Gestalt 3.P Character help

[Hisoka]

I'm new to these boards but I used to frequent the CharOp boards on wotc website before they shut it down. I'm playing in a campaign soon which is using the pathfinder chassis and is allowing all 3.5 material with veto rites. As the title implies it is a gestalt campaign so I'm playing something that would otherwise suffer quite a bit if it wasn't and that is a Gish. The main rule is No broken cheese so persistomancy is out unfortunately but he's allowing swiftblade so it's no big deal.

The main casting side is Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 1/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 4

The non casting side is Paladin of Freedom 2/Fighter 2(for dodge and mobility)/ Duskblade 2/ Sorcerer 1/Duskblade 1/and then I have no clue what to do for the rest of the levels except Sorcerer levels when swiftblade would normally lose caster levels.

I'm not sure if I want to fill out the build with some sort of Matial Adept, some psionics, divine casting for more channeling options, or factotum for all the great factotum goodies.

Any ideas of how to flesh out the build would be welcome.

thoughts?

[zlefin]

standards of broken cheese vary so much that it's very hard to tell what's allowed just by that term :P

I always favor getting at least one ToB level in situations like that; I don't know if more would be worthwhile with your build, but one is always solid.

If you're getting high cha anyways a 1 level marshal dip is oftne nice.
you can always mine the X stat to Y bonus listings for other prospects.

[Rebel7284]

The standard gestalt swiftblade build I typically suggest is:

Martial Wizard 5/Swiftblade 1/Spelldancer 1/Swiftblade+9/ X4 //
Factotum 5/Wizard 1/Factotum +3/Wizard +1/Etc.

Martial Wizard gives bonus fighter feats, factotum gives more extra actions and amazing skills for more out of combat utility. Also, int to everything.

Now with persistomancy banned, Spelldancer may be less appealing. Still has uses for a free extend and occasional empower on a buff, but might be better to just skip it.

If you are committed to sorcerer casting, you can still do Factotum! Extra skills and extra actions are still very nice! Factotum casting also helps you pick up utility spells on the fly that you may not want to spend spells known on.
Alternatively, stack as many Charisma to X abilities as you can on the chassis. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?125732-3-x-X-stat-to-Y-bonus Paladin of Freedom + Battedancer + Marshal. Maybe a cloistered cleric dip for three feats

What are your DM's feeling about taking Racial Hit Dice or LA in gestalt? Gloura is 7HD +2LA fey with amazing stat bonuses. Charisma to AC and Saves, and casting as Bard 7.

[Axel_690]

What are the duskblade levels for? Have you considered replacing them with Magus instead?
I like using Binder, Warblade/Swordsage, and Meldshapers for filling out builds; especially in gestalt games.

[Hisoka]

All of these are solid options. I was feeling the martial dip at some point. Duskblade is for the arcane channeling class feature. The main difference between the Magus arcane strike and Duskblade arcane channeling is magus can only channel magus spells and Duskblade can channel any touch spell you know also, Magus is limited to a one-handed weapon whereas Duskblade can use a greatsword . Alternatively I could play an Arcanist with the archetype that grants arcane strike but idk if there's any way for me to get that with Cha casting. I'm somewhat set on Angelkin Aasimar I apologize for not specifying my race beforehand. Been a long time since I've posted a build. LA is applied to both sides and racial HD is applied to one side but we're starting al lvl 1.

[Jack_Simth]

For those suggesting mega-stacking: Pathfinder's the chassis, here, and Pathfinder's got a FAQ (which is also how they do errata...) that you can't stack X stat to Y thing twice. So while a 2 level dip into Arcane Duelist for Charisma to AC is nice... it won't stack with being incorporeal (which also gets Charisma to AC), so the next one's going to be monk for wisdom to AC (or something). Do mine the X stat to Y bonus thread, though.

[Hisoka]

I did not realize that and neither did my DM but I made him aware of it cause that makes sense. I believe he is still going to allow me to use the Oracle's ability to swap cha for dex for a few things and then still allow me to get cha from divine grace and battle dancer because he is treating the swap stat bonuses as different. I'll probably dip a level of cloistered cleric, marshal, and oracle for all the cha to y boosts and devotion/domain feats/benefits, then throw a couple levels of warblade/swordsage (can't decide) on at the tail end. I'm trying to get the DM to allow the 3.5 version of the arcane strike feat because the pathfinder one sucks in comparison.

[Axel_690]

I'm trying to get the DM to allow the 3.5 version of the arcane strike feat because the pathfinder one sucks in comparison.

Just show him that it requires trading your spells for that day for damage, either over several attacks or all at once.
Even if you dump them all it's not OP, cause you just lost all your spells for that day so you could kill one enemy.

Also; while the bonus damage dice do stack, the bonus to hit does not. The most you can get is +5 to hit if i recall the duskblade's spell progression correctly. There's a very good post somewhere here that explains this, but I don't know where it is or even how to go about finding it. Would someone be kind enough to link it please?

[Hisoka]

I get 9th level Sorcerer spells from this build so I could get a max of +9 to hit but I'd have to blow a 9th level spell to do it. I'd have to know that was my last battle before I do something crazy like that though.

[Axel_690]

I get 9th level Sorcerer spells from this build so I could get a max of +9 to hit but I'd have to blow a 9th level spell to do it. I'd have to know that was my last battle before I do something crazy like that though.

Exactly, you're sacrificing the versatility of your available spells for a bonus to hit and some extra damage. From an optimization standpoint, it's probably a bad trade actually; but who cares, it's really cool.:smallbiggrin:

[Hisoka]

Not too familiar on the differences from ToB to Path of War. Which would be better warblade or warlord? Swordsage or Stalker? Which initiator classes would you guys recommend to finish out the build? For now it looks like:

Sorcerer//Paladin of Freedom
Sorcerer//Paladin of Freedom (Cha to all saves)
Sorcerer//Fighter (Dodge)
Sorcerer//Fighter (Mobility)
Spellsword//Duskblade
Abjurant Champion//Duskblade
Swiftblade//Sorcerer (no loss in CL)
Swiftblade//Duskblade (Arcane Channeling)
Swiftblade//Battledancer (Cha to AC)
Swiftblade//Sorcerer
Swiftblade//Oracle (Cha instead of Dex to AC and Reflex saves)
Swiftblade//Marshal (Cha to damage while flanking)
Swiftblade//Sorcerer
Swiftblade//Cloistered Cleric (Travel Devotion, Planning Domain, War Domain)
Swiftblade//X
Swiftblade//Sorcerer
Abjurant Champion//X
Abjurant Champion//X
Abjurant Champion//X
Abjurant Champion//X

[Elricaltovilla]

Not too familiar on the differences from ToB to Path of War. Which would be better warblade or warlord? Swordsage or Stalker? Which initiator classes would you guys recommend to finish out the build? For now it looks like:

Sorcerer//Paladin of Freedom
Sorcerer//Paladin of Freedom (Cha to all saves)
Sorcerer//Fighter (Dodge)
Sorcerer//Fighter (Mobility)
Spellsword//Duskblade
Abjurant Champion//Duskblade
Swiftblade//Sorcerer (no loss in CL)
Swiftblade//Duskblade (Arcane Channeling)
Swiftblade//Battledancer (Cha to AC)
Swiftblade//Sorcerer
Swiftblade//Oracle (Cha instead of Dex to AC and Reflex saves)
Swiftblade//Marshal (Cha to damage while flanking)
Swiftblade//Sorcerer
Swiftblade//Cloistered Cleric (Travel Devotion, Planning Domain, War Domain)
Swiftblade//X
Swiftblade//Sorcerer
Abjurant Champion//X
Abjurant Champion//X
Abjurant Champion//X
Abjurant Champion//X

Well, I have some guides that I've been trying to keep up to date for all the PoW classes. Overall, they're probably a little stronger than the ToB classes. If you're looking for a CHA focus, then Warlord or Zealot is what you want to use, since they are the CHA based initiators from PoW and PoW:E respectively. Both are quite solid.

For your DM's sanity, I recommend avoiding Broken Blade and Primal Fury maneuvers for the most part. The strikes and boosts can get a little out of hand.

[Hisoka]

Is there pathfinder version of Time Stands Still maneuver in pathfinder?

[Elricaltovilla]

Is there pathfinder version of Time Stands Still maneuver in pathfinder?

Time Stands Still gives you two full attacks right? There isn't anything identical, but there are a number of maneuvers that are full attacks with bonus dice and extra effects thrown on top that rival or even potentially exceed the damage you'd get from two full attacks. For example:

Wrath of the Primal Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/primal-fury-maneuvers/#TOC-Wrath-of-the-Primal-Hunter) gives you a a pouncing charge that ignores DR and throws an extra 4d6 damage onto each hit.

Tempest Gale's Vicious Tempest Volley (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/tempest-gale-maneuvers/#TOC-Vicious-Tempest-Volley) is a ranged full attack with a bonus 2d6 per hit and a free combat maneuver tacked on to each shot. Combined with Rapid/Manyshot and Solar Wind's Solar Hailstorm Stance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/solar-wind-maneuvers/#TOC-Solar-Hailstorm-Stance) and you've got an additional 4 attacks on top of your base number of attacks with still more damage on top of that.

Thrashing Dragon's Thrashing Blades (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/thrashing-dragon-maneuvers/#TOC-Thrashing-Blades) maneuver is an 8th level maneuver that gives you a full attack with no iterative attack penalties for each hit with bonus damage all as a standard action.

There are plenty of others, but I think you get the gist. We didn't copy anything specific from ToB but the themes are there and the style is just as good (I think). I might be a bit biased though.

[Hisoka]

Thrashing Blades is a pretty sweet maneuver. Really funny with Flyby Attack lol. I do like the Warlord class a lot. Does Initiator Level work the same as it did in 3.5? +1/2 for non-initiator base classes and +1 for prestige classes or no? Of course in this Gestalt build I'd only have an IL of 13 by the first X level.

[Elricaltovilla]

Thrashing Blades is a pretty sweet maneuver. Really funny with Flyby Attack lol. I do like the Warlord class a lot. Does Initiator Level work the same as it did in 3.5? +1/2 for non-initiator base classes and +1 for prestige classes or no? Of course in this Gestalt build I'd only have an IL of 13 by the first X level.

It's 1/2 for non initiator levels period. Prestige classes only grant full initiator levels if they are also initiating prestige classes.

[bahamut920]

Riven Hourglass's 9 allows you to take a full attack as an immediate action. I think it's the closest you're likely to get to Time Stands Still. RH is probably also one of the caster-friendliest PoW disciplines; it's very boost and counter heavy IIRC, and you eventually get a stance that gives you 3.0 haste (extra standard action per turn). Most RH stances make you immune to slow, there's a level 1 counter you can use to act in surprise rounds (even if surprised), and there's an 8th-level counter which, aside from being a Doctor Who reference, gives you a heal when you go to negative HP. All of it adds up to a very caster-friendly discipline. Of course, if you're going Swiftblade, some of it is redundant with the class features of that class (and any DM who lets them stack, RAW or not, is inviting his doom upon himself). Mystic and Stalker get RH vanilla, IIRC, and you can use a trait from Path of War Expanded to swap out a discipline on another class (Warlord and Zealot mesh best with Sorcerer due to Cha focus), as well.

[Hisoka]

I got him to approve 3.5 Arcane Strike but he's going with Pathfinder's Power Attack and not allowing feat retraining so I guess I won't be touching that feat with a 10' pole lol. Such a bad re-write on power attack. Are there any good damage feats in pathfinder?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I got him to approve 3.5 Arcane Strike but he's going with Pathfinder's Power Attack and not allowing feat retraining so I guess I won't be touching that feat with a 10' pole lol. Such a bad re-write on power attack. Are there any good damage feats in pathfinder?For casters, yes.

Mundanes don't get good feats in PF.

[Hisoka]

For casters, yes.

Mundanes don't get good feats in PF.

Well this build is a full caster. I'm not as familiar with PF. Would you mind elaborating a little bit?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Well this build is a full caster. I'm not as familiar with PF. Would you mind elaborating a little bit?It's been a few months since last I checked, but while spellcasters gain scaling feats (such as Quicken Spell and Empower Spell), mundanes gain a bunch of piddly, tiny bonuses to niche actions under restricted circumstances. +2 to this or that roll which may only occur a handful of times per campaign, and even then only because you engineer the situation to your advantage, is pretty crap.

[Hisoka]

Ah I see what you mean. I do plan on taking the standard extend and quicken spell feats and such. Damn, I guess power attack is my best option even though it was needed to oblivion.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Ah I see what you mean. I do plan on taking the standard extend and quicken spell feats and such. Damn, I guess power attack is my best option even though it was needed to oblivion.Since you're playing 3.P, focus whatever martial feats you want on the good 3rd Edition feats that haven't been overwritten, such as Knockback, Knock-Down, Ancestral Relic, Faerie Mysteries Initiate, etc.