[3.5] Build Help for Incarnate or Totemist

[Nautilust]

I have 2 character Ideas. One I think is going to be alot easier than the other.

I want to play an Azurin Incarnate X/Cleric X/Sapphire Heirarch X. I know this is a tricky build and probably isn't the most optimized but it just looks really interesting to me.. Ability Scores will be STR 14/DEX 10/CON 15/WIS 17/INT 10/CHA 12 (Array given by GM plus 1 ability score increase)

Or a Duskling Totemist X/Rogue X/Umbral Disciple X This is probably going to be alot easier to build. I'm not juggling soulmelds and divine casting. Ability Scores will be STR 10/DEX 16/CON 16/WIS 10/INT 14/CHA 12 (Same as before array given by GM plus one ability score increase and changes from race)

I need help deciding what levels of each class to take, and feats to take.

[Zweisteine]

I don't have time to offer much help, but of those two, you absolutely want to play the Incarnate.

Azurin is a great race (bonus feat!), and more importantly, 12 Constitution is far too little for any soulbinder.

Unless you can switch ability scores around. Remember, soulbinding is Constitution-based.

And here are guides for the Totemist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?287304-danzibr-s-Totemist-Handbook) and Incarnate (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=580.0).

[Nautilust]

Thanks for the note about Constitution, and I forgot to add racial adjustments. I fixed those two things.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The default entry for Sapphire Hierarch is probably Incarnate 2/Cleric 3 with a +1 essentia race-- that gets you everything in a hurry. There's probably some early entry stuff you can pull... Divine Metamagic+Heighten Spell would let you get in with Cleric 1/Incarnate 2; if you take a flaw for Shape Soulmeld and the Incarnum Domain for Incarnum Spellcasting as a bonus feat, then you can hop in as quick as Cleric 1/Incarnate 1. In either case, stick with Hierarch for 10 levels then finish off with more Cleric casting, I think.

Speaking personally, I love Totemists approximately all the much, and Totemist/Rogue is a great combo. The problem with Umbral Disciple is that it doesn't progress binds, though... with that said, I'd probably go Rogue 1/Totemist 5/Umbral Disicple 3, then more Totemist-- it's not the quickest entry, but it does give you more binds. You'll probably want to spend feats on Open Chakra and Craven.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Incarnate 3 does have that tasy +1 essentia capacity... I'd be tempted to go for incarnate 3/cleric 3, if I were playing a lower-powered game.

[Big Fau]

Incarnate 3 does have that tasy +1 essentia capacity... I'd be tempted to go for incarnate 3/cleric 3, if I were playing a lower-powered game.

Sapphire Hierarch is really good though. It and Soulcaster are the most effective PrCs in MoI.

@OP: I would go with the build that has 115 Con. ;P

[Nautilust]

:D It's just 15 Con.

[Nautilust]

When taking Divine Metamagic do you also have to take the Metamagic Feat you are applying it to?

[Nifft]

When taking Divine Metamagic do you also have to take the Metamagic Feat you are applying it to?

Yes.


As an aside, the Web Enhancement class Soul Manifester (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) is great.

[Grod_The_Giant]

When taking Divine Metamagic do you also have to take the Metamagic Feat you are applying it to?
You have to have a metamagic feat when you take DMM, yeah. Though looking more carefully, I'm not 100% on the RAW of DMM+Heighten. Earth Spell works pretty unequivocally, tho-- Take Earth Sense and Heighten Spell at 1st, and Earth Spell at 3rd. Heighten a zero-level spell to 1st, and Earth Spell bumps it up to 2nd.

[Nautilust]

So in order to get Persistant Spell I'd have to buy Extend and Persistant then Divine Metamagic

[Nifft]

So in order to get Persistant Spell I'd have to buy Extend and Persistant then Divine Metamagic

Also, you as a player might need to purchase Dodge Thrown Books.

It's much safer to DMM: Extend or DMM: Quicken.

[Grod_The_Giant]

So in order to get Persistant Spell I'd have to buy Extend and Persistant then Divine Metamagic
Correct. You can get Extend Spell from the Planning Domain, tho, if you so desire (and/or Extra Turning from Undeath).

[Komatik]

Also, you as a player might need to purchase Dodge Thrown Books.

This is a very useful feat to have in general, though.

[Nautilust]

However, in order to use Persistent Spell, You use up a slot 6 levels higher? Maybe, I should wait to take that feat combination?

Hang On, Divine Metamagic says the spell slot is unchanged. But it uses up Turn attempts. So how many turn attempts would that take for Divine Favor . . . 6? I only have 4.

So taking the Planning Domain gives Extended, and Undeath Domain gives Extra Turning. That would free up a feat and give me 8 turning attempts. What are some deities that provide those two Domains and count as Lawful Neutral. Or can i eschew a deity?

[Nautilust]

As far as gear goes what should I buy? I was thinking a set of Full Plate and a Greatsword . . . Maybe a wand of cure light wounds, or some potions of cure light wounds or both? Something to increase my AC? Then like candles and a holy symbol and other basic gear?

It's been a while since i've done this.

[Grod_The_Giant]

However, in order to use Persistent Spell, You use up a slot 6 levels higher? Maybe, I should wait to take that feat combination?

Hang On, Divine Metamagic says the spell slot is unchanged. But it uses up Turn attempts. So how many turn attempts would that take for Divine Favor . . . 6? I only have 4.

So taking the Planning Domain gives Extended, and Undeath Domain gives Extra Turning. That would free up a feat and give me 8 turning attempts. What are some deities that provide those two Domains and count as Lawful Neutral. Or can i eschew a deity?
You can always be a Cleric of a Cause. I can't find a deity that has both of those domains, but it makes sense for someone like Vecna or Wee Jas. After that, a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MiC) gets you another three easily for 1000gp; Nightsticks (LM) get you for each for 7500gp. That's 14+Cha attempts right there; getting up to +4 Cha shouldn't be that hard with an item to boost it for 3 Persisted spells/day. If you Extend them on top of that, they'll last 48 hours and you can alternate days to have 6 spells up all the time.

And, y'know, since you're going with a meldshaping build, you can grab Midnight Metamagic, which is just disgustingly good. At 6th level, you can effectively reduce the level cost of all your metamagic feats by 2.

EDIT: Though ultimately it's not necessary to go that far or that hard down the Persist-o-mancy road, methinks. Incarnate will get you a bunch of nice defensive buffs all by itself, and you don't want to overshadow the rest of your party. For gear... plate mail, yeah. A nice weapon, yeah, though Clerics and Incarnates don't have martial weapon proficiency. A Wand of Lesser Vigor (CDiv/SpC) is better for party-healing, since it's a guaranteed 11hp each time you cast it.

[ExLibrisMortis]

And, y'know, since you're going with a meldshaping build, you can grab Midnight Metamagic, which is just disgustingly good. At 6th level, you can effectively reduce the level cost of all your metamagic feats by 2.
If Midnight Metamagic worked like Midnight Augmentation, that is how it would work. Sadly, it does not work like Midnight Augmentation. Midnight Metamagic requires you to invest essentia equal to the metamagic feat's level increase, for every single spell and feat separately, and your total investment can't be greater than your essentia capacity. Each investment only works for the next casting of the spell it is invested in.


For example, you could invest 1 point of essentia to enlarge a spell (as Enlarge Spell) and 2 points of essentia to empower a spell (as Empower Spell), as long as you had at least 3 points of essentia to invest, had an essentia capacity (see Table 2–1: Essentia Capacity) of 3 or greater, and knew both the Empower Spell and Enlarge Spell feats.

Once essentia is invested in a spell, it remains invested until the spell is cast, at which point the essentia returns to your essentia pool.

It's a pretty horrible way to Persist, because--leaving aside other reducers--you need to hit epic levels to even persist one spell, and an additional 6 essentia capacity for each additional spell. Cheap metamagic feats (Empower with Practical Metamagic) are better, but you still just get "your next X castings of Y are empowered", with X your essentia capacity and Y a spell.

[Grod_The_Giant]

If Midnight Metamagic worked like Midnight Augmentation, that is how it would work. Sadly, it does not work like Midnight Augmentation. Midnight Metamagic requires you to invest essentia equal to the metamagic feat's level increase, for every single spell and feat separately, and your total investment can't be greater than your essentia capacity. Each investment only works for the next casting of the spell it is invested in.
Whoops, you're right.


It's a pretty horrible way to Persist, because--leaving aside other reducers--you need to hit epic levels to even persist one spell, and an additional 6 essentia capacity for each additional spell. Cheap metamagic feats (Empower with Practical Metamagic) are better, but you still just get "your next X castings of Y are empowered", with X your essentia capacity and Y a spell.
Why would you need more capacity for additional spells? The points come back once you cast the spell, and you can just re-invest them to cast it again.

[Nautilust]

I forgot neither class get's martial weapons, looks like i'm using a Heavy Mace.
Since i'm using a one handed weapon i guess i should pick up a Shield

[ExLibrisMortis]

Why would you need more capacity for additional spells? The points come back once you cast the spell, and you can just re-invest them to cast it again.
Almost all incarnum feats have the following as the first line:

Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat

I suppose you could use Psicarnum Infusion to Persist spells by expending focus, which would make Midnight Metamagic incredibly effective for any build with essentia capacity equal to its Persist cost. You'd need a string of feats and requirements to make it work, though: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Midnight Metamagic, Psycarnum Infusion, Improved Essentia Capacity, Easy/Practical Metamagic (Persist), must have racial psionic ability or Wild Talent, must have dragonblood subtype*, must have 5 essentia and 20 Constitution, must be level 18.

In a build, it would look something like:
azurin cleric 3/incarnate 2/sapphire hierarch 10/cleric +3.
Psycarnum Infusion1
Wild Talentazurin
Extend SpellPlanning
Midnight Metamagicflaw
Persistent Spellflaw
Improved Essentia Capacity3
Easy Metamagic (Persist)6
[metamagic]9
[metamagic]12
[metamagic]15
[metamagic]18

If you make sure you have at least 20 Constitution at level 18, you have free metamagic (on pretty much anything) from that level onwards.




*If not using Dragon Magazine for Easy Metamagic.

[Nautilust]

That's not a bad build but I don't think my GM is allowing flaws and i'm fine with my progression the way it is cause I want to open a few of my chakras and maybe get some extra binding.

[ExLibrisMortis]

That's not a bad build but I don't think my GM is allowing flaws and i'm fine with my progression the way it is cause I want to open a few of my chakras and maybe get some extra binding.
Oh, that wasn't a suggestion to you, just an example for Grod. It's a build designed around a single trick, and although it works earlier (you can freely Empower stuff at level 3, for example, if you modify the order a bit), it doesn't truly work until level 18.

If you wanted to play it from low levels up to 18, and without flaws, you'd move some feats around. Persistent Spell and Easy Metamagic (Persist) go to level 15 and 18, respectively. Midnight Metamagic and Improved Essentia Capacity* go to level 3 and 9, respectively. You could use your level 6 and 12 slots for additional metamagic feats; I'd suggest Empower at 6 and maybe Twin at level 12?


*You qualify for IEC at level 6, but you don't have any metamagic feats that require it. Your only metamagic feat at that level is Extend Spell, which is covered by your essentia capacity of 2.

[Nautilust]

Shoot, In order to be a Sapphire Heirarch I have to have access to the Law Domain. Which I think means I have to take it?
So I guess I could get rid of the Undeath domain, my GM was ify on it anyways. And replace that with the Law Domain, and then i'll have to use my left over feat to buy Extra Turning.