How does "Not noticing" work?

[SangoProduction]

Mechanically speaking at least. For instance, in Pathfinder, if you were to take greater steal feat, the enemy doesn't notice something as having been stolen until they attempt to use it. The bard archetype is funnier, as you can replace their spell pouch with a banana, but who care. Same effect, basically.

So, aside from, "Wow, I can't use the action I thought I could," is there any effect? Do they effectively lose that action, or do they get to change it to something else they think they can do?

[Mordaedil]

I would say that it starts costing them a full-round action to eventually becoming a free action depending on how often this happens.

[NOhara24]

Mechanically speaking at least. For instance, in Pathfinder, if you were to take greater steal feat, the enemy doesn't notice something as having been stolen until they attempt to use it. The bard archetype is funnier, as you can replace their spell pouch with a banana, but who care. Same effect, basically.

So, aside from, "Wow, I can't use the action I thought I could," is there any effect? Do they effectively lose that action, or do they get to change it to something else they think they can do?

I would rule it that they get to change it to something else. For example, you steal away a fighter's sword and he doesn't notice.

He grasps for his sword, it isn't there. I don't see a reason to charge him an action for that because he's already had his stuff stolen and will have to improvise his turn. No need to kick him while he's down. Also, the ramifications of affecting the action economy are often greater than we can ever forecast.

[Feantar]

Mechanically speaking at least. For instance, in Pathfinder, if you were to take greater steal feat, the enemy doesn't notice something as having been stolen until they attempt to use it. The bard archetype is funnier, as you can replace their spell pouch with a banana, but who care. Same effect, basically.

So, aside from, "Wow, I can't use the action I thought I could," is there any effect? Do they effectively lose that action, or do they get to change it to something else they think they can do?

Mostly, you could increase the action cost by one step if it can be amended - free to swift, swift to standard, etc, due to time and attention wasted. If, for instance, a fighter has quick draw, goes for their absent sword, realizes it's not there and decides to draw their backup club instead, change the quick draw free action to a swift one.

Now, if an action hinges on supplying a missing item near it's conclusion - like, for example(d20 modern, but still would apply), producing a molotov cocktail from your [insert container type here], weighing it in your hand then reaching for the lighter to find you don't have one - you might get the whole action wasted.

RAW, however, doesn't seem to have anything to say on the matter.

[Psyren]

I would rule it that they get to change it to something else. For example, you steal away a fighter's sword and he doesn't notice.

He grasps for his sword, it isn't there. I don't see a reason to charge him an action for that because he's already had his stuff stolen and will have to improvise his turn. No need to kick him while he's down. Also, the ramifications of affecting the action economy are often greater than we can ever forecast.

Note that you can only steal the fighter's sword while it's sheathed - if he's holding it you need Disarm.

Otherwise I agree, they should have the opportunity to change their action. (Of course, there might be ramifications even then - for example, the Barbarian who charges into melee only to find that his axe is missing, will still end up standing in melee without it.)

[Zanos]

Note that you can only steal the fighter's sword while it's sheathed - if he's holding it you need Disarm.

Otherwise I agree, they should have the opportunity to change their action. (Of course, there might be ramifications even then - for example, the Barbarian who charges into melee only to find that his axe is missing, will still end up standing in melee without it.)
I think you'd draw your axe before charging. Unless you meant a more general charge rather than the mechanically specific one.

I agree with this line of thinking, though. "Getting ready to attack" isn't any kind of action, and you have to have your spell components ready before initiating a spell. That will still have consequences though, the fighter will need to spend the appropriate action to draw another weapon if he has one and such.

[Pleh]

Note that you can only steal the fighter's sword while it's sheathed - if he's holding it you need Disarm.

Otherwise I agree, they should have the opportunity to change their action. (Of course, there might be ramifications even then - for example, the Barbarian who charges into melee only to find that his axe is missing, will still end up standing in melee without it.)

Pretty sure drawing your weapon at the end of a charge just isn't a thing. You begin swinging slightly before you become adjacent to your target because the momentum of the movement is part of the attack.

Most charges begin by drawing the weapon, if it needs to be drawn. Maybe in a hurry, you might draw it in the first 5ft of your charge, but if you are still drawing in the last 5ft, you've already missed (or you used Iaijutsu).

[NOhara24]

Note that you can only steal the fighter's sword while it's sheathed - if he's holding it you need Disarm.


Why would you grasp for something you're already holding? :smallwink:

[Psyren]

I think you'd draw your axe before charging. Unless you meant a more general charge rather than the mechanically specific one.

No, I meant during the charge:


Movement During a Charge
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

Meaning you already started moving before you tried to draw, so it's too late to take back.


Why would you grasp for something you're already holding? :smallwink:

The rule for noticing a GS item is "attempt to use it." So I can see why they specified.

[Pleh]

No, I meant during the charge:



Meaning you already started moving before you tried to draw, so it's too late to take back.

I feel like this is a RAWful blunder. You may be technically right, but for me it feels like the kind of ruling you find in a video game that suddenly breaks the immersion.

"So part way through the charge, he realized he didn't have the weapon, but he didn't bother to stop charging or change tactics?"

It makes mechanical sense per the wording of the rules, but just about no roleplaying sense. They should be able to halt their movement when the GS is noticed or at least be allowed to switch to making an unarmed attack with their charge.

[ericgrau]

For charge you might draw the weapon during the charge to avoid the move action cost, meaning that if you don't have quick draw you probably finish drawing it after about 10'. In my opinion force the character move 10 feet and give the option to change the rest beyond that. Maybe they grab air after only 5 feet, but eh, momentum.

[Segev]

Without the clause about not noticing until they attempt to use the stolen item, it is arguable that, despite you successfully taking it, they could notice very quickly that it's missing.

We know that them beating your Sleight of Hand check with their Perception means they notice you taking it, even if you do successfully take it. "Stop, Thief!" and the like will presumably follow shortly.

If they fail to beat your Sleight of Hand check with their Perception check, however, they don't know you stole it. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that they will fail to notice it missing for any length of time. There aren't specific mechanics for it, but the DM can make something up or reasonably declare that they notice that their balance is off and that they're missing that spell component pouch or what-have-you.

Since they noticed, possibly in a non-critical situation, they can do something about it. Go get another spell pouch before going into the dungeon; refrain from ordering that expensive meal when their coin purse is missing, etc.

With "they don't notice until they try to use it," they won't notice until it actually is an active, immediate problem that they don't have it. The fighter who lost his short sword likely still notices it missing before he goes into a combat situation; this clause means he doesn't notice until he tries to draw it in response to that ogre's assault...and finds he's unarmed against said ogre.

[SangoProduction]

Without the clause about not noticing until they attempt to use the stolen item, it is arguable that, despite you successfully taking it, they could notice very quickly that it's missing.

We know that them beating your Sleight of Hand check with their Perception means they notice you taking it, even if you do successfully take it. "Stop, Thief!" and the like will presumably follow shortly.

If they fail to beat your Sleight of Hand check with their Perception check, however, they don't know you stole it. That doesn't mean, necessarily, that they will fail to notice it missing for any length of time. There aren't specific mechanics for it, but the DM can make something up or reasonably declare that they notice that their balance is off and that they're missing that spell component pouch or what-have-you.

Since they noticed, possibly in a non-critical situation, they can do something about it. Go get another spell pouch before going into the dungeon; refrain from ordering that expensive meal when their coin purse is missing, etc.

With "they don't notice until they try to use it," they won't notice until it actually is an active, immediate problem that they don't have it. The fighter who lost his short sword likely still notices it missing before he goes into a combat situation; this clause means he doesn't notice until he tries to draw it in response to that ogre's assault...and finds he's unarmed against said ogre.

OH now that's a good point. Guess that makes Graceful Steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/graceful-steal-combat/) even better. (And of course, still be a Filcher Rogue, because SoH > BaB.)

[Segev]

OH now that's a good point. Guess that makes Graceful Steal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/graceful-steal-combat/) even better. (And of course, still be a Filcher Rogue, because SoH > BaB.)

Yeah; it seems to me the primary purpose of the normal rules is to prevent the victim from linking you with the theft. Whether he notices now or later, he didn't see you do it. The purpose of the rules that extend this to not noticing until he goes to use it is to set him up in some way.

The first bit can let you make a clean getaway with an item he has that you want.

The second bit lets you ensure he does not have an item when he needs it. (Without that, he could reasonably notice sometime before he needs it, and get a replacement.)

[the_david]

Not related to the question, but this is really confusing to me:

"Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action."

I'm not entirely sure why I would take a surprise action if I don't notice a foe in the first place. What am I supposed to do, metagame? I suppose I should be aware after my fellow partymembers who did succeed on their perception checks pointed out the foe with their spells and arrows, but what happens if nobody succeeds on a perception check?

GM: The door opens into a long hallway with a lot of cobwebs. The wizard gets a surprise round.
Wizard: I walk down the hall.

[Psyren]

Not related to the question, but this is really confusing to me:

"Forewarned (Su): You can always act in the surprise round even if you fail to make a Perception roll to notice a foe, but you are still considered flat-footed until you take an action."

I'm not entirely sure why I would take a surprise action if I don't notice a foe in the first place. What am I supposed to do, metagame? I suppose I should be aware after my fellow partymembers who did succeed on their perception checks pointed out the foe with their spells and arrows, but what happens if nobody succeeds on a perception check?

GM: The door opens into a long hallway with a lot of cobwebs. The wizard gets a surprise round.
Wizard: I walk down the hall.

As a matter of fact, yes, you are supposed to metagame. That's the whole point of divinations :smalltongue:
That supernatural power is giving your character information that they wouldn't otherwise have.

How it works is that everyone rolls initiative at the start of combat (as normal) and then only the side that noticed the other gets to act in the surprise round (again, as normal.) But even if you're on the "failed to notice" side, the power lets you take action anyway.

If the ambushers (I assume spiders in your example) haven't revealed themselves yet, rather than walk down the hall, the diviner could probably take a more prudent action like casting a buff, firing an area spell down the hall, or even simply just readying an action since you are now in initiative.