiefling for +1 LA I like those as well. I'd go Shadowswyft over Tiefling, but they have Light Blindness and idk if there's a way to overcome that. I could sink one of my first level feats into it but that seems like a waste.
What kind of forms can I take with Alter Self and Polymorph that would be useful for combat as an outsider?
Thanks for the spell suggestions I will look into those.

[Elkad]

A-Game Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?445134-Weekly-Optimization-Showcase-quot-A-quot-Game-Paladin) (of Freedom if you don't want to be LG) seems to line up. Even if you have to leave out Mystic Fire Knight to avoid 2 different orders, it still works well.

Party is big enough that Bard buffs are leveraged (especially if you don't have to be a Bard to get them). Str based instead of your desired Dex, but other than that, pretty good fit.
Unless the party has a summoning thing going on, they probably need another frontliner.
You can take the social slot, or let someone else have it. (you are kinda short on skillpoints)

It does depend on the DM going with the liberal ruling in several cases, so you need to discuss it beforehand, but none of it is really crazy.

[Nautilust]

Thank you I'll keep that build in mind!

[Nautilust]

An interesting build that I found is Totemist 2/Wizard 3/Soulcaster 10/Abjurant Champion 5. It doesn't get +16 BAB but from my understanding still manages 4+ attacks with natural weapons. It's based off of STR and INT but it seems pretty cool.

[Eldariel]

Totemist is nice. Another fun option is the Jade Phoenix Mage from Tome of Battle. Basic Wizard 6/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 5 is also a strong, solid gish. Simple Wizard 6/Eldritch Knight 9/Abjurant Champ 5 works too.

If you want to tend towards Rogue/Wizard, Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10 is pretty darn good.

But you can't go wrong with Druid 20 - it's awesome, versatile, and can fit many molds. Tame bears, summon bears, turn into a bear and shoot lasers out of your eyes. Can do anything the party might need done.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Probably the maximum-simplicity gish is Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 20. Battle Sorcerer trades a spell slot and a spell known for a d8 HD, medium BAB, a martial weapon, and casting in light armor; Stalwart Sorcerer gives up another spell known for +2 hit points/level and a martial weapon proficiency and weapon focus... but because of the the way it applies the spell known penalty, it stacks with Battle Sorcerer but does not actually penalize you any further. You wind up being quite sturdy and solid at melee even before you cast any spells. Throw on Smiting Spell (PHB 2) for Duskblade-style channeling.

A Bard gish is a little more complicated, but can be scary. Something like Bard 6/(any full BAB) 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion +2/Eldritch Knight or Knight Phantom 6 (with the latter PrC levels progressing Sublime Chord casting) gets +17 BAB and 9th level spells. Throw in Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn) and you can use Cha to attack; a little Inspire Courage/Dragonfire Inspiration work gets you plenty of damage to throw around in melee, again, before you ever cast a spell.

[Wartex1]

It looks like your party is lacking a frontliner/rogue flank-buddy. In that case, I recommend either a Fighter2/BarbX or one of the Tome of Battle classes.

Though a tanky gish would also get the job done.

[Eldariel]

It looks like your party is lacking a frontliner/rogue flank-buddy. In that case, I recommend either a Fighter2/BarbX or one of the Tome of Battle classes.

Though a tanky gish would also get the job done.

I mean, there's already a Cleric so the frontline is more than taken well care of. But yeah, Druid or Gish would also excel at this.

[Wartex1]

I mean, there's already a Cleric so the frontline is more than taken well care of. But yeah, Druid or Gish would also excel at this.

#NotAllClerics

[Nautilust]

I like the idea of Jade Pheonix Mage aswell but the best build I found was Warblade 1/Wu Jen 5/Jade Pheonix Mage 10/Abjurent Champion 5. And I'd like to have more Stances and Maneuvers than just Warblade 1 and Jade Pheonix Mage 10 are going to provide.

[Menzath]

A jpm isn't bad, but I also like the idea of trying to build an arcane version of king of smack.
Maybe something like a totemist 3/wizard(transmuter) 3/soul caster 10/
Pick up arcane devotion:war.
Not sure what to do for those last levels. Maybe icanatrix to persist buffs?