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View Full Version : Playground, can you advise me on pulling off a surprise?



WarKitty
2017-09-30, 07:55 AM
Usual disclaimer: my players, shoo!

So the background here is that I want to do a nice after-death planar romp (3.PF). This, however, requires a TPK to occur. I don't plan on making the fight completely impossible, just very very very hard (I can always try again later). Just fiating everyone dead seems cheap, and it will really work better with a nice dramatic plot-based loss.

But what I'm worried about is if the battle becomes something they can't win, my players are going to stop the game and say "this is too hard, can we change things up so this doesn't end in a TPK." Especially since I would have to dimensional anchor the place to keep them from teleporting out, which is also going to get a bit of a cry of foul. I don't want it to be too cheap, but I think the planar adventures will be a nice surprise and it wouldn't be near as much fun if they knew what was coming. But again, I'm worried my players will stop or give up when they see the battle going badly, and it really doesn't work unless I get all of them.

Lalliman
2017-09-30, 09:22 AM
Unfortunately, the best advice I can give is: Just don't do it.

Presenting your players with unexpected events is good. Changing the premise of the campaign unannounced is not. The players have probably created their characters with personal ties and goals on the mortal plane. Forcibly killing them to have a planar afterlife adventure renders those irrelevant and unobtainable. I expect that the players will feel cheated, no matter how well-executed the TPK scene is.

You can resurrect the players after a while and resume the normal campaign, but this still seems problematic. The longer they spend not playing the game they signed up for, the more likely they are to feel cheated. And if this subplot is over in one session, why bother with all the effort?

My rule for plot twists is to ask yourself: If the players knew about this twist in advance, would they have made different characters? If the answer is yes, you should either provide solid hints on where the campaign is going beforehand, or just not do it.

Of course, your mileage on this may vary, because I don't know your group. But I would strongly disadvise against ever doing this.

Altair_the_Vexed
2017-09-30, 11:34 AM
Unfortunately, the best advice I can give is: Just don't do it.

Presenting your players with unexpected events is good. Changing the premise of the campaign unannounced is not. The players have probably created their characters with personal ties and goals on the mortal plane. Forcibly killing them to have a planar afterlife adventure renders those irrelevant and unobtainable. I expect that the players will feel cheated, no matter how well-executed the TPK scene is.

You can resurrect the players after a while and resume the normal campaign, but this still seems problematic. The longer they spend not playing the game they signed up for, the more likely they are to feel cheated. And if this subplot is over in one session, why bother with all the effort?

My rule for plot twists is to ask yourself: If the players knew about this twist in advance, would they have made different characters? If the answer is yes, you should either provide solid hints on where the campaign is going beforehand, or just not do it.

Of course, your mileage on this may vary, because I don't know your group. But I would strongly disadvise against ever doing this.

+1!

When I wanted to start a series of adventures with the PCs captured as galley slaves on a pirate ship, I told them. We then RP'd through their capture as flashbacks.

I suggest you try that - tell them up front this is an afterlife game setting, and the first encounter is a flashback to their TPK.

Aneurin
2017-09-30, 11:50 AM
Usual disclaimer: my players, shoo!

So the background here is that I want to do a nice after-death planar romp (3.PF). This, however, requires a TPK to occur. I don't plan on making the fight completely impossible, just very very very hard (I can always try again later). Just fiating everyone dead seems cheap, and it will really work better with a nice dramatic plot-based loss.

But what I'm worried about is if the battle becomes something they can't win, my players are going to stop the game and say "this is too hard, can we change things up so this doesn't end in a TPK." Especially since I would have to dimensional anchor the place to keep them from teleporting out, which is also going to get a bit of a cry of foul. I don't want it to be too cheap, but I think the planar adventures will be a nice surprise and it wouldn't be near as much fun if they knew what was coming. But again, I'm worried my players will stop or give up when they see the battle going badly, and it really doesn't work unless I get all of them.

I'm going to echo the others here and say that doing this without the group's agreement in advance before hand could very easily create problems in the gaming group.

But that's not what you asked, and, frankly, if you're absolutely certain your group will approve and enjoy the change this is probably the way to do it: If they start to object, or complain, or just want to stop the encounter because they think they're going to lose... tell them "don't worry, I have a plan for if you don't win". Or "just roll with it, things will make more sense soon". Make it clear that there is a plan, even if you're not telling them what it is.

If that doesn't help... perhaps this wasn't the best idea to begin with. Especially in 3.PF-style heroic fantasy, where the players are expecting to kick butt and take names, rather than engage in life-or-death struggles.

Alternatively, save this idea for when a naturally occuring TPK, er, occurs. This is your back-up for if you or they really screw up.

Pleh
2017-09-30, 11:59 AM
Also, death is not the only way for heroes to reach the afterlife. Planar Shift should do the trick.

Anymage
2017-09-30, 12:47 PM
If they're high enough level that you need to trap them in a dimensional anchor, you pretty much just need to fiat it. Although if you do, you'll need a very good plot thread to pop up as soon as their petitioners wake up, or else they'll just have their spirits rez themselves and go back to whatever they were doing.

Inflicting a loss-by-fiat isn't an absolutely horrible thing in the right situations, so long as players come to with full agency. (For contrast, the classic loss by fiat involves the party getting captured and being stripped of their gear. Waking up naked and in chains severely limits the player options and largely forces them onto some very tight rails.) Fiat-killing lowbies to send them to an outer plane, waking up unfettered and without all their gear, is one thing. High level characters, though, tend to have more impressive experiences than simply dying. Whether having the enemy plane shift the whole temple they're in to hell, or having some minor celestials ask them to get involved in issues of planar importance, you want something more spectacular than just having them all fail their saves vs. death.

ATHATH
2017-09-30, 05:14 PM
Just have the campaign start after they are already dead.

Hopeless Boss Fights ([insert link to tvtropes here]) tend to not work very well in tabletop RPGs.

Nifft
2017-09-30, 06:05 PM
I'd ask my players flat-out to help write the scene whereby they lost to the BBEG and got TPK'd, talk about what secrets their characters learned which would lead to the BBEG's eventual defeat, and at least some of them would write up how they all died, taking the input from the others.

Then start the next session with a walk through of the after-death mechanics.

Then roll for initiative.

WarKitty
2017-09-30, 07:43 PM
Unfortunately, the best advice I can give is: Just don't do it.

Presenting your players with unexpected events is good. Changing the premise of the campaign unannounced is not. The players have probably created their characters with personal ties and goals on the mortal plane. Forcibly killing them to have a planar afterlife adventure renders those irrelevant and unobtainable. I expect that the players will feel cheated, no matter how well-executed the TPK scene is.

You can resurrect the players after a while and resume the normal campaign, but this still seems problematic. The longer they spend not playing the game they signed up for, the more likely they are to feel cheated. And if this subplot is over in one session, why bother with all the effort?

My rule for plot twists is to ask yourself: If the players knew about this twist in advance, would they have made different characters? If the answer is yes, you should either provide solid hints on where the campaign is going beforehand, or just not do it.

Of course, your mileage on this may vary, because I don't know your group. But I would strongly disadvise against ever doing this.

That I don't think would be an issue. One thing to keep in mind is this is a genuine 1-20 game, so there are lots and lots of shifts in scenery and tone that are happening over the course of the game. So I've already herded these PC's all the way from level 1 to, currently, level 9, over the course of several years of gameplay. I think you can just get away with more scene shifts in that sort of game, it's just expected that you're going to be running around lots and lots of places.

Honestly I never got how games have this sort of premise anyway. I've never run a game that was "a city campaign" or "a rural campaign" or "a dungeon crawl." In any game I run that's not a one-shot, you can expect to be changing setting multiple times during the game - it never really occurred to me until I started reading this forum that that wasn't what everyone expected.

ATHATH
2017-09-30, 08:26 PM
That I don't think would be an issue. One thing to keep in mind is this is a genuine 1-20 game, so there are lots and lots of shifts in scenery and tone that are happening over the course of the game. So I've already herded these PC's all the way from level 1 to, currently, level 9, over the course of several years of gameplay. I think you can just get away with more scene shifts in that sort of game, it's just expected that you're going to be running around lots and lots of places.

Honestly I never got how games have this sort of premise anyway. I've never run a game that was "a city campaign" or "a rural campaign" or "a dungeon crawl." In any game I run that's not a one-shot, you can expect to be changing setting multiple times during the game - it never really occurred to me until I started reading this forum that that wasn't what everyone expected.
Wait, you're (intentionally) killing off characters that your players have been playing with for years?

Get their permission first. Then set up a dungeon with rapidly-increasing difficulty, tell them that they're meant to die in it, then ask them to try to make it as far into the dungeon as they can (perhaps with rewards for certain milestones) to still make the game/combat exciting.

Florian
2017-09-30, 08:39 PM
Usual disclaimer: my players, shoo!

So the background here is that I want to do a nice after-death planar romp (3.PF). This, however, requires a TPK to occur. I don't plan on making the fight completely impossible, just very very very hard (I can always try again later). Just fiating everyone dead seems cheap, and it will really work better with a nice dramatic plot-based loss.

But what I'm worried about is if the battle becomes something they can't win, my players are going to stop the game and say "this is too hard, can we change things up so this doesn't end in a TPK." Especially since I would have to dimensional anchor the place to keep them from teleporting out, which is also going to get a bit of a cry of foul. I don't want it to be too cheap, but I think the planar adventures will be a nice surprise and it wouldn't be near as much fun if they knew what was coming. But again, I'm worried my players will stop or give up when they see the battle going badly, and it really doesn't work unless I get all of them.

Not a good idea. This being D&D, you´d have to use overwhelming force to kill them in one go, your players will mostly cry "foul!" at that. It´s probably better to get the consent of your players beforehand that they will be sent into a deathtrap dungeon, Cube-style, and die along the way because there´s an "after death session" planned.

WarKitty
2017-09-30, 08:46 PM
Wait, you're (intentionally) killing off characters that your players have been playing with for years?

I mean, at this point, this isn't "killed off for real". This is "killed off, but you get to keep all your stuff with you in the afterlife while you quest to get back to your body." You're still playing essentially the same character, just one on an enforced vacation from the material plane.


Not a good idea. This being D&D, you´d have to use overwhelming force to kill them in one go, your players will mostly cry "foul!" at that. It´s probably better to get the consent of your players beforehand that they will be sent into a deathtrap dungeon, Cube-style, and die along the way because there´s an "after death session" planned.

The thing is, I know at least some of my players have also complained about knowing plot twists in advance and how it's not fun anymore.

Pleh
2017-09-30, 09:23 PM
I mean, at this point, this isn't "killed off for real". This is "killed off, but you get to keep all your stuff with you in the afterlife while you quest to get back to your body." You're still playing essentially the same character, just one on an enforced vacation from the material plane.

Yeah, this definitely feels like it might be a better to just send them through a portal.

Florian
2017-09-30, 09:25 PM
The thing is, I know at least some of my players have also complained about knowing plot twists in advance and how it's not fun anymore.

We´re talking about very heavy railroading and trying to force a predetermined outcome here, else you can´t advance to the "life after death" part of your romp. It´s less fun to actually see behind the illusion, that you´re trying to create, doubting the value of every achievement you had in the game, then simply be asked to "buy in" the planned story arc.

WarKitty
2017-09-30, 10:33 PM
We´re talking about very heavy railroading and trying to force a predetermined outcome here, else you can´t advance to the "life after death" part of your romp. It´s less fun to actually see behind the illusion, that you´re trying to create, doubting the value of every achievement you had in the game, then simply be asked to "buy in" the planned story arc.

Hm, talking to a friend who actually knows the players - doing a quick "roll a save, you all pass out and wake up..." at the very beginning of combat might be safer. It's still forcing an outcome, but it's quick enough to be done in a way that it's obviously the D&D version of a cutscene. Overpowered monster does something, everyone crumples, next thing you know you're looking down at your body and there's this weird lava guy who wasn't there before talking to you.

I know them well enough to know they won't be upset once they get there, it's just a matter of them getting there.

Edit: I should also add that they can probably figure out a way to res themselves fairly fast if they want to. That I can deal with via plain old bait - if you go along with my adventure I'll give you some nice artifacts to play with and I'll let you do weird things with time so you can pop back up at the start of the battle.

Segev
2017-10-01, 09:08 PM
I strongly suggest going with plane shift or just planar portals as the means to get to the outer planes/afterlives. Maybe do it as a quest to "recover" a fallen friend if one dies in combat. That way, you can have lethal combats and have some of the PCs die, and others escape, then present the escapees the option to pull an Orpheus to rescue their friends by going to the outer planes to find them. Meanwhile, the friends wake up in a mysterious place and have to figure out that, yes, they are dead.

Done right, you could have a split party for a while with the dead PCs not sure what's going on and the live ones only aware something's amiss, hints their friends aren't dead...but then discovering they are. And at that point both groups should realize what's up, and the living PCs have to travel to meet the dead ones, then take the "long way" along your planar romp in the quest to recover the dead ones' lives.

WarKitty
2017-10-01, 09:56 PM
I strongly suggest going with plane shift or just planar portals as the means to get to the outer planes/afterlives. Maybe do it as a quest to "recover" a fallen friend if one dies in combat. That way, you can have lethal combats and have some of the PCs die, and others escape, then present the escapees the option to pull an Orpheus to rescue their friends by going to the outer planes to find them. Meanwhile, the friends wake up in a mysterious place and have to figure out that, yes, they are dead.

Done right, you could have a split party for a while with the dead PCs not sure what's going on and the live ones only aware something's amiss, hints their friends aren't dead...but then discovering they are. And at that point both groups should realize what's up, and the living PCs have to travel to meet the dead ones, then take the "long way" along your planar romp in the quest to recover the dead ones' lives.

The thing with plane shift or planar portals is there's 100% no reason for the PC's to not just...plane shift back. Or if a friend dies, there's no reason to not just raise him. This is a high enough level party that they can cast both. I'm not a fan of splitting the party because there's no real good way to do it that doesn't leave people sitting on their hands a lot. I'd have to fiat even more to do that.

Segev
2017-10-01, 10:48 PM
The thing with plane shift or planar portals is there's 100% no reason for the PC's to not just...plane shift back. Or if a friend dies, there's no reason to not just raise him. This is a high enough level party that they can cast both. I'm not a fan of splitting the party because there's no real good way to do it that doesn't leave people sitting on their hands a lot. I'd have to fiat even more to do that.

What is the best plane shifting magic at their disposal? Plane shift, itself, comes with a built-in restriction: the material of the fork that makes up the material component. If they plane shift to a destination plane, they may not have what they need to get to the Prime with a single casting. That can make for a quest.

Ultimately, if they CAN plane shift, make USE of that, don't try to fight or restrict it. Send them on this romp, alive. Let them use their abilities. Give them a REASON to go to the planes in question, so they seek them out, rather than trapping them on a journey they must slog through to get back what they once had.

WarKitty
2017-10-01, 11:17 PM
What is the best plane shifting magic at their disposal? Plane shift, itself, comes with a built-in restriction: the material of the fork that makes up the material component. If they plane shift to a destination plane, they may not have what they need to get to the Prime with a single casting. That can make for a quest.

Ultimately, if they CAN plane shift, make USE of that, don't try to fight or restrict it. Send them on this romp, alive. Let them use their abilities. Give them a REASON to go to the planes in question, so they seek them out, rather than trapping them on a journey they must slog through to get back what they once had.

That would be very hard the way this game is set up. They have a goal, they're working on that goal. It's very clear that once that goal is completely finished, the game is over. The goal also has a time limit, which means they're not going to do anything that's not completely focused on that goal unless, IC, they don't have a realistic option to progress that goal. They're more likely to just spend a few hours arguing about more and more unrealistic and probably not rules legal ways to accomplish that goal (this being their general reaction to a monster they can't beat - not avoiding it so much as coming up with more and more intricate plots).

They tend to suffer rather much from what I call plot-lock.

Kardwill
2017-10-02, 09:20 AM
I know them well enough to know they won't be upset once they get there, it's just a matter of them getting there.


Hmm, I would normally go with the others and ask for their permission first, but if you are absolutely, 100% sure they are going to be okay with it, and you really want to surprise them with it, then put them into the "afterlife" situation from the start, "in media res". Don't try to conceal your railroad under a fudged/unbalanced encouter, but wear it openly, so that they know the game is not about that unwinnable combat/trap. You start the game, say that they are looking at their own corpses, and go from that point. What happened before can be a mystery ("your memories of what happened is fuzzy. You remember... Fire? Darkness? Weirdly, it doesn't sound that important anymore") that will be discovered later, it can be described by the players, or it can be played as a flashback.

The advantage of "playing" the death after it happened is that they won't try to squirm or whine their way out of your impossible fight : If they are okay with it, they can seize it as an occasion for some sweet badass drama, and roleplay it with so that their characters look pretty damn good while they go down. And that combat will be a good way to see their uber-nemesis in full-powered action, so that they are prepared for the rematch (because they WILL want a rematch once they're back to the living) :smalltongue:

Telonius
2017-10-02, 11:28 AM
If you're set on this, I'd offer a strong hint beforehand that the game isn't over with this particular TPK. Possibly a prophecy: something like, "Only by great sacrifice will Baron McEvil be destroyed; the blood of the Four will be the path to his defeat."

Segev
2017-10-02, 11:32 AM
That would be very hard the way this game is set up. They have a goal, they're working on that goal. It's very clear that once that goal is completely finished, the game is over. The goal also has a time limit, which means they're not going to do anything that's not completely focused on that goal unless, IC, they don't have a realistic option to progress that goal. They're more likely to just spend a few hours arguing about more and more unrealistic and probably not rules legal ways to accomplish that goal (this being their general reaction to a monster they can't beat - not avoiding it so much as coming up with more and more intricate plots).

They tend to suffer rather much from what I call plot-lock.

Then I suggest one of two things:

Either do this AFTER they finish their goal, and make it the next plot arc, OR make a new game to pursue the plot you want.

In the first case, give them goals to let them explore the planes, reasons to do so, rather than forcing it on them.

In the second case, you can set it up as the premise. "You all died, and wake up in the afterlife."

WarKitty
2017-10-02, 06:18 PM
Hmm, I would normally go with the others and ask for their permission first, but if you are absolutely, 100% sure they are going to be okay with it, and you really want to surprise them with it, then put them into the "afterlife" situation from the start, "in media res". Don't try to conceal your railroad under a fudged/unbalanced encouter, but wear it openly, so that they know the game is not about that unwinnable combat/trap. You start the game, say that they are looking at their own corpses, and go from that point. What happened before can be a mystery ("your memories of what happened is fuzzy. You remember... Fire? Darkness? Weirdly, it doesn't sound that important anymore") that will be discovered later, it can be described by the players, or it can be played as a flashback.

The advantage of "playing" the death after it happened is that they won't try to squirm or whine their way out of your impossible fight : If they are okay with it, they can seize it as an occasion for some sweet badass drama, and roleplay it with so that their characters look pretty damn good while they go down. And that combat will be a good way to see their uber-nemesis in full-powered action, so zthat they are prepared for the rematch (because they WILL want a rematch once they're back to the living) :smalltongue:

Keep in mind we're talking about a mid-game setting change, not a new game. So in media res isn't really possible - you're taking existing characters somewhere new for a while, not starting a new game.


Then I suggest one of two things:

Either do this AFTER they finish their goal, and make it the next plot arc, OR make a new game to pursue the plot you want.

In the first case, give them goals to let them explore the planes, reasons to do so, rather than forcing it on them.

In the second case, you can set it up as the premise. "You all died, and wake up in the afterlife."

Yeah, but... then what's the point? The point isn't to have a generic afterlife romp, the point is to do something new in this game with these characters. But I know them well enough that, IC, they'll see it as so important to get their current goal done right now that they won't be able to be diverted unless (again IC) their characters don't have much choice. OOC I think they'd enjoy it however.

Also, how often do you set up new games anyway? I think we started this game in 2014 and it's got a few more years to go.

Florian
2017-10-02, 06:27 PM
Also, how often do you set up new games anyway? I think we started this game in 2014 and it's got a few more years to go.

Roughly, once every two years. Story is told then, next one starts with the next game.

Kardwill
2017-10-03, 03:37 AM
Keep in mind we're talking about a mid-game setting change, not a new game. So in media res isn't really possible - you're taking existing characters somewhere new for a while, not starting a new game.


Why not? In media res is a perfectly valid way to start a game during an existing campaign. I do it all the time in my games to skip the buildup part of the scenario when I want to speed up things and get right into the middle of the action (which is quite often nowadays, since most of my players are parents and prefer 4-5 hours games every month, and not the weekly 10-12 hours games we did when we were students).

I often will present an interesting situation requiring an immediat decision, sometimes a likely consequence of last month game (I describe a monster horde attacking a village, or an interogation room with a suspicious cop, or one of them running for his life with an important message for the king...), and then ask them where they are / what they are doing. We can see how they got there later (with a flashback, or just by describing it, or asking them about it), but the important part is what they do NOW.

I imagine you do time skip and elipses during your campaign, to skip uninteresting stuff like travels? Well, this is the same, except the time skip included the combat where they got killed, because the interesting part comes after that ^^

WarKitty
2017-10-03, 04:12 AM
I imagine you do time skip and elipses during your campaign, to skip uninteresting stuff like travels? Well, this is the same, except the time skip included the combat where they got killed, because the interesting part comes after that ^^


Eh, I'm not sure that's fundamentally different from just fiating them dead at the start of the battle, which is my current plan. Either way you're still taking current characters and sticking them somewhere else regardless of what they were doing.

Lord Torath
2017-10-03, 08:12 AM
You've been playing with these players for 3-4 years now, they probably trust you pretty well. I think your "death by fiat" is probably your best bet, followed with a "Trust me, guys; this'll be fun."

Kardwill
2017-10-03, 10:50 AM
Either way you're still taking current characters and sticking them somewhere else regardless of what they were doing.

Well sure, but I do that all the time at the start of a game, and I suppose you do, too. "It's 2 weeks after the Vampire incident, and you are in the bus driving to Boston for the Massachusett Women Volleyball Cup. JC, did Jessicah take her witchcraft gear with her, or did you leave your tools in Salem?" / "You're at your favorite inn when your contact from the wizard's guild sits at your table" / "After you delivered your spice shipment to the Sleipnir system, you're flying back to GuildHeim when..."

Of course, it's more complicated if they are right in the middle of something important and urgent, but your afterlife story is going to interupt them anyway, so...

I find the Time skip / In media res more elegant for what you're trying to do, but if you(re more confortable by drawing them into a situation and fiating the result, that can work too. Just don't have them play through an unbalanced, unavoidable combat they don't know they are meant to lose. It would only generate frustration, which is bad stuff during a game.

Faily
2017-10-03, 11:36 AM
I think the idea sounds neat. A little interesting change of pace to see what goes on in the afterlife and advance some plot there (meeting ancestors or deities perhaps?). The challenge is of course to make the transition from overwhelming fight to "this isn't the end of your adventure".



If you're set on this, I'd offer a strong hint beforehand that the game isn't over with this particular TPK. Possibly a prophecy: something like, "Only by great sacrifice will Baron McEvil be destroyed; the blood of the Four will be the path to his defeat."

I like this suggestion. It reminds me of one of the Raids in D&D Online, The Shroud (http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Shroud), where the entire party has to die to attune the final altar (long story short, you're attuning a set of different altars through different stages). As you prepare to attune the altar, the voice of the NPC assisting you says something along the line of "Your journey to the Lost Moon will be traumatic. Do not abandon your quest, trust in the Shroud".

Segev
2017-10-03, 01:40 PM
Yeah, but... then what's the point? The point isn't to have a generic afterlife romp, the point is to do something new in this game with these characters. But I know them well enough that, IC, they'll see it as so important to get their current goal done right now that they won't be able to be diverted unless (again IC) their characters don't have much choice. OOC I think they'd enjoy it however.

Also, how often do you set up new games anyway? I think we started this game in 2014 and it's got a few more years to go.

Either what they're doing is something they can reasonably get done quickly, or "we can't do anything else" falls flat because there's bound to be down-time between steps at some point.

If you want to do it with these characters, just...do it. Either introduce something that puts the current plot on hold, or let them finish up what they're doing and make this the next thing.

WarKitty
2017-10-03, 05:34 PM
Either what they're doing is something they can reasonably get done quickly, or "we can't do anything else" falls flat because there's bound to be down-time between steps at some point.

Not really or very little. They pretty much just finish up one part of the plot and then teleport or use some other means of ultra-fast travel to the next bit.


If you want to do it with these characters, just...do it. Either introduce something that puts the current plot on hold, or let them finish up what they're doing and make this the next thing.

That's the thing, there is literally no way I can see to do that except to put them in a position where, IC, they don't have a choice. Once the current plot is over, the game is over, they can retire (and there would be no point in the afterlife stuff anyway because it's partly geared to the main plot). And they're not going to feel that they can reasonably set aside the main plot.

ATHATH
2017-10-04, 12:42 AM
+1 to the prophecy stuff/foreshadowing.

Coventry
2017-10-04, 01:11 AM
Usual disclaimer: my players, shoo!

So the background here is that I want to do a nice after-death planar romp (3.PF). This, however, requires a TPK to occur.

I tried to send this as a private message ... but your inbox is full.

If all you want is to relocate the entire part to another plane for the adventure, there is another way to do that without committing a TPK:

Have a very powerful entity on the plane where you want the players to romp cast a custom/Epic "Summon Monster" spell ... which happens to summon the players from the Prime Material Plane.

Summoned monsters (er, players) are actually better off - if they die while acting as a summons, they just return back to their home plane. They should lose any gathered loot if they die, though.

WarKitty
2017-10-04, 02:23 AM
I tried to send this as a private message ... but your inbox is full.

If all you want is to relocate the entire part to another plane for the adventure, there is another way to do that without committing a TPK:

Have a very powerful entity on the plane where you want the players to romp cast a custom/Epic "Summon Monster" spell ... which happens to summon the players from the Prime Material Plane.

Summoned monsters (er, players) are actually better off - if they die while acting as a summons, they just return back to their home plane. They should lose any gathered loot if they die, though.

I somehow feel like that would be even more annoying - as well as having the side effect that they're going to irreversibly hate whoever summoned them there.

Aneurin
2017-10-04, 05:47 AM
I somehow feel like that would be even more annoying - as well as having the side effect that they're going to irreversibly hate whoever summoned them there.

Maybe they could meet some of the creatures they've summoned while they're there, and see how their summons like being yanked out of their home and made to fight someone else's enemies? :smallwink:


...But more seriously, if the players don't want to take a detour from the main plotline, maybe don't make them? I mean, you've said a couple of times that they won't divert, so perhaps they're not interested in doing something else?

Alternatively, make sure they're aware that on this detour (that they can only complete after ritually sacrificing themselves or whatever) they'll get something incredibly useful and actually worth the time it takes out from the main quest.

WarKitty
2017-10-04, 06:57 AM
...But more seriously, if the players don't want to take a detour from the main plotline,maybe don't make them? I mean, you've said a couple of times that they won't divert, so perhaps they're not interested in doing something else?

IC/OOC issues there. The PC's, as players, aren't the types who are going to trust some sort of ritual thing, and IC they'll see the risks of abandoning the plot - since it's rather a save-the-world plot - as too high. I don't think I could craft something they would, IC, both be willing to trust and see as important or valuable enough to be worth the detour. Seriously, getting them to trust anything at all is almost impossible. And it's not really interest holding them so much as it's the kind of plotline that could both kill the world and has a time limit, so they aren't going to feel IC that going off for something else is something they can afford to do, and they aren't going to trust any NPC I send to tell the that it will be ok.

But I don't think they have any actual OOC reasons to mind a detour from the main plotline. It's just that I have to build it in a way where they don't feel like they're breaking character to do so. IC compulsion is the easiest way to do this. If the characters don't have a choice, they don't have the same issue with feeling like they have to choose between following the fun plot stuff and doing something logical for their characters.

Trampaige
2017-10-04, 11:31 AM
How much plane shifting, teleporting, dimensional travel, resurrection do they actually have available as lvl8 pcs in pathfinder?

Those spells typically begin at lvl9 and above.

Coventry
2017-10-04, 03:41 PM
as well as having the side effect that they're going to irreversibly hate whoever summoned them there.

Also called a "motivating plot hook".

Have the bad guy summon the PCs, send them into battle, then immediately flee the scene.
Have the good guy cast "Protection from X", so the PCs can't touch the good guy (summons cannot affect ...).
Have the good guy talk to the PCs, invite them to come back on his side once the Summon spell wears off, and tell them how.

Now it's not railroading - it's a willing choice.

AMFV
2017-10-04, 04:11 PM
Honestly, here is how I would do it. Don't have them have a TPK, that's like two hours of play they're going to hate, and they're going to be pissed that they couldn't resolve. At the end of their adventures when they go to rest, have them wake up dead. And have them not remember how they died or exactly what happened. So then you have an additional plot hook in trying to piece together what killed them, was it a battle, was it betrayal, that's a mystery, and mysteries are much more fun than surprises.

Sinewmire
2017-10-05, 06:44 AM
I would A) explain to the players that you expect them to die and you have plans for afterwards B) offer XP rewards for surviving x number of waves to make sure they fight as hard as they can and C) send wave after wave of moderately difficult encounters, one after another.

Maybe offer roleplaying XP for the *characters* taking it really seriously too.

Segev
2017-10-05, 02:24 PM
Not really or very little. They pretty much just finish up one part of the plot and then teleport or use some other means of ultra-fast travel to the next bit.



That's the thing, there is literally no way I can see to do that except to put them in a position where, IC, they don't have a choice. Once the current plot is over, the game is over, they can retire (and there would be no point in the afterlife stuff anyway because it's partly geared to the main plot). And they're not going to feel that they can reasonably set aside the main plot.

If they use fast-travel to get to the next plot point, why not just add plot points in the planes you want them to go to?

Tinkerer
2017-10-05, 03:23 PM
IC/OOC issues there. The PC's, as players, aren't the types who are going to trust some sort of ritual thing, and IC they'll see the risks of abandoning the plot - since it's rather a save-the-world plot - as too high. I don't think I could craft something they would, IC, both be willing to trust and see as important or valuable enough to be worth the detour. Seriously, getting them to trust anything at all is almost impossible. And it's not really interest holding them so much as it's the kind of plotline that could both kill the world and has a time limit, so they aren't going to feel IC that going off for something else is something they can afford to do, and they aren't going to trust any NPC I send to tell the that it will be ok.

But I don't think they have any actual OOC reasons to mind a detour from the main plotline. It's just that I have to build it in a way where they don't feel like they're breaking character to do so. IC compulsion is the easiest way to do this. If the characters don't have a choice, they don't have the same issue with feeling like they have to choose between following the fun plot stuff and doing something logical for their characters.

Why not just put it after saving the world with a time limit? Because I agree with them, that isn't really the sort of situation that they are going to be able to ignore. As a result while they will be in the other plane their mind is going to be on the whole slight matter of saving the world. From my time as a player I can say that such a side quest which has nothing to do with the main quest is extremely annoying. It reminds me far too much of GMs who start a campaign and then change their mind halfway through as to what it's about.

Or as an alternative make explicit that something which is required for the main "save the world" quest can only be obtained from the realm of the dead. By the dead. As in they must be dead to complete the quest. Then how they get there can be left safely in their hands. Maybe they run a kamikaze mission against the enemy forces, trying to do as much damage as they can before dying. Maybe they entrust their bodies to a powerful priest with instructions to resurrect them in 14 days if they haven't found a way back to their bodies. Maybe they think of something which I haven't. Or maybe they decide that the price is too high and look for another way in which case you put the quest on a back burner.

It's one thing that I've never understood about many people's GMing style. The insistence that right now is the only time that they could possibly use this quest. If it's a solid quest but it doesn't fit right now (and it certainly sounds like it doesn't) it'll keep. Quests normally have an expiration date of about 20 years after they're thought up, there is no rush.

EDIT: As always assuming that I'm understanding the situation correctly.

WarKitty
2017-10-05, 06:26 PM
Why not just put it after saving the world with a time limit? Because I agree with them, that isn't really the sort of situation that they are going to be able to ignore. As a result while they will be in the other plane their mind is going to be on the whole slight matter of saving the world. From my time as a player I can say that such a side quest which has nothing to do with the main quest is extremely annoying. It reminds me far too much of GMs who start a campaign and then change their mind halfway through as to what it's about.

Or as an alternative make explicit that something which is required for the main "save the world" quest can only be obtained from the realm of the dead. By the dead. As in they must be dead to complete the quest. Then how they get there can be left safely in their hands. Maybe they run a kamikaze mission against the enemy forces, trying to do as much damage as they can before dying. Maybe they entrust their bodies to a powerful priest with instructions to resurrect them in 14 days if they haven't found a way back to their bodies. Maybe they think of something which I haven't. Or maybe they decide that the price is too high and look for another way in which case you put the quest on a back burner.

It's one thing that I've never understood about many people's GMing style. The insistence that right now is the only time that they could possibly use this quest. If it's a solid quest but it doesn't fit right now (and it certainly sounds like it doesn't) it'll keep. Quests normally have an expiration date of about 20 years after they're thought up, there is no rush.

EDIT: As always assuming that I'm understanding the situation correctly.

Because we're very clearly in a situation where when the main save the world quest is over, the game is over. There's not going to be any game after the main plotline, they're going to go home and retire. And the whole point of the plane romping adventure is to get artifacts (and experience) that will help them with the main plotline. I just know that, IC, well, there's no way I can think of that would get their characters to go on this quest willingly, even if the players would enjoy it. For example - the players are all very suspicious and don't trust anyone outside of the party, so any NPC or magical message or anything I send to suggest they need to be dead is going to be seen IC as "this person is obviously trying to lead us into a trap, we should kill them." It's not that I don't think they would enjoy it, it's that I can't think of any way to get them there voluntarily where they wouldn't feel like they had to do something their characters would never do in order to get there.

I've also had complaints from my players that they don't want to know, OOC, where the plot is going. So if I'm going to pull off a surprise, they want me to pull off something they weren't expecting, and it ruins the fun for them if I tell them plot points in advance that their characters wouldn't know.

Also, the added bonus here is that I wanted the death to be specifically at the hands of one of the monsters that they need to kill to save the world. Because that gives them another reason. They need to kill it, but it's clearly too powerful to destroy as is, so they need to seek help. And it's no fun if they can just zap onto the plane they want and zap back to their base in the material plane whenever with no issues. I also have the advantage that if they're dead, I can do some special stuff with time so they don't feel like they're actually losing time - but that only really works if they can't very well get back to the material plane easily.

AMFV
2017-10-05, 11:09 PM
Because we're very clearly in a situation where when the main save the world quest is over, the game is over. There's not going to be any game after the main plotline, they're going to go home and retire. And the whole point of the plane romping adventure is to get artifacts (and experience) that will help them with the main plotline. I just know that, IC, well, there's no way I can think of that would get their characters to go on this quest willingly, even if the players would enjoy it. For example - the players are all very suspicious and don't trust anyone outside of the party, so any NPC or magical message or anything I send to suggest they need to be dead is going to be seen IC as "this person is obviously trying to lead us into a trap, we should kill them." It's not that I don't think they would enjoy it, it's that I can't think of any way to get them there voluntarily where they wouldn't feel like they had to do something their characters would never do in order to get there.

Again, fiat, just have them start a session waking up and finding out that they're in the afterlife, with no memory of how they died. Since that's part of the afterlife. Then you don't have to worry about battles or having them spend two hours getting curbstomped, and then it's a surprise since they won't realize for a bit that they're in the afterlife, the suspiciousness will work well, and it gets you a lot of ability to do weird things and hints and such. Again mysteries are more fun than surprises they're solvable.



I've also had complaints from my players that they don't want to know, OOC, where the plot is going. So if I'm going to pull off a surprise, they want me to pull off something they weren't expecting, and it ruins the fun for them if I tell them plot points in advance that their characters wouldn't know.


So again, why not have more mystery, why not just fiat them to the afterlife with a mystery of finding out who killed them and also finding out how to get back, this gives you two story threads to work with, not just one and will kill a lot more time.



Also, the added bonus here is that I wanted the death to be specifically at the hands of one of the monsters that they need to kill to save the world. Because that gives them another reason. They need to kill it, but it's clearly too powerful to destroy as is, so they need to seek help. And it's no fun if they can just zap onto the plane they want and zap back to their base in the material plane whenever with no issues. I also have the advantage that if they're dead, I can do some special stuff with time so they don't feel like they're actually losing time - but that only really works if they can't very well get back to the material plane easily.

And you can still have the monster have killed them, but with my suggestion you have more time to build up the monster, more time to build up the memory of what happened at the last battle, and it happened without your players actually having to play through a battle they can't win which is literally anti-fun, like zero fun.

WarKitty
2017-10-05, 11:49 PM
I guess I feel like "you just wake up dead with no idea of what happened"...I feel like that would get worse reactions than just a death in battle? I know if I was a player I would much rather see something that killed me, figuring out how I died (when there's already a clear enemy I was supposed to be dealing) with would just seem like cheap BS. Especially after taking multiple hours in game time to ensure exactly that I can't just be killed in my sleep - I don't know if your players do that, but that's pretty much SOP for my players.

I mean, I had switched the plan to something that would kill them very quickly at the beginning of battle - pretty much just giving them a fake "save" that I know they can't reach. They might roll a 20, but the odds of more than one are low, and I can just redo it.

Segev
2017-10-05, 11:50 PM
If you think they'd enjoy it, and aren't worried about the OOC business, why not just ask them, "Would you like to do a plot arc where your characters die and have to go through the afterlife to get back before they can continue the main quest?"

WarKitty
2017-10-05, 11:55 PM
If you think they'd enjoy it, and aren't worried about the OOC business, why not just ask them, "Would you like to do a plot arc where your characters die and have to go through the afterlife to get back before they can continue the main quest?"

Because then I get complaints about ruining surprises and it's no fun if they know what my plans are in advance.

AMFV
2017-10-06, 12:16 AM
I guess I feel like "you just wake up dead with no idea of what happened"...I feel like that would get worse reactions than just a death in battle? I know if I was a player I would much rather see something that killed me, figuring out how I died (when there's already a clear enemy I was supposed to be dealing) with would just seem like cheap BS. Especially after taking multiple hours in game time to ensure exactly that I can't just be killed in my sleep - I don't know if your players do that, but that's pretty much SOP for my players.

They aren't killed in their sleep, they were killed in the battle you described, they just don't remember the battle. They don't remember the details of the battle, that was what I was going for. Like they might even have vague memories of getting to the battle. It's just to avoid playing a curbstomp which trust me, is no fun. Like as a player it's bull**** and frustrating.



I mean, I had switched the plan to something that would kill them very quickly at the beginning of battle - pretty much just giving them a fake "save" that I know they can't reach. They might roll a 20, but the odds of more than one are low, and I can just redo it.

What are you going to do if they leave? Like run, if they're good combat players, they'll leave if it's shaping up to be a curbstomp. I know I would, especially if you've given me teleport. If you give them an out, they're probably going to get it and it's going to screw your plans.


Because then I get complaints about ruining surprises and it's no fun if they know what my plans are in advance.

Honestly... I mean honestly, as an outside observer, what is going on here, sounds like campaign burnout. Like you might want to put the game on hold and then do the death thing, or start a new game with that goal and come back to your other one.

WarKitty
2017-10-06, 02:25 AM
What are you going to do if they leave? Like run, if they're good combat players, they'll leave if it's shaping up to be a curbstomp. I know I would, especially if you've given me teleport. If you give them an out, they're probably going to get it and it's going to screw your plans.

I think we have different definitions of "very quickly" here. By "very quickly", I mean "at most 2 rounds." As in, you get to the battle, enemy monster uses Massively Overpowered Ability, make a save at <<DC you can't reach>>, if you fail you die. They could roll a 20, but the odds of more than one of them doing that is low.

AMFV
2017-10-06, 02:40 AM
I think we have different definitions of "very quickly" here. By "very quickly", I mean "at most 2 rounds." As in, you get to the battle, enemy monster uses Massively Overpowered Ability, make a save at <<DC you can't reach>>, if you fail you die. They could roll a 20, but the odds of more than one of them doing that is low.

If they're at mid-levels that's contingency teleport time. And you still have the chance that one of them rolls a 20, now your party is split, and everybody is upset. Losing in battle makes people angry, and doubly so if they don't think that they had a fair shake. DM fiating a "Massively Overpowered Ability" is much worse for me personally than DM fiating "You remember having a massive battle but when you wake up you don't know where you are, and it's not where you remember being last". One feels like cheating the other feels like an fun mystery and a plot twist.

WarKitty
2017-10-06, 02:45 AM
If they're at mid-levels that's contingency teleport time. And you still have the chance that one of them rolls a 20, now your party is split, and everybody is upset. Losing in battle makes people angry, and doubly so if they don't think that they had a fair shake. DM fiating a "Massively Overpowered Ability" is much worse for me personally than DM fiating "You remember having a massive battle but when you wake up you don't know where you are, and it's not where you remember being last". One feels like cheating the other feels like an fun mystery and a plot twist.

Huh - it feels completely opposite to me. "You remember a battle but you don't remember anything else" feels like cheating to put a non sequitur in, and one that involves a hackneyed plot device to boot. I don't like DM's messing with what happened to my character or what my character did without me being explicitly there to react - who said I was planning to go to the battle in that way at all?

Losing a battle wouldn't be too bad. Being told I lost one that I didn't get to play through would something that would make me think twice about playing.

AMFV
2017-10-06, 03:13 AM
Huh - it feels completely opposite to me. "You remember a battle but you don't remember anything else" feels like cheating to put a non sequitur in, and one that involves a hackneyed plot device to boot. I don't like DM's messing with what happened to my character or what my character did without me being explicitly there to react - who said I was planning to go to the battle in that way at all?

In what way? As players start to fill in the blanks, you let them for this particular exercise. You're not robbing them of their agency to talk about how they would have reacted, you're just not giving them an over-CR encounter that they cannot escape from, cannot avoid, and cannot meaningfully impact. To me that would be far more frustrating than finding out that my character had died and that I needed to figure out why, which is a common plot device or relatively so.



Losing a battle wouldn't be too bad. Being told I lost one that I didn't get to play through would something that would make me think twice about playing.

They aren't "losing a battle" they're being put in a situation where they can't win or even escape, that's the problem. And worse you aren't even really doing that since one or two of them COULD escape, and if they're super paranoid they might have ways to escape, and then you have the party split, you still have the horrible monster, and everybody is pissed off.

Edit: If they're rolling dice they should have a meaningful chance to impact the story, if they're rolling dice and they don't then it's not really all that great.

WarKitty
2017-10-06, 04:37 AM
I think I should clarify what I am and am not thinking about.

I'm not thinking accusations of railroading are going to be a big issue. The main issue I've had is - well, the circle I have has another DM who has a reputation for overhard encounters as a matter of course that tend to kill PC's frequently (requiring new PC's). The main concern is that they'd stop an overpowered fight because they presumed that it was supposed to be winnable and that I just overdid the fight. So I don't think making sure they don't feel railroaded is as big an issue here as making sure they know in-game that I'm pulling something off, without ruining the surprise.


To me that would be far more frustrating than finding out that my character had died and that I needed to figure out why, which is a common plot device or relatively so.

I have to say, for me this would still be a definite "hands off my character" moment. Have things happen to my character, but don't tell me something has happened and then expect me to figure out what I went through. That's just a completely whole new level and it would be way more annoying than just telling me what happened and letting me figure out how to undo it. And in general, don't just tell me I have amnesia, unless it's 100% clear at the start (and even then I probably won't want to play).

AMFV
2017-10-06, 05:06 AM
I think I should clarify what I am and am not thinking about.

I'm not thinking accusations of railroading are going to be a big issue. The main issue I've had is - well, the circle I have has another DM who has a reputation for overhard encounters as a matter of course that tend to kill PC's frequently (requiring new PC's). The main concern is that they'd stop an overpowered fight because they presumed that it was supposed to be winnable and that I just overdid the fight. So I don't think making sure they don't feel railroaded is as big an issue here as making sure they know in-game that I'm pulling something off, without ruining the surprise.

I don't see an easy solution for that... Maybe have like a horror movie episode where the monster is picking them off one by one and it's not clear if they're alive or dead till the end. That might seem less like it's something that should just be stopped and would probably arouse suspicion less. But I'm not even sure if that would work.



I have to say, for me this would still be a definite "hands off my character" moment. Have things happen to my character, but don't tell me something has happened and then expect me to figure out what I went through. That's just a completely whole new level and it would be way more annoying than just telling me what happened and letting me figure out how to undo it. And in general, don't just tell me I have amnesia, unless it's 100% clear at the start (and even then I probably won't want to play).

And that is fair, I'm mostly trying to give you what my perspective would be, because it's possible that some of your players may be similar, it's also possible that they aren't. I mean you don't have to take my advice, especially since you know your group better than me. For me, that would be really interesting and I would love it, honestly, but I can see that you wouldn't and maybe your group wouldn't.

Kardwill
2017-10-06, 08:02 AM
Huh - it feels completely opposite to me. "You remember a battle but you don't remember anything else" feels like cheating to put a non sequitur in, and one that involves a hackneyed plot device to boot. I don't like DM's messing with what happened to my character or what my character did without me being explicitly there to react - who said I was planning to go to the battle in that way at all?

The thing is, you ARE preparing to do just that. You are dragging the characters forcibly into a situation they can't escape and can't win. Whatever they do during the battle will have no importance, so their choices are going to be effectively non-existent. You're trying to give an illusion of choice to your players, but that illusion mean they will try to fight your rails, and get frustrated when everything they try (fight, teleport out, hide, beg for their lives...) gets shot down.
Showing them the monster, then fiating them with a "you're dead/you wake up in a strange place" speech, or playing out the combat in a pure diceless form, are effectively the same thing, but it keeps honest about it. You didn't con them into thinking they had a choice, you just made clear that the important stuff comes after, and made a clean and quick transition.

Everybody got different tastes, sure, but AMFV's setup sounds like a game I would like to sit at. I may grumble if the GM just killed my established character, but it will pass very quickly since I still get to play him and I'll get into the mystery.
Your "roll a save. Natural 20? OK, roll a save AGAIN" setup is the kind of situation where I would be tempted to pack my things and leave the room before your big reveal about an afterlife adventure. It's hitting my buttons in all the wrong places. Maybe your players are very different from me (In fact, the way you describe them, it sounds like they are, which is cool. Our hobby has many different games for a reason), but the situation you're setting up with zero-consequence dicerolls and unimportant player choices has a good chance of being a source of frustration, and frustration is the game-killer.

I understand what you're going for : You want them to be surprised that the game continues after their defeat. It could be a nice, memorable game if you pull it just right. "Remember the time when Warkitty destroyed us in an unbalanced encounter, and we played the travel through Hell because it was his plan all along?"
But it's the kind of trick that may be very tricky to do properly.

ExLibrisMortis
2017-10-06, 08:37 AM
I haven't read through the entire thread, but I'll throw in some support for the first reply and advice in that vein.


That said and done, let us assume that there is some overwhelming combat encounter that results in a TPK. Said encounter should be one that is (a) expected to be overwhelming (bona fide unique world-eater demons of DOOM entering the field), (b) expected to be unavoidable (unique planar rift effects of sufficient puissance) and (c) expected to be uniquely and massively rewarding, in the broader and narrower senses of the word (cash, XP, plot, essentially). That is, I want to play out an epic last stand in defence of the great Citadel of +5 Vorpal Orphans, not get picked on by a pit fiend at the wrong end of a Nessian kebab.

I'd be pretty upset to find my character about to face death. However, if the DM made clear they had a plan, and I subsequently found myself in a well-described afterlife that does not conflict with my character's outlook and alignment, not having lost a level (the lost level is a product of the resurrection process, after all), and carrying a whopping great (piece of) a minor artifact with the promise of redeeming its greater version for the forces of [alignment] if I fight my way out of [afterlife], I would be sufficiently mollified to swallow the bait and hook, so to speak.


You could up-front with your players with a challenge: "The Citadel is under terrible threat. How many rounds can you stand against the might World-Eaters!?", with the understanding that it is a 48-hour-preparation-with-full-store-access endurance challenge to the death, contingent true resurrection courtesy of our sponsor, Celestia Cooperative Casting. The afterlife is the surprising alternative to a vanilla resurrection.

WarKitty
2017-10-06, 08:41 AM
The thing is, you ARE preparing to do just that. You are dragging the characters forcibly into a situation they can't escape and can't win. Whatever they do during the battle will have no importance, so their choices are going to be effectively non-existent. You're trying to give an illusion of choice to your players, but that illusion mean they will try to fight your rails, and get frustrated when everything they try (fight, teleport out, hide, beg for their lives...) gets shot down.
Showing them the monster, then fiating them with a "you're dead/you wake up in a strange place" speech, or playing out the combat in a pure diceless form, are effectively the same thing, but it keeps honest about it. You didn't con them into thinking they had a choice, you just made clear that the important stuff comes after, and made a clean and quick transition.

Everybody got different tastes, sure, but AMFV's setup sounds like a game I would like to sit at. I may grumble if the GM just killed my established character, but it will pass very quickly since I still get to play him and I'll get into the mystery.
Your "roll a save. Natural 20? OK, roll a save AGAIN" setup is the kind of situation where I would be tempted to pack my things and leave the room before your big reveal about an afterlife adventure. It's hitting my buttons in all the wrong places. Maybe your players are very different from me (In fact, the way you describe them, it sounds like they are, which is cool. Our hobby has many different games for a reason), but the situation you're setting up with zero-consequence dicerolls and unimportant player choices has a good chance of being a source of frustration, and frustration is the game-killer.

I think for me it's more that, specifically, amnesia is something I wouldn't want to play with. The just wake up isn't too bad, it's the "you don't know what happened" part. That's where I'd draw the line - telling me that, since I went to Y battle, X happened, that's ok. Telling me that I have no idea what I did, but X happened, that's not ok.

You're right though, it might be best to eliminate the save.



I'd be pretty upset to find my character about to face death. However, if the DM made clear they had a plan, and I subsequently found myself in a well-described afterlife that does not conflict with my character's outlook and alignment, not having lost a level (the lost level is a product of the resurrection process, after all), and carrying a whopping great (piece of) a minor artifact with the promise of redeeming its greater version for the forces of [alignment] if I fight my way out of [afterlife], I would be sufficiently mollified to swallow the bait and hook, so to speak.


Thankfully none of my PC's seem to be particularly religious. And it's already been clear from the beginning of the game that religion and the afterlife operate on Kitty's rules, which are not regular D&D rules, and that they should not expect them to operate on regular D&D rules. I also was thinking of having a god block them from the "true" afterlife and offer them their planar adventure instead. So even if they have an idea of heaven, they can realize they're not there yet, but it might still be there.

Tinkerer
2017-10-06, 12:44 PM
So it sounds like killing the party is the problem... Hmm, what about killing one member of the party? And then take that one member and run a small solo campaign with the promise of treasure? It is a much smaller problem to fudge one characters death than the whole group. Then they themselves can be the one to invite the rest of the party to the afterlife quest? Pick the most charismatic and greedy of the players and just... just give them a little nudge into death. Then make it so they don't want to come back until the afterlife quest is over, the players would be a lot more likely to accept that coming from another players mouth rather than an NPC or a message. It's really tricky to give advise on this since I'm not familiar with the players but I'm less than fond of the "Something shows up and you all die". Hmm, or maybe lock the teleportation and have them fighting something big in a cavern only to have the cavern collapse in the death throes. Remember you can have a couple of them escape to live if you manage to hook the players in the afterlife.

EDIT: Wait I missed the end of the last post. So it's not actually in the afterlife? So why do they have to die to go on the quest?

Anxe
2017-10-06, 07:03 PM
So you definitely want to kill them without them being mentally prepared for it. You've explained why. That's all good.

The reasoning is there. It gets them where the plot is going as you said (maybe the plot doesn't need to go there, but whatever). It also builds their hatred of the monster that kills them. Solid motivations for getting the artifacts and escaping the afterlife. REVENGE! EDIT] Also foreshadowing of the monster's combat abilities and why the artifacts might be useful. [/EDIT

I would hand each of them a note or take them into the other room as they died. Explain where they are now and what's happening. That gets that player on your side when the others start dying off, but keeps the surprise in place for the others. Incremental mental preparation might be a good instead of the direct kind where you just talk about this plot device beforehand.

Personally, I'd also be a bit brutal in the description of each PCs death. Usually I run monsters where they knock people out and then move on without executing downed foes. Don't do that for this encounter. The monster can spend a whole round tearing a downed PC to pieces. Hand that PC a note. Then the monster's hungry red eyes turn towards its next target. And make sure its a specific PC that's the next target so you can savor the look on his face as the pants-wetting fear sets in.

WarKitty
2017-10-06, 07:23 PM
EDIT: Wait I missed the end of the last post. So it's not actually in the afterlife? So why do they have to die to go on the quest?

A better way to put that is it's in an afterlife, but it might not be in the afterlife in some singular sense of "this is definitely where you'll go when you die for keeps."

There's also a lot more established in the plot. The big bad is established and it would cause issues to change it. The site of the battle is also fairly well established, along with the timing for it.

I think a quick no-save kill is the best idea for multiple reasons. One is that at this level, a lot of them can teleport - if it looks to be a no-win battle, they will. Two it makes it clear that I'm moving through to something else quickly.

AMFV
2017-10-06, 10:14 PM
I think for me it's more that, specifically, amnesia is something I wouldn't want to play with. The just wake up isn't too bad, it's the "you don't know what happened" part. That's where I'd draw the line - telling me that, since I went to Y battle, X happened, that's ok. Telling me that I have no idea what I did, but X happened, that's not ok.

For me the amnesia is a way to avoid what you're describing. If the players know exactly what they did in that situation, it's like "But I would have teleported away" or "I would have tried this clever situation and you didn't let me" It opens the door for that. Also post-death amnesia is a strong trope in most settings with an afterlife. Which is why I would include that.



I think a quick no-save kill is the best idea for multiple reasons. One is that at this level, a lot of them can teleport - if it looks to be a no-win battle, they will. Two it makes it clear that I'm moving through to something else quickly.

You're screwed, unless you can get them to buy in. It's going to seem like you're being unfair and fiating them, and it's going to seem like you're cheating, I would just tell them, because there's no way you can guarantee that won't hold out, and there's no way you can guarantee that they don't have something that will give them a one time effect immunity (those are plentiful), you aren't going to get that kind of surprise at high level and have it feel fair unless you are directly fiating as I describe, or unless your players have a lot less sense of fairness than any I've played with.

WarKitty
2017-10-06, 10:17 PM
AMFV, I guess I don't really get your sense of fairness.

Doing something that happens instantaneously and I can't avoid? Don't overuse it, but ok.

Doing something where I don't know what happened, what led up to it, or how I got in that situation? Definitely not fair. That's way, way less fair than the first version.

AMFV
2017-10-06, 11:02 PM
AMFV, I guess I don't really get your sense of fairness.

Doing something that happens instantaneously and I can't avoid? Don't overuse it, but ok.

Doing something where I don't know what happened, what led up to it, or how I got in that situation? Definitely not fair. That's way, way less fair than the first version.

The difference is that in the former, you are telling them that they had a battle and that you took control of their characters and decided what happened to them, in the latter, they were still in control, they just lost. That's the difference.

Also the fairness comment was principally to do with the difference between giving them a situation where you're making it look like they can impact things and then they can't. Which is much worse than "Cutscene and now you're dead".

WarKitty
2017-10-07, 12:27 AM
The difference is that in the former, you are telling them that they had a battle and that you took control of their characters and decided what happened to them, in the latter, they were still in control, they just lost. That's the difference.

That's kind of the problem. I'd much rather be in a situation
where I just lost than one where the DM took control of my character.


Also the fairness comment was principally to do with the difference between giving them a situation where you're making it look like they can impact things and then they can't. Which is much worse than "Cutscene and now you're dead".

Fair enough, that's why I was thinking of skipping the save.

I'm also setting it up so they can, at the end of things, come back to the battle right at the moment they "died", with any preparation and such that they did, plus bonuses they got from their journey through death. So it won't totally invalidate everything, just kind of suspend it.

AMFV
2017-10-07, 12:55 AM
That's kind of the problem. I'd much rather be in a situation
where I just lost than one where the DM took control of my character.

Here's the thing... they aren't going have "just lost" they're going to have been put in a place where there was no other option. Players recognize that IMMEDIATELY, and it's worse, trust me, it's way worse than even the DM taking control. Like I've seen campaigns fall apart from that sort of thing.

WarKitty
2017-10-07, 01:55 AM
Ok, I'm getting too annoyed with this thread, which I think has little to do with the current posters and everything to do with general life things that have nothing to do with D&D. So I'm going to back off a bit.

I think I'll go with the "you just die in the first round, no save and it's a magic ability of some new undefined type." I ran that by a few of the other GM's in my group that have run with the same players and they like it. Maybe I'll have some sort of steam-operated golem on rails suck their souls in, just for entertainment value.

Worst comes to worst, I know I've earned enough goodwill that the worst reaction will be "that's BS, let's retcon." I know I've had to retcon before, it's not ideal but it'll work.