Unarmed bursty damage SS is this the right way to go about it?

[AngrySheep]

Hello everyone I'm a huge time lurker of the forums, usually diligent search gets me what I'm looking for, only this time I would like to check if I did my homework right :smallbiggrin:

Long story short, world is at war, my DM loves mind controlling casters and I have a full martial party consisting of
a Barbaric-ish Warblade
a control oriented Duelist SS
a bow ranger
myself

We are all starting at lvl 5 but we are going to lvl up fast, probly at least one level per session.
I usually always play a caster myself, but this time I'm really looking into playing with something from ToB.
I'm Trying to achieve some high-mobility high-burst to close-in on casters and wreck them before they wreck us.
For creatures/melee encounters I'm trying to fit in some control, ability damage or some general utility I can put to use.

So far so good I'm looking at a Human SS 5 taking mainly Shadow Hand maneuvers and abusing the Shadow Blade Finesse to allow myself to drop the Str need and make myself a tad less MAD.
I feel like I'm hitting a wall at trying to achieve
>High-mobility
>High-Burst
>Unarmed Attack

We are at a 15 points buy.

As far as material goes, I suppose I can slip anything from Complete [X] series but srsly doubt any Psyonic stuff would be allowed. :smallfrown:

So far I'm looking at a 22 dmg/round combo assuming I can surprise the enemy and get the bonus round from initiative afterwards.
Should be able to keep that pace for 4 rounds and then I pretty much go into cooldown.
What bothers me is that 7 points of damage from that average are coming from Assassins stance 2d6 sneak attacks, which won't be scaling out in the game since I'm not planning on taking any rougue lvls and I'm not sure maneuvers alone will make up for the damage.

I would also be okay at losing damage for becoming some skill monkey as long as I can still disrupt casters reliably.

any input is appreciated :smallsmile:

[ExLibrisMortis]

Does 15-point buy literally mean only 15 points, or are you using some alternate system? Because that's really very low, commoner-level low.

You're probably not going to get a lot of damage with low strength and low base attack. Certainly not at lower levels, where it takes effort to make dexterity work for you. Unarmed attacks are at a disadvantage at that level as well. Swordsages are pretty good at the mobility thing, but also not brilliant.

I'm the worst at source restrictions, so I'm going to suggest some things you might be able to talk past your DM.

Barbarian 1/swordsage X: get your Spirit Lion Totem, Whirling Frenzy, and the City Brawler variant barbarian (gets IUS, and TWF for unarmed only). Charge + full attack with three unarmed strikes. Complete Champion, Unearthed Arcana, and Dragon Magazine.
Swordsage 7/Telflammar Shadowlord 6/swordsage +X: Shadowpounce is awesome. Free full attack whenever you teleport close enough to a target. What do swordsages get? That's right, teleport maneuvers. Unapproachable East.
You can scale sneak attack damage with the Craven feat (adds your level to the total, regardless of dice). Champions of Ruin.
You can use Shape Soulmeld (planar ward) to get a permanent protection from evil effect against charms, compulsions etcetera. Crucially does not make you immune to fear (some DMs may rule the immunity to mind-affecting effects granted by mind blank et al. disables Craven, which requires that you are not immune to fear). Magic of Incarnum.

[AngrySheep]

I'm not entirely sure which is the "standard point buy" but we are using the one on d20pfsrd, can't post the link due to not enough posts on the forum, though that's pretty much the only thing we are taking from path finder

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not entirely sure which is the "standard point buy" but we are using the one on d20pfsrd, can't post the link due to not enough posts on the forum, though that's pretty much the only thing we are taking from path finder
Ah, right. Pathfinder starts all stats at 10, and allows decreases, 3.5 starts all stats at 8, and allows only increases. That means 15 pb isn't the problem.

[AngrySheep]

I just f-ing realised Finesse only applies to-hit bonus, not to damage I ALWAYS get that messed up, guess I'm gonna have to take a step back at this

[Sagetim]

Having built a sword sage who does unarmed striking as his main thing (without using the Unarmed Sword Sage alternate class feature thing), it can take a while to get Shadow Hand Technique (or whatever it's name is) online. Weapon Finesse has a +1 bab requirement, which pushes it into being a level 3 feat, which means, in 3.5, you'll need to hit 6 before you can take Shadow Hand Technique to apply dex to damage. Now, if you're mixing pathfinder and 3.5, you could get the second feat at level 5 and be online with your dexterity mod for to hit and damage.

Your first level feats should include Improved Unarmed Strike, so that you can take Superior Unarmed Strike at your earliest opportunity. Especially because there Will be times when you don't have maneuver to pump your damage up with to make up for your 1d4 or so base damage.

I would suggest your other 1st level feat as Adaptive Style, as far as I am aware, using it allows you to refresh your maneuvers readied in addition to swapping around what you have available. Even if you only have the same number of maneuvers readied, as far as I aware, you can swap some of your expended maneuvers into being readied again, to keep the Mountain Hammers flowing.

By the by, take Mountain Hammer. And any upgrades to it. Keep the old ones too, because even if the amount of damage bonus on them might not be amazing at higher levels, the ability to bypass DR and Hardness is always great.

Something else you can do with feats is weasel some of the Devoted Spirit Maneuvers onto your list, such as by taking Martial Study to get Foehammer (another maneuver for ignoring DR) or Crusader's Strike (for healing), then taking Martial Stance to get a devoted spirit stance. At that point, since Martial Study can only be taken 3 times total, you use Martial Stance to get enough maneuvers known in the discipline of choice to jump your way up to meet the minimum requirements to take higher level maneuvers you actually want from the discipline in question.

Also, if you want maneverability, you might want to get your hands on the Dance of the Spider stance. Unlimited duration Spiderclimb is great for getting around, especially sneaking. Just crawl along the ceiling, choose a nice target, and open combat by dropping down and murdering them from on high.

[AngrySheep]

@Sagetim

I would be using the variant thing, though I just realized that by the book I don't get the improved unarmed strike, would it be fair to assume it should ? It doesn't make much sense give the SS monk progression but make him pay AoO's without paying a feat or am I wrong ?

[Kayblis]

@Sagetim

I would be using the variant thing, though I just realized that by the book I don't get the improved unarmed strike, would it be fair to assume it should ? It doesn't make much sense give the SS monk progression but make him pay AoO's without paying a feat or am I wrong ?

Unarmed Swordsage gets IUS "as a monk", so it's common to assume you get the damage progression.
As Sagetim stated, the Mountain Hammer line is great if you're looking for burst damage. Also, there is a level 1 Tiger Claw maneuver called Sudden Leap, which lets you jump as a swift action. It's perfect to cover distances and still be able to full-attack, or to move->attack->move again, and you can have it as a Swordsage.

[Sagetim]

Well, Superior Unarmed Strike might still be handy, since it advances your unarmed strike by 4 levels. And if you take any prestige class levels that don't advance unarmed combat, then you can still wind up with maximum punching by level 20.

That said, Master of Nine is another prestige class that's potentially on the table. It requires 4 feats (of which, Improved Unarmed Strike and Adaptive Style are two) and the maneuvers you get from those levels can be from any discipline, so you can mix in Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White Raven maneuvers using those levels, though you'll still need to meet 'must know x maneuvers in this discipline to learn this' requirements.

As far as I am aware, the monk does not require improved unarmed strike to make unarmed attacks without an attack of opportunity. Thus, if the sword sage alternate class ability is a wording copy paste, or 'as monk' then you should be fine. That said, I don't know if it would count as having the feat for purposes of prerequisites. That would probably wrap back around to 'can monks take feats that require improved unarmed strike?'

[AngrySheep]

I had not noticed that master of nine had access to all disciplines, that is handy indeed specially since i should have high IL by the time I qualify. I'm certainly going for Superior Unarmed Strike, I was just wandering if maneuvers alone boost the damage by a competitive level when compared to full attacks with a bunch of hits and what's not. Though the table for Mo9 in readied maneuvers is wrong, is it not ? the text says I get a extra readied every turn and the sample character confirms that, but the table just shows 1 readied for every level

[Kayblis]

The Monk class gets a special IUS on level 1, like a bonus feat. Should function the same way.

Master of Nine is a cool PrC, but the steep prereqs usually force you to play a certain way(funnily enough, as the class itself is supposedly made to be a combatant with any combination of schools). It's more efficient to use dips for the feats, like Cleric 1 for blind-fight and imp init through domains.

I'd like to point out that every ToB PrC advances initiator level in general, so a Swordsage 4/Crusader 1/Shadow Sun Ninja 10 has initiator levels of SS 14 and Crus 13. With that in mind, you can pick a level of Warblade or Crusader and advance their levels too while leveling a PrC. There's a build somewhere that got all 9th level maneuvers through that.

Edit: all the usual monk buffs like Monk's Tattoo and Monk Belt should apply the same way the feat does. As a rule of thumb, using maneuvers is more efficient than full attacks until you can reliably hit at least 3 attacks with either a buffed damage stat or a buffed unarmed attack. This can go as low as 2 attacks if optimizing Power Attack in a mid-op way(up to x3 mod and Pounce), at which point your Boost maneuvers would be a better use of your slots. This is a completely subjective rule of thumb I've pulled from the deep regions of my ass, but it has proven itself useful in my games.

[Eldariel]

Let's see... Swordsage gets a huge breadth of maneuvers. You should definitely rely on those for most of your damage. Smart choice on Insightful Strike can do a number for your damage; pump your Wis and Dex, get Shadow Blade and Weapon Finesse and go to town. Yeah, maneuvers suffice. Flashing Sun with Insightful Strike is great for instance. As is any Pounce maneuver. One level in Barb can give you Pounce for Diamond Mind too. But yeah, Insightful Strike + Shadow Blade is a great way to deal damage combined with full attack maneuvers.

You pick up Shadow Blade on level 1 and Weapon Finesse on level 3. Sadly you need both and this is the only way to get them in time, but that's fine; this way you're completely Dex SAD and can focus on secondary Wis/Str/Con/Int (Str is still applied to damage in addition to Dex with Shadow Blade). This feat alignment forces you to pick a Shadow Hand stance on level 1, but Child of Shadow and Island of Blades are both perfectly workable so that's more than fine. Island of Blades is more important if you go for heavier Sneak Attack since it enables Sneak Attacking from unusual positions. You get to still pick up one non-Shadow Hand stance for utility, like Hunter's Sense from Tiger Claw (for tracking and fighting invisibles).

To answer your question, strike damage mostly doesn't match up to full attack + boost damage but it's still sufficient and you don't really need to invest too many resources in strikes to make them good. The strike leveling itself takes care of that and Shadow Hand is as good a choice as any in that regard if you focus on being able to catch enemies flat-footed. Diamond Mind has some of the best strikes in e.g. the Nightmare Blade line so I recommend at least dabbling in it. Also the mobility and save replacement maneuvers are amazing. Desert Wind does a lot of damage on multiattacking such as Flashing Sun + X Blade boost, but fire damage is the most commonly resisted type so it's a tad unreliable. I recommend taking some utility from Setting Sun (it's one of the best Counter schools and allows Dex-based "tripping" which is great BFC for fighting melee baddies and positioning them in a way that your team can finish them) and rest, feel free to focus on Shadow Hand. Great school, but more about stealth than damage. Most of the damage is only okay, but good for flat footed enemies.

[emeraldstreak]

Maybe look at this (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1138036) for inspiration.

[AngrySheep]

The Monk class gets a special IUS on level 1, like a bonus feat. Should function the same way.

Master of Nine is a cool PrC, but the steep prereqs usually force you to play a certain way(funnily enough, as the class itself is supposedly made to be a combatant with any combination of schools). It's more efficient to use dips for the feats, like Cleric 1 for blind-fight and imp init through domains.



What domain gives you that ? not any on the PHB I could find, also I'm playing a Lawfull Neutral character so there's also that, would you mind pointing me the domains or at least the sources for them ?
Also, since I'm taking Shadow Blade, Superior unarmed and Weapon Finesse, all of which are not part of the list, wouldn't 2 lvls of fighter be a better choice ? keeping even numbers to add the 1/2`s to 1 and netting 2 feats ?



As a rule of thumb, using maneuvers is more efficient than full attacks until you can reliably hit at least 3 attacks with either a buffed damage stat or a buffed unarmed attack. This can go as low as 2 attacks if optimizing Power Attack in a mid-op way(up to x3 mod and Pounce), at which point your Boost maneuvers would be a better use of your slots.

Thanks that puts me at ease, in my table we are far from munchkins and I don't expect actually ANY optimization from buddies or major opt from NPC's and villans from the DM, I'm just worried we are a full melee party and the DM will throw casters at, and those are more powerful out of the box than warrior generally are, so I'm really just trying to fit the bill at that.


One level in Barb can give you Pounce for Diamond Mind too.

Whats the synergy here ? Sry I'm not THAT familiar with ToB :smallbiggrin:
Diamond Mind maneuvers are mostly a standard action to execute so how would full attacks help me ?

Thank everyone for the inputs so far its been helpful already :amused:

[Eldariel]

Whats the synergy here ? Sry I'm not THAT familiar with ToB :smallbiggrin:
Diamond Mind maneuvers are mostly a standard action to execute so how would full attacks help me ?

Bounding Assault allows a charge from basically any position. Pounce makes that a full attack. Insightful Strike adds damage to each hit.

[Sagetim]

Sure, just want to add in that your bonus to hit is going to matter a lot when it comes to full attack vs maneuver. The single attack that most maneuvers give you is going to, by and large, be more accurate than the extra attacks given by iteratives that full attacks grant. Since your base attack bonus is not good (3/4th, not 1/1), using maneuvers makes up for the slower gain of iteratives and their lack of accuracy.

Two levels of fighter would give you +2 bab, 2 feats, 2 d10's of hp, a stronger fort save, and a pittance of skill points. It also advances your initiator level by 1. So, for example, if you were Sword Sage 3/Fighter 2, your next Sword Sage level would have initiator level 5 to pick maneuvers known and so on from. A few fighter dips is not a terrible plan, especially if you're going to take 5 levels of Master of Nine, as it will keep your Base Attack Bonus from degrading something terrible.

I've taken a 3/4th bab base class into two 3/4th bab prestige classes before. And the only reason it worked well was by having really ridiculous wisdom (zen archery, ranged attacking shenangians). Because of that character's terrible bab, I had to prep a backup strategy for combat: gaining psionic focus and using Greater Psionic Shot with a single attack to do decent damage with a good chance to hit. Maneuvers will do this a lot better, generally speaking.

This reminds me though, you might want to consider getting an Immovable Rod, or two. It can work wonders for mobility shenanigans. While you can't run up a wall and lock yourself into place then one hand shoot things with mind bullets, you can use it to cross gaps that Spiderclimb won't let you get across, or to set up mid air shenanigans as the need arises.

[AngrySheep]

Bounding Assault allows a charge from basically any position. Pounce makes that a full attack. Insightful Strike adds damage to each hit.

I might have to take a step back here, for what I understand I can't mix full attacks and maneuvers, they require a standard action and I can't take standard actions AND full attacks. But I'm not a rule wizard, from what you say, you imply I could do a full attack and have a single maneuver effect every attack in that round?




Sure, just want to add in that your bonus to hit is going to matter a lot when it comes to full attack vs maneuver. The single attack that most maneuvers give you is going to, by and large, be more accurate than the extra attacks given by iteratives that full attacks grant. Since your base attack bonus is not good (3/4th, not 1/1), using maneuvers makes up for the slower gain of iteratives and their lack of accuracy.

I'm more prone to dealing damage through manuevers than full attack actions, sure if I can get more than a maneuver per turn as per Eldariel is implying ( if I get him right anyway ) that's great but I fell like the BAB from SS is a no-go for trying to achieve high attacks per-turn. What bothers me in this is that I'll be mostly tied to Hand postures for Shadow Blade which brings me to Assassins Stance, which is far more useful with multiple attacks. But I guess with the plethora of maneuvers that keep targets surprised I can still put it to use, all other stances in Hand are fairly situational even if helpful, like pseudo flying or walking over water. If there only was something like Shadow Blade for Diamond....

[Eldariel]

I might have to take a step back here, for what I understand I can't mix full attacks and maneuvers, they require a standard action and I can't take standard actions AND full attacks. But I'm not a rule wizard, from what you say, you imply I could do a full attack and have a single maneuver effect every attack in that round?

There are maneuvers that are:
- Full-round actions: E.g. Flashing Sun [Desert Wind], Time Stands Still [Diamond Mind] or Bounding Assault [Diamond Mind]. They usually do things that would take a full-round action, such as full attacks or charges. Bounding Assault (and certain Desert Wind, Devoted Spirit, Tiger Claw, and White Raven maneuvers) is a charge with all that entails including the ability to use Pounce.
- Standard actions: Most single hit strikes.
- Move actions: Stuff like Order Forged from Chaos [White Raven], or Shadow Stride [Shadow Hand]
- Swift actions: Most boosts, stuff like Sudden Leap [Tiger Claw], Moment of Alacrity [Diamond Mind], or Quicksilver Motion [Diamond Mind]. Also switching stances.
- Immediate actions: Most counters.

You can generally use a swift and a full-round or move + standard action. Thus it depends entirely on which maneuvers you use - full attack maneuvers give you full attacks that you can slam a boost on. You can use an immediate action on other characters' turn, but they cost you your next turn's swift action.