[3.5] How to build a character for a low-WBL campaign?

[theCerealKillr]

My DM is a bit stingy with monetary rewards. It's something I've brought up with him, but he seems fairly set in his ways. In our last campaign, we ended with about 3,800 gold - for a party of SEVEN - by level 4. [EDIT: To clarify, that's total wealth, not gold left over. We also had no chance to spend it but that's a separate gripe.] Throughout the game, our WBL (wealth by level) was far lower than it should have been, and because of that, our party was pretty weak.

We're starting a new campaign, beginning at level 2, and we will be starting with exactly 0 items. I'm expecting that WBL will be similar to what it was in the last game. So, what classes, class features, and feats would you recommend for a game like this? Should one or more of us take Vow of Poverty? Obviously we're looking at Craft skills and item crafting feats, but what else should we know going into a game like this?

[Grod_The_Giant]

You'll definitely want to skew towards higher-tier classes-- caster types will do fairly well, but for warriors and skillmonkeys you'll want to look at things like ToB, Magic of Incarnum, Binders and the like. And invest a little more effort than expected into optimizing your raw numbers, since you won't have the expected "big six" items.

Also worth looking into? Character-based healing abilities. You probably won't be able to invest into routing maintenance items like Wands of CLW.

Vow of Poverty is obviously wildly tempting, though it does shut you out from weapons and armor (and, arguably by RAW, doorknobs*, but that's another story) and will radically warp your roleplaying. I'd be careful about using it; one character taking it in an effectively-no-magic-item campaign will get a huge quantitative advantage over a similar character without it.




*You can't even "use" material possessions, after all...

[Cosi]

Starting with hard zero items means you are all required to play casters with Eschew Materials. I assume you mean no magic items or something, but if you don't just all play Sorcerers with launch bolt and kill everything by Eschew-ing gargantuan bolts (IIRC, the largest size under Eschew's cap).

VoP Druid would be pretty great. It's not quite as effect as a regular Druid, but it's still totally fine and effectively nets everyone else 1/3 more wealth.

Much as I dislike the class, someone should probably play an Artificer. It makes any gold you get worth twice as much and lets you trade in items at full value.

After that, just "good casters". A Sorcerer with Eschew Materials is still good, as is some kind of Easy Bake/Elf Generalist Wizard.

But yes, the optimal party here is "a big pile of casters" to an even higher degree than it is in actual play. The only reason non-casters keep up is because they can get the magic they need from items, and if they can't do that they will fall apart very quickly.

Make sure you have a plan for dealing with anything that's Incorporeal has DR/Magic. It may be worth getting the Sorcerer to invest in a damage spell like sorching ray if you're worried about ghosts or the like. Alternatively, get the Cleric to pump turning super hard. At minimum, magic weapon or greater magic weapon at higher levels, particularly with Chain Spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Much as I dislike the class, someone should probably play an Artificer. It makes any gold you get worth twice as much and lets you trade in items at full value.
(It should be noted that Artificers can be strong even without casting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?427628-Disregard-Money-Acquire-Buff-Spells-Artificers-without-the-Artifice), thanks to infusions like Spell-Storing Item)

[shaikujin]

Avoid VoP if you can. The problem with it is that you basically cannot own any equipment of consequence.

Without sufficient wealth for level appropriate gear, my opinion is that your party will need to make up for the difference by having more spellcasters.

Preferably have at least half the party play full casters. Druids with their animal companions would be a good choice to help survive the lower levels since you have 0 items. Cleric, Archivist, Wizard, Sorceror, Psion are good choices too, depending on how much of the loot are scrolls. Martial initiators are also good options to round out the party if you have players who do not wish to play spellcasters.

I'd recommend having the good aligned characters pick up the Ancestral Relic feat. Should hopefully allow you to have at least 1 decent item with properties of your choice. You can power it up by sacrificing bulky items which you normally won't loot (armor of defeated opponents, shirt, boots, tables, chairs, the adamantine door etc). Save your gold for purchasing other items.

A Kensai's signature weapon would work in a similar fashion.

The Item Familiar feat would also help.

Weapons of Legacy normally requires too much of a sacrifice, but might just be feasible in this case.

Look into joining one of those affiliations from DMG2/PHB2 which will allow you to loan out some equipment.

If Dragonlance is allowed, play as Kenders and look into abusing Kender Grab Bags (from Races of Ansalon). Blow your wealth on 3sp sacks, and hope you pull out something usable/valuable.

[Eldariel]

I'd pretty much echo Cosi; the more casters the better. Casters can cast Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment and Greater Magic Fang on your mundane non-masterwork equipment, your party Wizard can craft 'em themself with the Craft-skill easily enough thanks to Int-synergy (and take Collegiate Wizard for 4 spells per level-up which is more than enough even with 0 acquired on level-ups), and your warriors should be animal companions, tamed animals, summons (Conjure Ice Beast is great on this level, Summon Monster hits its stride on spell level III/character level 5, Summon Nature's Ally is good from spell level II/character level 3 up), Clerics and the like. This also ensures you have access to sufficient restorative and defensive magic - and plenty of battlefield control and utility. Wild Cohort (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) raises heavily in value for particularly early game too. Just walk around with a zoo to do your fighting and heal, shoot bows, and cast as necessary.

[Cosi]

Avoid VoP if you can. The problem with it is that you basically cannot own any equipment of consequence.

I generally agree, but for Druids specifically it's a fairly good deal. They don't need any particular gear, and (IIRC) it doesn't reduce the party's overall resources, so particularly in a situation like this it's a net win.


Weapons of Legacy normally requires too much of a sacrifice, but might just be feasible in this case.

Don't the rituals for those cost gold? That seems like it would still be a serious hang up in a situation like this.

[paddyfool]

Would I be right in thinking that manifesters should also work well on a low budget?

[Zakerst]

Psions (wilders and to a lesser extent psychic warriors as well) can do well, likewise warlocks aren't terrible either. I may be mixing systems in memory, but I believe there is a way to get your holy symbol as a tattoo on a cleric.
Alternately if you need to be a fighter type a warfoged with the appropriate body (first level feat, adamantine or mythril) will at least have decent armor, and can make for a fun gundam type.
If you ever get access to planar binding you can use that to spend whatever wealth you do manage to accumulate (as that was a separate problem).
If you can scrape together the gp becoming a dragon born gives you a decent breath weapon as a source of energy damage. Also if you can find it shape sand is ludicrously versatile for its weight and cost (it may be craftable as it is an alchemical item but I don't recall the DC).
Remember clubs, staffs, and slings (and rocks for ammo) are all free and easy to make/find.
Another important thing to consider is how to creatively use items and how to use the cheapest items at your disposal for the most effect. Spells with instantionus effects that leave behind useful things can be good to utilize with any down time you might get. (E.g. fire shruiken, explosive runes, water to acid, wall of stone, stone shape (rules for stone equipment are in arms and equipment guide if you're in a pinch))

[ExLibrisMortis]

Don't the rituals for those cost gold? That seems like it would still be a serious hang up in a situation like this.
They do, yeah. Legacy Champions get the rituals for free, but with that character level 10 requirement, I don't see anyone building for it at level 2.


I'd like to recommend the build in my signature (add monk 1 with Decisive Strike to get the combo online earlier). I'm assuming you'll be able to get a regular (or masterwork) guisarme at some point, but other than that, you shouldn't be too item-dependent.

[Fliggl]

Like others said, don't play a class which needs gear.
You want higher AC? play a monk, ninja etc
Extra damage? Ninja, rogue, scout

A favored soul gains (some minor) boni for your deities favored weapon and is a full caster and doesn't even need a holy symbol.

A warlock also is independent from gear. Just fly away and blast the enemies from 250 feet distance. And you can make your own items.

[Zakerst]

Bones, chitin and stone are all cheap and easy to find in most worlds (murder hoboing ftw) and can be made into equipment [arms and equipment guide].
Part of the challenge is going to be utilizing everything in the world and leveraging all of them to your advantage; ask for detailed descriptions of your surroundings.
Use the survival skill to predict the weather and circumvent the need for food and water.
Again shape sand can be anything you need in the moment. If everyone gets a jar it's amazing the things you can do together. And it's not even magic so no need to worry about it being dispelled.
Take prisoners or enemies alive when you can, if you're evil, and sacrifice them for boons and blessings (BoVD).
Getting a kotori fiend of possession can be fun for the bonuses they can provide and the resin weapons they can craft for you can be nasty compared to what you might normally find.

[Menzath]

So it looks like a party that could ignore or break wbl would be something like-
VoP druid
Unarmed sword sage
Crafting artificer
Warlock
Psionics/wizard/sorcerer
And if you went for a melee you would have to either take ancestral relic(weapon), kensei, or legacy champion.
I could also see a monk with decisive strike/lion totem barbarian/X being a pretty good unarmed Uber charger.

So the biggest problem would be heals. VoP is harder to get away with on a cleric, maybe a bard/sacred exorcist/radiant servant would make a nice behind the lines buff and heal type, especially with two metamagic reducers. Biggest problem is those bard spell slots. Maybe squeeze one level of sublime chord in at 11?

Also of note, druids get a wonderful spell called coral growth, and can be used to make weapons and armor.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Healing isn't hard-- Persist Mass Lesser Vigor and you're good. Things like a Dragon Shaman dip (or arguably Draconic Aura) and Touch of Healing can also stretch out spell slots pretty effectively, which is what's really needed.

It also doesn't sound like conventional or even masterwork gear is going to be too hard to get.

[Crake]

I generally agree, but for Druids specifically it's a fairly good deal. They don't need any particular gear, and (IIRC) it doesn't reduce the party's overall resources, so particularly in a situation like this it's a net win.

You recall wrongly. The vow specifically requires that you take your share and donate it, you can't just give the share to the rest of your party.

If your DM simply doesn't want to bother with magical items and loot, direct him to the automatic bonus progression in pathfinder unchained. Normally its supposed to represent half your WBL, removing the "standard" magic item array of "+X to stat", allowing the DM to include only interesting loot, rather than the boring "required" items, but there's a variant that's made for ultra-rare/no magic items, which simply treats you as 2 levels higher on the table of bonuses.


If you want to remove magic items entirely (or make them so exceedingly rare that there is no expectation of finding them), consider giving the characters bonuses from the following table as if they were 2 levels higher. The table extends to 22nd level to account for games without magic items.

The rules are available for free on the pathfinder d20pfsrd here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/automatic-bonus-progression/).

[shaikujin]

I generally agree, but for Druids specifically it's a fairly good deal. They don't need any particular gear, and (IIRC) it doesn't reduce the party's overall resources, so particularly in a situation like this it's a net win.


Druids would indeed be the least affected by VoP, but not being able to use any magic item at all ever, is a substantial disadvantage.
It unfortunately does reduce the party's resources as well. Under the voluntary poverty section, it says the rest of the party should not get a bigger share because the VoP character donates his share to the needy...





Don't the rituals for those cost gold? That seems like it would still be a serious hang up in a situation like this.

Yes, they do indeed cost gold. But the cost is lower than an equivalent item. Eg
~2k for least legacy (lvl 5-10. Using the Faithful Avenger from ToB as an example. At lvl 5 -10, it's effectively a +2 to +5 cold iron falchion, with +2 Con and at will detect good)

~12k for lesser legacy (lvl 11-16. At these levels, bonus goes up to between +2 to +7. With +4 Con. Gains 3/day lesser restoration and the Immortal Fortitude stance)

~40k for greater (lvl 17-20. At these levels, bonus goes up to between +3 to +9 holy. With +6 Con. Gains 1/day restoration, 1/day ignore damage)


A custom or mutable Legacy Weapon with an effective +16 bonus that ignores all DR from 1 type of creature, never flat-footed, and a bunch of SLAs/abilities found nowhere else would cost around 54k gp. The bad thing about it is that the GP savings and unique abilities comes at the cost of other sacrifices like HP, skills points, penalties to CL or saves etc.

[daremetoidareyo]

You should get all of the other players on board playing VOP themselves. Be a party of VOP druids/psions. The solidarity amongst the players would demonstrate to the DM that you don't need no stinking loot. Build an orphanage for wayward goblins and go after the richest people in the world and funnel the goods through the orphanage. Goblin orphans are some of the least cared for souls of the sentient races.

Train your goblins to be able to opt into your holy army, and take over whole countries and take their wealth to funnel through your orphanages. Got a shortage of orphans? Hire good aligned adventurers to clear out goblin warrens in exchange for favors. Then sweep in and take all of the goblin youngins and funnel them through your orphanages to turn them into your soldiers.


Half-orc soulknife 5/menacing brute 2 will allow you a daily allowance of 200gp of free stuff dependant on your search checks. Take the hidden talent soulknife ACF and take psionic minor creation. That's a lot of poisons and alchemical items you now have access to. You blade magically upgrades itself. The full BAB allows you to qualify for menacing brute.

As a manifester, you can take psicrystal affinity, and the psicrystals have all of your skill ranks. They can help with your search checks for resourceful buyer shenanigans. They can also use your craft skills to craft things. Travel with a small wagon or specialized backpack and have the psicrystal craft you stuff to sell. As a construct, they can craft around the clock. There are some low intensive crafting skill in races of stone, all you'll need is paper and ink.

Also, if you spend some ranks in profession, the crystal can get a job! So long as you're only adventuring within a mile of where the thing is working. Profession (Card Gambler) (races of destiny) is probably one of your best bets. Badump bump!

Psicrystals also get to choose their feats. Give them hidden talent (Vigor) and the imprint stone feats and make your psicrystal make your healing items for your crew. At level 6, have the psicrystal take psicrystal affinity itself. Then this new little buddy can help craft and gamble even more!

[theCerealKillr]

You should get all of the other players on board playing VOP themselves. Be a party of VOP druids/psions. The solidarity amongst the players would demonstrate to the DM that you don't need no stinking loot. Build an orphanage for wayward goblins and go after the richest people in the world and funnel the goods through the orphanage. Goblin orphans are some of the least cared for souls of the sentient races.

As much as I love this idea, I'd rather not derail the campaign - I just want to be able to survive it. I like the idea of having the entire party play VoP characters though, and I'll bring it up with my group.


You recall wrongly. The vow specifically requires that you take your share and donate it, you can't just give the share to the rest of your party.

That being said, there are a lot of options for what you can do with your share, and if you're creative I imagine a lot of them could benefit the party indirectly. Giving to the needy in a city will make you rather well-liked there, and you might have an easier time gathering information there. Donating to a temple so they can do charitable work will increase your standing with them, and they might offer services at a discount for your party in the future. It's a far cry from "your money disappears into the void, never to be seen again".


Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. The consensus seems to be a caster-heavy group, with an unarmed specialist or two for the front line, and maybe one or two VoP characters.

[icefractal]

Summoned creatures have mostly fixed stats, so the lower wealth and optimization the party is, the better they get. Also it's quite slot-efficient (important when you don't have scrolls, pearls of power, or magic headbands), and most of the things that boost it are feats, not items.

Druid is a great summoner, of course, but I'd also recommend Psion(Shaper). Psionic Minor Creation is very handy, and with scaling Inertial Armor + Elan + Improved Resurgence, they've got an easier time of defense than an item-less Sor/Wiz.

[Endarire]

My first thought was 'Druid!'

Soon thereafter, I thought, 'Cleric,' 'Sorcerer,' 'Bard (vocals),' and 'Psion!' These are the main classes that can do well with minimal items. Perhaps get an Unarmed Swordsage in there for maneuvers.

If you want to be an item-dependent class (mostly Wizard/Artificer/Archivist), be careful about this since these classes basically demand access to lots of wealth to play well. There are some workarounds (like the Easy Bake Wizard), but how many feats and other resources do you want to invest instead of money?

[Eldariel]

My first thought was 'Druid!'

Soon thereafter, I thought, 'Cleric,' 'Sorcerer,' 'Bard (vocals),' and 'Psion!' These are the main classes that can do well with minimal items. Perhaps get an Unarmed Swordsage in there for maneuvers.

If you want to be an item-dependent class (mostly Wizard/Artificer/Archivist), be careful about this since these classes basically demand access to lots of wealth to play well. There are some workarounds (like the Easy Bake Wizard), but how many feats and other resources do you want to invest instead of money?

Wizard specifically has Collegiate Wizard, which alone suffices for 8 spells known from each spell level above 1 (way more from 1) with zero scribing. This is more than adequate, and if you ever find any spellbooks as loot, you can prepare directly from those.

As such, I'd go Wizard over Sorc more so than in a normal game as Sorc lacking access to items giving extra spells known AND being a spell level behind real casters without access to Greater Draconic Rite of Passage is quite painful. And in this kind of a settings, a Wizard's Int-focus combines with the Craft skill ensures access to at least basic mundane equipment.

[Fizban]

Three Clerics and a Psion. Two of the Clerics can multiclass into skills or incarnum if neccesary or desired, one of which could even be an Enlightened Fist (monks get sneaky+sensy skills), but one Cleric must remain the primary divine caster and the Psion is of course filling the crowd-control/"arcane" slot.

One character takes Craft: Woodworking to whittle some wooden holy symbols, and another can take Craft: Stoneworking to make a stone knife to do the whittling. Or the Psion can just roll them untrained, a wooden holy symbol ought to be close to a wooden spoon (DC 5) and even a proper dagger is only DC 12. Of course by the rules it'll take days to craft a 1gp holy symbol.

[shaikujin]

And the party shall be called:
Three Wise Men and the Priory of Psion :)

[Cosi]

If you want to be an item-dependent class (mostly Wizard/Artificer/Archivist), be careful about this since these classes basically demand access to lots of wealth to play well. There are some workarounds (like the Easy Bake Wizard), but how many feats and other resources do you want to invest instead of money?

A Wizard who only gets their spellbook and level up spells is at least as good as a Sorcerer, and as soon as anything like Collegiate Wizard or Elf Generalist comes into play it instantly becomes better.