Durkon will be rezzed by a clan delegate

[Fyraltari]

Since even the lowly acolytes of Thor's temple are aware of the meeting of the Council of Clan Elders, it cannot be a secret, and since the purpose of this meeting is debate "issues affecting all the clans" it stands to reason that the Clan Elder will bring along their advisors and/or make a show of strength/wealth by bringing their retinue. At least one of the Elders or their followers is bound to be a Cleric that can cast Resurrection and would be grateful to the Order for saving the world, no ?

[hamishspence]

They have to slay the vampire that is Durkon's body, first. Only then, will a Resurrection spell work on the corpse.

[Synesthesy]

They may have some Rezz scrolls, just in case. They seem to be some important people, after all.

[Peelee]

Since even the lowly acolytes of Thor's temple are aware of the meeting of the Council of Clan Elders, it cannot be a secret

Ok, that makes sense so far...


and since the purpose of this meeting is debate "issues affecting all the clans" it stands to reason that the Clan Elder will bring along their advisors and/or make a show of strength/wealth by bringing their retinue.

...aaaand you lost me. Why would that stand to reason? In a peaceful, honor-bound society, what is the point in making a show of strength or wealth, especially when a meeting is to be held with a demigod, who is their first king?

In fact, the vampire dwarves likely know how these councils go doesb - after all, you yourself pointed out how it's likeky that they don't keep these things secret - and appear unconcerned with any formidable opposition. Which means either there is none, or they have a plan to neutralize it.

[hroþila]

...aaaand you lost me. Why would that stand to reason? In a peaceful, honor-bound society, what is the point in making a show of strength or wealth, especially when a meeting is to be held with a demigod, who is their first king?
Is it actually a peaceful society, though? Jasdoif?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why would that stand to reason? In a peaceful, honor-bound society, what is the point in making a show of strength or wealth, especially when a meeting is to be held with a demigod, who is their first king?

They are politicians. It's unclear how important their position is (given that they aren't the actual dwarven government), but even if they are mostly ceremonial, I'm sure they have intestine rivalries that will make them put on a show of power whenever they get together, because that's how it usually goes. Can't have clan "they-once-stole-a-silver-mug-from-us" upstage us, can we? And that uppity clan "Founded-a-mere-three-generations-ago" can't look better off than us.

What I find a stretch is that said show of power must include high-ranking priests. Political power and religious power seem quite separate, what with the High Priests of a god seemingly capable of unilateral political decisions such as exile without recourse. Will the clan leaders show up in their best finery and with a bunch of sycophants in tow? Sure. But given that I suspect they are more the equivalent of kings in modern constitutional monarchies than actual presidents of the same, I'd be surprised if they are attended by anything particularly powerful.

A further reason, a bit meta, is that the OotS isn't going to be upstaged by anything in the leaders' entourage. A Priest capable of casting resurrection would be quite a force for the vampires to contend.

(Also, happy tidings on this day of your birth)

Grey Wolf

[Fyraltari]

They have to slay the vampire that is Durkon's body, first. Only then, will a Resurrection spell work on the corpse.

A further reason, a bit meta, is that the OotS isn't going to be upstaged by anything in the leaders' entourage. A Priest capable of casting resurrection would be quite a force for the vampires to contend.

My thinking was :
1) The Vamps starts enacting their nefarious plan/fight with the Order.
2) The Order defeats the foul creatures of the night in a ultimate showdown of bravery, wit and character development.
3) Upon being saved, being explained the stakes and being told Durkon's story the hypothetical priest rezzes Durkon out of gratitude for saving himself and his people from Hel.


In fact, the vampire dwarves likely know how these councils go doesb - after all, you yourself pointed out how it's likeky that they don't keep these things secret - and appear unconcerned with any formidable opposition. Which means either there is none, or they have a plan to neutralize it.

Vampires are stereotypically creatures of stealth. While I am not a D&D player, this strip gives me the impression that it is also the case within the game. Besides their plan hinges on the Elders being both alive and the Coucil meeting going on (most likely without Dvalin noticing anything amiss).They probably plan more on bypassing the council security than neutralizing it.

Also happy birthday to you !


They are politicians. It's unclear how important their position is (given that they aren't the actual dwarven government), but even if they are mostly ceremonial, I'm sure they have intestine rivalries that will make them put on a show of power whenever they get together, because that's how it usually goes. Can't have clan "they-once-stole-a-silver-mug-from-us" upstage us, can we? And that uppity clan "Founded-a-mere-three-generations-ago" can't look better off than us.

I love it when someone explains my point better than me, thanks. :smallsmile:



What I find a stretch is that said show of power must include high-ranking priests. Political power and religious power seem quite separate, what with the High Priests of a god seemingly capable of unilateral political decisions such as exile without recourse. Will the clan leaders show up in their best finery and with a bunch of sycophants in tow? Sure. But given that I suspect they are more the equivalent of kings in modern constitutional monarchies than actual presidents of the same, I'd be surprised if they are attended by anything particularly powerful.


A Clan Elder could have double duty as a Cleric, a bodyguard could be a former adventurer, they could need someone to cast Summon Proxy, ...

Hurak did not exile Durkon, he sent him on a "mission" while the practical difference is nil, that sounds like straight up loophole abuse to avoid his decision being countermanded to me. We don't even know what he told everybody else about the whole deal.

[Rogar Demonblud]

And that uppity clan "Founded-a-mere-three-generations-ago" can't look better off than us.

That one at least is not an issue. These are the old clans that used to be in charge back when Dvalin was still king. So this is more House of Lords than anything Americans have experience with, and there are probably rules to exclude entourages. Just like the Godsmoot.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That one at least is not an issue. These are the old clans that used to be in charge back when Dvalin was still king.

Clan lines can and do go extinct on the main line, and side families take their place, while still being considered newcomers. Just because the third cousin twice removed can trace their ascendants back to the main line through marriage to a daughter and therefore have a perfectly legitimate reason to inherit the clan title doesn't mean the established families think they are as worthy as the main line they replaced.

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

I suspect that when they have Durkon's body or Durkon's ashes, rather than Durkon* the vampire fighting them, the actual resurrection will take very few strips.

I could be wrong; Rich is provably able to leave a protagonist as an inert corpse for in-comic months. But I'll be surprised if he does that this time.

[dmc91356]

Quick side question here. There seems to be a large majority of forumites who are convinced that Durkon will actually and for certain be resurrected and part of the party again. Was there any sort of Word of Giant in that direction or is this just everyone's wishes manifesting as certainty?

For some reason, I had been operating under the assumption that the remaining time in the comic will not have a live Durkon, but that we will continue to see him from time to time having his conversations with the spirit inhabiting his former body.

[Jasdoif]

Is it actually a peaceful society, though? Jasdoif?What would constitute "actually a peaceful society"?

Given that our only glimpse of dwarven society is the life of one disabled veteran and her young son, I think it's a bit of an leap to assume that there are no wars. Or at least, no violent conflicts: Sigdi's husband and a lot of innocent miners died in a troll attack, after all, with no war required. Monsters are everywhere, especially in underground tunnels.

While the line about picking a fight with a tree was intended for comedy, the point still remains that if you know for certain you will only get a good afterlife if you die with honor, you are far more likely to deliberately go seek out an enemy to fight—whether it's orcs, giants, drow, duergar, etc.—as soon as you know you're sick or getting old. I imagine honor duels are probably a very common way of settling the score between two feuding dwarves: If I win, then I win, but if I lose, I still get an honorable death. And again, if you're sick, why not provoke a duel you know you will lose?

And the line between "military" and "civilian" is more a matter of how much time you spend fighting than a hard line that is never crossed. All dwarves learn to fight, possibly because of these facts.



Quick side question here. There seems to be a large majority of forumites who are convinced that Durkon will actually and for certain be resurrected and part of the party again. Was there any sort of Word of Giant in that direction or is this just everyone's wishes manifesting as certainty?I don't recall the Giant ever divulging details about the comic in advance. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I suspect the next-to-last book being a poor place to irrevocably alter the team dynamic is a factor in the certainty, though.

[Kish]

Quick side question here. There seems to be a large majority of forumites who are convinced that Durkon will actually and for certain be resurrected and part of the party again. Was there any sort of Word of Giant in that direction or is this just everyone's wishes manifesting as certainty?

For some reason, I had been operating under the assumption that the remaining time in the comic will not have a live Durkon, but that we will continue to see him from time to time having his conversations with the spirit inhabiting his former body.
Rich has not said anything. I doubt very much that Greg will still be around when the Order next confronts Xykon and/or Redcloak.

[hroþila]

What would constitute "actually a peaceful society"?




I don't recall the Giant ever divulging details about the comic in advance. Quite the opposite, in fact.

I suspect the next-to-last book being a poor place to irrevocably alter the team dynamic is a factor in the certainty, though.
Ah, those quotes were a bit different than I remembered (they are indeed the ones I had in mind). I would have sworn the Giant had mentioned inter-dwarven military conflicts, but apparently I was mistaken. Thanks for digging them up, though!

[Ruck]

Quick side question here. There seems to be a large majority of forumites who are convinced that Durkon will actually and for certain be resurrected and part of the party again. Was there any sort of Word of Giant in that direction or is this just everyone's wishes manifesting as certainty?

For some reason, I had been operating under the assumption that the remaining time in the comic will not have a live Durkon, but that we will continue to see him from time to time having his conversations with the spirit inhabiting his former body.

No, there has been no definite word about this. But since this is the story of The Order of the Stick, and the developments of each individual as they come together as a functioning team that saves the world, it seems like it would be contrary to the aims of the broader story to leave one of those characters dead for the duration.

[dps]

I suspect the next-to-last book being a poor place to irrevocably alter the team dynamic is a factor in the certainty, though.

Yeah, which is also why I expect Belkar to be around until the final confrontation with Xykon as well.

Now, how, exactly, Durkon is still on the team at that point is a different story. I see at least 5 ways:

1) The Order manages to stop Hel's plan without destroying the vampire, and the HPoH joins back up with them because, with her plan foiled, it's not in Hel's interest for The Dark One's plan to work either. Frankly, I don't think this will happen, firstly because it would be a very unsatisfying way to do it from a story-telling POV--after all, it still wouldn't actually be Durkon--and secondly because how would the Order ever trust the HPoH, now that they know his real nature?

2) Durkon finds a way to regain control of his body from the HPoH. This might be the most emotionally satisfying resolution from the fandom's POV, but unless I've missed or misunderstood something, it would see to violate the in-universe rules of how vampires work, so I don't see it happening, either.

3) The vampire gets dusted, and Durkon rejoins the team as a ghost. OK, I don't even know what this option would mean story-wise, or how it would work mechanically--I'm not up on 3.5 rules for ghosts, not that The Giant follows them that much anymore anyway.

4) The vampire gets dusted, and Durkon gets rezzed. Seemingly the most likely way for Durkon to rejoin the team, but the Giant has said that he doesn't like the fact that there is a Resurrection spell, so I don't really see him using it.

5) The Giant comes up with some clever way to bring back Durkon that no one forsaw. The most likely outcome, IMO.

[Jasdoif]

4) The vampire gets dusted, and Durkon gets rezzed. Seemingly the most likely way for Durkon to rejoin the team, but the Giant has said that he doesn't like the fact that there is a Resurrection spell, so I don't really see him using it.Are you sure? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html)

My baseless guess for how could twist-ily go is that HPoH takes off to destroy the last Gate while the other vampires are busy dealing with the Council or Order; and finally tracking down HPoH and resurrecting Durkon happens in the next book.

[goodpeople25]

I'll pass on the show of force thing just standing to reason, and instead focus on the resurrection thing. I wouldn't count all that much on any hypothetical retinue containing a cleric and then you need one capable of resurrections. (The same spell level as Regenerate which is kinda involved in this part of the story)

Also you can still have something not be a total secret while still having secrecy related concerns or a preference to err on the discreet side.

[dps]

Are you sure? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0665.html)




D'oh. I am an idiot.

[Jasdoif]

D'oh.You may have been thinking of true resurrection.


And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as "not available" to everyone, and I don't want to waste any panel time explaining why.

Is there any particular part of the D&D 3e rules that "gets in the way" of your story more consistently than others? I mean, it doesn't really get in the way because it's swept aside the moment it becomes inconvenient, but I hope the question makes sense.True Resurrection, without a doubt. It's literally impossible for a mortal character to ever be completely out of the story because of its existence. Actually, all forms of resurrection are kind of a pain in the ass, though the other versions have roadblocks you can throw in the path. But because True Resurrection exists, every character death is met with, "Well, they could still come back!" forever.

[Kish]

That's as pure an example of Telephone Game as I've ever seen; the word "True" got dropped from the name of the spell he said he hated.

(Ironically, "unnecessary when the regular Resurrection spell exists" is one of his criticisms of True Resurrection.)

[Chei]

That's as pure an example of Telephone Game as I've ever seen; the word "True" got dropped from the name of the spell he said he hated.

(Ironically, "unnecessary when the regular Resurrection spell exists" is one of his criticisms of True Resurrection.)

Yeah, it seems like, while the Giant is unhappy with all forms of revival, at least the two inferior ones have practical barriers that he can use to make sure the question doesn't get brought up - like Laurin turning Nale to lint. It's funny that Tarquin called it 'overkill', but it's the bare minimum the Giant must do to convince the readers that Nale really won't come back, because Resurrection really is powerful enough to obviate True Resurrection in 99% of cases.

I think, if the Resurrection thing happens, it'll be from a scroll cast by a cleric too low-level to affect the outcome of the battle. I kind of hope the Resurrection happens, because the alternatives - no Durkon at all, or a Durkon who somehow wrested control from the vampire - don't appeal to me.

[dmc91356]

Thanks to all for the various responses. I guess I am coming at this from a slightly different perspective. Having recently re-read the Black Company books (and having previously started Martin's insane saga and giving up after a couple of books because it appears he is NEVER going to finish), I am just used to relatively major characters not making it to the end of the story, which is what I have pigeon-holed Durkon's position to be. Let's see what happens.

[Kish]

Rich has explicitly disavowed wanting his writing to be anything like Gurm's books, just for the record.

Beyond that, "Durkon will not be resurrected" and "Greg will be in the story longer than the end of the current book" are not necessarily the same proposition, though I would bet against both of them.

[Peelee]

Political power and religious power seem quite separate, what with the High Priests of a god seemingly capable of unilateral political decisions such as exile without recourse.
I'm probably misreading this, but doesn't that mean that political power and religious power are intertwined?

My thinking was :
Vampires are stereotypically creatures of stealth. While I am not a D&D player, this strip gives me the impression that it is also the case within the game. Besides their plan hinges on the Elders being both alive and the Coucil meeting going on (most likely without Dvalin noticing anything amiss).They probably plan more on bypassing the council security than neutralizing it.
Ah, I gotcha. Though I would point out, they haven't exactly been paragons of stealth so far. Though, to their credit, they're not playing a bagpipe dirge with their lungs.

Also, thank you both for the birthday wishes!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm probably misreading this, but doesn't that mean that political power and religious power are intertwined?

Yes, in that the High Priest has both, but not in that the estate and the churches are under one hierarchy, which is what would make it normal for a powerful priest to be subservient to a clan leader. Sorry, I didn't phrase the concept all that well: I meant that there does not seem to be political authority over the priests (that could ask inconvenient questions such as "where is that nice Durkon boy?" that cannot be brushed aside as "church business").

GW

[Emanick]

Wouldn't surprise me in the least if a clan leader is accompanied by a cleric who winds up resurrecting Durkon. There are umpteen reasons why a leader might have one in his or her entourage, and there are umpteen reasons why he or she might not be involved in the battle - most obviously, s/he simply isn't on the battlefield. Even so, if the level 13+ cleric was to participate, it wouldn't be the first time that the Order had help from an NPC of a reasonable level in a major battle.

That said, I won't be surprised in the least if this doesn't end up happening, either, because there's no reason it needs to.

[Christopher K.]

Would it be be possible that Dvalin as a demigod could grant a cleric or representative/provide means for Resurrection? Considering a lot of emphasis had been placed on the folly of blindly following tradition (the bureaucratic handling of the cataclysmic events unfolding by the gods, Roy assuming HPoH was Durkon because 'hey we need a healer, and the high level cleric says he's on our side like he always has been,' Hel operating with her hands tied from a poorly constructed bet with Thor, hell, even Xykon and Redcloak assuming MitD's loyalty at Monster Hollow), perhaps Dvalin will acknowledge that passing the buck down the line on an important topic has proven unwise and that the Order would best be equipped to handle the Gate situation with Durkon Classic at their side.

(This may be a stretch, admittedly, but I feel like I'm almost onto something with this general theme)

[Ruck]

Am I the only one who thinks the actual resurrection of Durkon himself will be relatively anticlimactic? The fight between the Order and the vampire seems like the real climax of the book-- I don't think we're going to see a struggle to find someone to resurrect Durkon, and I think it'll happen by the end of the book. (I even think it's more likely than not it happens in Dwarven Lands, and we'll get to see some reunion strips.)

[Kish]

I wouldn't use the term "anticlimactic," but I do expect it to be quick and trivial, once Greg is destroyed.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Would it be be possible that Dvalin as a demigod could grant a cleric or representative/provide means for Resurrection? Considering a lot of emphasis had been placed on the folly of blindly following tradition (the bureaucratic handling of the cataclysmic events unfolding by the gods, Roy assuming HPoH was Durkon because 'hey we need a healer, and the high level cleric says he's on our side like he always has been,' Hel operating with her hands tied from a poorly constructed bet with Thor, hell, even Xykon and Redcloak assuming MitD's loyalty at Monster Hollow), perhaps Dvalin will acknowledge that passing the buck down the line on an important topic has proven unwise and that the Order would best be equipped to handle the Gate situation with Durkon Classic at their side.

(This may be a stretch, admittedly, but I feel like I'm almost onto something with this general theme)

Well, we know one cleric will be at the meeting: Dvalin's high priest. Hand him a scroll and we're off to the races.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Well, we know one cleric will be at the meeting: Dvalin's high priest. Hand him a scroll and we're off to the races.

Ummm... no, that is definitely the one guy that can't be at the meeting. He's stuck at the moot with every other High Priest. But yes, one would imagine that some form of Dvalin priest will have to be there for the proceedings.

GW

[SirKazum]

Well, we know one cleric will be at the meeting: Dvalin's high priest. Hand him a scroll and we're off to the races.

That's... one of the very few dwarf clerics we actually know for a fact will not be at the meeting, as he, along with all other Northern high priests, is at the Godsmoot.

edit: ninja'd by a grey wolf... or was that a Trip attack? :smalltongue:

[Fyraltari]

I wouldn't use the term "anticlimactic," but I do expect it to be quick and trivial, once Greg is destroyed.

Seconded, or should I say thirded ?

[Jasdoif]

Ummm... no, that is definitely the one guy that can't be at the meeting. He's stuck at the moot with every other High Priest. But yes, one would imagine that some form of Dvalin priest will have to be there for the proceedings.Hmm. I'm wondering if "assistant high priest" has a more well-defined title and role, since the existence of Godsmoots means the communication-less absence of the high priest would have be expected from time to time....

[Chei]

Hmm. I'm wondering if "assistant high priest" has a more well-defined title and role, since the existence of Godsmoots means the communication-less absence of the high priest would have be expected from time to time....

The old frost giant cleric they killed at the pass seemed to be Thrym's highest-level cleric aside from the high priest, but the other clerics just called him 'Elder'. That might suggest that the hierarchy below high priest is murky, or it might solely reflect on frost giant society and their relative dearth of clerics.

We've seen some signs of strict hierarchies among clerics. I'd imagine the more populous groups definitely have some kind of second-in-command.

[thereaper]

Is it possible that Haley will cast it with UMD?

[Peelee]

Is it possible that Haley will cast it with UMD?

Sure. It's also possible that everyone will come to my D&D game at Mount Erebus in Antarctica, and will bring enough pizza, soda, and chips and dip for all.

[Jasdoif]

Sure. It's also possible that everyone will come to my D&D game at Mount Erebus in Antarctica, and will bring enough pizza, soda, and chips and dip for all.Does that mean you're DMing?

[Ruck]

I wouldn't use the term "anticlimactic," but I do expect it to be quick and trivial, once Greg is destroyed.

Sure, that's probably more accurate. As I said, the real drama will be in the fight against the vampires, not the hunt to find someone who can resurrect Durkon.

[Peelee]

Does that mean you're DMing?

If The Giant can't make it, yes.

[thereaper]

Sure. It's also possible that everyone will come to my D&D game at Mount Erebus in Antarctica, and will bring enough pizza, soda, and chips and dip for all.

I meant, all she would need is a scroll of Raise Dead, which they could easily come across ("Thank you so much, great heroes! There's no one around right now who can cast 5th level spells, but I just happen to have this scroll...").

Upon looking at the rules, it seems possible that she might be able to cast it, but far from certain. Then again, those same rules indicate that she shouldn't be able to successfully cast from those wands as consistently as she is depicted.

[Peelee]

I meant, all she would need is a scroll of Raise Dead, which they could easily come across ("Thank you so much, great heroes! There's no one around right now who can cast 5th level spells, but I just happen to have this scroll...").

Upon looking at the rules, it seems possible that she might be able to cast it, but far from certain. Then again, those same rules indicate that she shouldn't be able to successfully cast from those wands as consistently as she is depicted.
Are you sure about that?

Raise Dead

You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level.

A creature who has been turned into an undead creature or killed by a death effect can’t be raised by this spell.

[thereaper]

Does that restriction apply if the vampire is dead?

Even if it does, if she can cast wands consistently, that implies some chance of being able to cast a resurrection scroll, unless Rich is ignoring the failure rate.

Doesn't really matter either way; just throwing the idea out there.

[The MunchKING]

3) The vampire gets dusted, and Durkon rejoins the team as a ghost. OK, I don't even know what this option would mean story-wise, or how it would work mechanically--I'm not up on 3.5 rules for ghosts, not that The Giant follows them that much anymore anyway.


They are angry, vengeful, and retaining all spell casting capability. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0163.html)

[thereaper]

I think there's a charisma requirement for that, and Durkon has a penalty.

[Kish]

The Charisma requirement is "minimum 6 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm)," not "no penalty." Or Vaarsuvius wouldn't be able to become one either.

[SlashDash]

You are assuming Haley doesn't have a feat or something to boost her odds.


Also, I'm betting on Durcula not having the last word. He'll lose the battle, obviously, but then he'll join team Evil.

[RatElemental]

Does that restriction apply if the vampire is dead?

Even if it does, if she can cast wands consistently, that implies some chance of being able to cast a resurrection scroll, unless Rich is ignoring the failure rate.

Doesn't really matter either way; just throwing the idea out there.

If a spell can restore a destroyed undead to their former life, it usually says so. At any rate, Raise Dead requires the body to be (mostly) intact, which a pile of dead vampire dust isn't.

[Peelee]

You are assuming Haley doesn't have a feat or something to boost her odds.

I'm also assuming Haley hasn't taken any levels in Cleric as well. I feel pretty safe in assuming things there has been no indication of whatsoever.

[Kish]

I feel pretty safe in assuming things there has been no indication of whatsoever.
That is an optimum strategy for fitting in on this forum.

[RatElemental]

That is an optimum strategy for fitting in on this forum.

On a saner forum... :smallbiggrin: