Is this a fight we are ready for?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Hello,

We are a five pc level 5 group, Wizard, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter and Bard and our big bad guy just used a teleportation spell and Power Word Kill to kill our Cleric in the middle of the night.

We believe him to be a level 17 Sorcerer who uses a disguise spell to impersonate a city's resident Wizard. This is probably a 75% sure thing, the Wizard could just be under the Tiefling's control or just a jerk but I don't think so.

I have a chance through pc talk away from the DM to set up and ambush of sorts in the city's council chamber hopefully with an ally or two from the thieve's guild. My idea would be put bardic inspiration on our wizard, use Dispell Magic to remove the Disguise in the council chambers.

At that point I cast silence, our Ranger has a magic rope he took off a devil so maybe he can grapple and tie up this sorcerer and we go to town on him with whatever guards and thieves guild members we have present.

For magic items the Bard has an Oath bow (3d8 if I recall), the dead cleric has a great sword which does 3d8 type damage which we can give the fighter maybe. The Wizard has a ring of spell storing with 5 slots, the Rogue has a cursed sword which also gives 3d8 type of a bonus.

Do we stand a chance or do we need to go kill some invading demons and level up a few more times?

[djreynolds]

Hello,

We are a five pc level 5 group, Wizard, Ranger, Rogue, Fighter and Bard and our big bad guy just used a teleportation spell and Power Word Kill to kill our Cleric in the middle of the night.

We believe him to be a level 17 Sorcerer who uses a disguise spell to impersonate a city's resident Wizard. This is probably a 75% sure thing, the Wizard could just be under the Tiefling's control or just a jerk but I don't think so.

I have a chance through pc talk away from the DM to set up and ambush of sorts in the city's council chamber hopefully with an ally or two from the thieve's guild. My idea would be put bardic inspiration on our wizard, use Dispell Magic to remove the Disguise in the council chambers.

At that point I cast silence, our Ranger has a magic rope he took off a devil so maybe he can grapple and tie up this sorcerer and we go to town on him with whatever guards and thieves guild members we have present.

For magic items the Bard has an Oath bow (3d8 if I recall), the dead cleric has a great sword which does 3d8 type damage which we can give the fighter maybe. The Wizard has a ring of spell storing with 5 slots, the Rogue has a cursed sword which also gives 3d8 type of a bonus.

Do we stand a chance or do we need to go kill some invading demons and level up a few more times?

I'm sure the sorcerer can twin disintegrate a few times.

Retreat is always an option

Misty step is a great way to get out of ropes and grapples.

Wisdom says walk away.

[Jerrykhor]

PW:K on a lvl5 PC? Facing an enemy caster with 9th level spells? Your DM is trying to kill you. Grab him by the collar and threaten him with harsh words.

The last time my party (all level 6) messed with a 20th level sorcerer, a single Cone of Cold upcasted at 8th level wiped us out instantly. But that was our fault, DM already hinted many times that he was 'the best sorcerer in the world'.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Yeah, it seemed I could imagine an ambush to reveal him but at the cost of all our lives.

How many more levels are we gonna need?

[DeTess]

Honestly, at what level you can take him also depends on when your dm wants you to beat him. My party took out a level 20-ish wizard at level 7, but the dm wasn't opposed to us killing him, and had him mostly use spells to try and capture us at first (mass hold person and the like), rather than high hp damage spells. Then the monk stunned him and we wiped him out in a single round.

If your dm doesn't want you to kill him, I'd say you'll have to reach lvl 10-12 first. Btw, I assume the cleric he murdered had either brought this on himself or had left and something needed to happen to remove his character?

[the_brazenburn]

You cannot take him. Period. A single high-level sorcerer could use a powerful evocation (sunburst or meteor swarm, say) before any of you get a turn, and wipe you out with it. Your DM is trying to kill you.

[Strangways]

Your only, and very slim, chance is if you get the jump on him and incapacitate him during the surprise round, then pile on before he can react. As soon as he gets a turn, that cone of cold or firestorm (boosted with empowered metamagic) is going to obliterate your party (think "bug hitting windshield").

[Joe the Rat]

If you are right about this being an infiltrating sorcerer, Silence has about a 1 in 4 chance of working... Subtle Metamagic to teleport/dim door away. And we already know he can do the TP part.

A fail on the dispel means you just attacked the local wizard in court.

You need allies to back you up when you throw down. But you may still get creamed if the villain is vindictive.

Why the Cleric? There's some context (in game and out) needed here.

[Jaelommiss]

I have a chance through pc talk away from the DM to set up and ambush of sorts in the city's council chamber hopefully with an ally or two from the thieve's guild. My idea would be put bardic inspiration on our wizard, use Dispell Magic to remove the Disguise in the council chambers.

At that point I cast silence, our Ranger has a magic rope he took off a devil so maybe he can grapple and tie up this sorcerer

If you manage to succeed up to this point, this is where you stop. You have revealed who he is and disabled him in front of the city's governing body. It's illegal, but they would probably sweep it under the rug if you turn him over to their custody. If you instead murder him then and there you are sending a clear message to the established powers that you do not respect their authority and judgement. Governments often try to maintain a monopoly on force. Demonstrating that this is wrong in their headquarters is such a threat to their authority that they would have no choice but to respond overwhelmingly against your party. I suspect that they would use one of two probable methods. The first is to label you criminals and hunt you down like dogs. You know that the city hires at least one spellcaster with 9th level spells. Are you willing to gamble that they don't hire anyone else who is stronger than you? The other is to claim you were working for them to uncover the disguised wizard. To maintain the illusion you can expect that they will keep you on a very tight leash afterwards and make sure that you know that they could have just as easily come down on you like a freight train.

In any case, tread carefully and be careful with who you include in your plans. The thieves' guild could very well decide that working with their long term sorcerer ally (it's entirely possible that they helped him replace the wizard) is more advantageous than taking him out. Your actions could thrust you into a world of politics and subtlety and backstabbing. Who knows what favours the theives' guild might ask for such a risky endeavour?

Personally, I'd consider cutting my losses and leaving him alone. Yeah, he's a bully and it's hard to let that go, but as soon as you bring lethal force against him you can be certain that he will unload everything he's got at you. I'm sure you've heard that it's unwise to back an animal into a corner. Now give that animal reality bending powers and fireballs and mind control. Is it worth the risk? Living with a bruised ego is far better than being captured and fed to demons. If you do decide to move against him, consider taking time to find others he has wronged. No one gets to be that powerful without making enemies along the way. The enemy of my enemy makes a great deniable asset, and all that. Whatever you decide on, commit to it fully. If he gets away you can be sure that he won't be content to let you plot against him again.

[Unoriginal]

Can you just reveal what you know to the city council and let them take their precautions?

I mean, it costs them basically nothing to check if a powerful Wizard is mind-controlled/someone is impersonating him.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Honestly, at what level you can take him also depends on when your dm wants you to beat him. My party took out a level 20-ish wizard at level 7, but the dm wasn't opposed to us killing him, and had him mostly use spells to try and capture us at first (mass hold person and the like), rather than high hp damage spells. Then the monk stunned him and we wiped him out in a single round.

If your dm doesn't want you to kill him, I'd say you'll have to reach lvl 10-12 first. Btw, I assume the cleric he murdered had either brought this on himself or had left and something needed to happen to remove his character?

Good question.

In story the Sorcerer has been creating a clone of our Cleric for a few sessions. Now the Cleric is dead apparently the soul transfers and the Sorcerer can use the clone to open a portal to allow in more demons. The cleric is a descendant of the clerics who closed the gates to hell so to say.

Out of story the Cleric has a new job and may need to niss a session or two.

FWIW, my character and two others were there and the Sorcerer had the jump on us. If the DM wanted to kill my Bard he could have. Now he might really like his super strong villian or just may want to challenge us for the next two years with him.

Any chance of killing the Sorcerer with an event like a rock slide or ???

[Unoriginal]

Any chance of killing the Sorcerer with an event like a rock slide or ???

Well sure, but how are you going to make said sorcerer go to a place where there is a natural catastrophe and make him stays there?


If you have the means, hiring spellcasters who have access to Counterspell might help you quite a bit, but given your group's level...

[DeTess]

Any chance of killing the Sorcerer with an event like a rock slide or ???

Maybe, if your GM will let you get away with something like that, as there are a lot of ways a sorcerer could theoretically say 'no' to an action like that. Maybe you should ask your DM out-of-game whether you're intended to fight him, or find some other solution.

[GorogIrongut]

As has already been said, you have no chance in this fight.

The part that I'm focusing on, and I'm surprised that no one else has... Is that a level 17 Sorceror teleported in and PWK'ed a level 5 cleric... who was also a PC.

That's not only highly unlikely... Level 17 Sorceror's don't bother with peons, he would've sent lackeys. But barring some kind of stupid decisions on the part of the cleric, it's a **** move to just off a pc's character like that. DM's who just randomly power word kill off the characters of their players' end up not having any players left soon.

[BrainFreeze]

Well given what we know now, the Cleric player is going to miss a few games and this is most likely a way to increase the ire of the other players toward the Sorc. It also serves to remove the Cleric's player from the game on a plausible reason until they can return.

As far as what to do...step back and gather information for um...10 levels and then unload on this Sorc in righteous vengeance.

[lebefrei]

Wow... If I'm going to assassinate a player in their sleep they are going to have to fail a lot of rolls before that happens. I understand the player might be taking a break, but it's still a weird precedent to set in a game to just murder a PC with almost no way to avoid it. No, you don't have a chance on this fight in any sort of standard 5e tactics. Your DM clearly isn't looking for a straight brawl in pitting you against a possibly level 20 character. Has he not dropped clues as to what sort of solution he is looking for, like don't you have some sort of in with the local government that could bring you some, perhaps high level, aid? Did you do a quest for anyone that can help you, does anyone owe you a favor?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Wow... If I'm going to assassinate a player in their sleep they are going to have to fail a lot of rolls before that happens. I understand the player might be taking a break, but it's still a weird precedent to set in a game to just murder a PC with almost no way to avoid it. No, you don't have a chance on this fight in any sort of standard 5e tactics. Your DM clearly isn't looking for a straight brawl in pitting you against a possibly level 20 character. Has he not dropped clues as to what sort of solution he is looking for, like don't you have some sort of in with the local government that could bring you some, perhaps high level, aid? Did you do a quest for anyone that can help you, does anyone owe you a favor?

We cleared a bit of a dungeon for the local thieves guild / mafia called The Shadows so we may be able to get some help there. They needed our help though. I suspect their top fellows are 8th or so level types.

The head of the local militia / police seems honest but was either dense as a rock or in league with the Wizard when we presented evidence of their Wizard's demise.

Being a Lore bard and remembering stories of riots outside of National Conventions in the "good ol days", I have wondered what panic or chaos I could cause spreading rumors and antagonizing the common folk to weaken the city's defenses and give us access to the wizard or have the populace demand a test of him.

....! We do have a scrying orb which MAY be used to MAYBE give us a clue where the clone of the Cleric is I suppose.

The DM has a Dragonborn PC he abandoned a while back by putting him on with a militia defending a town from the demons a week or so march away. Gonna take some long distance convincing to get him to march on the city. He's level appropriate to be with our party though...

Really we should do a few dozen side quests and level up quite a bit first but these demons over running the countryside and smaller towns for the evil sorcerer have rather focused our campaign on this plotline.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

As has already been said, you have no chance in this fight.

The part that I'm focusing on, and I'm surprised that no one else has... Is that a level 17 Sorceror teleported in and PWK'ed a level 5 cleric... who was also a PC.

That's not only highly unlikely... Level 17 Sorceror's don't bother with peons, he would've sent lackeys. But barring some kind of stupid decisions on the part of the cleric, it's a **** move to just off a pc's character like that. DM's who just randomly power word kill off the characters of their players' end up not having any players left soon.

Funny you mention it. The Sorcerer did send lackeys last session. They snuck in the temple we were sleeping in. We killed them in a moment of glory.

Our darn party just likes to split up at night. The Rogue wants to be a Rogue and so on so we end up divided. I did have the Wizard with us but no one wanted to set watch or traps in our room "in a temple of Palor". Even if it would have done no good its still good practice.

This may teach em.

[Unoriginal]

Seriously, though, can't you just convince some members of the council to check the Wizard themselves?

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Maybe, we have 6 other council members. The one we started with was the friendliest to us. We're 0 of 1 in convincing them so our percentage can't get lower though lol.

Perhaps we can trade a side quest or two for helping us uncover the Wizard. Might even get us more levels.

Another good idea.