Who would win in a free-for-all between all Marvel heroes/antiheroes/villains?

[The Ari-tificer]

I think this is pretty self-explanatory. Please explain your answer if possible.

Edit: Excluding god-tier entities like Thanos, Galactus, etc.

My personal vote goes to Squirrel Girl. Why? Because she's FRIGGIN' AWESOME, that's why.https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/107222/4452012-tumblr_nl7nhqsiyp1u25b0bo1_1280.jpg

[Sholos]

Dr. Doom. Because DOOM!

[The Ari-tificer]

Dr. Doom. Because DOOM!
I dunno, he's not really as powerful as Galactus or Thanos or even Red Skull.

[Dienekes]

There are certain characters that have the power of plot: Franklin Richards, Cable (uncorrupted), Adam Warlock

So one of them.

Or Squirrel Girl. Because that's her "joke"

[Psyren]

There's true deity-level cosmic entities in both universes that have all been one of the categories above at some point. So there's really not much point in debating this.

Also, I think the Vs Thread guidelines would apply here.

[The Ari-tificer]

There are certain characters that have the power of plot: Franklin Richards, Cable (uncorrupted), Adam Warlock

So one of them.

Or Squirrel Girl. Because that's her "joke"

Squirrel Girl doesn't really have the power of plot.
It's more like plot is one of her allies.

[paddyfool]

I dunno, he's not really as powerful as Galactus or Thanos or even Red Skull.

All have highly variable power levels, but it's worth noting that like Thanos and Red Skull, Doom also had ridiculous cosmic power in the past (e.g. when he hijacked the Beyonder's power) , so I'd disagree here. Just don't be misled by movie doom, who's a pale imitation of Marvel's number 1 technosorceror despot.

Also, standard issue Doom would own standard Red Skull. Even if the skull got the drop on him, it would inevitably prove to be just another doombot.

[Mordar]

There are certain characters that have the power of plot: Franklin Richards, Cable (uncorrupted), Adam Warlock

So one of them.

Or Squirrel Girl. Because that's her "joke"

Yeah, whichever "Cosmic Power" entity went first...Beyonder, Scarlet Witch, Korvac...

And boy do I find the Squirrel Girl thing a tough nut to crack. Pics or it didn't happen!

- M

[JoshL]

Since the answer to this is obvious and clear (and with victories vs Thanos, Doom and Galactus under her belt), I move to make this thread a collection of favorite Squirrel Girl art.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/6/67663/4313978-01-variant.jpg

[Rater202]

I have to imagine that Itsy-Bitsy would rank high. She was shredded to atoms by a plasma breeder, survived, and regenerated, going from a single atom to the size of a spider in moments, and if her form in that state is consistant she'll be more powerful and monsterous when back to full size.

Cosmic tier threats and reality Warpers could erase her existence, but I honestly don't think it's possible to kill her any other way.

[The Ari-tificer]

There's true deity-level cosmic entities in both universes that have all been one of the categories above at some point. So there's really not much point in debating this.

Also, I think the Vs Thread guidelines would apply here.

OK then.
I checked the guidelines though, and I'm pretty sure this is compliant.

[Psyren]

Yeah, whichever "Cosmic Power" entity went first...Beyonder, Scarlet Witch, Korvac...

And boy do I find the Squirrel Girl thing a tough nut to crack. Pics or it didn't happen!

- M

Here's one of the "jokes":

https://i.stack.imgur.com/mTB9V.jpg

[The Ari-tificer]

Yeah, whichever "Cosmic Power" entity went first...Beyonder, Scarlet Witch, Korvac...

And boy do I find the Squirrel Girl thing a tough nut to crack. Pics or it didn't happen!

- M

Ok then.https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--fs3vr0Q2--/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/overoq316n9eapl99mab.jpg


Since the answer to this is obvious and clear (and with victories vs Thanos, Doom and Galactus under her belt), I move to make this thread a collection of favorite Squirrel Girl art.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_large/6/67663/4313978-01-variant.jpg

I will second that motion.

[Dienekes]

Yeah, whichever "Cosmic Power" entity went first...Beyonder, Scarlet Witch, Korvac...

And boy do I find the Squirrel Girl thing a tough nut to crack. Pics or it didn't happen!

- M

I'm sorry I can't really find pictorial evidence of a Squirrel Girl joke. Jokes are supposed to be funny.

[The Ari-tificer]

I don't know what's up with all of you who are dissing Squirrel Girl. She's awesome.

[The Ari-tificer]

I'm sorry if you dislike her. Some of us don't, and we are allowed to talk about her.

[Dienekes]

I'm sorry if you dislike her. Some of us don't, and we are allowed to talk about her.

That's totally true.

And those of us who don't like her are just as allowed to say so.

A bit of a double edged sword, that.

[The Ari-tificer]

That's totally true.

And those of us who don't like her are just as allowed to say so.

A bit of a double edged sword, that.

I see your point.

[The Ari-tificer]

Yeah, whichever "Cosmic Power" entity went first...Beyonder, Scarlet Witch, Korvac...

And boy do I find the Squirrel Girl thing a tough nut to crack. Pics or it didn't happen!

- M

BTW, nice pun.

[Psyren]

I don't mind her, I just think they've run the joke into the ground at this point. LOL, she beat Dr. Doom. LOL, she beat Thanos. LOL, she defeated (well, "defeated") Galactus. It's like, we get it, you're very clever. God knows what'll happen once the MCU gets wind of her.

[Mordar]

I'm sorry if you dislike her. Some of us don't, and we are allowed to talk about her.

Not sure if this is directed at me...but if your point in making the thread was to say "I like Squirrel Girl" and not to have the discussion implied in the title of the thread then I think you should have made them sync up.

I'd also suggest that you might want to remember that people disregarding her as a joke character that isn't to be taken seriously isn't somehow censoring your right to talk about her. Heck, in so doing those same people ARE talking about her.

But if we did want to include jokes in the discussion, I'd say The Reader (who is often depicted in scenes or called out in letters pages and soapboxes or otherwise referenced in the stories) would win because they could just toss the whole group of heroes/antiheroes/villains in the trash bin.

- M

[Lord Raziere]

God knows what'll happen once the MCU gets wind of her.

make her an anime movie and call it "One Punch Squirrel"? :smalltongue:

[Dienekes]

BTW, nice pun.

Double edged sword.

Point.

Ayy.

More seriously if you did just want to talk about your love for Squirrel Girl. By all means make that thread. I probably won't post in it and you'd be free to share all your favorite moments.

But you made a vs thread. So it was pointed out that Squirrel Girl might win. And further commentary that she is a flat rather boring character that has one joke that has been run into the ground at this point (and was never particularly funny in the first place) is a fair response.

But you don't have to listen to my view on humor. Most don't and are happier for it. Hell, I think Deadpool peaked in Cable and Deadpool, and has been growing less funny over time. Despite the fact he clearly has more fans now than he ever had during the aforementioned comic. Most of whom probably haven't read it.

[ben-zayb]

What's the floor of god-tier for you? Would Mephisto, Zeus, or Odinforce Thor be excluded?

Also, shouldn't Beyonder be way above god-tier?

[Rater202]

Yeah, if God-Tier characters are out, than I'm gonna say Itsy-Bitsy.

[lord_khaine]

Here's one of the "jokes":

The joke being there, that it is actually not Thanos. Later in the same serie he comment on how he is able to create clones that can fool even an Observer.

[GloatingSwine]

The joke being there, that it is actually not Thanos. Later in the same serie he comment on how he is able to create clones that can fool even an Observer.

This is, of course, not as good an excuse as Thanos thinks it is. Any being able to defeat a clone with the exact same properties and capabilities of Thanos would also defeat Thanos.

[The Ari-tificer]

OK, sorry. It seemed like this thread was just turning into 'Let's Take Hits On Squirrel Girl'

[The Ari-tificer]

What's the floor of god-tier for you? Would Mephisto, Zeus, or Odinforce Thor be excluded?

Also, shouldn't Beyonder be way above god-tier?

God-tier is anyone who wields "cosmic power" or is at or above Thanos's power level.

(Silver Surfer is an exception to the cosmic power thing, though.)

[Sapphire Guard]

Whoever can survive the Planet exploding.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Someone who's good at not getting into fights they can't win. Who has the fastest spaceship of the bunch?

[The Ari-tificer]

Whoever can survive the Planet exploding.

Good answer.

[Anteros]

Yeah, if God-Tier characters are out, than I'm gonna say Itsy-Bitsy.

She almost died to Spidey when he got serious. She has literally no chance against any of the high tier characters unless you count getting annihilated and eventually reforming as a victory.

[Rater202]

She almost died to Spidey when he got serious. She has literally no chance against any of the high tier characters unless you count getting annihilated and eventually reforming as a victory.

Considering that she regenerated from a single atom and the speed at which she reformed at macro-scale and the speed at which she became fuctional at micro-scale, I'm going to assume that she wins from atrition.

Her spider-sized form is also more monstrous than before, so she may have generated into a form that's more heavily mutated(and thus, by comic book logic, stronger,) though we'll need a second apearance from her to know if it stuck.(She said we'd see her real soon, so...)

[Anteros]

Considering that she regenerated from a single atom and the speed at which she reformed at macro-scale and the speed at which she became fuctional at micro-scale, I'm going to assume that she wins from atrition.

Her spider-sized form is also more monstrous than before, so she may have generated into a form that's more heavily mutated(and thus, by comic book logic, stronger,) though we'll need a second apearance from her to know if it stuck.(She said we'd see her real soon, so...)

I feel like she would get destroyed and re-form exactly once before other characters realized she has to be destroyed completely. Then that would be the end of it. If someone like Doom, Strange, etc wanted her dead it would be fairly trivial for them to do it.

[Rater202]

I feel like she would get destroyed and re-form exactly once before other characters realized she has to be destroyed completely. Then that would be the end of it. If someone like Doom, Strange, etc wanted her dead it would be fairly trivial for them to do it.

God-tier characters are out though, so no Cosmic Tier Doom and Arguably no Strange, and that means anybody who could destroy every individual atom or erase her soul or depower her is either on the sidelines or would require the kind of resources and prep-time that an all out free for all fight to the death does't let you have.

And this is also assuming that people both see her get atomized and know she gets atomized. If all she does it regenerate a significant chunck of her biomass, hell, half the regenerators on the planet have been able to do that at one time or another, no need to give her special attention.

(It's also assuming that anyone else would have survived an attack powerful enough to atomize her, as I'm not seeing somebody busting out that kind of power for for just one person in this hypothetical)

[lunaticfringe]

If villains can win & Gods+ are out then I vote Shadow King. Possess a super's body, fight till dead. Possess super's body, fight till dead. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

[ben-zayb]

God-tier characters are out though, so no Cosmic Tier Doom and Arguably no Strange, and that means anybody who could destroy every individual atom or erase her soul or depower her is either on the sidelines or would require the kind of resources and prep-time that an all out free for all fight to the death does't let you have.

And this is also assuming that people both see her get atomized and know she gets atomized. If all she does it regenerate a significant chunck of her biomass, hell, half the regenerators on the planet have been able to do that at one time or another, no need to give her special attention.

(It's also assuming that anyone else would have survived an attack powerful enough to atomize her, as I'm not seeing somebody busting out that kind of power for for just one person in this hypothetical)
If that's the case, then my money would be on Juggernaut. Dude's survived just as worse and can resist hax abilities somehow.

[Rater202]

If that's the case, then my money would be on Juggernaut. Dude's survived just as worse and can resist hax abilities somehow.

Marko is vulnerable to both mental attacks(which are confirmed less effective against the insane, and Itsy is whacked) and weapons and attacks infused with mystical properties. He's also got a reputation for being a big hard to kill dude, so in a free for all to the death, all the people who can hurt him would probably gang up on him at once. The only people who really know about Itsy-Bitsy are Spider-Man, Deadpool, Mephisto(probably not present under the no God-Tier rules), and Patient Zero, so she's much less likely to get ganked.

And while Juggernaut is known to regenerate swiftly, Itsy-Bitsy is, to my knowledge, the only non-god-tier character explicitly capable of surviving and recovering from atomization.

[GloatingSwine]

Whoever can survive the Planet exploding.

Meh, dying when the planet you're standing on explodes is a mild inconvenience for the average comic book character. I mean it might take a three issue special to come back, but they've all had worse.



Anyway, the real answer to the thread is "Whoever's name is on the book".

[Slayn82]

Isn't this the practical result of from the setup of Marvel Zombies? Then the winner is Death.

[Metahuman1]

I say Deadpool. He's done it before more or less, and he's just as good if not outright better at regenerating as Itsy Bitsy and oh, yeah, 4th wall breaker to counter Squirrel Girl.

[Rater202]

I say Deadpool. He's done it before more or less, and he's just as good if not outright better at regenerating as Itsy Bitsy and oh, yeah, 4th wall breaker to counter Squirrel Girl.Itsy-Bitsy's healing factor is confirmed stronger than Deadpool's, presumably due to the fact that she was literally created to be "Spider-Man and Deadpool combined, but better" for the purpose of killin the two.

If nothign else, it's Marvel canon that when you have the same power from more than one source, it combines into a power stronger than either one individually(To use another example, Venom could lift 25 tons when Eddie gave up the symbiont. Scorpion can lift 15 as part of his base power. When Scorpion became the new venom, the symbiont based spider-powers combined with scorpion's own resulted in a 70 ton base lifting strength.)

A lot of people forget this, but Spider-Man has a low-level healing factor. He can't grow back limbs and it takes a while, but he doesn't scar easily and he can recover in minutes what would take hours for normal people and so on and so forth. Presumably, that combined with Deadpool's healing factor has something to do with why Itsy's healing factor is so powerful.

[Anteros]

Eh, if we're going to start invoking tropes, it's also a very common comic book trope that a character engineered to be better than the original actually ends up being inferior.

Marvel has been pushing out scientifically engineered spider powered villains since Tarantula way back in the 60s and they're all jokes who get stomped by Spidey on the regular. I really don't see why you expect this one to be any different.

[Rater202]

Eh, if we're going to start invoking tropes, it's also a very common comic book trope that a character engineered to be better than the original actually ends up being inferior.

Marvel has been pushing out scientifically engineered spider-powered villains since Tarantula way back in the 60s and they're all jokes who get stomped by Spidey on the regular. I really don't see why you expect this one to be any different.

Becuase unlike all of those, she's actually better than Spider-Man--she's implicitly agiler and more maneuverable based on how the fights are coreographed, in the storyline she repeatedly outclasses SPiderman and Deadpool until Spidey seriously considered abandoning his no killing rule(and Deadpool taugt him how to fight with a Katana), and most importantly she survived and regenerated after being shredded to atoms as a result of being forced into a plasma breeder.

I'm pretty sure that makes her the most powerful non-god-tiered regenerator in the Marvel Multiverse.

And that's only the confirmed stuff. We can infer that she's stronger or potentially stronger than depicted based on what we know of the side-effects of the kind of regeneration she'd inherited from Deadpool, how Spider-Totem's work, and the "powers combine to make much stronger powers" thing.

[GloatingSwine]

I say Deadpool. He's done it before more or less, and he's just as good if not outright better at regenerating as Itsy Bitsy and oh, yeah, 4th wall breaker to counter Squirrel Girl.

Deadpool's already played his best fourth wall card against Squirrel Girl, and all it did was distract her for a bit. Well, distract her enough to steal Dr Doom's time machine so she could try and prevent Robbie Baldwin from being an edgelord and become Penance.

(Squirrel Girl is aware she's in a comic but is contractually obliged not to mention it).

[Metahuman1]

And of Squirrel Girl, Dead Pool and Itsy-Bitsy, how many of them have killed the whole Marvel Universe themselves, twice, and wielded weapons that totally shut down regeneration and healing factors?

[ben-zayb]

Marko is vulnerable to both mental attacks(which are confirmed less effective against the insane, and Itsy is whacked) and weapons and attacks infused with mystical properties.Not sure about mental weakness (https://i.imgur.com/qhkbXp7.jpg), but fair points otherwise.


And of Squirrel Girl, Dead Pool and Itsy-Bitsy, how many of them have killed the whole Marvel Universe themselves, twice, and wielded weapons that totally shut down regeneration and healing factors?Are alternate universes fair game? Because New Sun could simply become pure energy, let everyone duke it out, then pick on the leftovers. (Not that he can't stomp most of them. He took out his universe's Phoenix, after all.)


Issue with regenerators is that, unless they can dish hard and regenerate fast like juggs, in the long run, most of the time they'll just be permanent pink mists on the field.

[Rater202]

And of Squirrel Girl, Dead Pool and Itsy-Bitsy, how many of them have killed the whole Marvel Universe themselves, twice, and wielded weapons that totally shut down regeneration and healing factors?

The first one doesn't count, as it's a non-canon AU. As for Deadpool's Carbonadium Katanas... Yeah, assuming he still has those at the time, Deadpool used them to cut off two of Itsy-Bitsy's hands in Spider-Man/Deadpool 10.

They started regenerating instantly and were almost fully formed by the next panel. Presumably, it would be faster if he wasn't using a regen inhibiting weapon.

I'm pretty sure she's the strongest regenerator in Marvel, at least excluding God-Tier characters.

[lunaticfringe]

Eh. Plenty of characters can fly into space or survive underwater. I'd space or Boot-strap Bill the regenerators. I feel like this is a solid tactic, assuming plot armor is off the table. They might technically survive in some cases but they aren't doing much except living in perpetual agony.

[The Ari-tificer]

And of Squirrel Girl, Deadpool and Itsy-Bitsy, how many of them have killed the whole Marvel Universe themselves, twice, and wielded weapons that totally shut down regeneration and healing factors?
That first point doesn't really work, though, because Squirrel Girl has defeated the entire Marvel universe as well.

[Metahuman1]

Once. DP has done it twice.



As for Itsy Bitsy, Frankly, I think she'd be the sort that Dr. Doom would dup onto a rocket set to go one way with a Doombot, and launch into the sun and have done with it.

[Rater202]

Once. DP has done it twice. In Non-Canon AUs. If those are in, then the prize goes to the version of Itsy-Bitsy that's also Venom (https://previewsworld.com/SiteImage/CatalogImage/STL057089?type=1) from the "Venomized Villains" cover of Spider-Man/Deadpool 21


As for Itsy Bitsy, Frankly, I think she'd be the sort that Dr. Doom would dup onto a rocket set to go one way with a Doombot, and launch into the sun and have done with it.

Okay, 1, that's assuming that Doom has a rocket and a bunch of Doom Bots on him at the time of a free for all battle to the death.

2: That's assuming that Doom Register's Itsy as a threat before he uses that up on someone like the Juggernaut, who he's more likely to know about and consider a threat...Though unles either the rocket or the sun itself if modified with magic, it's less likely to work with Juggernaut than it is with Itsy

3: If he could easily do that he'd have probably have done it to RIICHAAAARDS! by now, so I'm gonna say he either can't-do it or it's not his style

4: It wouldn't actually kill her. Parker Industry's Plasma Breeder is explicitly compared to the core of the sun. She survived being shredded to atoms by that. Sending her to the sun would incap her, probably for an extended period of time, but she'd still be alive by the end of the fight.

that is also assuming that whatever force is responsible for this free for all battle to the death hasn't intervened to prevent such unsportsman lik tactics.

Most realistically, Spider-Man would agros Itsy until either she killed him and moved on or until all the people who could realistically kill her had taken each other out or exhausted themselves taking out the regenerators and invulnerables that they know about and would consider a bigger threat.

[Metahuman1]

He's tried to do it to RICHAAAAAAARRRRRDDDDSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!.

More then once.



Richards is just nutso science guy enough that with his wife making a big enough force field and the ability to direct Johnny and Ben's raw powers, he managed to turn the rocket around and land it with out killing all the civilian's in the Baxter building when Doom did it, after he figured out how Doom got past Richards Stark Level or higher security system THIS TIME.


It's his style, as is ALWAYS knowing about what's going on on earth, always. And he's got the resources even with out his cosmic tier tricks and ability's. So it would be flawlessly in character for him to know and get her that way. Sure, it might not kill her right that second, but it'll take care of her till he can mop up everyone else, and deal with her at his leisure and with his undivided attention and resources.


Hell, he might even make a point to get a few others, like Juggernaught and most of the heavy hitters or regenerators who can't travel back on there own, in similar traps all at the same time just to take them off the board till he's ready to contend with them.

[ben-zayb]

Hell, he might even make a point to get a few others, like Juggernaught and most of the heavy hitters or regenerators who can't travel back on there own, in similar traps all at the same time just to take them off the board till he's ready to contend with them.Surely you jest. Trion-juiced Juggernaut casually un-BFRs himself by walking through dimensions and back exactly where he wants to be

[Metahuman1]

Pretty sure Trion Juiced Juggernaught is Cosmic and if that's on the table I'd like to introduce you to the Doom who stole Galactuses Power with a thought WITH OUT Beyonder Help.

[Rater202]

Pretty sure Trion Juiced Juggernaught is Cosmic and if that's on the table I'd like to introduce you to the Doom who stole Galactuses Power with a thought WITH OUT Beyonder Help.

Whether Trion juiced Juggernaut is cosmic or not, Anything with Galactus's power is, so no Galactus Doom.

Re: Doom putting people in Rockets to the sun.

How exactly is he going to load all these people up into rockets in the middle a free for all fight to the death between thousands of individuals? At this point he's either too busy fighting or he's getting his ass kicked.

Even if he's only doing it to incap them with intent to bring back the survivors and finish them off later... He still wouldn't be able to kill Itsy when he brought her back and she's probably be somekind of spider-like monster, which considering how the Web of Life works, probably means that she'd be even stronger.

[Chives]

Historically it's been Doom or Magneto.

[Psyren]

The joke being there, that it is actually not Thanos. Later in the same serie he comment on how he is able to create clones that can fool even an Observer.

That line always struck me as an Author Saving Throw, either by another writer trying to nullify the joke or the same one trying to hedge their bet.

Also, what GloatingSwine said.


If villains can win & Gods+ are out then I vote Shadow King. Possess a super's body, fight till dead. Possess super's body, fight till dead. Lather, Rinse, Repeat.

I wonder, could he hijack Supes?

[Anteros]

I wonder, could he hijack Supes?

Considering that Supes gets mind controlled or hijacked in every other story, I don't see why not.

[Rater202]

supes is DC. He's not relevant to this discussion.

[Benthesquid]

I mean, once you exclude everyone above a certain power level, it mostly comes down to "Who's just below that power level," no?

A contest among the cosmic levels might be interesting. Have we seen the Phoenix really throw down with any Cosmics besides Galactus?

[sktarq]

Assuming the human race survived? anyone with a short position in the stock market, especially the insurance field.

[The Ari-tificer]

Assuming the human race survived? anyone with a short position in the stock market, especially the insurance field.
Nice one.






























































































































You Found Me!
_/\_
\ ll /
/ v \

[Metahuman1]

I wonder, could he hijack Supes?

Supes has a whole Kryptonian Mental Martial Art, Torquasum Ro, dedicated to just such a problem.





Rater202: Weather he's cosmically powerful or not is totally relevant, if he is, he can't be in the fight. If he's not, then if Doom can steal Galactus's power with a though, he can just do the same to Trion Juiced Juggernaut if worse comes to worse. Galactus wasn't even a truly isolated incident for Doom for that kind of stunt. Just ask The Purple Man.





As for the rest. He's Doom. He's got this kind of stuff lying around just like Batman does. He's got contingency plans within contingency plans for this and a trillion other scenarios lined up to go at the drop of a hat cause that's what he DOES!

As for getting them into it, one quick teleport and he's clear of all other combatants. He waits and lays low abit, and sends in Doombots and hologram generators to draw them into position, and then launches them.


By the time anyone knows anything's happening, those players are off the field.



And with enough time, he will FIND a way to kill them, or freaking MAKE one. Even if he has to separate and split every individual atom in her body one at a time, or incorporate them into random objects, one atom per star system, across the universe, to do it.

She'll be a colossal pain to deal with, but he can do it. Same with anyone else who shows her level of survivability but isn't cosmic tier. Even low Cosmic Tier like Hulk.

[Rater202]

Supes has a whole Kryptonian Mental Martial Art, Torquasum Ro, dedicated to just such a problem.





Rater202: Weather he's cosmically powerful or not is totally relevant, if he is, he can't be in the fight. If he's not, then if Doom can steal Galactus's power with a though, he can just do the same to Trion Juiced Juggernaut if worse comes to worse. Galactus wasn't even a truly isolated incident for Doom for that kind of stunt. Just ask The Purple Man.





As for the rest. He's Doom. He's got this kind of stuff lying around just like Batman does. He's got contingency plans within contingency plans for this and a trillion other scenarios lined up to go at the drop of a hat cause that's what he DOES!

As for getting them into it, one quick teleport and he's clear of all other combatants. He waits and lays low abit, and sends in Doombots and hologram generators to draw them into position, and then launches them.


By the time anyone knows anything's happening, those players are off the field.



And with enough time, he will FIND a way to kill them, or freaking MAKE one. Even if he has to separate and split every individual atom in her body one at a time, or incorporate them into random objects, one atom per star system, across the universe, to do it.

She'll be a colossal pain to deal with, but he can do it. Same with anyone else who shows her level of survivability but isn't cosmic tier. Even low Cosmic Tier like Hulk.
Then why hasn't he defeated Richards? If he can do all of that, then the Fantastic Four should be long dead and burried.

[Lord Raziere]

Then why hasn't he defeated Richards? If he can do all of that, then the Fantastic Four should be long dead and burried.

This question can be asked of a lot of heroes and villains.

Don't think upon it too much. That way lies madness.

[Psyren]

Then why hasn't he defeated Richards? If he can do all of that, then the Fantastic Four should be long dead and burried.

Why can't a guy whose bank account eclipses the GDP of several countries deal with some nutjob with a clown fetish?

Why can't a living god deal with a bald guy after taking his green rocks away?

It's part of the price of entry for comic books. I don't get it either, but you have two choices - accept it, or don't.

[dps]

The answer is, it depends on the writer.

[Metahuman1]

He has on occasion. It's just that Richards excels at pulling crazy crap out of his own ass. He literally once stormed the gates of Christian Heaven and took down Christian Arc Angles and faced off with omnipotent God, just to get his friend back.

And it didn't get him smited out of existence. Hells, last time I saw Richards in a comic he was leaving the MCU to go freaking BUILD his own universe from the ground up.




Guys freaking ridiculous in his own right.

[Rater202]

The point I am trying to make is that if Doom could just do the kinds of things you say he can do whenever he feels like it, he'd have won already.

Occam's razor, the simplest solution is probably correct, he can't do those things whenever he feels like it as it would require at least an absurd amount of preptime, preptime he wouldn't really have in a free for all fight to the death between thousands of individuals.

Especially since Doom is a top tier threat, and thus would have a lot of people gunning for him to keep him busy or at least moving until he either kills them all or someone manages to take him out.

If nothing else, I'm going to assume that whatever Random Omnipotent Being arranged this fight was able to get the real Doom instead of a Doom bot, so...

[Anteros]

So does that only apply to other people's arguments or something? Because you're also arguing in favor of someone who has only ever lost.

[Rater202]

So does that only apply to other people's arguments or something? Because you're also arguing in favor of someone who has only ever lost.

1: I'm arguing that in a free for all fight to the death, the winner is someone who can't die.

2: Strictly Speaking, Itsy Bitsy won most of her fights and only lost the last time when she was shoved into a plasma breeder. Which she survived.

3: I am arguing based on what Isty is personally capable of doing. The Argument for Doom is based on what he is theoretically capable of doing when given enough time and resources, which I contest he wouldn't nessesarily be able to do in a free for all fight to the death when there are literally thousands of people involved.

Which is my point when I say "if he could do that whenever he felt like it, then he'd have already won." If he just had all of that ready when a random free for all to the death happened, then we can argue that Reed Richards, Valerie Richards, Tony Stark, the Leader or even Spider-Man already knnew and created perfect counter measures, and it just devolves into fanboys screaming that their favorite comic book genuis is better than somenody elses favorite. Since that kind of argument isn't fun, how about we stick to what people are going to be reasonably capable of instead of assuming that they forsaw this exact even happning a decade ago and prepared ahead of time?

4: I'm aslo arguing based on relative obscurity In-Universe. Everybody knows who Doom or the Juggernaught is and the threat level that they represent: Thus, the people who can beat them are going to gang up on them and take them out, or at least keep them busy, first thing.

Itsy Bitsy, on the other hand... Only Spider-Man, Deadpool, Patient Zero, and Mephisto know her. Nightcrawler has heard of her, but he's never met her and only knows that she's a dangerous killer who has really been getting to Spidey. Patient Zero has no powers and Itsy killed him easily, Mephisto isn't there under the no god-tier rule, and it's well established that Spidey and Deadpool can't take her even working together Unless Spidey is wearing Otto's Superior Spider-Man suit and actively going for the kill. I don't see Pete just happening to have the SSM suit on his person when a sudden free for all fight to the death happens.

[Metahuman1]

See, the flaw in your argument?



It's not theoretical. FF comics storylines are FULL of Doom and Richards pulling these kinds of things. It's WHY the FF are treated as a big deal when all they've got is person with 2 random passive powers, person with a fire gimmick, brick who's not as good at bricking as She Hulk/Thor/Hulk/Juggernaut, and stretchy science guy.


Stretchy Science Guy is downright insane in the crap he can and routinely DOES just pull out of his backside.


And Doom is just as insane. As for prep time, your also forgetting he's a mage, and he has the power to delegate to a whole country full of robots and fanatically loyal unto death slaves. Trust me, he needs like five minutes if that, and he can make himself scarce.


This is a guy who's BEATEN everyone else you listed as being uber prepped by being more uberprepped and/or out planning them and/or out thinking them, more then once, for each thing, in the past.






Expecting him NOT to have it is like Batman not making any effort to plan or change tactics or use stealth. It's him being brazenly out of character just to improve other characters chances arbitrarily.



Frankly, the one's most likely to beat him would be The Power Pack, because he has a Thing about harming children. (With the exception of Reed and Sue Richards kids, because RIIIIIIIIIIIIIICHARRRRRRRRRRRRDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Rater202]

Expecting him not to be able to load allof the invincible people into rockets that they can't escape from and shoot them into the sun until he finds a way to kill them is not the same as not expecting him to be able to do so at the drop of a hat when thousands of people are trying to kill him and Marvel's other super geniuses and magi are also pulling stuff at the same time.

Being physically capable of doing so is not the same as being able to do so easily.

While he is theoretically able to do so, I am arguing that in this scenario it is highly unlikely that he would have everything he needed to do this on him at this point in time and not have it foiled by one of thousands of other actors present in this free for all battle to the death.

[Metahuman1]

Ok.


Thousnads of people are after him.






What is your argument that someone crazy smart, crazy good at tactics and strategy, and very much playing for keeps,


Would not use one of the multiple ways he has to teleport clear of the initial start of the fight to the other side to the planet and then use the twenty or thirty minutes that buys him at a minimum to make that play, with that many people after him, to maximize his chances? A point I've made more then once now and you've yet to address other then to try and say it's only theatrically possible he's got teleportation tech and magic on him at all times. When in fact he canonically DOES have teleportation tech AND magic's at his finger tips literally less then arms reach away form him everywhere he goes at all times, no exceptions?


Why are you so convinced he would not simply fall back long enough to make the smart opening move? He has a long track record of that one too. One that Stark and Pym and Richards tend to do a lot less.

[Rater202]

Ok.


Thousnads of people are after him.






What is your argument that someone crazy smart, crazy good at tactics and strategy, and very much playing for keeps,


Would not use one of the multiple ways he has to teleport clear of the initial start of the fight to the other side to the planet and then use the twenty or thirty minutes that buys him at a minimum to make that play, with that many people after him, to maximize his chances? A point I've made more then once now and you've yet to address other then to try and say it's only theatrically possible he's got teleportation tech and magic on him at all times. When in fact he canonically DOES have teleportation tech AND magic's at his finger tips literally less then arms reach away form him everywhere he goes at all times, no exceptions?


Why are you so convinced he would not simply fall back long enough to make the smart opening move? He has a long track record of that one too. One that Stark and Pym and Richards tend to do a lot less.
I am operating on the assumption that every non-god-tiered character in Marvel didn't start a free for all fight to the Death for no reason and that whatever omnipotent being is responsible for this crossover event both got the real Doom and is preventing people from just cutting and running.

I belive I said as much, or at least implied it, in a prior post, and I am doing so on the grounds that that's basically the only way this scenario makes sense becuase otherwise... Why would thousands of peopele randomly get together and fight to the death? Especially since a number of them normally have a code against killing.

[Metahuman1]

Ah, but he's not cutting and running. He's falling back for a rather short, particularly by omnipotent being standards, period of time as a part of a deliberate tactic to try and win.



So, unless your argument is "These beings have already picked the short list of winners, the others are just there for no reason, and there enforcing that by only allowing 1 tactic that heavily and blatantly and brazenly favors those pre chosen winners, which is to charge in mindlessly head first with no plan and no tactics and no strategy at all." then your argument doesn't apply here.

[HandofShadows]

It's not theoretical. FF comics storylines are FULL of Doom and Richards pulling these kinds of things. It's WHY the FF are treated as a big deal when all they've got is person with 2 random passive powers, person with a fire gimmick, brick who's not as good at bricking as She Hulk/Thor/Hulk/Juggernaut, and stretchy science guy.

Just would like to point out something. Sue Richard, the lady with "2 random passive powers" has knocked out the Hulk. She is in fact the most powerful of the team in power is used correctly. Just think what a force field that moves around as fast as thought can do. It can be expanded at very high speed to hit a target. Or if you want to get nasty, give the field a very sharp edge and watch it cut through things. :smalleek: Worse, you never see it coming.

[Rater202]

So, unless your argument is "These beings have already picked the short list of winners, the others are just there for no reason, and there enforcing that by only allowing 1 tactic that heavily and blatantly and brazenly favors those pre chosen winners, which is to charge in mindlessly head first with no plan and no tactics and no strategy at all." then your argument doesn't apply here.

My argument is that 1: People only have access to their own abillities and what they'd reasonably have on their person at the time this starts instead of their theoretical perfect weapons and tactics they'd have with infinite resources and preptime and 2: In a free for all fight to the death, the winner is going to be the person who can't die and can near instantly recover from anything short of atomization. Us a monomolecular edged katana forced from alloys of durable metals and ceramics, including carbonadium to inhibit regeneration to cut off two of her hands? They're almost fully regenerated by th next panel.

Atomize three fourths of her body, leaving her a limbless torso? Taking the flow of action into account, she's fully recovered in what was at most fifteen minutes and her new limbs are bigger and stronger than her old ones.

Complete atomozation of her entire body. That incapacitated her for at most a day, and in that time she managed to regenerate from an atom to an ambulatory body roughly the size of a large house spider. With her previous rate of regeneration, I have to imagine that she'd be people sized within a few hours at the most once she gets to that point, and again, she's even more monsterous and spider-like, which usually means that the Spider-totem is more powerful

But, for the sake of argument, lets say that everybody present is at the maximum level of prepardness that they can get. Doom still doesn't win, becuase The Leader is canonically the Smartest character in the Marvel Universe and becuase Reed is most likely prepared for whatever it is that Doom prepared.

And Valerie Richards is even smarter than Reed, so if we apply the maximum preparedness with maximum time and resources thing to everyone, then she's beating her father and Uncle Doom.

Inwhich case it's either The Leader or a Richards who wins, unless of course they and every other mega genius get so cought up in playing Xanatos Speed Chess that they all take each other out early on in the fight, and in that scenario, see above, the winner of a fight to the death is the one who can't die.

[HolyDraconus]

I agree that, if allowed, New Son could stomp.

[ben-zayb]

I agree that, if allowed, New Son could stomp.
If people actually consider Trion Juggs as being cosmic-tier, I doubt New Son would qualify for this fight.

[Metahuman1]

My argument is that 1: People only have access to their own abillities and what they'd reasonably have on their person at the time this starts instead of their theoretical perfect weapons and tactics they'd have with infinite resources and preptime and 2: In a free for all fight to the death, the winner is going to be the person who can't die and can near instantly recover from anything short of atomization. Us a monomolecular edged katana forced from alloys of durable metals and ceramics, including carbonadium to inhibit regeneration to cut off two of her hands? They're almost fully regenerated by th next panel.

Atomize three fourths of her body, leaving her a limbless torso? Taking the flow of action into account, she's fully recovered in what was at most fifteen minutes and her new limbs are bigger and stronger than her old ones.

Complete atomozation of her entire body. That incapacitated her for at most a day, and in that time she managed to regenerate from an atom to an ambulatory body roughly the size of a large house spider. With her previous rate of regeneration, I have to imagine that she'd be people sized within a few hours at the most once she gets to that point, and again, she's even more monsterous and spider-like, which usually means that the Spider-totem is more powerful

But, for the sake of argument, lets say that everybody present is at the maximum level of prepardness that they can get. Doom still doesn't win, becuase The Leader is canonically the Smartest character in the Marvel Universe and becuase Reed is most likely prepared for whatever it is that Doom prepared.

And Valerie Richards is even smarter than Reed, so if we apply the maximum preparedness with maximum time and resources thing to everyone, then she's beating her father and Uncle Doom.

Inwhich case it's either The Leader or a Richards who wins, unless of course they and every other mega genius get so cought up in playing Xanatos Speed Chess that they all take each other out early on in the fight, and in that scenario, see above, the winner of a fight to the death is the one who can't die.

I'm giving you that dooms not at maximum level of preparedness. But unless your going to tell me he both unlearned ALL he knows about using magic, AND doesn't have his armor at all for some reason, he has access to the teleport option I mentioned. Above all, he's always got that and a few other tricks in his armor and his personal know how.








I will, however, give you, Reed or Valerie Richards as possible winners. Though as the Smartest being in the Marvel Universe, the Leader HAS lost to all of the above expert possibly Valerie Richards (I don't know off the top of my head if those two have ever butted heads before.), and to Hulk, on more then one occasion.


So, while they might end up taking each other out, I doubt they'd prevent Doom form getting figures like Its-Bitsy off the board first.

[Rater202]

I'm giving you that dooms not at maximum level of preparedness. But unless your going to tell me he both unlearned ALL he knows about using magic, AND doesn't have his armor at all for some reason, he has access to the teleport option I mentioned. Above all, he's always got that and a few other tricks in his armor and his personal know how. As I've said before, I'm assuming that some omnipotent being has arranged this fight, as it makes more sense than everyone in the Marvel Universe randomly deciding to fight to the death.

Under this caveat, I am assuming that Doom would not be allowed to teleport far enough away from the fight do trigger some "army of Doom Bots pick everyone up and put them into rockets they can't escape from and fire them into the sun" contingency, whether her had the time to plan one out in advance or not.


I will, however, give you, Reed or Valerie Richards as possible winners. Though as the Smartest being in the Marvel Universe, the Leader HAS lost to all of the above expert possibly Valerie Richards (I don't know off the top of my head if those two have ever butted heads before.), and to Hulk, on more then one occasion.


So, while they might end up taking each other out, I doubt they'd prevent Doom form getting figures like Its-Bitsy off the board first.And see, this gets back to the other part of my argument: The only people who know about Itsy are Spider-Man, Deadpool, Patient Zero, and Mephisto. Nightcrawler has been informed of her vaugly.

Why should Doom bother himself with some itsy-bitsy spider when he should be focusing his attention on larger, more well known threats like The Juggernaut or the Hulk, or against Chaotic individuals who would interupt any plans he could form like Carnage or Impossible Man, or else on rival Geniuses like The Leader or Stark or RIICHAAAARRDSSS!!?

Meaning that Doom and the other Geniuses have probably either exhausted their resources and/or taen each other out and/or been taken out by someone foiling their plans long before Doom's attention would be focused on such an obscure individual.

[HolyDraconus]

So if New Son is out, does that auto kick full powered Gambit? XD

[ben-zayb]

So if New Son is out, does that auto kick full powered Gambit? XD
Since like they're virtually the same, yes. Actually, seems like every non-616 Gambit became just as powerful as New Son, but thanks to Mr. Sinister that it didn't happen in the main continuity

[Pit of Shades]

Howard The Duck.

[Anteros]

As I've said before, I'm assuming that some omnipotent being has arranged this fight, as it makes more sense than everyone in the Marvel Universe randomly deciding to fight to the death.

Under this caveat, I am assuming that Doom would not be allowed to teleport far enough away from the fight do trigger some "army of Doom Bots pick everyone up and put them into rockets they can't escape from and fire them into the sun" contingency, whether her had the time to plan one out in advance or not.

And see, this gets back to the other part of my argument: The only people who know about Itsy are Spider-Man, Deadpool, Patient Zero, and Mephisto. Nightcrawler has been informed of her vaugly.

Why should Doom bother himself with some itsy-bitsy spider when he should be focusing his attention on larger, more well known threats like The Juggernaut or the Hulk, or against Chaotic individuals who would interupt any plans he could form like Carnage or Impossible Man, or else on rival Geniuses like The Leader or Stark or RIICHAAAARRDSSS!!?

Meaning that Doom and the other Geniuses have probably either exhausted their resources and/or taen each other out and/or been taken out by someone foiling their plans long before Doom's attention would be focused on such an obscure individual.

Because for your character to win, even if she abandons her established habit of drawing attention to herself and everyone ignores her, she eventually has to be able to feasibly beat Doom or one of these other power houses. And she can't. Ever. The only scenario where she possibly wins is if everyone ignores her and the last two people standing double K.O. each other. If you want to call that "winning" then fine.

[Rater202]

Because for your character to win, she eventually has to be able to feasibly beat Doom or one of these other power houses. And she can't. Ever. The only scenario where she possibly wins is if everyone ignores her and the last two people standing double K.O. each other. If you want to call that "winning" then fine.

I'm going to assume that not being able to die means that you automatically win a fight to the death, yes.

Relative obscurity: The only people who are going to put any serious effort into taking her out would be Spider-Man and Deadpool, who she defeated every time they, even when spidey and DP were working together, fought except the last time when Pete was using the Superior Spider-Man costume and it's intergreated weapons and going for the kill and he still needed to use the Plasma Breeder to do damage that she didn't instantly regenerate.

I have a hard time seeing Pete just having the SSM or a Plasma Breeder on him in this scenario, and if Itsy's going for the kill, Pete's probably dead.

The more well-known powerhouses would logically have taken each other out focussing on each other instead of obscure small fry that only a handful of people know about.

[Anteros]

I'm going to assume that not being able to die means that you automatically win a fight to the death, yes.

Relative obscurity: The only people who are going to put any serious effort into taking her out would be Spider-Man and Deadpool, who she defeated every time they, even when spidey and DP were working together, fought except the last time when Pete was using the Superior Spider-Man costume and it's intergreated weapons and going for the kill and he still needed to use the Plasma Breeder to do damage that she didn't instantly regenerate.

I have a hard time seeing Pete just having the SSM or a Plasma Breeder on him in this scenario, and if Itsy's going for the kill, Pete's probably dead.

The more well-known powerhouses would logically have taken each other out focussing on each other instead of obscure small fry that only a handful of people know about.

Even in the incredibly unlikely scenario that she doesn't get taken out by Spidey and lasts to the end, she'd still have to beat whoever is left. And that would be someone like Doom, or Hulk, or another similar power. She can literally never win. Ever. No. Not even then. It doesn't do her any good to regenerate if she gets punched into the sun. Or banished to hell. Or encased in a metal tomb. Or whatever other hundreds of ways the top tier can deal with her.

[TeChameleon]

Thing is, there are other characters who are just as unable to die as Itsy-Bitsy is- Juggernaut, for one (he's been rendered down to a glowie skeleton by D'spayre, or his sister or whatever, and was still running around like that for a bit), Wolverine has survived being nuked (unless that was during that whole 'fights an angel to come back to life nonsense >.>), which is a roughly equivalent feat (regenerating from being vaporized is technically less impressive than regenerating from being blown to atoms, but in practice, well...), and that's excluding the guys who, while they're potentially killable, what it actually takes to kill them is far beyond anything Itsy-Bitsy is able to do. So we're talking something that will end in, at best, a draw.

All that being said, this kind of thing is a bit tough to judge- I mean, if everybody jumped their trolley simultaneoulsy, then you could end up with scenarios like Storm or Thor spawning superstorms that would wipe out the 99.9% of the competition that couldn't breathe under water, survive being hit by lightning (repeatedly, if necessary), live through being slapped through collapsing buildings by 400-mph-winds, etc., etc..

Speaking of Nightcrawler, if there was a situation in place that made him play it ruthlessly enough, he might have a passable shot at things- *BAMF* up to someone while holding a length of old rebar or whatever, so that it ends up stuck in their brain, then pop them someplace where they won't cause trouble- Itsy-Bitsy might be unkillable, but I'm guessing that getting dumped in the middle of the North Atlantic with no landmarks, hundreds of miles from anything, would be enough to slow her down for a while. And yes, I know that would take Nightcrawler quite a few 'ports to do- I'm assuming that a foreign object teleported directly into her brainstem would immobilize her for the few minutes necessary for it.

... ironically, it occurs to me that the Power Pack might have the best shot at killing Itsy-Bitsy- the Energizer powers seem to destroy matter at a subatomic level.

[Rater202]

Even in the incredibly unlikely scenario that she doesn't get taken out by Spidey and lasts to the end, she'd still have to beat whoever is left. And that would be someone like Doom, or Hulk, or another similar power. She can literally never win. Ever. No. Not even then. It doesn't do her any good to regenerate if she gets punched into the sun. Or banished to hell. Or encased in a metal tomb. Or whatever other hundreds of ways the top tier can deal with her.

None of those are killing her. Fight to the death. Can't die. Bainshing her to Hell or kicking her into the sun, in her case, is not killing her. Trapping her in a metal tomb... Super-Strength. Spdey has 10 tones, Deadpool has 2 as a side effect of his Regen. How many tons of lift strength do you think that combines to? That's Itsy's bear minimum. Is trapping her in a metal tomb really gonna work out that well?(I suppose if someone trapped her in True Adamntium or Adamantium Beta, maybe, but that stuff is ludicrously expenive to make and once it solidifies only god-tier molucule manipulation can actually change it's shape and I seriously doubt there'd be enhough liquid adamantium sitting around for it to be used. I suppose if push comes to shove Magneto could rip the adamantium out of Wolverine and his assorted clones and counterparts, but I'm seeing him having trouble aranging the pieces into something solid enough to hold Itsy unless he focuses on it, inwhich case he's distracted and gankable and also why the hell should he put that much effort into someone he doesn't know about?)

Also... How many of those "hundreds" of ways to beat her are dependant on Cosmic of God-Tiered powers that aren't actually present due to the rules of this thread? Off the top of my head, I can't think of many non-cosmics who can banish people to hell.

I've said it before: Doom is going to be focusing his efforts on big name threats like Richard or the Hulk of Juggsy. The people that everybody present is going to know about and consider a threat.

All of the Big name people are going to be focusing each other, exempting just general psychos like Carnage who are just gonna kill whoever.

Eventually it would just be down to whatever s-through-z-listers are left alive once all the big boys have taken each other out, and Itsy is the deadliest of that category and the hardest to kill of everyone present.

@Above: For Wolverine getting Nuked... Deadpools regenerative healing factor is explicitly stronger than Wolverines, as are his attendant secondary powers derived form it.(He wasn't so much spliced with Wolverine's X-Gene so much as Wolverine's X-Gene was used as a basis for a mutagen that grants a stronger version of Wolverine's healing factor) and Itsy-Bitsys healing factor is explicitly stronger than Deadpool's.

Transitive proprty, her Regen is stronger than Wolverine's.

And the Juggernaut is one of those people who everybody who can hurt/kill him is gonna focus on him first and all gang up on him at once becuase both he and the threat he presents are well known enough to the World as a whole.

[TeChameleon]

Yeh, Itsy's regen is logically stronger than Wolvie's (insofar as there is anything whatsoever logical about superpowers etc., killing catgirls, yadda yadda), but thing is, what exactly can she do that would kill him, assuming he also survives to the end?

And anyone with any kind of time-travel capability whatsoever does have one reliable way of getting rid of Itsy- just dump her into the Big Crunch at the end of time.

[Rater202]

Yeh, Itsy's regen is logically stronger than Wolvie's (insofar as there is anything whatsoever logical about superpowers etc., killing catgirls, yadda yadda), but thing is, what exactly can she do that would kill him, assuming he also survives to the end?

And anyone with any kind of time-travel capability whatsoever does have one reliable way of getting rid of Itsy- just dump her into the Big Crunch at the end of time.

Mainstream Wolverine needs to breath, needs his brain(Stab through the eyes!) Is vulnerbale to Carbanadium(Itsy is not) and was only able to survive being seketonized during a period of time where his regeneration was super-charged by contact with a cosmic artifact. His normal regen is not capable of regrowig severed limbs, at least not on a decent time scale

He's also theoretically vulnerable to Muramasa blades, which also have an anti-regen effect... But Sabretooth survived being decapetated by one and Wolverine's healing factor is stronger than Sabretooth's even when it's nurfed by adamantium toxicity... Unless that was a clone... That might have been a clone.

(Itsy has never been harmed by a Muramasa blade, but if she's resistant to one Anti-Regen effect I've got to assume she's probably resistant to others.)

Regardless, Itsy's katanas are of similar quality to Deadpool's, and thus most likely contain Carbanadium... Actually, since she was created specifically to kill Spider-Man and Deadpool, both of whome have healing factors(Spidey's very minor) coupled with the fact thatPatient Zero, Itsy's creator, being Weasel, the guy who used to set Wade up with his gadgets and weapons means that we can probably infer that they've got Carbanadium.

That's an inference though, my argument is not dependant on it.

[Anteros]

None of those are killing her. Fight to the death. Can't die. Bainshing her to Hell or kicking her into the sun, in her case, is not killing her. Trapping her in a metal tomb...

That was never a requirement of the thread. It's just something you arbitrarily added to give her a chance. The question is who would win in a fight. Immobilizing, capturing, or disabling someone fills that requirement.

That said, there are a ton of characters who could kill her completely trivially. Anyone with any access to magic. Anyone with any access to Marvel bullcrap pseudo-science. Anyone who can obliterate her to the point where there's nothing left to regenerate. There are dozens of them. You're just bending over backwards to create these completely contrived scenarios where any of the dozens of characters who could blink her out of existence never target her.

It's ridiculous. Anyone could win a free for all if they're almost entirely dependent on no one else ever targeting them, and every threat eliminating each other. We're talking about someone who went down hard to Spider-man of all people when he finally got serious. And you're expecting her to be able to last in a fight against the big guns? Eventually someone is going to turn their attention towards her, and that's going to be that. Even if she somehow makes it to the final 2, she's not going to be able to do anything against whoever else is left.

[Rater202]

That was never a requirement of the thread. It's just something you arbitrarily added to give her a chance. The question is who would win in a fight. Immobilizing, capturing, or disabling someone fills that requirement.

That said, there are a ton of characters who could kill her completely trivially. Anyone with any access to magic. Anyone with any access to Marvel bullcrap pseudo-science. Anyone who can obliterate her to the point where there's nothing left to regenerate. There are dozens of them. You're just bending over backwards to create these completely contrived scenarios where any of the dozens of characters who could blink her out of existence never target her. It's ridiculous. Anyone could win a free for all if they're almost entirely dependent on no one else ever targeting them, and everyone else eliminating each other.

1: How many of those characters who could "blink her out of existance" are automatically disqualified for being God-Tiered?

2:
Anyone who can obliterate her to the point where there's nothing left to regenerate.Spider-Man and Deadpool tried that.

It didn't work.

By all means, once you've been shreadded to atoms there should not be a you left. The Plasma Breeder is compared explicitly to the heart of the sun. Finding yourself shoved into that, you normally die. You don't really die of anything in particular so much as you just spontaniously stop being biology and start being physics.

Didn't kill Itsy.

This puts doubt in my head that anyone who is not a God-Tier reality Warper would be able to inflict enough damage to kill her, as I don't think there's anyone who in'st God-Tier who can affect subatomic patrtciles readily enough or on a scale needed to instantly obliterate a person.

3: Itsy ins't dependant on everone ignoring her.

What I said was that, since there are five people tops who know about her, most of the people who would be able to beat her would probably be focussing on each other or other, more well known threats who they'd take more seriously than some z-lister.

significant differance.

What she is dependant on is not being able to die.

Realistically, nobody is going to specifically target her at first except Spider-Man and maybe Deadpool, who she beat in all but one encounter and I'm not seeing a Plasma Breeder being readily avaiable for this scenario.

[Anteros]

1: How many of those characters who could "blink her out of existance" are automatically disqualified for being God-Tiered?


Off the top of my head? Doom. Richards. Strange. Thor. Marvel. Prof X. Where is the line? Is it arbitrarily "anyone powerful enough to kill Itsy-Bitsy"? Because it's seeming like that's where you want it to be.





2:Spider-Man and Deadpool tried that.

It didn't work.

No they didn't. They exposed her to the heat of the sun for a billionth of a second.


By all means, once you've been shreadded to atoms there should not be a you left. The Plasma Breeder is compared explicitly to the heart of the sun. Finding yourself shoved into that, you normally die. You don't really die of anything in particular so much as you just spontaniously stop being biology and start being physics.

Didn't kill Itsy.

Except you don't know that she regenerated from nothingness. It's way more likely they just missed a piece of her and she regenerated from that. Just like Deadpool and Wolverine have done in the past. It's not like she didn't leave a ton of blood and other DNA laying around after the fight. Besides, there are tons of Marvel characters who could survive that. For a heck of a lot longer than a billionth of a second. She's not special.


This puts doubt in my head that anyone who is not a God-Tier reality Warper would be able to inflict enough damage to kill her, as I don't think there's anyone who in'st God-Tier who can affect subatomic patrtciles readily enough or on a scale needed to instantly obliterate a person.


Again, this smacks of you arbitrarily putting "the line" of character participants at "characters who can't kill the person I want to win."



3: Itsy ins't dependant on everone ignoring her.

What I said was that, since there are five people tops who know about her, most of the people who would be able to beat her would probably be focussing on each other or other, more well known threats who they'd take more seriously than some z-lister.

significant differance.

What she is dependant on is not being able to die.

Realistically, nobody is going to specifically target her at first except Spider-Man and maybe Deadpool, who she beat in all but one encounter and I'm not seeing a Plasma Breeder being readily avaiable for this scenario.

"Realistically" she goes down like a punk to Spidey in the first minute if we're taking this as a hypothetical scenario where the characters actually go all out. Ok, maybe he doesn't kill her. She just has to go spend a long time regenerating again. Which is still a loss for the purpose of this thread since killing was never a requirement.

Honestly, she's a B list Spidey villain. You know as well as I do that she's going to be a reoccurring character, and she's ultimately going to lose to him every single story line she's ever in. How many times has the "I have Spider-Man's powers but better!" thing been done now? Venom, Scorpion, Carnage, Tarantula, Kaine, Doppleganger, Arachne, Spidercide, Spider-X, Spider-Woman. Marvel loves this trope. They are not original writers. They all have one thing in common though. None of them ever surpass the original. Itsy won't be any different.

[Rater202]

Off the top of my head? Doom. Richards. Strange. Thor. Marvel. Prof X.Doom and Richards would probably be focusing each other, not some Z-Lister. Strange's power is "can literally do anything, but if it can be done by Science I have to do it that way" and most of his enemies are God Tier, so he's probably God-Tier. Thor is literally a God or has the power of a God, depending on which one we're talking about, and I'm not sure that his Lightning is powerful enough to completly erase someone's material existance. Thor occasionally demonstrates reality Warping abillities, but I think we can all agree that Reality Warping is God-tier even if being a literal God is not. Proffessor X is a Telepath. He'd be able to read her mind, controll her, and even possesses her(Which I would contest would count as a loss since he's less beating her and more becoming her), assuming that her insanity doesn't make her too spicey for him, but none of his powers would let him "blink her out of existance"

No they didn't. They exposed her to the heat of the sun for a billionth of a second.Spider-Man explicitly stated that he was planning to totally atomize her. Since Pete made the Plasma Breeder, I'm going to assume that he knows whether or not it's capable of completly atomizing a person.


Except you don't know that she regenerated from nothingness. It's way more likely they just missed a piece of her and she regenerated from that. Just like Deadpool and Wolverine have done in the past. It's not like she didn't leave a ton of blood and other DNA laying around after the fight. Besides, there are tons of Marvel characters who could survive that. For a heck of a lot longer than a billionth of a second. She's not special. Wolverine can only preform such regen when his Regen was temporarily overclocked as a result of contact with a Cosmic Artifact, and Deadpool's was cursed with immortality. Itsy is probably not cosmically empowered or cursed with Immortality... Though if she is Cursed with Immortality, that kind of proves my point.

Also: Compare the rate that she regenerated her hands after Deadpool cut them off(almost completely regrown by the next panel, seconds at the most) and the rate at which she regenerated her arms and legs when Spider-Man pushed her into the plasma breeder the first time. If Itsy was regenerating from a chunk of flesh and blood she'd left somewhere, I have to imagine that at her established regen speed she'd have been a lot bigger than a spider within the day-tops between Deadpool shoving her into the Breeder and her promising to see us real soon.

And the Marvel Database also says she recovered from atoms and that's usually one of the better wikis in terms of accuracy, so at the very least I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Again, this smacks of you arbitrarily putting "the line" of character participants at "characters who can't kill the person I want to win."Name three non-god-tiered mainstream universe marvel characters who can explicitly manipulate or destroy anything smaller than a molecule on a large enough scale to practically harm someone who can regenerate from atoms.

Becuase I have only ever seen even Cosmic Tier characters as only explicitly capable of manipulating molecules.
"Realistically" she goes down like a punk to Spidey in the first minute if we're taking this as a hypothetical scenario where the characters actually go all out. Ok, maybe he doesn't kill her. She just has to go spend a long time regenerating again. Which is still a loss for the purpose of this thread since killing was never a requirement.
Explain to me why Spidey just happens to have a Plasma Breeder on hand to push her into?

I mean, Spidey wasn't capable of beating or even meaningfully harming her until he atomized her arms and legs, which incapped her for fifteen minutes, maybe half an hour, tops.

Why would anyone just happen to have one of those laying around? And if they do, why would anyone other than Spidey, if they happen to have one or something serious, use it on a Z-Lister and not some huge big name threat like The Hulk or the Juggernaut?

And yes, I'm arguing that you'd need to totally atomize her to take her out long enough for it to count as a loss. A free far all between thousands of people is going to take days.

[HolyDraconus]

Yea, I'm going to have to agree that you are trying to move the goal posts. The title of the thread was " who would win..." killing Itsy isn't a requirement. You keep bringing up this "no one knows her so she has to last longer" as if that was true. No one CARES to know her. Except Doom. That's literally his thing. Except that she can be killed. Let's see. Most iterations of Nate Summers can do it. Full powered Magneto should be damn nearing if not is cosmic in his own right. But since I don't think that he is banned he most certainly can. Skaar could as well. Or does being part Hulk auto ban you? I wouldn't be surprised that Nova could pull it off. Hell, Iron Fist could probably get the job done. The more I think about it, the more it seems that she survived spider soley because he was stopped from doing her in. But I guess. Oh wait... Marvel IS owned by Disney!

In that case Darkwing Duck will straight up bleep her put of existence. And of course, Thanatos will teach everyone how to properly play speed chess.

[ben-zayb]

Yea, I'm going to have to agree that you are trying to move the goal posts. The title of the thread was " who would win..." killing Itsy isn't a requirement. You keep bringing up this "no one knows her so she has to last longer" as if that was true. No one CARES to know her. Except Doom. That's literally his thing. Except that she can be killed. Let's see. Most iterations of Nate Summers can do it. Full powered Magneto should be damn nearing if not is cosmic in his own right.Magneto is powerful, but (thankfully) he's nowhere near cosmic.

But you are on the right track: pick an omega-level mutant at random (except Legion, because that's pretty much Cosmic tier), and there's a good chance that its high-level matter/energy manipulation would just stomp most unprepared punks below planet-busting, even regenerators who'd end up becoming twitching pink mists

EDIT: also, pretty sure Legion isn't the only the Marvel character who has some lower level of omniscience. (of course, it wouldn't be called "omniscience" then)

[Rater202]

Yea, I'm going to have to agree that you are trying to move the goal posts. The title of the thread was " who would win..." killing Itsy isn't a requirement. You keep bringing up this "no one knows her so she has to last longer" as if that was true. No one CARES to know her. Except Doom. That's literally his thing. Except that she can be killed. Let's see. Most iterations of Nate Summers can do it. Full powered Magneto should be damn nearing if not is cosmic in his own right. But since I don't think that he is banned he most certainly can. Skaar could as well. Or does being part Hulk auto ban you? I wouldn't be surprised that Nova could pull it off. Hell, Iron Fist could probably get the job done. The more I think about it, the more it seems that she survived spider soley because he was stopped from doing her in. But I guess. Oh wait... Marvel IS owned by Disney!

In that case Darkwing Duck will straight up bleep her put of existence. And of course, Thanatos will teach everyone how to properly play speed chess.

I specificaly pointed out that Nate Summers/grey, whose power is omnikinesis, is God-Tier, as are most omega class mutants.

Darkwing Duck isn't a Marvel property. He also has no powers or any gadgets capable of inflicting harm to someone with her level of toughness and regeneration.

Magneto would need a frickload of malleable adamantium to in cap her because of she;s probably strong enough to break outof a casing of most other meta;s. Explain why he just happens to have a massive quantity of ludicrously expensive and difficult to store metal on hand for the purposes of this scenario.

Skaar isn;t capable of atomizing people with either his gama powers or the old power.

As Richard Rider asNova lobotomized Ego the living planet andclaims to be able to reduce the surface of a planet to ash, I'm going to argue that he counts as God-Tier. If nothing else, the Nova Force seems to be on the same level as the power Cosmic.

Thanatos operates solely on the God/Cosmic Tier.

Did you actually read Spider-Man/Deadpool? Because Itsy survived because 1: She genuinely outclasses both Spider-Man and Deadpool, and 2: she can survive and regenerate from being atomized.

[Metahuman1]

Way to ignore both Captain Marvel being decidedly NOT cosmic tier when she's not Binary (which is most of the time.), and capable of not only atomizing this character or throwing her into the sun at her leisure, and a combo of fast, strong, tough and skilled enough to make it happen and make it stick.

And even if Itsy Bitsy isn't killed by that, she's just going to spend eternity in the core of an object with a gravity WAY to strong for her to escape, until it goes nova, and if THAT doesn't kill her, now she's stuck at the center of a black hole for all eternity.



And Magneto's ability to create Electromagnetic Force Fields that are hard MUCH strong characters to break. Like Juggernaught for example. Or to just create such strong magnetic force fields that he can reinforce regular metal enough to hold down The Thing.





Both of them could solo Itsy Bitsy in a matter of seconds, with minimal or no effort, are not cosmic tier, Global Scale certainly but not Cosmic tier, and don't need any special prep time. And could do it as a freaking reaction to a first or second attack just not sinking her and do it just to say "Out of my way you no accent Z list punk, I've got actual fish to fry rather then you you Minow."


And also, as for knowing, what do you think the first thing EVERY telepath is gonna do? Scan EVERYONE!!!! Hell we've seen Xavier nearly kill the whole planet when he totally took the restraints off before at the speed of though, and Frost, Psylock and Jean aren't that far below him even with out things like Phoenix Force in play. Nothing stopping them from making Itsy Bitsy annihilate herself, or walk herself to the nearest space ship and launch herself into the sun.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Why does this thread have more responses than just one reply that says "Squirrel Girl".

Oh she was in the OP.

Why does this thread have any responses?

[ben-zayb]

What this thread needs is at least some general definition on what god-tier is or isn't, because based on what other people put in the ban list, it's apparent sense of power scale needs serious considering.

Imagine putting someone like Iceman or non-composite Nate on the same weight class (cosmic) as Silver Surfer. Yeah, all of them will likely punk those in the same weight class as Spidey, DP, or even Iron Man, but SS can toy with those two omega-level mutants just as much as he can with those three popular characters. And that's not even God-Tier yet

This (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/chaosblazers-guide-to-power-levels-dc-and-marvel-689145/) is generally my lazy (not that accurate but it more or less works) reference for power scaling, so I'd like to also see where others are getting there definitions from.I consider there to be 8 basic levels of power between comics. Note: This is without any enhancements or extra equipment for characters.

1. Street level. The bottom level. For anyone without metahuman abilities, or those with very low level powers, like healing factors, slightly improved physical stats, mastery of martial arts, mastery of weapons use, and a plethora of other powers an abilities.

Ex. Daredevil, Batman, Catwoman, Nightcrawler, Bane

2. In-Betweeners. Characters that are in between street level and mid-level. This is debateable, however, I consider the Spiders and characters in their class of power to be substantially more powerful than characters like Captain America and Batman, so they go here. Other character that go here are martial arts masters that have feats placing them here, people like Midnighter and Wolverine that have one or two traits putting them above street level, etc. I place Wolverine here because of his healing factor, which allows him to defeat most street levelers in debates. Luke Cage goes here because his durability means that most street levelers cannot handle him in a fist fight, unless they have very good martial arts mastery, though this is debateable and Luke Cage could also belong in the street level tier. I put Iron Fist here because of his chi abilities, which put him a step above other street levelers.

Ex. Kaine, Iron Fist, Spiderman, Midnighter, Scorpion, Wolverine, Luke Cage, Zealot

3. Mid-tier. Characters like Iron Man, Namor, and Ms Marvel. These characters display strength nearly on the next tier, and have other powers that place them here, but they don't quite have the power of characters on the next tier. This may also include characters like Electro, who have powers putting them on the next level but either not enough feats or not enough skill. Characters such as Thing or Colossus or Rhino may go here or possibly on the next level, depending on how specific we are. Aquaman could go either here or one tier lower. Hawkman might also go one tier lower, but I consider him a good fit for this tier. Namor could go one tier higher.

Ex. Ms Marvel, possibly Starfire, Electro, Iron Man, possibly Thing, possibly Colossus, Rhino, Aquaman, Hawkman, Namor

4. Planetary. These guys are generally a step up from the last level. This level includes most Omega-level mutants, most high end energy warpers, a few bricks, and high end telepaths. Most characters made of energy or inorganic matter should go either here or on the lower level. This also includes elementals such as Red Tornado and Firestorm. These characters might possibly be able to move up a tier, but are a better fit for this tier. Others who may fit here include shape shifters, force fields (Invisible Woman),

Ex. Hulk, Red Hulk, Iceman, Magneto, Graviton, Jean Grey, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Vision, Sandman, Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Storm, Mr. Fantastic, Plastic Man

5. Cosmic. Includes heralds, Superman level beings, Superman knock offs, Superman clones, Superman robots, Superman look alikes, Super- I think you understand. Also, guys like Thanos and Darkseid belong between here and Skyfather level, but I'll stick them here. They are generally seen as more powerful than Superman level characters, however they can belong in a similar tier, I guess.

Ex. Superman, Thor, Sentry, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Gladiator, Martian Manhunter, Quasar, Nova, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Darkseid, Juggernaut, Doomsday

6. Skyfather level. Zeus, Odin, etc. Celestials could go in this tier, but they are a little more powerful than skyfathers. Note: Odinforce Thor is not in this power range. He is above Superman level beings, but not on skyfather level. So, there could be a tier between this one and Cosmic tier, but I didn't feel like making it. Sorry. Not really.

Ex. Zeus and Odin

7. Universal threats/ busters. Includes Galactus, Imperiex, Tyrant, Celestials, etc.

8. Multiversal threats/ busters. Includes beings like Molecule Man (pre retcon), Living Tribunal, Presence, The One Above All, and pretty much all abstract beings like Eternity.

[HolyDraconus]

I specificaly pointed out that Nate Summers/grey, whose power is omnikinesis, is God-Tier, as are most omega class mutants.

Darkwing Duck isn't a Marvel property. He also has no powers or any gadgets capable of inflicting harm to someone with her level of toughness and regeneration.

Magneto would need a frickload of malleable adamantium to in cap her because of she;s probably strong enough to break outof a casing of most other meta;s. Explain why he just happens to have a massive quantity of ludicrously expensive and difficult to store metal on hand for the purposes of this scenario.

Skaar isn;t capable of atomizing people with either his gama powers or the old power.

As Richard Rider asNova lobotomized Ego the living planet andclaims to be able to reduce the surface of a planet to ash, I'm going to argue that he counts as God-Tier. If nothing else, the Nova Force seems to be on the same level as the power Cosmic.

Thanatos operates solely on the God/Cosmic Tier.

Did you actually read Spider-Man/Deadpool? Because Itsy survived because 1: She genuinely outclasses both Spider-Man and Deadpool, and 2: she can survive and regenerate from being atomized.

So let me make sure I'm understanding you. You ban Nate Summers (fine), truly think that Itsy can solo Skaar (she cant), have no real idea of Darkwing Duck's abilities, but banned him anyway (sure), think that Magneto can't kill OR incap, as you put it, without adamantium, when basic biology and in comics it's stated that at full power he can manipulate ALL forms of metal (which includes the literal iron in the blood, good luck with that one), banned Nova and Thanatos, ignored the fact that Iron Fist can kill her and still cling to the belief that she has a snowballs chance in Hell in surviving this melee, let alone winning it?

Oh wait, you banned all Omega level mutants. Since I didn't bother mentioning that Iceman can solo her too. I think you have some rose tinted glasses on. She isn't winning that kind of fight. From what I've read over the years she is a non threat to the mid range of people who have an actual chance of winning this fight. Let alone high end. Hell, even in spideyverse, I'm fairly certain she can't take out full powered Carnage. I'm sure he would have a blast cutting her down over and over till she's absorbed. But you keep bringing up how she solo'd DP and Spidey when both, for once, wasn't trying to kill, AND the fact that when Spidey decided to get serious she LOST.

I don't think you been reading Spidey at all. The kid genuinely has a Superman level of holding back against foes.

[Anteros]

What this thread needs is at least some general definition on what god-tier is or isn't, because based on what other people put in the ban list, it's apparent sense of power scale needs serious considering.

Imagine putting someone like Iceman or non-composite Nate on the same weight class (cosmic) as Silver Surfer. Yeah, all of them will likely punk those in the same weight class as Spidey, DP, or even Iron Man, but SS can toy with those two omega-level mutants just as much as he can with those three popular characters. And that's not even God-Tier yet

This (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/chaosblazers-guide-to-power-levels-dc-and-marvel-689145/) is generally my lazy (not that accurate but it more or less works) reference for power scaling, so I'd like to also see where others are getting there definitions from.I consider there to be 8 basic levels of power between comics. Note: This is without any enhancements or extra equipment for characters.

1. Street level. The bottom level. For anyone without metahuman abilities, or those with very low level powers, like healing factors, slightly improved physical stats, mastery of martial arts, mastery of weapons use, and a plethora of other powers an abilities.

Ex. Daredevil, Batman, Catwoman, Nightcrawler, Bane

2. In-Betweeners. Characters that are in between street level and mid-level. This is debateable, however, I consider the Spiders and characters in their class of power to be substantially more powerful than characters like Captain America and Batman, so they go here. Other character that go here are martial arts masters that have feats placing them here, people like Midnighter and Wolverine that have one or two traits putting them above street level, etc. I place Wolverine here because of his healing factor, which allows him to defeat most street levelers in debates. Luke Cage goes here because his durability means that most street levelers cannot handle him in a fist fight, unless they have very good martial arts mastery, though this is debateable and Luke Cage could also belong in the street level tier. I put Iron Fist here because of his chi abilities, which put him a step above other street levelers.

Ex. Kaine, Iron Fist, Spiderman, Midnighter, Scorpion, Wolverine, Luke Cage, Zealot

3. Mid-tier. Characters like Iron Man, Namor, and Ms Marvel. These characters display strength nearly on the next tier, and have other powers that place them here, but they don't quite have the power of characters on the next tier. This may also include characters like Electro, who have powers putting them on the next level but either not enough feats or not enough skill. Characters such as Thing or Colossus or Rhino may go here or possibly on the next level, depending on how specific we are. Aquaman could go either here or one tier lower. Hawkman might also go one tier lower, but I consider him a good fit for this tier. Namor could go one tier higher.

Ex. Ms Marvel, possibly Starfire, Electro, Iron Man, possibly Thing, possibly Colossus, Rhino, Aquaman, Hawkman, Namor

4. Planetary. These guys are generally a step up from the last level. This level includes most Omega-level mutants, most high end energy warpers, a few bricks, and high end telepaths. Most characters made of energy or inorganic matter should go either here or on the lower level. This also includes elementals such as Red Tornado and Firestorm. These characters might possibly be able to move up a tier, but are a better fit for this tier. Others who may fit here include shape shifters, force fields (Invisible Woman),

Ex. Hulk, Red Hulk, Iceman, Magneto, Graviton, Jean Grey, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Vision, Sandman, Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Storm, Mr. Fantastic, Plastic Man

5. Cosmic. Includes heralds, Superman level beings, Superman knock offs, Superman clones, Superman robots, Superman look alikes, Super- I think you understand. Also, guys like Thanos and Darkseid belong between here and Skyfather level, but I'll stick them here. They are generally seen as more powerful than Superman level characters, however they can belong in a similar tier, I guess.

Ex. Superman, Thor, Sentry, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Gladiator, Martian Manhunter, Quasar, Nova, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Darkseid, Juggernaut, Doomsday

6. Skyfather level. Zeus, Odin, etc. Celestials could go in this tier, but they are a little more powerful than skyfathers. Note: Odinforce Thor is not in this power range. He is above Superman level beings, but not on skyfather level. So, there could be a tier between this one and Cosmic tier, but I didn't feel like making it. Sorry. Not really.

Ex. Zeus and Odin

7. Universal threats/ busters. Includes Galactus, Imperiex, Tyrant, Celestials, etc.

8. Multiversal threats/ busters. Includes beings like Molecule Man (pre retcon), Living Tribunal, Presence, The One Above All, and pretty much all abstract beings like Eternity.


Minor nitpick with your tier system. I'd have put Batman in all of the tiers. :smallbiggrin:

[Rater202]

So let me make sure I'm understanding you. You ban Nate Summers (fine), truly think that Itsy can solo Skaar (she cant), have no real idea of Darkwing Duck's abilities, but banned him anyway (sure), think that Magneto can't kill OR incap, as you put it, without adamantium, when basic biology and in comics it's stated that at full power he can manipulate ALL forms of metal (which includes the literal iron in the blood, good luck with that one), banned Nova and Thanatos, ignored the fact that Iron Fist can kill her and still cling to the belief that she has a snowballs chance in Hell in surviving this melee, let alone winning it?

Oh wait, you banned all Omega level mutants. Since I didn't bother mentioning that Iceman can solo her too. I think you have some rose tinted glasses on. She isn't winning that kind of fight. From what I've read over the years she is a non threat to the mid range of people who have an actual chance of winning this fight. Let alone high end. Hell, even in spideyverse, I'm fairly certain she can't take out full powered Carnage. I'm sure he would have a blast cutting her down over and over till she's absorbed. But you keep bringing up how she solo'd DP and Spidey when both, for once, wasn't trying to kill, AND the fact that when Spidey decided to get serious she LOST.

I don't think you been reading Spidey at all. The kid genuinely has a Superman level of holding back against foes.

Darkwing Duck is not a character who exists in the MArvel Universe, he is banned by default. You might as well say that Harry flipping Potter wins. Doesn't matter what you're argument is, not part of the universe, is not present.

I didn't ban Omega Class Mutants. Omega class mutants are God-Tier characters--Nate Summers/Grey who's power is "lterally every kind of psychokineesis combined at near omnipotent levels" is God Tier. Franklin Richards, in a posible Future, made Galactus into his Herald. Legion, whose power is basically "All the Powers."

That's what people think of when you say Omega class.

I never said that she could Solo Skaar. You said he could kill her. His powers are not capable of Atomozation. Itsy survived total atomization. Ergo, he is not capable of harming her enough to kill her.

Considering that Itsy instantly regenerated her hands after Deadpool severed them(almost completly restored by the next panel), I don't think Carnage could actully slice bits off and assimilate their biomass fast enough to kill her that way... Even if he could, since she can survive atomization and regenerate from atoms...If Carnage can do it, that counts as a win, but... I have to imagine that that's chest-burster situation just waiting to happen.

I mean, Karlin Malus, The Superior Carnage, had no powers at all without the Symbiont. When Cletus rebonded with Carnage, Carnage ate him. He sumhow survived and forced his way out of Carnage, having become a Human/Symbiont hybrid with all of Carnage's powers at the time he seperated.

If a guy with no powers whatso ever can do that... I have to imagine that someone who can survive and regenerate from Atomization is also capable of doing so.

Carnage might be able to beat Itsy That way, if he can outpace her regeneration rate... But he's gonna have a really bad case of indegestion a while later.(Which I'd actually kind of like to see.)

Itsy didnt' loose becuase Spider-Man took her seriously. Even with a "Power Plant" on his shoulder, she only Lost becuase Deadpool shoved her into a plasma breeder and completly atomized her, which she survived.

Iron Fist:
By summoning his chi and focusing it into his hand, he can draw upon the superhuman energy derived from the heart of the mystic serpent Shou-Lao and make his fist inhumanly powerful and super humanly resistant to injury and pain on a superhuman scale. This "iron fist" technique does not involve a physical transformation of any kind, simply a psychic channeling of concentrated natural energy. With his fist in this state, Rand can shatter wood and brick, rip through steel, and punch his opponents with extraordinary concussive force without sustaining injury to himself. The force of this technique has rendered incredibly durable Super humans such as the Colossus unconscious.[70] As well as, punch through Ch'i Lin, who was barely affected by punches to the head from Luke Cage.[48] His fist is strong enough to destroy the entire Helicarrier,[71] and he also destroyed a nuclear train with one punch.[45]Okay, he can maybe pulp her if he goes all out. that takes her out for like, half an hour tops, based on her regen speed when 3/4 of her body was atomized. A fight between thousands of people is going to last days. How many times can he pulp her, while fighting other people while she's regenrating, before he gets tired enough to leave an opening?

Mageneto. I'll admit that I forgot that Magneto could manipulate the iron in people's blood. He could incap her that way... but wouldn't that take up some of his attention, leading him vulnerable to someone else capping him?

Ice Man's power is usually restricted. At his full potential, he's on the same level as other Omega Class Mutants and is probably God Tiered.

I'm not as familiar with him as I am with other characters: How Solid can he freeze people at his normal restricted power level? Like, she's probably strong enough to break out of an ice-block, so it would have to be her that he froze. Can he freeze her solid enough to keep her from thawing out for the few days that a fight like this would take? If so, then yeah, I'll conceed that he'd beat her. If he can't, then no.

And I noticed someone mention Captain Marvel... I know next to nothing about Marvel's Marvel so I can't argue either way on that one.

[HandofShadows]

This (https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/chaosblazers-guide-to-power-levels-dc-and-marvel-689145/) is generally my lazy (not that accurate but it more or less works) reference for power scaling, so I'd like to also see where others are getting there definitions from.I consider there to be 8 basic levels of power between comics. Note: This is without any enhancements or extra equipment for characters.

1. Street level. The bottom level. For anyone without metahuman abilities, or those with very low level powers, like healing factors, slightly improved physical stats, mastery of martial arts, mastery of weapons use, and a plethora of other powers an abilities.

Ex. Daredevil, Batman, Catwoman, Nightcrawler, Bane

2. In-Betweeners. Characters that are in between street level and mid-level. This is debateable, however, I consider the Spiders and characters in their class of power to be substantially more powerful than characters like Captain America and Batman, so they go here. Other character that go here are martial arts masters that have feats placing them here, people like Midnighter and Wolverine that have one or two traits putting them above street level, etc. I place Wolverine here because of his healing factor, which allows him to defeat most street levelers in debates. Luke Cage goes here because his durability means that most street levelers cannot handle him in a fist fight, unless they have very good martial arts mastery, though this is debateable and Luke Cage could also belong in the street level tier. I put Iron Fist here because of his chi abilities, which put him a step above other street levelers.

Ex. Kaine, Iron Fist, Spiderman, Midnighter, Scorpion, Wolverine, Luke Cage, Zealot

3. Mid-tier. Characters like Iron Man, Namor, and Ms Marvel. These characters display strength nearly on the next tier, and have other powers that place them here, but they don't quite have the power of characters on the next tier. This may also include characters like Electro, who have powers putting them on the next level but either not enough feats or not enough skill. Characters such as Thing or Colossus or Rhino may go here or possibly on the next level, depending on how specific we are. Aquaman could go either here or one tier lower. Hawkman might also go one tier lower, but I consider him a good fit for this tier. Namor could go one tier higher.

Ex. Ms Marvel, possibly Starfire, Electro, Iron Man, possibly Thing, possibly Colossus, Rhino, Aquaman, Hawkman, Namor

4. Planetary. These guys are generally a step up from the last level. This level includes most Omega-level mutants, most high end energy warpers, a few bricks, and high end telepaths. Most characters made of energy or inorganic matter should go either here or on the lower level. This also includes elementals such as Red Tornado and Firestorm. These characters might possibly be able to move up a tier, but are a better fit for this tier. Others who may fit here include shape shifters, force fields (Invisible Woman),

Ex. Hulk, Red Hulk, Iceman, Magneto, Graviton, Jean Grey, Red Tornado, Firestorm, Vision, Sandman, Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Storm, Mr. Fantastic, Plastic Man

5. Cosmic. Includes heralds, Superman level beings, Superman knock offs, Superman clones, Superman robots, Superman look alikes, Super- I think you understand. Also, guys like Thanos and Darkseid belong between here and Skyfather level, but I'll stick them here. They are generally seen as more powerful than Superman level characters, however they can belong in a similar tier, I guess.

Ex. Superman, Thor, Sentry, Hal Jordan, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, Gladiator, Martian Manhunter, Quasar, Nova, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Darkseid, Juggernaut, Doomsday

6. Skyfather level. Zeus, Odin, etc. Celestials could go in this tier, but they are a little more powerful than skyfathers. Note: Odinforce Thor is not in this power range. He is above Superman level beings, but not on skyfather level. So, there could be a tier between this one and Cosmic tier, but I didn't feel like making it. Sorry. Not really.

Ex. Zeus and Odin

7. Universal threats/ busters. Includes Galactus, Imperiex, Tyrant, Celestials, etc.

8. Multiversal threats/ busters. Includes beings like Molecule Man (pre retcon), Living Tribunal, Presence, The One Above All, and pretty much all abstract beings like Eternity.


While this is good, such things only tell part of a story. There are other factors that can really change how things play out in a fight. A good example of this is Spider-Man. While he is fairly powerful, that's only part of what makes him dangerous in s fight. First of all is his speed. Old webhead is blindingly fast and is difficult to hit. Then add in his Spidey Sense and it gets much harder to hit him (many writers ignore the implications of this). Then there is his webbing which has many uses in fight and his ability to leap and stick to nearly any surface meaning he has many more attack angles than most opponents. Spidey has often taken on an beaten foes two and even three tiers above him because they can't get a hit in.

[Anteros]

While this is good, such things only tell part of a story. There are other factors that can really change how things play out in a fight. A good example of this is Spider-Man. While he is fairly powerful, that's only part of what makes him dangerous in s fight. First of all is his speed. Old webhead is blindingly fast and is difficult to hit. Then add in his Spidey Sense and it gets much harder to hit him (many writers ignore the implications of this). Then there is his webbing which has many uses in fight and his ability to leap and stick to nearly any surface meaning he has many more attack angles than most opponents. Spidey has often taken on an beaten foes two and even three tiers above him because they can't get a hit in.

Something I like about the older Spidey books is that he gets a lot more respect. He's treated as a top tier hero in the league of someone like Hulk. There's several times when he solos the entire Fantastic 4 or the entire original team of X-Men. Modern Spidey is treated a lot more dismissively.

Off topic, but it's not like this thread is on the rails anyway. Unless anyone wants to go back to talking about Squirrel Girl?

[HolyDraconus]

Darkwing Duck is not a character who exists in the MArvel Universe, he is banned by default. You might as well say that Harry flipping Potter wins. Doesn't matter what you're argument is, not part of the universe, is not present.

I didn't ban Omega Class Mutants. Omega class mutants are God-Tier characters--Nate Summers/Grey who's power is "lterally every kind of psychokineesis combined at near omnipotent levels" is God Tier. Franklin Richards, in a posible Future, made Galactus into his Herald. Legion, whose power is basically "All the Powers."

That's what people think of when you say Omega class.

I never said that she could Solo Skaar. You said he could kill her. His powers are not capable of Atomozation. Itsy survived total atomization. Ergo, he is not capable of harming her enough to kill her.

Considering that Itsy instantly regenerated her hands after Deadpool severed them(almost completly restored by the next panel), I don't think Carnage could actully slice bits off and assimilate their biomass fast enough to kill her that way... Even if he could, since she can survive atomization and regenerate from atoms...If Carnage can do it, that counts as a win, but... I have to imagine that that's chest-burster situation just waiting to happen.

I mean, Karlin Malus, The Superior Carnage, had no powers at all without the Symbiont. When Cletus rebonded with Carnage, Carnage ate him. He sumhow survived and forced his way out of Carnage, having become a Human/Symbiont hybrid with all of Carnage's powers at the time he seperated.

If a guy with no powers whatso ever can do that... I have to imagine that someone who can survive and regenerate from Atomization is also capable of doing so.

Carnage might be able to beat Itsy That way, if he can outpace her regeneration rate... But he's gonna have a really bad case of indegestion a while later.(Which I'd actually kind of like to see.)

Itsy didnt' loose becuase Spider-Man took her seriously. Even with a "Power Plant" on his shoulder, she only Lost becuase Deadpool shoved her into a plasma breeder and completly atomized her, which she survived.

Iron Fist:Okay, he can maybe pulp her if he goes all out. that takes her out for like, half an hour tops, based on her regen speed when 3/4 of her body was atomized. A fight between thousands of people is going to last days. How many times can he pulp her, while fighting other people while she's regenrating, before he gets tired enough to leave an opening?

Mageneto. I'll admit that I forgot that Magneto could manipulate the iron in people's blood. He could incap her that way... but wouldn't that take up some of his attention, leading him vulnerable to someone else capping him?

Ice Man's power is usually restricted. At his full potential, he's on the same level as other Omega Class Mutants and is probably God Tiered.

I'm not as familiar with him as I am with other characters: How Solid can he freeze people at his normal restricted power level? Like, she's probably strong enough to break out of an ice-block, so it would have to be her that he froze. Can he freeze her solid enough to keep her from thawing out for the few days that a fight like this would take? If so, then yeah, I'll conceed that he'd beat her. If he can't, then no.

And I noticed someone mention Captain Marvel... I know next to nothing about Marvel's Marvel so I can't argue either way on that one.

Considering Darkwing rips hard from Batman, it's a good idea you decided to concede on that.
Iceman has been for the longest considered low tier Omega, which was hugely apparent when he wasn't even controlling his body. But if you want to shift the posts there, fine. Rogue is NOT Omega class, but was flat out stated that she has remnants of every power she has ever stolen swimming in her head, which is all limited by her psyche. An unrestricted Rogue will kill her.
Itsy has not shown any resistance to molecular deterioration. As such, she will die to Skaar.

What made the incident with wolverine and magneto so special was just how cold it was. Snap. Done. At full power he can spare a second to "incap"(itsy has not shown she will survive that) someone for days.

Doesn't matter how long it takes if Itsy can't do anything to Carnage. Like I said. He can beat her.

Which one is it? Complete or partial atomization. You been switching on that line for awhile now and attributing her partial feats for total, when all I seen said partial.


While we are at it, show me where it was stated that dead pool was using his carbonadium swords. As far as I'm aware, he has only brought them out in extremely specific circumstances. Namely, when he solo'd the Universe (which means by default Squirrel Girl has lost to him), and when he KNOWS he will be fighting Wolverine.


To save you from some homework though, no. She would lose to Marvels MarVel, who in some instances should be considered cosmic tier.

[Rater202]

Rogue is NOT Omega class, but was flat out stated that she has remnants of every power she has ever stolen swimming in her head, which is all limited by her psyche. An unrestricted Rogue will kill her. Um... 1: Has Rouge ever actually been "Unrestricted?" in canon? If not, then you're arguing based on theoretical maximums instead of what they can actually do.

2: Rogue has copied the powers of multible omega level mutants. If she's somehow been unrestricted and can use all of the powers she's copied at once, she'd probably be upgraded to Omega class.

Itsy has not shown any resistance to molecular deterioration. As such, she will die to Skaar. She has show resistance to atomization. That is a step beyond molecular deteriorization.

Also, do you have a citation on Skaar being able to degrade molecules? Becuase from where I'm sitting he's a hulk that is also an earth bender, and right now he's not even a hulk. Is there more than one Skaar or something?


What made the incident with Wolverine and magneto so special was just how cold it was. Snap. Done. At full power he can spare a second to "incap"(itsy has not shown she will survive that) someone for days. Wolverine survived having his Adamantium ripped out. Itsy has no adamantium to rip out and a stronger healing factor. I suppose that Mageneto could purge all of her blood or something, but regenerating from a single atom and surviving atomization tells me that she can survive having her blood purged.


Doesn't matter how long it takes if Itsy can't do anything to Carnage. Like I said. He can beat her.She's got guns and she's got swords of simialar qualities to Deadpool. He's stronger, but she's gota stronger healing factor. He only wins if he can cut her up and assimilate pieces of her father than she can grow them back. That's questionable.


Which one is it? Complete or partial atomization. You been switching on that line for awhile now and attributing her partial feats for total, when all I seen said partial. It's both.

Spider-Man, when he set out to kill her, commented that he didn't think that she could survive atmomization and to demonstrrate that he was serious Pushed her just far enough ito the Plasma breeder to atomize her arms and legs. However, Deadpool stopped Spider-Man from throwing Itsy in to finish her off becuase he was legitimatly afraid that Spidey would lose his soul if he deliberatly took a life.(Considering that an encounter with Mephisto had left Spidey feeling Nihilistic to the point of sucidal depression at the time, Deadpool was right on the Money.)

Deadpool then faught Spider-Man for what amounts to about fifteen minutes, considering the flow of action, at which point Itsy, fully regenerated and stronger than before(at the very least, her arms and legs were bigger and more monstrous looking than they were before) interupted.

Later, Deadpool, disquised as Spider-Man(he was proving a point) Managed to pick Itsy up. Itsy was not resisting becuase she legitimately did not think that "Spider-Daddy" would actually do it (Okay, you've proved your point, put me down) and shoved her in(destroying his arm in the process), completly atomizing her.

A day at the most later:https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/8/8b/Itsy_Bitsy_%28Earth-616%29_from_Spider-Man_Deadpool_Vol_1_18_001.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/317?cb=20170615013757


While we are at it, show me where it was stated that dead pool was using his carbonadium swords. As far as I'm aware, he has only brought them out in extremely specific circumstances. Namely, when he solo'd the Universe (which means by default Squirrel Girl has lost to him), and when he KNOWS he will be fighting Wolverine.
1:If Deadpool kills the Marvel Universe is in, then all Non-Canon Au's are in, inwhic case Venomized Itsy-Bitsy is in(It was an alternate cover of Spider-Man/Deadpool 21)

2: I've never seen any citation of Deadpool having more than one pair of Katanas, other than the Marvel Wiki giving alternate names for them, though in Spider-Man/Deadpool 1, Spidey comments that the Swords are not pure steel when he gets a good look at them. The Katanas DP uses throught the story looks the same as this pair. This fight was also in Deadpool's Man Cave, where he keeps all of his favorite stuff, and he wasn't armed until after Itsy got there.

It is possible that they were not Carbonadium, which I will concede, but I don't think it's likely.


To save you from some homework though, no. She would lose to Marvels MarVel, who in some instances should be considered cosmic tier.

If Marvel's Marvel is Cosmic Tier, then Marvel's Marvel isn't present in this fight because Cosmic Tier is God Tier.

[Chives]

Has anybody suggested dropping Itsy in an alternate dimension? Doom, Strange and proooobably Sentry can do it. (although Reed can't interestingly enough, Richards cannot compare with the marvel that is DOOM)

[Rater202]

Has anybody suggested dropping Itsy in an alternate dimension? Doom, Strange, and probably Sentry can do it. (although Reed can't interestingly enough, Richards cannot compare with the marvel that is DOOM)

They have.

I have contested that it is unlikely that any of the people would just have it on them or have the time and resources to do so and that any who did would probably focus on other targets over Itsy.

Also, Sentry is Cosmic-Tier and Strange, as the Sorcerer Supreme of Earth 616, is the most powerful magic user in the uniiverse. As Wanda Maximov is capable of using Chaos Magic to create universe wide changes, she is a God/Cosmic tier character.

She's not the sorcerer Supreme though, Strange is, meaning his Magic is stronger.

Meaning that he is also Cosmic/God Tier. At least.

Neither Sentry nor Strange are at this fight.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

And there's the problem with tier lists. The question can without losing too much meaning be rephrased as "who is the most powerful Marvel character after removing all the ones that are too powerful?" You can draw a line for pretty much any character to be top dog that way.

[Chives]

Doom may actually keep a portal on hand (That's his escape route in Ash vs. Marvel Zombies) Not 100% sure though, since normal (616?) Reed Richards can't make one, so it's possible normal Doom doesn't have one either. I'll look into it. In the meantime, can Itsy make her way out of a conjured metallic box? Cutting Itsy down to 25% of her body mass and boxing her might work.

E:
And there's the problem with tier lists. The question can without losing too much meaning be rephrased as "who is the most powerful Marvel character after removing all the ones that are too powerful?" You can draw a line for pretty much any character to be top dog that way.

Look, it's obviously Doom, we're just arguing to the degree Doom wins. :smallbiggrin:

[Rater202]

Doom may actually keep a portal on hand (That's his escape route in Ash vs. Marvel Zombies) Not 100% sure though, since normal (616?) Reed Richards can't make one, so it's possible normal Doom doesn't have one either. I'll look into it. In the meantime, can Itsy make her way out of a conjured metallic box? Cutting Itsy down to 25% of her body mass and boxing her might work.It depends on the metal and the quality of the Metal. We know that she's at least asstrong as Spider-Man and is probably at least a little stronger. Anything Spidey can break, she can break, at least.

[Metahuman1]

Rater, how the HELL does 1 single piece of cover art with 0 text written compare to 2 entire freaking books as an AU?



It doesn't, and frankly, that's an asinine assertion to be making.





And I was referring to Miss Marvel/Captain Marvel/Warbird, also known as Carol Danvers. Who is, make no mistake, not Cosmic Tier except in specific instances which are not gonna be in play here. Planet Tier and capable of annihilating Itsy Bitsy, with no particular effort, but not Cosmic Tier.




And again, you didn't address


The Telepaths,

You ignored the actual arguments on Magneto that just annihilate yours,

You ignored the mentioned points about the hulks,

And Doom DOES always have portholes and long range teleport tech available. He's armor that can allow him to survive getting walloped by Hulk or Thor for awhile, and frankly, it would be nothing for him to teleport himself AND Itsy Bitsy out into the vacuums of space, and then port himself back to earth. A quick, efficient way to remove possible distractions later. (And remember, DOOM knows about her cause him not knowing about her is comparable to insisting Batman doesn't know how to use Martial Arts. It's central to the character, removing it makes it cease to be that character.).

[Rater202]

Rater, how the HELL does 1 single piece of cover art with 0 text written compare to 2 entire freaking books as an AU? Becuase neither of them are canon.


The TelepathsOkay, every Telepath that is strong enough to read thousands of minds at once but who are not disqualified for being God-Tier(Which I think leaves just Professor X?) know abut Itsy too.

Assuming that they don't have an adverse effect from reading an insane mind.

Doesn't mean that they can defeat her, however, and that doesn't mean they're going to tell anyybody who can.(It'd be in their best interest to let Itsy take out people for them, since this is a free for all.)


You ignored the actual arguments on Magneto that just annihilate yoursHe can incase her in metal, paralize her my messing with the iron in her blood, or rip out her blood by doing the same. Barring adamantium or similar, the first one isn't going to work unless he's got a lot of it, the second one might work, and the third is probably just going to piss Itsy off.


You ignored the mentioned points about the hulks Could you direct me to them, I dind't ignore anything I just didn't see them.
The only Hulk citation I've seen is a mention of Skaar being part hulk.

And Doom DOES always have portholes and long-range teleport tech available. He's armor that can allow him to survive getting walloped by Hulk or Thor for awhile, and frankly, it would be nothing for him to teleport himself AND Itsy Bitsy out into the vacuums of space, and then port himself back to earth. A quick, efficient way to remove possible distractions later. (And remember, DOOM knows about her cause him not knowing about her is comparable to insisting Batman doesn't know how to use Martial Arts. It's central to the character, removing it makes it cease to be that character.).
Please provide a citation that Doom knows every little thing about every single z-list character, including ones who are onesots or were only present for a single storyline.

[Anteros]

Maybe we should just drop it. It's pretty clear at this point that everyone disagrees with him, but that he's just going to move the goal posts or ignore our points forever.

[Rater202]

Maybe we should just drop it. It's pretty clear at this point that everyone disagrees with him, but that he's just going to move the goal posts or ignore our points forever.

Excuse me. I am addressing points--I have responded to damn near everything. I am not moving Goal Posts--that would have required me to have set specific conditions and then changed them oce they were met, which I never did. I have acknowledged that Carnage and Iceman could beat her assuming that they are capable of certain things.

I stopped insisting that it has to be to the death. All I'm asking for is citations on claims that "X-Character can totally destroy her" or "she'd never be able to do Y" or "Of course he knows her, he's Doom!"

Skar destabilizing molecules. Doom knowing everything about Everyone. Citations on those things, please, and I'll concede on Doom.

Not gonna concede on Skaar though(surviving atomization means surviving disabled molecules), I just want to know where that's commming from becuase his Wiki page doesn't list that among his powers.

[Chives]

@Anteros Dude, it's a comic argument, chill. We're literally messing about with lore to support our favourite characters. It's nothing more than that and it's just for fun. Now Rater's dropped a handful of clues as to beat Itsy but it seems no one's picked up on it. So without much further ado:

Kill Itsy
Put remains in box
Force field box
Leave Box in Trophy room and go kill Richards.

I was looking for a way that would let Doom just shove eveyrone into the vampire hell dimension, but this is pretty much a perfect way to secure the kill. All they need is enough defense and competence to survive and be aware of Itsy's first attack, Doom's got both. As for the rest, Vic can repurpose a doombot pretty much anytime.

[Rater202]

@Anteros Dude, it's a comic argument, chill. We're literally messing about with lore to support our favourite characters. It's nothing more than that and it's just for fun. Now Rater's dropped a handful of clues as to beat Itsy but it seems no one's picked up on it. So without much further ado:

Project plasma from gauntlets
Put remains in box
Force field box
Leave Box in Trophy room and go kill Richards.

I was looking for a way that would let Doom just shove eveyrone into the vampire hell dimension, but this is pretty much a perfect way to secure the kill.

If the Plasma is hot enough(roughly the core of the sun) and the box and forcefield are strong enough(at least strgong enough that Spider-Man couldn't break them), then yeah, that would probably Work.

So if Doom is capable of doing that and has it on him at the time, this is a viable way of defeating her.

The question then is if Doom has Plasma gauntlets hot enough to atomize her flesh and whether or not he thought to bring them to this fight.

I'd be genous and say that it's a given that if the anser to both is yes, he'd still have them and they'd be fuctional by the time he encountered her.

[lunaticfringe]

Doom's easy. Defend him and his code of honor won't allow him to attack you. =P

[Chives]

If the Plasma is hot enough(roughly the core of the sun) and the box and forcefield are strong enough(at least strgong enough that Spider-Man couldn't break them), then yeah, that would probably Work.

So if Doom is capable of doing that and has it on him at the time, this is a viable way of defeating her.

The question then is if Doom has Plasma gauntlets hot enough to atomize her flesh and whether or not he thought to bring them to this fight.

I'd be genous and say that it's a given that if the anser to both is yes, he'd still have them and they'd be fuctional by the time he encountered her.


Doom's normal forcefield can take +90 tons of force, Spidey caps out at 20 tons. He definitely has plasma, although I'm not sure if he keeps it on hand. If not, conjured hellfire would do the trick. Also, if we're still doing telepaths, Doom is pretty much immune to them.

[Metahuman1]

Doom's Forcefield as stood up to Spidey with the Black Suit before when he was on the warpath. It's stood up to Carol Danvers when she was on the war path. It's stood up to The Thing and The Human Torch playing Hardball before. It's stood up to Carnage going berserk on it before. It's definably strong enough to take anything Itsy Bitsy can dish out on it. And he's got numerous high caliber energy weapons built into the suit, as well as all kinds of tricks for making them quickly repurpose themselves for enemy's that need a specific response to put them down.


And he's a mage. He conjure magic super heated plasma bolts or hellfire and throw it any time he likes with a couple of words and a gesture.

He's generated stronger force fields not bound to his armor as well when he's needed them, such as when he wants someone contained indefinitely.



And yet you argue that if kills the marvel universe 1 and 2 get factored in, that you get to jack up the character using a picture that has no context as your justification?

As for Telepaths, that also includes Emma Frost, Jean Grey and Psylock. And that's just on earth, just off the top of my head, and just heroic or mostly heroic ones. Xavier is stronger then they are, but they are still all planet scale in her powers when they cut loose.

And yeah, taking over her brain and making her walk herself to NASA, launch a rocket with herself in it, and guide it into the sun and get destroyed and your atom's are kept stuck there by the intense gravity, that counts as defeated I'd wager.


As for Magneto? You ignored that he can literally just think about it and generate force fields out of electromagnetism that are as strong if not stronger then the one's Doom can generate. Also that he can choose to actively make normal metals stronger to the point that the likes of Colossus or The Thing can't break them and that even Juggernaut REALLY is going to have his work cut out for him breaking them. Both of which would be highly relevant.




Regarding the Hulks, ok, follow this course of events.

She attacks. They aren't killed on the very first swing taken on them cause they've survived much worse many many many times. They hit her or grab and throw her. She goes into the sun just form the strength of it. And hulks aren't the only one's who could manage it. Juggernaut and The Thing and Captain Marvel could all do it too. Jean Grey could likely do it as well with Telekinesis, and it's at least plausible for Psylock to manage it as well.

He's known about,

The Runaway's,

Cloke and Dagger,

Trapmaster,

The Man Ape,

Loki's change to good (Before the freaking AVENGERS were even totally wise to it, as seen in the first 2-4 issues of Loki: Agent of Asgaurd. And this one was an example of Doom being slow on the draw by his own standards!)

The Power Pack,

Trapmaster,

Savage She Hulk (whom is NOT the Iconic She Hulk at all. ),

The Thunderbolts,

Doc Sampson,

The Warriors 3,

Skin,

Surge,

Iron Fist and Luke Cage back when they were both pretty new on the block,

Jessica Jones back when the same was true of her,

shall I go on or is a pattern emerging?

[Sholos]

I've a question. How is regenerating from a single atom not God-tier itself, survival wise? Yeah, it doesn't let you win fights, but it makes indestructible (technically) by most means.

[Rater202]

And yet you argue that if kills the marvel universe 1 and 2 get factored in, that you get to jack up the character using a picture that has no context as your justification? My justification is that if we're including alternate universe content and non-canon content in this fight, then you don't get to pick and choose which ones you're going with, you've got to allow all alternate universes and non-canon content.


As for Telepaths, that also includes Emma Frost, Jean Grey and Psylock. And that's just on earth, just off the top of my head, and just heroic or mostly heroic ones. Xavier is stronger then they are, but they are still all planet scale in her powers when they cut loose. Jean Grey, Psyclock, and Emma Frost are also omega class mutants, most of whom are God-Tier characters


And yeah, taking over her brain and making her walk herself to NASA, launch a rocket with herself in it, and guide it into the sun and get destroyed and your atom's are kept stuck there by the intense gravity, that counts as defeated I'd wager. And Nasa is just gonna let a psychopathic mutate walk onto a shuttle and fly to the sun? Assuming that there's even a shuttle launch planned that day?



As for Magneto? You ignored that he can literally just think about it and generate force fields out of electromagnetism that are as strong if not stronger then the one's Doom can generate. Also that he can choose to actively make normal metals stronger to the point that the likes of Colossus or The Thing can't break them and that even Juggernaut REALLY is going to have his work cut out for him breaking them. Both of which would be highly relevant. Okay, point conceded, if Magento isn't taken out before he fights Itsy, isn't exahusted from fighting someone else, and she doesn't take him by surrpise and gank him, then he beats her.

Regarding the Hulks, ok, follow this course of events.


She attacks. They aren't killed on the very first swing taken on them cause they've survived much worse many many many times. They hit her or grab and throw her. She goes into the sun just form the strength of it. And hulks aren't the only one's who could manage it. Juggernaut and The Thing and Captain Marvel could all do it too. Jean Grey could likely do it as well with Telekinesis, and it's at least plausible for Psylock to manage it as well. Okay, answer me this: How often do people actually throw things from the Earth into the sun? It's all well and good to say that they're capable of it, but how often do they actually do it?


He's known about,

The Runaway's,

Cloke and Dagger,

Trapmaster,

The Man Ape,

Loki's change to good (Before the freaking AVENGERS were even totally wise to it, as seen in the first 2-4 issues of Loki: Agent of Asgaurd. And this one was an example of Doom being slow on the draw by his own standards!)

The Power Pack,

Trapmaster,

Savage She Hulk (whom is NOT the Iconic She Hulk at all. ),

The Thunderbolts,

Doc Sampson,

The Warriors 3,

Skin,

Surge,

Iron Fist and Luke Cage back when they were both pretty new on the block,

Jessica Jones back when the same was true of her,

shall I go on or is a pattern emerging?

Okay, that's evidence of Doom being pretty on the Ball, but none of those are obscure z-listers known only to a handful of people. I'll admit that it's possible that he'd know of Itsy, but I'm not convinced that he's going to know everything about her.

@Sholos: God-Tier characters are characters who operate, at bear minimum, on a planetary scale--People who could burn the entire surface of a planet to ash. They are literal Gods who battle across the Cosmos, they are Omega Class Mutants whose powers can affect the World entire if they go all out, if not greater, they are reality Warpers who can ignore physics or retcon history. Alternativly, they are people like the Sentry or Green Scar(The Hulk's strongest personality) whose power has literally no upper limit.

Itsy-Bitsy doesn't have powers like that. She's a deadly melee fight who is really strong, has some neet tricks(Acid spit and organic webs that she can shape into razor-wire if she wants), and is impossible to kill by normal means, but she's mostly just a thug and a killer. She's only a planet wide threat if you're measuring the damage she's capable of doing if se goes unchecked for decades or if she gets her hands on multible WMDs.

Or, I guess, if you cloned her a bunch of times and made an army of her or something.

[Metahuman1]

My justification is that if we're including alternate universe content and non-canon content in this fight, then you don't get to pick and choose which ones you're going with, you've got to allow all alternate universes and non-canon content.

Excpet it's not a universe. It's one picture. One Picture is not a universe.



Jean Grey, Psyclock, and Emma Frost are also omega class mutants, most of whom are God-Tier characters

And Nasa is just gonna let a psychopathic mutate walk onto a shuttle and fly to the sun? Assuming that there's even a shuttle launch planned that day?

Except that the only one you could argue being actual god tier on that list is Jean Grey. the others have never fought a god tier or above Foe one on one with out outside power ups except as part of a team and won, or even really meaningfully held there own. As for letting them. Bit more telepathy, we've seen all of them affect multiple targets before. Or they could, if ethics are out the window, just have them have her kill her way onto the shuttle to launch it.



Okay, point conceded, if Magento isn't taken out before he fights Itsy, isn't exahusted from fighting someone else, and she doesn't take him by surrpise and gank him, then he beats her.

Given that he's survived Carnage, Wolveirne, Deadpool and Black Panther getting the drop and landing the first shot on him before and can keep enough pace with Quick Silver to beat him, and Flight on his part traditionally uses for the force fields, I'd say he can accomplish that.

Regarding the Hulks, ok, follow this course of events.


Okay, answer me this: How often do people actually throw things from the Earth into the sun? It's all well and good to say that they're capable of it, but how often do they actually do it?

They've thrown objects in that fashion on a couple of occasions. They've thrown or hit bad guys into orbit and then jumped up and hit them again. Several of them have shown the ability to aim and hit what they aim at when doing these things before. It's not there most commonly used trick, but its an established one, and given that Itsy has no effective way to take these characters out before they can hit back, they'll get to it. Not the fastest win, but they'll get too it.




Okay, that's evidence of Doom being pretty on the Ball, but none of those are obscure z-listers known only to a handful of people. I'll admit that it's possible that he'd know of Itsy, but I'm not convinced that he's going to know everything about her.

Jones whole point was that she started out as an Obscure Z lister. That's literally her origin story and a major feature of her opening story arcs, and Doom knew about her at the time.

With Cage and Iron Fist, that was a major feature of there characters early on. Eventually they did get established to the point that that stopped being the case but Doom knew about them before that.

And your telling me Everything about Every member of The Thunderbolts, Trapmaster, All The Runaway's, Skin and Surge is common knowledge? That these characters aren't Z Listers? No, no, trust me, there Z Listers. That's part of the point, Doom goes out of his way to do this so that if they might be useful too him somehow, he knows what he's dealing with and how to play it to make them useful, and if they aren't going to be useful but might be a problem for him, he can deal with that as well.





@Sholos: God-Tier characters are characters who operate, at bear minimum, on a planetary scale--People who could burn the entire surface of a planet to ash. They are literal Gods who battle across the Cosmos, they are Omega Class Mutants whose powers can affect the World entire if they go all out, if not greater, they are reality Warpers who can ignore physics or retcon history. Alternativly, they are people like the Sentry or Green Scar(The Hulk's strongest personality) whose power has literally no upper limit.

Itsy-Bitsy doesn't have powers like that. She's a deadly melee fight who is really strong, has some neet tricks(Acid spit and organic webs that she can shape into razor-wire if she wants), and is impossible to kill by normal means, but she's mostly just a thug and a killer. She's only a planet wide threat if you're measuring the damage she's capable of doing if se goes unchecked for decades or if she gets her hands on multible WMDs.

Or, I guess, if you cloned her a bunch of times and made an army of her or something.

Leaving this so that there's no claim I tried to cut part of your argument out.

[Anteros]

@Anteros Dude, it's a comic argument, chill. We're literally messing about with lore to support our favourite characters. It's nothing more than that and it's just for fun. Now Rater's dropped a handful of clues as to beat Itsy but it seems no one's picked up on it. So without much further ado:

Kill Itsy
Put remains in box
Force field box
Leave Box in Trophy room and go kill Richards.

I was looking for a way that would let Doom just shove eveyrone into the vampire hell dimension, but this is pretty much a perfect way to secure the kill. All they need is enough defense and competence to survive and be aware of Itsy's first attack, Doom's got both. As for the rest, Vic can repurpose a doombot pretty much anytime.

I was never upset. I'm just saying that it's obviously never going to go anywhere because there's always going to be some hypothetical scenario where the character in question doesn't die, or other characters behave in such a way that prevents them from defeating her. You could do this for literally any character and it's not the point of the thread. I could write up some fan-fiction where Dogwelder defeats the Marvel universe if we want to go down that path.

[russdm]

Why do any of these of Comic Book related threads get started when all of them end exactly the same way: Somebody references Doctor Doom, the Mother of ALL SUPER VILLAIN SUES, and effectively ends any point the thread has. DOOM is the VILLAIN Sue of all Villain Sues, and Marvel comics seems to have nothing but Sues, Mary or Villain.

How can you have any real VS thread with a Villain Sue like Doctor Doom available. What is the point of even speaking afterward?

Why discuss any comics anyways? It is the medium with least amount of attention paid to maintaining any semblance of continuity of any kind, even TV shows like Sesame Street has more continuity in it. Hell, even Barney has more continuity.

IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT, IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT, THE MARVEL PEOPLE ARE MORONS AND CAN'T FIND A WAY TO DO ANYTHING INTERESTING WITH DOOM BECAUSE DOOM MUST BE A DOOMBOT BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT.

All VS threads should have a rule that you cannot mention Fantastic Four, Villain Sue Doom, and anything relating to them.

Again, What is the point?

As for who wins? NO ONE WINS BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL DOOMBOTS THAT ARE ALL DOOMBOTS BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT!!!!!

[Lord Raziere]

Why do any of these of Comic Book related threads get started when all of them end exactly the same way: Somebody references Doctor Doom, the Mother of ALL SUPER VILLAIN SUES, and effectively ends any point the thread has. DOOM is the VILLAIN Sue of all Villain Sues, and Marvel comics seems to have nothing but Sues, Mary or Villain.

How can you have any real VS thread with a Villain Sue like Doctor Doom available. What is the point of even speaking afterward?

Why discuss any comics anyways? It is the medium with least amount of attention paid to maintaining any semblance of continuity of any kind, even TV shows like Sesame Street has more continuity in it. Hell, even Barney has more continuity.

IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT, IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT, THE MARVEL PEOPLE ARE MORONS AND CAN'T FIND A WAY TO DO ANYTHING INTERESTING WITH DOOM BECAUSE DOOM MUST BE A DOOMBOT BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT.

All VS threads should have a rule that you cannot mention Fantastic Four, Villain Sue Doom, and anything relating to them.

Again, What is the point?

As for who wins? NO ONE WINS BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL DOOMBOTS THAT ARE ALL DOOMBOTS BECAUSE IT IS ALWAYS A DOOMBOT!!!!!

Agreed. We should extend this rule to Omni-Prep Batman and No Limits Superman.

[Chives]

I don't know about Marvel, but DC has actually kept continuity for 20+ years. The current Superman is Crisis Superman and the current big 'going on' METAL is drawing on plot points from 15+ years ago. Multiversity is probably the best example of DC continuity though, since it pulls together literally hundreds of alternate-dimension legacy DC heroes (and keeps them in-character), and provides a guide that goes through all the Justice Leagues to date (including the Toon league and the Groove league). Grant Morrison's the one to thank for most of that. Guy's got a mind like a steel trap filled with comic books. ...Although Tom King did a really good job with The Visions. If you want something in the Marvel universe, that's an excellent comic.

[Rater202]

I don't know about Marvel, but DC has actually kept continuity for 20+ years. The current Superman is Crisis Superman and the current big 'going on' METAL is drawing on plot points from 15+ years ago. Multiversity is probably the best example of DC continuity though, since it pulls together literally hundreds of alternate-dimension legacy DC heroes (and keeps them in-character), and provides a guide that goes through all the Justice Leagues to date (including the Toon league and the Groove league). Grant Morrison's the one to thank for most of that. Guy's got a mind like a steel trap filled with comic books. ...Although Tom King did a really good job with The Visions. If you want something in the Marvel universe, that's an excellent comic.

Marvel has kept one continuity since the 40s(There have been retcons, but nothing on DCs level), while DC reboots their universe, switches perspective to a new one, combines universes, or seperates universes while combining others(Somehow?) or otherwise completly resets their continuity every other decade.(Also, Watchmen was merged into the Main DC universe and I have no idea how it's storyline can fit at all in a setting like that.)

Regardless, none of what you said has any relevance to the topic of this thread.

I still Say that Itsy's Got a fighting chance to win this free for all if luck goes her way.

[HolyDraconus]

Marvel has kept one continuity since the 40s(There have been retcons, but nothing on DCs level), while DC reboots their universe, switches perspective to a new one, combines universes, or seperates universes while combining others(Somehow?) or otherwise completly resets their continuity every other decade.(Also, Watchmen was merged into the Main DC universe and I have no idea how it's storyline can fit at all in a setting like that.)

Regardless, none of what you said has any relevance to the topic of this thread.

I still Say that Itsy's Got a fighting chance to win this free for all if luck goes her way.

Until Itsy can solo The Blob, she has no chance in Hell of surviving this, let alone winning.

[Rater202]

Until Itsy can solo The Blob, she has no chance in Hell of surviving this, let alone winning.

The Blob 1: Currently only has powers by taking Mutant Growth Hormones as he was depowered and 2: His eyes and internal organs arne't invulnerable and it is possible to peirce his skin, it's just really difficult.

He also does not regain his self-gravity powers when using the Mutant Growth Hormone, so he's no longer a literally immovable object.

Blob is tough, but he's not invincible, as demonstrated by the fact that he's been defeated just about every time he's shown up.

[HolyDraconus]

The Blob 1: Currently only has powers by taking Mutant Growth Hormones as he was depowered and 2: His eyes and internal organs arne't invulnerable and it is possible to peirce his skin, it's just really difficult.

He also does not regain his self-gravity powers when using the Mutant Growth Hormone, so he's no longer a literally immovable object.

Blob is tough, but he's not invincible, as demonstrated by the fact that he's been defeated just about every time he's shown up.

Currently Itsy is the size of a small spider and has demonstrated nothing but what that creature could do.


If you going to take max Itsy then you have to take max everyone else. Stop. Moving. The goalposts.

[Rater202]

Currently Itsy is the size of a small spider and has demonstrated nothing but what that creature could do.


If you going to take max Itsy then you have to take max everyone else. Stop. Moving. The goalposts.

I'd argue that getting to the size of a spider from one Atom in a day tops indicates that she'd be back to full size within days, but whatever, I'm sick of people accusing me of moving goal posts.

So, fine. Max everyone.

Thatwizardguy specifically gives The Silver Surfer as being excepted from the God-tier rule. I've been ignoring that in my arguments becuase it's ridiculously arbitrary, but that might be construed as moving the goal posts, so no more.

The Winner of this fight is thus The Carnage Cosmic.

Now, specifically discussing Blob vs Itsy?

How many times has the blob been defeated?

Hey, in Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man Vol 1 issue 91, Spidey and Black Cat fought the Blob and won.

Granted, Spidey had the black suit at the time, but this was prior to the ret-con that the black suit was alive and directly augmenting his powers so he wasn't any stronger than he normally was.

As this was prior to mutants being mass depowered, we can assume that Blob was at full strength.

Itsy managed to defeat a more experienced and better equipped Spider-Man while he was being assisted by Deadpool.

Furthermore, The Blob was given a concussion by Daredevil and it is known that his eyes, ears, and the interior of his mouth are vulnerable and that, while durable, he is suceptible to burns of various types and that his skin can be cut. Itsy has acid spit able to rapidly eat through Deadpool's costume and thus can be inferned to be capable of leaving nasty chemical burns, and she demonstrated the abillity to use her organic webbing to make razor wite when she killed Patient Zero. Ultra-durable Razor Wire+Super Strngth=Something getting cut.

Assuming that a super-powered blow to the head doesn't give him a debilitating concussion, or that she doesn't just shoot him in the eye with her pistols.

[HolyDraconus]

I'd argue that getting to the size of a spider from one Atom in a day tops indicates that she'd be back to full size within days, but whatever, I'm sick of people accusing me of moving goal posts.

So, fine. Max everyone.

Thatwizardguy specifically gives The Silver Surfer as being excepted from the God-tier rule. I've been ignoring that in my arguments becuase it's ridiculously arbitrary, but that might be construed as moving the goal posts, so no more.

The Winner of this fight is thus The Carnage Cosmic.

Now, specifically discussing Blob vs Itsy?

How many times has the blob been defeated?

Hey, in Peter Parker: The Spectacular Spider-Man Vol 1 issue 91, Spidey and Black Cat fought the Blob and won.

Granted, Spidey had the black suit at the time, but this was prior to the ret-con that the black suit was alive and directly augmenting his powers so he wasn't any stronger than he normally was.

As this was prior to mutants being mass depowered, we can assume that Blob was at full strength.

Itsy managed to defeat a more experienced and better equipped Spider-Man while he was being assisted by Deadpool.

Furthermore, The Blob was given a concussion by Daredevil and it is known that his eyes, ears, and the interior of his mouth are vulnerable and that, while durable, he is suceptible to burns of various types and that his skin can be cut. Itsy has acid spit able to rapidly eat through Deadpool's costume and thus can be inferned to be capable of leaving nasty chemical burns, and she demonstrated the abillity to use her organic webbing to make razor wite when she killed Patient Zero. Ultra-durable Razor Wire+Super Strngth=Something getting cut.

Assuming that a super-powered blow to the head doesn't give him a debilitating concussion, or that she doesn't just shoot him in the eye with her pistols.

She still loses to blob. I haven't seen anything showing her wire is sharper than Wolverines adamantium claws, and he has tanked that. Add in that in Age of Apocalype his gravity can be reversed AND that she has yet to show strength feats on the levels of Juggernaut and The Hulk, both of whom are currently the only ones that moved him against his wishes, and that his mutant ability dulled his pain receptors, and his strength continued to grow as he aged (maxed, remember) and she has nothing.


Or if you like, we can say that Spidey lost to the Hulk, who lost to normal dudes with guns, and Black Cat was mauled by Sabertooth, who ALSO lost to normal dudes with guns, and Deadpool lost to Wolverine, who lost to Sabertooth, who lost to normal dudes with guns, meaning Itsy can be beaten by normal dudes with guns.

[Rater202]

She still loses to blob. I haven't seen anything showing her wire is sharper than Wolverines adamantium claws, and he has tanked that. Add in that in Age of Apocalype his gravity can be reversed AND that she has yet to show strength feats on the levels of Juggernaut and The Hulk, both of whom are currently the only ones that moved him against his wishes, and that his mutant ability dulled his pain receptors, and his strength continued to grow as he aged (maxed, remember) and she has nothing.Strnger than Adamantium is probably a no, but we know that her Organic webbing is at least as strong as Spider-Man's current web formula, which can't be cut by normal blades, and we know that it can't be melted by Spider-Man's web solvent(From Itsy's introductory chapter, where, after Spider-Man webbed Squid's mouth shut to shut him up, Itsy webbed over that to suffocate Squid.)

Regarless, it doesn't have to be stronger than adamantine. Cutting power is a factor of 1: Is the thing you're using to cut with strong enough to not break when strained against the thing you're trying to cut, 2: How much force or presure is being applied, and 3: The area that the pressure or force is being directed against.

The Blob's flesh and bone aren't that much more durable than normal human flesh, which Itsy's webbing can cut just fine. His Super Toughness comes from , essentially, his skin and fat being able to compress and bounce back really good..

And Itsy's razor webs are a much finer area than Wolverine's claws. And Itsy is at bare minimum as strong as Spider-Man who is much stronger than Wolverine, which means she can put a lot more force and pressure behind her razor webs. Basic physics dictates that, while less durable that Wolverine's Adamantium coated bones, Itsy's razor would cut through soft flesh much, much more easily.

that doesn't garruntee that she can cut him, mind you, but it's enough to state with certainty that Wolverine not being able to cut hi doesn't prove that she can't. As I can't prove that she can, I'll coneed the point.

But again, Dare Devil gave Blob a cuncussion. Itsy could thus just punch or kick Blob in the head inorder to give him a tramatic brain injury.

Or use her enhanced speed, aggility, reflexes, and senses to shoot him through his vulnerable eyes and put a bullet in his brain.

Now, are Alternate Universes in? Becuase age of Apocolypse is Earth-291, while the main marvel universe is Earth-616

If alternate universes are in and we can use any version of a character, then I can bring in Venomized Itsy Bitsy, previously cited, as a theoretical "Max" version of Itsy.

The last time Venom's strength was measure he was able to give a normal human host the abillity to deadlift and hold seventy tons, more so when the symbiont increased it's size and mass. Venom gained this abillty after bonding to Mac Gargon, the Scorpion, and absorbing some of his powers. prior to that, as a result of absorbing spider-man's DNA and powers Venom and evolving over the years, Venom was able to grant it's hosts the strength to lift 25 tons.

Thus, Venom Augmenting Itsy's strength would be, at bare minimum, 70 tons, and probably much, much stronger since it's an augmentation, not a replacement, and she's at bare minimum spider-man's 10 ton deadlift.

the Wall Crawling and organic webs would be redundant, but we can assume that her arleady enhanced speed, agility, and senses would be similarly enhanced to her strength, and she'd gain Venoms Constitutant matter production and manipulation powers(Can you say ax hands, murder tentacles, and litterally forcing boimass down someone's throat to drown them in alien goo?) and I have to imagine that that poisonous bite Venom's got now would have an... interesting reaction to Itsy's acid spit and horrifying spider-mouth.

Or, if you'd prefer, we can just stick to Canon events from Earth-616

Or if you like, we can say that Spidey lost to the Hulk, who lost to normal dudes with guns, and Black Cat was mauled by Sabertooth, who ALSO lost to normal dudes with guns, and Deadpool lost to Wolverine, who lost to Sabertooth, who lost to normal dudes with guns, meaning Itsy can be beaten by normal dudes with guns.You're arguing ad absurdum.

[HolyDraconus]

Strnger than Adamantium is probably a no, but we know that her Organic webbing is at least as strong as Spider-Man's current web formula, which can't be cut by normal blades, and we know that it can't be melted by Spider-Man's web solvent(From Itsy's introductory chapter, where, after Spider-Man webbed Squid's mouth shut to shut him up, Itsy webbed over that to suffocate Squid.)

Regarless, it doesn't have to be stronger than adamantine. Cutting power is a factor of 1: Is the thing you're using to cut with strong enough to not break when strained against the thing you're trying to cut, 2: How much force or presure is being applied, and 3: The area that the pressure or force is being directed against.

The Blob's flesh and bone aren't that much more durable than normal human flesh, which Itsy's webbing can cut just fine. His Super Toughness comes from , essentially, his skin and fat being able to compress and bounce back really good..

And Itsy's razor webs are a much finer area than Wolverine's claws. And Itsy is at bare minimum as strong as Spider-Man who is much stronger than Wolverine, which means she can put a lot more force and pressure behind her razor webs. Basic physics dictates that, while less durable that Wolverine's Adamantium coated bones, Itsy's razor would cut through soft flesh much, much more easily.

that doesn't garruntee that she can cut him, mind you, but it's enough to state with certainty that Wolverine not being able to cut hi doesn't prove that she can't. As I can't prove that she can, I'll coneed the point.

But again, Dare Devil gave Blob a cuncussion. Itsy could thus just punch or kick Blob in the head inorder to give him a tramatic brain injury.

Or use her enhanced speed, aggility, reflexes, and senses to shoot him through his vulnerable eyes and put a bullet in his brain.

Now, are Alternate Universes in? Becuase age of Apocolypse is Earth-291, while the main marvel universe is Earth-616

If alternate universes are in and we can use any version of a character, then I can bring in Venomized Itsy Bitsy, previously cited, as a theoretical "Max" version of Itsy.

The last time Venom's strength was measure he was able to give a normal human host the abillity to deadlift and hold seventy tons, more so when the symbiont increased it's size and mass. Venom gained this abillty after bonding to Mac Gargon, the Scorpion, and absorbing some of his powers. prior to that, as a result of absorbing spider-man's DNA and powers Venom and evolving over the years, Venom was able to grant it's hosts the strength to lift 25 tons.

Thus, Venom Augmenting Itsy's strength would be, at bare minimum, 70 tons, and probably much, much stronger since it's an augmentation, not a replacement, and she's at bare minimum spider-man's 10 ton deadlift.

the Wall Crawling and organic webs would be redundant, but we can assume that her arleady enhanced speed, agility, and senses would be similarly enhanced to her strength, and she'd gain Venoms Constitutant matter production and manipulation powers(Can you say ax hands, murder tentacles, and litterally forcing boimass down someone's throat to drown them in alien goo?) and I have to imagine that that poisonous bite Venom's got now would have an... interesting reaction to Itsy's acid spit and horrifying spider-mouth.

Or, if you'd prefer, we can just stick to Canon events from Earth-616
You're arguing ad absurdum.let's see. You state that not giving in to adamantium isn't a factor, but then go on to mention that I am supposed to believe that webbing will hold up against him after that, even though you admitted the web's aren't as strong as adamantium. So they will break.
He's been shot at before to ZERO effect, but I'm supposed to believe that she will do what countless others have not. Worse, he has and can rebound speedsters off his body (QuickSilver), so now either you are claiming she's faster than QuickSilver, a mutant who was fast enough to go through time I might add, or her agility is a non factor. Let's not forget that his default settings when it comes to his gravity is to force them in close, to prevent him from moving, or to throw back kinetic energy at half power, by preventing it from effecting him.

And let's not forget that, since this is before nerfed Blob, he IS on record going over 70 tons lifting. What's Itsy' s max again?

And wow, age of apocalypse blob, like several others from that TIMELINE(Not alternate universe, which nulls a lot of your venom itsy wanking) crossed over into main continuity at multiple points. Speaking of Venom Itsy, what feats does SHE have? Don't tell me what feats others have done in that situation: what are HERS. Last I checked, she has none. Zero. As such, dude with guns K.O.s her.


By the way. If you haven't noticed what's going on then I really will feel sad for you.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

While I don't know enough about most of the comic heroes, in the cinematic universe (which for the purpose of this discussion includes some version of everyone who's ever been in a movie or series, like the X-men) I think the winner might actually be Black Widow.

While some heroes are stronger than others, none of them can take out everyone else, agreed? that means this is going to be about forging alliances and avoiding fights you can't take as much as it is about combat ability. On the avoiding fights front Daredevil has a great secret identity, but ones he's found out one time it becomes much harder for him to pull it off again, because now the other guys know they're looking for a blind man. And Hulk is the master of disappearing, as long as he doesn't Hulk out, and even when he does it usually ends up pretty alright, but Banner is not that much of a people person. He's a loner who people sometimes get sympathy for. While he could probably take on half the cinematic universe by himself, he has no way to get the other half to leave him alone until he's done with the first batch. So we're looking for someone well connected. Nick Fury and Professor Xavier have the most connections probably, but they're also very entrenched in their own teams. If one of those groups seems like they're winning they're going to be ganged up on, and Fury and Xavier will definitely be important targets ones things get serious. Widow is the only character I can think of that checks all the boxes. She has loyalty to her pals at the Avengers, but has the right mindset to be able to weave in and out of that as needed. She has enough connections and ways to create connections elsewhere, she can infiltrate pretty much anywhere to put barriers between others and herself or she can hide in plain side. Even just physically she is one of those heroes who can look pretty normal by not washing her hair for a week and wearing a loose sweater. An overly muscled giant of a man who stands out even just by being taller than any crowd they're in she ain't. Semi-realistically she's probably the only one who can keep playing the game to her strengths until there's only a single wounded competitor left. Which she then kills, with a small knife she kept in her skintight boot, while doing a backflip.

[HolyDraconus]

As much as I am starting to hate the meme, it's true: the thread should of ended when Squirrel Girl was mentioned.

[TeChameleon]

There's one simple aspect to this whole Itsy-Bitsy nonsense that Rater appears to be carefully ignoring- namely that, killable or not, she's irrelevant. She cannot meaningfully alter a matchup between really big guns, and there is a very real possibility that she'd get taken out as a side effect of someone trying to kill one of the other regenerators- if one of the supergeniuses (probably Hank Pym, given his habit of 'oops, I accidentallied the planet again') developed something that would shut off Wolverine-style regen because they wanted Deadpool, Wovie, or Sabretooth gone, Itsy is going down too (and no, stronger regeneration wouldn't matter, given that 'powers turned off' is not an injury). Heck, a Genoshan slave collar would do it.

Then there's the fact that some of the weakest Marvel teams could take her out. Power Pack could do it- the Energizer Powers (whoever's weilding them this week) cause distintegration at a subatomic level, something that Itsy has not been shown to be capable of surviving. The Great Lakes Avengers could take her out, too- Doorman could simply play the 'you're dead' card, or even just punt her into the Darkforce Dimension, which she has no ability to escape from. Cloak and Dagger could do the same, for that matter.

Kitty Pryde could just phase her into the ground- she'd survive, obviously, but I'm pretty sure she'd be immobilized fairly thoroughly. Quicksilver could just dump her into the middle of the ocean- she wouldn't be dead, but unless she gets off on murdering fish, she's not going to be too happy.

And then there's the fruitloops like Mr. Sinister, who would probably be quite happy to capture Itsy and experiment on her forever. Same with Dark Beast.

Another quick-and-easy solution to the Itsy problem, and one that she would have no way whatsoever of countering, considering he's even more Z-list than she is, would be Leech. Step within range of his powers, and boom, no more healing factor, no more strength, no more anything other than pre-powerup her. And then someone who actually knows how to fight would put her lights out.

... as an aside, Dr. Doom knowing of the Warriors Three is impressive, given that to the best of my knowledge, they very, very rarely operated on Earth. In fact, the only time that I know of was during Surtur's invasion of Earth when the assembled hosts of Asgard were in New York, because of course Surtur invaded New York, so they wouldn't exactly have stood out from the crowd there.

[Rater202]

There's one simple aspect to this whole Itsy-Bitsy nonsense that Rater appears to be carefully ignoring- namely that, killable or not, she's irrelevant. She cannot meaningfully alter a matchup between really big guns, and there is a very real possibility that she'd get taken out as a side effect of someone trying to kill one of the other regenerators- if one of the supergeniuses (probably Hank Pym, given his habit of 'oops, I accidentallied the planet again') developed something that would shut off Wolverine-style regen because they wanted Deadpool, Wovie, or Sabretooth gone, Itsy is going down too (and no, stronger regeneration wouldn't matter, given that 'powers turned off' is not an injury). Heck, a Genoshan slave collar would do it.Okay, you've turned off her regen.

She still has all of sider-man's powers, acid spit, six arms, fangs and claws, katanas and guns, and no qualms about getting lethal.

Although I would contend that you'd have to actually get the Genoshan slave color on her,
which would be hard becuase, well, spider-powers.

I'll concede that someone could cook up something to turn off Wolverine style regen, but that hardly seems sporting to argue that "X-loses becuase y turns off all powers of z category to take out A, B, and C." If that's an argument we're going to make, then why stop at regenerators? Just have whoever turn off all powers.

Then the Punisher wins becuase he's not affected at all.
Then there's the fact that some of the weakest Marvel teams could take her out. Power Pack could do it- the Energizer Powers (whoever's weilding them this week) cause distintegration at a subatomic level, something that Itsy has not been shown to be capable of surviving. The Great Lakes Avengers could take her out, too- Doorman could simply play the 'you're dead' card, or even just punt her into the Darkforce Dimension, which she has no ability to escape from. Cloak and Dagger could do the same, for that matter.

Kitty Pryde could just phase her into the ground- she'd survive, obviously, but I'm pretty sure she'd be immobilized fairly thoroughly. Quicksilver could just dump her into the middle of the ocean- she wouldn't be dead, but unless she gets off on murdering fish, she's not going to be too happy. I will conceed that any of them could take her out, assuming that they can actually land a hit on her and were not taken out by someone else prior to them encountering Itsy.


And then there are the fruitloops like Mr. Sinister, who would probably be quite happy to capture Itsy and experiment on her forever. Same with Dark Beast.That's less something you do during a free for all and more something you do after the free for all, when you've already one.

Also, I'm not sure Sinister would be that interested. He's got samples of Carnage's DNA, and Carnage has all the same powers as Spider-Man but moreso and more of them. He's also basically got the DNA of most of the X-Men and their affiliates, so if he doens't have Deadpool's DNA, he's got a wolverine style regenerator somewhere. Finally, his creation Xraven is, on a purely scientific basis, more impressive as he essentially took a piece of Carnage, made it humanoid, and gave it the combnined powers of the Original Five X-Men+Kraven the Hunter's magically altered physiology.

He could probably make his own Itsy from scratch if he really wanted to and he would probably be better.

Though that's neither here nor there.


Another quick-and-easy solution to the Itsy problem, and one that she would have no way whatsoever of countering, considering he's even more Z-list than she is, would be Leech. Step within range of his powers, and boom, no more healing factor, no more strength, no more anything other than pre-powerup her. And then someone who actually knows how to fight would put her lights out.Itsy has guns and knows how to use them. Leech is not bullet proof.

Also, fair play, wouldn't the power negater be one of the people who gets taken out as soon as people know what he is?

Also, the Wiki is vauge, do his powers negate physical mutations? Becuase the Wiki only says it turns off nural pathways related to powers

Reminder: I'm not arguing that she wins the whole thing anymore. I'm arguing that she has a chance depending on match ups and luck and I'm arguing individual match ups.

I mean, this is a free for all, not "the character you select has to run the guantlet."

[HolyDraconus]

It only turned into such when people dismissed her as a credible contender for winning, and you continued insisting that she was. She doesn't have a chance. There are way too many non god tiered opponents that can take her out before she can even claim to be standing after the first dust settles. There are no "sneak attacks" she can launch, no "waiting, or hanging back" to let others fight while she hides. She will be bodied immediately with the rest of the low tier trash, so the higher ups can have a clearer view of their REAL opponents. It's going to go along the lines of a planet wide nuke. Those that survive, well congrats, cause now the real fight begins.

[Rater202]

There are no "sneak attacks" she can launch, no "waiting, or hanging back" to let others fight while she hides.

Says who?

That's the kind of thing that happens in a free for all.

And sneak-attacks are how Itsy says hello(Her first two fights opened with her coming out of nowhere and killing/trying to kill somone)

I mean, it kind of sounds like you're moving the goal posts to guarantee that Itsy loses, saying that she's got to run the gauntlet and that all of the characters below a certain tier get taken out by a planet-wide nuke and all that.

If pointing out that a character currently doesn't have powers or is probably god-tier counts as moving the goal posts, then arbitrarily disallowing tactics, changing the nature of the fight, and declaring cataclysmic events certainly does as well.

[HolyDraconus]

Says who?

That's the kind of thing that happens in a free for all.

And sneak-attacks are how Itsy says hello(Her first two fights opened with her coming out of nowhere and killing/trying to kill somone)

I mean, it kind of sounds like you're moving the goal posts to guarantee that Itsy loses, saying that she's got to run the gauntlet and that all of the characters below a certain tier get taken out by a planet-wide nuke and all that.

If pointing out that a character currently doesn't have powers or is probably god-tier counts as moving the goal posts, then arbitrarily disallowing tactics, changing the nature of the fight, and declaring cataclysmic events certainly does as well.

Do you understand what free for all means? It doesn't mean one versus this one lone guy at a point of my choosing. It means: everyone vs everyone at once. I didn't disallow the tactic; it was never valid to begin with. You are going to have people like Magneto AoEing as much as possible, Firestorm AoEing as much as possible, Human Torch, War Machine, Shadow King, etc, all at once, on everyone. At once. I'm not saying Itsy needs to run a gauntlet: I'm saying she would have evaporated long before then. And when you have people who have powers that can manipulate things on a planetary scale, cataclysmic events WILL happen. Do you understand now?

[Rater202]

Do you understand what free for all means? It doesn't mean one versus this one lone guy at a point of my choosing. It means: everyone vs everyone at once. I didn't disallow the tactic; it was never valid to begin with. You are going to have people like Magneto AoEing as much as possible, Firestorm AoEing as much as possible, Human Torch, War Machine, Shadow King, etc, all at once, on everyone. At once. I'm not saying Itsy needs to run a gauntlet: I'm saying she would have evaporated long before then. And when you have people who have powers that can manipulate things on a planetary scale, cataclysmic events WILL happen. Do you understand now?

1:I thought we determined that "planetary" scale powers were god tier.

2: Nobody is going to nuke the whole planet as their opening move.

3:
everyone vs everyone at once.And during such an engagement, it is a perfectly valid tactic to avoid ingaging anyone in particular and just go around capping people while they're distracted fighting someone else.

Which is quite similar to how Itsy killed Patient Zero, for example.

[HolyDraconus]

1:I thought we determined that "planetary" scale powers were god tier. planetary and god tier are two different things in marvelverse. Lumping them together is like saying Toad is equal to Thanos.


2: Nobody is going to nuke the whole planet as their opening move. in free for all, where everyone is an enemy, why the Hell would you hold back? Especially when you can survive whatever you can dish? Glassing the planet as an opening move makes the most tactical sense. Since there ARE people that can flat out turn invisible, or move faster than you can target them, or can eventually adapt to your particular set of skills. Focusing on one person when you still have hundreds to deal with, when instead you can just take out hundreds, is beyond stupid.


3:And during such an engagement, it is a perfectly valid tactic to avoid ingaging anyone in particular and just go around capping people while they're distracted fighting someone else.
she can't. She's spacedust already. She's not immortal or invisible. She isn't escaping from thousands of powered people, but that doesn't matter cause again, planet has been nuked from the higher tiers and she didn't make it.

[Archer the Cat]

Gwenpool, she throws other people outside of the comic.

[Rater202]

You and I clearly have a different definition of "God-Tier," but okay.

Okay, does anybody else think that all of these people who can nuke a planet but somehow are't god-tier are actually going to do so, all at once, as their opening move?

And does anyone think that a being who can explicitly survive and regenerate from atomization would be killed by that?

I mean, unless they are literally willing everyone else on the planet below their power level out of existence or have Energizers' power on a planettary scale, Itsy would probably survive the resulting bodily destruction and within the days or weeks it would take the resulting somehow-Not-Gods to kill each other if this is the power level they've got going, Itsy regenerates in full and caps the last guy while he's exhausted and has his guard down.

Assuming that anyone else survived a few hundred planetary wide nukes going off at once.

and I'd argue that busting a planet down to subatomic particles or erasing thousands/millions of people from existence at once is the kind of thing that qualifies you as a God Tier.

Meaning you're the scenario, logically speaking, gives Itsy a much greater chance to win than I was arguing at this point, as you've killed off basically everyone who I conceded could have beaten potentially beate her while mearely incapping Itsy.

Unless of course, other people agree with me that destroying the planet you're fighting on counts as something only a God-Tiered character can do, at which point I stand by my Statement that Itsy could possibly win depending on who fights who and and when they do it.

[HolyDraconus]

So now you are arguing that Itsy is immortal, which WOULD put her at God tier, which, again, means she isn't a contender. So which is it? Is she immortal and banned? Or is she mortal and vaporized? Either way, she isn't a contender for winning.


Unless of course everyone else becomes 1000% dumber and think that the only way to win is some shonen 1 v 1 bs that you keep alluding to.

[Rater202]

So now you are arguing that Itsy is immortal, which WOULD put her at God tier, which, again, means she isn't a contender. So which is it? Is she immortal and banned? Or is she mortal and vaporized? Either way, she isn't a contender for winning.


Unless of course everyone else becomes 1000% dumber and think that the only way to win is some shonen 1 v 1 bs that you keep alluding to.1: Okay, again, it kind of sounds like you're the one moving the goal posts now.

2: Immortal isn't a god-tier power. Immortal just means you can't die.

Nobody ever said banning immortal people.

The OP's only thoughts on what qualifies as God-Tier are "Cosmic Level Threats" excepting the Silver Surfer(Meaning that in a fair fight where everyone is "max," The Carnage Cosmic wins, as I've said before.)

I've only suggested banning Omega Class Mutants, literal Gods, Reality Warpers, people whose power has no limits, and anybody who is a planet wide threat, since those all God Tier going by Marvel logic, as well as anybody who is explicitly stronger than somebody on the above lists.

3: I'm not arguing that she's immortal. I'm arguing that she's canonically survived being atomized by something that is explicitly compared to the core of the sun and has regenerated from that damage at a speed that implies that she'd be back to full in just a couple of days.

If there is still a planet left after a "planet-wide nuke" type effect, Itsy is probably still alive and regenerating.

Unless you want to argue that the Earth and everything on it were rendered down to its subatomic particles by this hypothetical planetary nuke you're insisting on, in which case everyone is dead and the fight is a draw with no winners.

4: You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm trying to argue. I'm not saying "stupid shonen 1 on 1."

I'm saying that a chaotic free for all is going to behave like a chaoitc free for all, with all of the tactics and opurtunities that permits, and that nobody is stupid enough to destroy their own planet as the first move in a chaotic free for all.

[TeChameleon]

I'm saying that a chaotic free for all is going to behave like a chaoitc free for all, with all of the tactics and opurtunities that permits, and that nobody is stupid enough to destroy their own planet as the first move in a chaotic free for all.

... the stupidity of that tactic is remarkably diminished if doing so actually increases your survival chances. For example, anyone who can fly in space (I've lost track of who can and can't in Marvel at this point, and frankly don't care that much), but couldn't survive, say, a Hulk-beatdown, might be wise to remove that pesky atmosphere that's keeping the Hulk alive while he comes for them.

And if it's a true free-for-all... I honestly don't know if there would be anyone much that we could really call a 'winner', since the most likely end-result is them standing alone over the blasted hellscape that once was Earth, assuming even the planet survived. I mean, the number of Marvel supers who can make the planet unfit for human habitation is distressingly high.

... heck, the freaking Power Pack could do it.

Although the most likely eventual winner would be the gestalt-X-Men-and-as-many-others-as-they-could-catch as embodied by Rogue.

[Rater202]

... the stupidity of that tactic is remarkably diminished if doing so actually increases your survival chances. For example, anyone who can fly in space (I've lost track of who can and can't in Marvel at this point, and frankly don't care that much), but couldn't survive, say, a Hulk-beatdown, might be wise to remove that pesky atmosphere that's keeping the Hulk alive while he comes for them.

And if it's a true free-for-all... I honestly don't know if there would be anyone much that we could really call a 'winner', since the most likely end-result is them standing alone over the blasted hellscape that once was Earth, assuming even the planet survived. I mean, the number of Marvel supers who can make the planet unfit for human habitation is distressingly high.

... heck, the freaking Power Pack could do it.

Although the most likely eventual winner would be the gestalt-X-Men-and-as-many-others-as-they-could-catch as embodied by Rogue.I can't think of anyone who could survie in space and survive having a planet totally destroyed aruond them with enough force to destroy all of the various "invincible" and "immortal" Marvel characters and be able to do that themselves who isn't disqualified for being god-tier. And honstly, anybody who can survive that kind of thing can probably survive most things that the other participants could throw at them.

Honestly, I'd cnsider being able to destroy a planet a god-tier power by itself, but for the sake of argument...

[JDMSJR]

One of the problems is that we don't have any clear cut definition of what constitutes victory. If it is to the death, then there are several characters that might not be able to win, but they can not lose. For example, I don't think any of them have the power to kill Juggernaut. I mean the guy was skeletonized by a cosmic level being and never broke stride and was fully regenerated a few seconds later. Psychic characters might be able to temporarily stop him if they get his helmet off, but kill him? Also Mr. Immortal could not take out many people, but can't be killed. Last I heard it was supposed to be cannon that he was going to survive the end of the universe and become the Galactus of the next universe, so we really need to nail down the conditions for victory. Also, as to the Itsy hangs back and finishes off the last one or two left, there are a number of people who she could not finish off no matter how hurt they were...Wonder Man, Sandman, Juggernaut, etc. Many of them are to tough for her to hurt and don't need to eat, drink, breath, etc.

[Rater202]

One of the problems is that we don't have any clear cut definition of what constitutes victory. If it is to the death, then there are several characters that might not be able to win, but they can not lose. For example, I don't think any of them have the power to kill Juggernaut. I mean the guy was skeletonized by a cosmic level being and never broke stride and was fully regenerated a few seconds later. Psychic characters might be able to temporarily stop him if they get his helmet off, but kill him? Also Mr. Immortal could not take out many people, but can't be killed. Last I heard it was supposed to be cannon that he was going to survive the end of the universe and become the Galactus of the next universe, so we really need to nail down the conditions for victory. Also, as to the Itsy hangs back and finishes off the last one or two left, there are a number of people who she could not finish off no matter how hurt they were...Wonder Man, Sandman, Juggernaut, etc. Many of them are to tough for her to hurt and don't need to eat, drink, breath, etc.You're mixing up two of my arguments.

In The proposed scenario where a buunch of people who are somehow not God-Tier nuke the planet, Itsy who can canonically regenerate from atoms would, infering from the speed at which she regenerates, would probably be fully recovered and stronger than ever by the time that there was only one survivor left. Depending on who that was, she could just cap them and be done with it.

In the much more realistic scenario where it's just a bunch of fights between 2 to a dozen individuals with the winners moving on or cutting in on fights in progress(what most people would think when they hear "free for all,") well, Itsy's more manuverable than Spider-Man and twice greets Spidey and Deadpool by coming out of nowhere and (trying) to kill somebody who was present while said person was distracted. She could just not engage in fights and first and go around murdering people who are pre-occupied and this would be perfectly in character.

Jugg's, in all likelyhood, would be one of those people who'd... Look, if anybody is getting pickec up and throw into the sun, it's the Juggernaut, becuase most people know who he is and the threat her pooses. All the people who can take him, if they're fighting smart instead of just fighting, would probably make a point of trying to take him out early.

Assuming that he fights Itsy before this happens, yeah, she'd probably lose, which I'll conceed, but whatever.

In the case of the Sand Man... Well, he's not likely to be the last one left(with all the differant pyrotechnics who could turn him to glass), but he's not invinvible and ha been demonstrated to be vulnerable to toxins(Venom has a posionous bite now. This almost killed the Sand Man.) Itsy can spit acid. Not gonna say she'd win if she fought him, but she has ways of hurting him.

Again, I'm not saying that she wins. I'm saying that she's got a chance.

[TeChameleon]

I can't think of anyone who could survie in space and survive having a planet totally destroyed aruond them with enough force to destroy all of the various "invincible" and "immortal" Marvel characters and be able to do that themselves who isn't disqualified for being god-tier.

You missed part of what I said- it's not the destruction of the planet that kills all the invincible etc. people, it's the lack of oxygen immediately following it. Hulk, for example, can survive planetary destruction (at least as far as I can recall- I have extremely vague memories of the not-so-jolly green giant surfing through space on a chunk of exploded planet..?) but still needs to breathe.

... so I suppose it's not even 'destroy planet' so much as 'strip off atmosphere' in a pinch. But whatever. All that's not terribly germane to my arguments, it's mostly just a side note that I made to point out that 'blow up world you're standing on' isn't always a terrible tactic, depending on what you and/or your opponents can and cannot survive.

And like I said, my vote for most-likely-to-win an all-Marvel slapfight would go to Rogue. And if she managed to grab Jamie Madrox, the Multiple Man, along with Nightcrawler, then it goes from 'probable' for her to 'near certainty', since you'd have a functionally infinite army of her who only needed to touch an opponent to take them out, and could teleport and had superhuman reflexes and agility. Grab a regenerator on top of that, and, well...

[Rater202]

You missed part of what I said- it's not the destruction of the planet that kills all the invincible etc. people, it's the lack of oxygen immediately following it. Hulk, for example, can survive planetary destruction (at least as far as I can recall- I have extremely vague memories of the not-so-jolly green giant surfing through space on a chunk of exploded planet..?) but still needs to breathe.

... so I suppose it's not even 'destroy planet' so much as 'strip off atmosphere' in a pinch. But whatever. All that's not terribly germane to my arguments, it's mostly just a side note that I made to point out that 'blow up world you're standing on' isn't always a terrible tactic, depending on what you and/or your opponents can and cannot survive.

And like I said, my vote for most-likely-to-win an all-Marvel slapfight would go to Rogue. And if she managed to grab Jamie Madrox, the Multiple Man, along with Nightcrawler, then it goes from 'probable' for her to 'near certainty', since you'd have a functionally infinite army of her who only needed to touch an opponent to take them out, and could teleport and had superhuman reflexes and agility. Grab a regenerator on top of that, and, well...
Again, unless we're ignoring the OP's comment of The Silver Surfer being excempted from the no God-Tiers rule, the winner is probably the Carnage Cosmic.

Mostly because you're giving the power to kill thouands at once to someone who is willing to use it.

The lack of oxygen thing doesn't really change my point: How many people could personally strip the Earth of it's atmosphere and survive the lack of an atmosphere and aren't banned for being God-Tier?(I'd argue that such a planet wide effect is automatically God-Tier, but whatevs)

[HolyDraconus]

Again, unless we're ignoring the OP's comment of The Silver Surfer being excempted from the no God-Tiers rule, the winner is probably the Carnage Cosmic.

Mostly because you're giving the power to kill thouands at once to someone who is willing to use it.

The lack of oxygen thing doesn't really change my point: How many people could personally strip the Earth of it's atmosphere and survive the lack of an atmosphere and aren't banned for being God-Tier?(I'd argue that such a planet wide effect is automatically God-Tier, but whatevs)

War Machine, to name a non god tier example. Hulk and his family have proven that they can hold their breaths for freaking hours.

[Rater202]

War Machine, to name a non god tier example. Hulk and his family have proven that they can hold their breaths for freaking hours.

...Wasn't the war machine armor, despite is gun loaded looks, designed to be less lethal than the normal Iron Man armors?

Yeah, I'm gonna need a citation on that being a planet buster or atmosphere destroyer.

Likewise on the Hulks, other than the Infinity strong Greenscar who is probably God-Tier, being capable of stripping the atmosphere or destroying a planet?

Since I wasn't asking for people who could survive that but people who could do it and survive.

[TeChameleon]

... you have a frustratingly arbitrary system for determining 'god tier', Rater.

Quite frankly, I read the OPs comment on that being more 'everybody below Skyfather level is good to go', not just 'whoever is higher than whatever random arbitrary power level is excluded'. If it matters, my personal rating system for the upper tiers is 'roughly equivalent power levels to the Hulk'- that is, they've gotten into a slapfight with old Jade Jaws at some point and caused massive property destruction, but neither of them died. So Hercules, Thor, the Sentry, etc. are all okay, but Zeus, as an example who basically just humiliated the Hulk and booted him off Olympus, is not.

Also, your 'Carnage Cosmic wins' bit assumes that the Silver Surfer will be a complete putz about letting Carnage glomp him and eat his brains, which seems a trifle out of character for the surfing Oscar statue.

Also, non-god-tiers who can strip the atmosphere are a bit more common than you seem to think- there are a number of (non-Omega, just to pre-empt that particular complaint) mutants that could do it (Sunfire, Storm), the Human Torch could do it, Reed Richards could probably pull something out of his rubbery backside that could do it without any trouble... Sentry could probably do it too, for that matter, given his rather ill-defined powerset- well, ill-defined aside from 'lots'.

For that matter, there are a handful of crazy-strong oddball powerhouses rattling around as kind of D-List characters in the Marvel Universe- any of the Eternals could take it, especially Sersi (not because she's massively more powerful or anything, she just takes more of an interest in the day-to-day affairs of mankind... also because she's ruthless as all get-out, given that at least one set of her enemies ended up as a tasteful dinette set, since they attacked her while she was furnishing her loft...), and there are the strange mutants running around, like Exodus or the Alphas, and Morgaine LeFay on the mystical end of things, Starhawk (assuming s/he somehow ended up in the present-day) has borderline-but-not-quite cosmic-level powers... there are some stupidly powerful characters just wandering around.

[HolyDraconus]

...Wasn't the war machine armor, despite is gun loaded looks, designed to be less lethal than the normal Iron Man armors?

Yeah, I'm gonna need a citation on that being a planet buster or atmosphere destroyer.

Likewise on the Hulks, other than the Infinity strong Greenscar who is probably God-Tier, being capable of stripping the atmosphere or destroying a planet?

Since I wasn't asking for people who could survive that but people who could do it and survive.

I meant survive. Sorry for the confusion

[Rater202]

... you have a frustratingly arbitrary system for determining 'god tier', Rater.I explained what I consider God-Tier: Poeple whose personal power can affect a planet wide area, most Omega Class Mutants, Reality Warpers, People with limitless or Infinite Power(I specifically cited Sentry and Green Scar), and anybody who is explicitly more powerful than someone who qualifies for the other list(Doctor Strange is explcictly the most powerful Sorcerer on Earth, which makes him srtronger than the Scarle Witch, whose Sorcery can warp reality ona Universal Scale, thus I consider him God-Tier... Even ignoring that his power is "do anything, unless the plot says he can't")

So honestly, by my standards I'd consider anybody who could strip the atmosphere god-tier and survive it, I'm just going for the sake of argument at this point becuase it's easier than having to deal with acusations of moving the goal posts.


Also, your 'Carnage Cosmic wins' bit assumes that the Silver Surfer will be a complete putz about letting Carnage glomp him and eat his brains, which seems a trifle out of character for the surfing Oscar statue.Counter-Argument: In the original, main universe Storyline the Carnage Cosmic apeared in, The Carnage Symbiote completly overwhelmed and Dominated The Surfer's mind and thus had full run of the Surfer's powers personally.

The Carnage Cosmic wasn't defeated. The Surfer didn't forcibly separate from the symbiote with an effort of will, it wasn't forced to flee from him by an attack of sound or fire. It left him of it's own free will becuase Cletus Kassady was dying and it wanted to save the life of it's one true host.

In "What If: The Carnage Cosmic Fought the Avengers, the Surfer, after an extended period of time, worked up enough willpower to, not force the symbiote from him or control it, but to fly them both into the sun becuase he couldn't control the symbiote.

What The Surfer wants or feels isn't a factor.
Also, non-god-tiers who can strip the atmosphere are a bit more common than you seem to think- there are a number of (non-Omega, just to pre-empt that particular complaint) mutants that could do it (Sunfire, Storm), the Human Torch could do it, Reed Richards could probably pull something out of his rubbery backside that could do it without any trouble... Sentry could probably do it too, for that matter, given his rather ill-defined powerset- well, ill-defined aside from 'lots'.

How many of them can survive in space or on a planet without air?

Becuase I'm not asking who can do it. I'm asking who can do it and not dying from doing it.

Becuase, as I said, destroying the planet you're on is a stupid opening move becuase 90% of the time it's gonna kill you too.

[HolyDraconus]

I wouldn't cite carnage cosmic as the be all. For one, on merger it looked like surfer was nerfed. For another, it was actually wounded by FireStar, someone that surfer didn't have problems with in full power. Just saying.

[TeChameleon]

Also, if you read what I said a little more carefully, I was questioning why the Surfer, especially in 'everyone trying to kill everyone else' mode, would allow Carnage to get anywhere near his shiny metal ***.

And I no longer care about the 'planet destroying is stupid' argument, as you've already agreed with me whether you realize it or not- basically I commented that there was a small percentage of the time that it would be a preferable option to whatever would happen should you not destroy the planet, which you appear to agree with, based on your 'destroying the planet is stupid 90% of the time' comment- it was the 10% of the time I was talking about to start with.

And your system for determining 'god tier' is still frustratingly arbitrary, as it bumps characters like Storm, the Human Torch, Black Bolt, and Warlock (er, the techno-organic one that hung out with Doug Ramsey, that is) to god-tier, as all of them are capable of planetary-level effects, but... well, they're all quite powerful in their own right, but none of them are exactly omnipotent, unstoppable deities (Storm notwithstanding on the deity bit, anyhow).

And I still maintain that in the given parameters, allowing for her grabbing the right two or three people (who she would normally have access to anyways- namely, Nightcrawler, Multiple Man, and maybe one of the stronger telepaths to help deal with the whole "People in mah haid!!!!" thing), Rogue would take this at a walk, especially since, if we're going with 'strongest non-cosmically-empowered state', she'd start off with Wonder Man's full, fairly potent, powerset.

[Rater202]

Also, if you read what I said a little more carefully, I was questioning why the Surfer, especially in 'everyone trying to kill everyone else' mode, would allow Carnage to get anywhere near his shiny metal ***.HolyDraconus commented that Itsy Bitsy lost becuase everyone else at their "Max" state would be stronger.

AoA Blob being cited as "Max" blob.

If the strongest version of a character is the "Max" version, then Carnage Cosmic is the Strongest Carnage.

Since Holy Draconus was also arguing on the basis that all universes are in play, there's probably a Universe where the Surfer failed to commit suicide, or failing that the Carnage Cosmic could have been taken from the universe of that What If prior to the Surfer gaining enough control to do so.

[HolyDraconus]

HolyDraconus commented that Itsy Bitsy lost becuase everyone else at their "Max" state would be stronger.

AoA Blob being cited as "Max" blob.

If the strongest version of a character is the "Max" version, then Carnage Cosmic is the Strongest Carnage.

Since Holy Draconus was also arguing on the basis that all universes are in play, there's probably a Universe where the Surfer failed to commit suicide, or failing that the Carnage Cosmic could have been taken from the universe of that What If prior to the Surfer gaining enough control to do so.

If you're gonna quote me, quote it right or not at all. I didn't say AOA Blob was the strongest incarnation of him, but I did say that he was NOT an alternate universe version of Blob, but a different TIMELINE. Nor did I say ANYTHING about all universe's in play. Nor did I say everyone. Get it right man (or woman or whatever is correct). And Itsy WILL lose. Not might. Not maybe. WILL. To have a chance means to be able to Win. Itsy can not win. That was what I was arguing. You went off on some tangent about trying to gank people in a free for all setting, then when people stooped down to your level and put her in her supposedly winnable conditions of one on one, argued that she was being forced to run a gauntlet! Hell, everyone gave you the fact that she may be a powerful regen, though we have no idea if it's true( until she pops up in the main Spidey or dead pool series she's just a what if more or less). People even gave you your idea list of what is classified as god tiered. And she still will lose. That will not change. She cant beat the ones that matter in this contest. Period. No chance. None. And since she cannot beat them, then she has no chance of winning. Period. None.

[Rater202]

NOT an alternate universe version of Blob, but a different TIMELINE.

You are aware that those are the same thing, right? Alternate Timelines are a kind of Alternate Universe.

Especially in MArvel.

The Main Marvel Timeline is Earth 216. Age of Apocolypse is Earth 295. Officially, they are different universes.

And if we're permitted to use Alternate Versions of one character, then that opens up all version of every character. Which Means that the Carnage Cosmic if fair game, since the Silver Surfer is excepted from the God Tier rule and there is at least one reality where the Carnage symbiont didn't return to Kasady.

I'm not even arguing that Itsy will win anymore. My argument is that she could potentially win depending on how the fights go. I have conceced when people mention individuals who could actually beat her--But she doesn't have to beat them, if they beat each other or are taken out by someone else or just leave themselves vulnerable to a bullet in the brain.

(She can still kill Blob by shooting him through his vulnerable eyes or giving him a traumatic brain injury(Though I misunderstood how he got the concussion) since those are his known weaknesses. Or maybe spitting acid on him, we don't know what that does to people who aren't high end regenerators.)

[TeChameleon]

Wait, what.

The whole bit with the Carnage Cosmic nonsense treated the Surfer flying into the sun as suicide..? Wow, that writer does not know their Marvel history- the Silver Surfer made a regular habit of flying through suns just because he could in his own book(s).

[HolyDraconus]

Marvel has a multiverse so no,
No they are not the same.

I'm not even arguing that Itsy will win anymore. My argument is that she could potentially win

Full stop. At this point I am certain you are just trolling cause there is no way you can keep going on your argument with this. I refuse to believe that you are anything less than a highly intelligent individual, but for my own sanity I will keep it real simple.

She can't win. YOU know this. I know this. Everyone else knows this. So let it go there. You've admit she can't win. So understand that to have a CHANCE of winning, she HAS to be capable of winning. You know she doesn't have it in this setting. So by basic math, logic, whatever, she has no chance. Cause she can't win. Own it. It's fine. I'm not saying she's a bad character concept. I'm saying she has no chance in Hell in winning this fight in the parameters spelled out in the OP.

[HolyDraconus]

Wait, what.

The whole bit with the Carnage Cosmic nonsense treated the Surfer flying into the sun as suicide..? Wow, that writer does not know their Marvel history- the Silver Surfer made a regular habit of flying through suns just because he could in his own book(s).

As for that. Like I said earlier in thread. Surfer was nerfed. Fusing with Carnage made him weaker. FireStar actually was a threat to him.

[Rater202]

Wait, what.

The whole bit with the Carnage Cosmic nonsense treated the Surfer flying into the sun as suicide..? Wow, that writer does not know their Marvel history- the Silver Surfer made a regular habit of flying through suns just because he could in his own book(s).

Yep.

Granted, it's possible that the Surfer was deliberately not using whatever effect of the Power Cosmic kept suns from killing him.