3.P - What If Someone "Escaped" From Ravenloft?

[unseenmage]

Assume a character was drawn into the Demiplane of Dread by the Mists of Ravenloft, partook in the grim adventures to be had there, then *somehow* got away... what would that do to them, as a person I mean? What sort of personality peccadilloes would/could they be left with as grim reminders that they were someplace horrible and they can never truly escape it?

Options that make it so they never really got away are acceptable here as well. Maybe they're just a Simulacrum or Ice Assassin or Shadow Conjuration of themselves, perhaps they're an Alter Ego or Trompe L'oeil, perhaps they're the dream of escape that the original character had which itself escaped from the Dreamheart to live the life its progenitor never can. Maybe a Ghost?

The character in question was a fiery tempered kobold mech pilot hero who went from the DragonMech grimdark universe top the Ravenloft grimmerdarker universe and is now wandering about the seas of PF's Golarion with their mech (their pride and joy and most prized possession) cannibalized to power a pirate ship turned steamboat-i-fied pirate ship.

To my mind she still loves the grinding metal and splintering wood of mechanized/vehicular combat, which she gets plenty of as the ship's gunner, but she should have some damage, some instability of some kind from her ordeal(s) in the Demiplane of Dread.

Thoughts Playground?

[Blackhawk748]

It will royally screw them up. Ravenloft is a horrendously dark place where magic destroys the caster and Karma is ironically cruel. I mean, its Gothic Dark and thats pretty bad, so i would guess your character may have a dose of paranoia, cuz the Mists just sorta show up, and theres no real way to stop them

[Calthropstu]

I played an adventure path that did this, your characters were drawn into ravenloft and had to choose to either destroy it or save it culminating in a fight with either a 23rd caster level lich with strahd at your back, or a knock down dragout war against strahd.
We chose to destroy ravenloft and hunt down all of the lords afterwards... starting with strahd.
I have one word to say about killing strahd and liches: disintigrate.
Since it actually forces fort saves, they are pretty much rolling flat die rolls against it.

[Crake]

I have one word to say about killing strahd and liches: disintigrate.
Since it actually forces fort saves, they are pretty much rolling flat die rolls against it.

Until they just cast spell immunity vs disintegrate.

[Psyren]

The few folks who managed to get out have usually been bad news, e.g. Vecna and Lord Soth from Dragonlance. I'm not sure if that says anything about the qualities needed to escape, or even the effects of escape (Ravenloft is far from my forte) but there you go.

[Calthropstu]

Until they just cast spell immunity vs disintegrate.

Which Strahd doesn't have access to.

[Astralia123]

Which Strahd doesn't have access to.

He does have sth else that can counter that, though. Like spell turning, which is much more effective as long as you get it on you when spell fight begins.
Or maybe he has a ring of counter spell or so. You know he even went that far to have a contingency on him conditioned to counter sun light attacks in 25th anniversary version of the original module...

If you have the bane against such an intelligent enemy, the best strategy is to not reveal it until the time...I learnt it the hard way in the game some years ago.

[WeaselGuy]

The few folks who managed to get out have usually been bad news, e.g. Vecna and Lord Soth from Dragonlance. I'm not sure if that says anything about the qualities needed to escape, or even the effects of escape (Ravenloft is far from my forte) but there you go.

Is there actual documentation about Vecna and Soth having been to Ravenloft? I'm not doubting or challenging you, I'm honestly interested in reading it, and reading about how if messed them up. I read a lot of the Weiss/Hickman books, but Soth wasn't really a "main" character in the ones I read, only mentioned (I think there were a few chapters in one of the books that dealt with him a bit more in depth, but I don't really remember much about it). Maybe in the Campaign Setting? I never read it all the way through.

[Psyren]

Is there actual documentation about Vecna and Soth having been to Ravenloft? I'm not doubting or challenging you, I'm honestly interested in reading it, and reading about how if messed them up. I read a lot of the Weiss/Hickman books, but Soth wasn't really a "main" character in the ones I read, only mentioned (I think there were a few chapters in one of the books that dealt with him a bit more in depth, but I don't really remember much about it). Maybe in the Campaign Setting? I never read it all the way through.

IIRC, the Vecna bit comes from Die Vecna Die and the Soth part is from... Knight of the Black Rose? I'm afraid I don't have many details beyond that.

As far as how it messed them up though, good luck - they were both pretty messed up to begin with :smalltongue:

[gkathellar]

There are two characters who have done so. Let's take a look at them.

The first, Lord Soth, is kind of a weird case because the real reason for his escape is a writer's quarrel - he was Tracy Hickman's character, and Hickman didn't like how he'd been seized without permission. That said, the excuse given for Soth's escape was that he was already too miserable to hurt, so the Dark Powers got bored of him. As such, Soth was barely affected by his stay - intrinsically, he's too much of a self-hating lump for anything to really bother him.

The other, Vecna, is ... well, he's Vecna. He's the lich. He's also completely insane, and had been for a long time before making his way to Ravenloft, so it's hard to say whether it had any lasting effects on him. Certainly it wouldn't have made him any more stable. One might speculate, however, that his time spent there, followed by an impossible escape, probably aggravated his egomania and already-tenuous hold on reality. Certainly it would explain his attempt to sneak into Sigil - an act that he should have known was a bad idea. How bad an idea? It saw him shot down from a greater god to a lesser one (a tectonic shift), and caused the multiverse to teeter momentarily on the brink of destruction. Given Vecna is a wizard and successful military leader with a gigantic intelligence score, he really should have seen this coming. The attempt doesn't speak well to his mental health following his interlude in the Demiplane of Dread.

What might we draw from these two tales? Simply, that whatever the Dreadlord's existing hangups were, they're almost guaranteed to get worse. This fits pretty well with the M.O. of the Dark Powers - torture of villains via their own personal failings not for the sake of reform, but for the funsies. Ravenloft is less likely to inflict new wounds than it is to make the old wounds vastly worse. A miserable, self-pitying death knight becomes a useless pile of armor. A narcissistic lich pulls the equivalent of a pissing contest with an elephant. Any Dreadlord you care to name is probably going to be that much more obsessed, that much more destructively stupid, and that much more desperate.

Edit: Rereading the OP, it seems like the escapee was not a Dreadlord, in which case escape is really nothing remarkable. The Dark Powers frequently sweep up adventurers for a few sessions, then drop them off if they still happen to be alive.

[Telonius]

The "escape" is an experiment. Shortly before she "got out," an agent of the Dark Powers spoke to her. "You know, we've all heard the stories of people getting out, or seeing the outside for a bit and then coming back. Legends, bits of hope. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't just to torment us. What if the outside is just an illusion, and the ones who saw the outside were just getting a false vision? I mean, if you ever did make it out, how would you even know for sure that it's real?"

The Dark Powers are observing her to see what happens. Their hope is that even on another plane, she's tormented by the fear of returning and doubts in her own sanity; that no matter how bright her future is, that dark cloud is going to hang over it. If that's happened, then she hasn't really left Ravenloft. As long as that fear is there, she's brought it with her. It might even be a more sadistic torture than keeping them in Ravenloft. (There's some rumor of Asmodeus keeping a close eye on the results as well).

For her personality, might have the sneaking suspicion that reality is gaslighting her, paranoia that everything she has might be taken away at any moment. She might disbelieve good things that are happening to her.

[ExLibrisMortis]

For her personality, might have the sneaking suspicion that reality is gaslighting her, paranoia that everything she has might be taken away at any moment. She might disbelieve good things that are happening to her.
You could build a neat flaw out of this.

Dark Disbelief
Whenever you are affected by a beneficial spell, ability, or effect, you must succeed on a Will save, or lose the benefit of the effect, as you cannot believe good things happen to you. The DC of the save equals that of the spell, ability, or effect, or the save it would have if it allowed one, if it doesn't already.


Bit steep for one bonus feat? I suppose you could pump your Will to negate, but it's certainly painful until you do.

[AnonymousPepper]

You could build a neat flaw out of this.

Dark Disbelief
Whenever you are affected by a beneficial spell, ability, or effect, you must succeed on a Will save, or lose the benefit of the effect, as you cannot believe good things happen to you. The DC of the save equals that of the spell, ability, or effect, or the save it would have if it allowed one, if it doesn't already.


Bit steep for one bonus feat? I suppose you could pump your Will to negate, but it's certainly painful until you do.

Sweet Jesus that's evil. :eek:

E: If you wanted to lessen the effect of it a little bit to make it still pretty awful but not completely devastating, a successful Diplomacy check (so, not in-combat without some real diplomancy) of, say, DC(somewhere between 10 and 15 maybe?)+her character level (or maybe half character level?) prior to casting the effect to reassure her might negate the save or at least give her a bonus on the roll.

[Psyren]

You could build a neat flaw out of this.

Dark Disbelief
Whenever you are affected by a beneficial spell, ability, or effect, you must succeed on a Will save, or lose the benefit of the effect, as you cannot believe good things happen to you. The DC of the save equals that of the spell, ability, or effect, or the save it would have if it allowed one, if it doesn't already.


Bit steep for one bonus feat? I suppose you could pump your Will to negate, but it's certainly painful until you do.


Sweet Jesus that's evil. :eek:

E: If you wanted to lessen the effect of it a little bit to make it still pretty awful but not completely devastating, a successful Diplomacy check (so, not in-combat without some real diplomancy) of, say, DC(somewhere between 10 and 15 maybe?)+her character level (or maybe half character level?) prior to casting the effect to reassure her might negate the save or at least give her a bonus on the roll.

Pathfinder's version (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/drawbacks/superstitious/) makes it a 50% chance before you need to save. I'd probably go with that.

[unseenmage]

Those're fantastic ideas! Thank you!

[Bronk]

Your kobold could be only temporarily out of Ravenloft... It could be pulled back at any time, and it could be right to be paranoid about it.

Maybe it's been cast out as a kind of fishing lure, and the mists will come back one day to claim any new companions or friends it has made in the meantime.

Perhaps part of the kobold's new pathos is that he knows this, but can't help but make new friends anyway. If the kobold is 'good', it can't help but keep doing good deeds even though it knows those it comes into contact with will now be on Ravenloft's radar. If the kobold is more neutral or evil, he might have a more conflicted view of his comrades, not wanting to bring them into the grim Ravenloft where their souls will be ground down to nothing, but also feeling that being in Ravenloft wouldn't be so bad with its new crew, whether they like it or not.

[thethird]

I'm not entirely certain, I read them a long time ago, but has anyone read the Ravenloft novels? Wasn't there an elf that got out?

[ryu]

I'm not entirely certain, I read them a long time ago, but has anyone read the Ravenloft novels? Wasn't there an elf that got out?

If you're talking about the elven vampire he could be said to have gotten out. I forget, death still sends you to your appropriate afterlife right?

[thorr-kan]

You know the OotS comic where Elan runs around w/o clothing since it makes him invisible?

This. This is your Ravenloft escapee. They are bug<bleep>crazy now. :)

[atemu1234]

It really depends? A normal person might never recover, go Lovecraft-style catatonic and spend the rest of their life paranoid, or worse, end their own lives in case the Dark Powers decide they want to come after them. In other words, a very interesting posthumous NPC.

The more powerful characters would probably still be paranoid, but in a much less powerless way. They'd want to avoid the mists at all costs, but how they avoid it might vary.

[afroakuma]

I was called to this thread, but I'm not entirely certain why... it looks like the question just pertains to what kinds of behavior a character might exhibit after a long and likely traumatic experience. Is there more to it than that?

[Psyren]

I was called to this thread, but I'm not entirely certain why... it looks like the question just pertains to what kinds of behavior a character might exhibit after a long and likely traumatic experience. Is there more to it than that?

As I understood it, the OP wanted two things:

1) Potential ways to escape / examples of people escaping Ravenloft.
2) Any Ravenloft-specific effects such would have on a person.

For the second, our examples of escapees have generally been... let's be charitable and say rather singular individuals, so it's difficult to isolate what special effect RL itself may have had (if any.)

[Blackhawk748]

As I understood it, the OP wanted two things:

1) Potential ways to escape / examples of people escaping Ravenloft.
2) Any Ravenloft-specific effects such would have on a person.

For the second, our examples of escapees have generally been... let's be charitable and say rather singular individuals, so it's difficult to isolate what special effect RL itself may have had (if any.)

Didnt either Soth or Vecna go back into Ravenloft and get out yet again? Also i almost suspect it has something to do with wandering out far into the Mists on the edge of the plain, but Ravenloft is weird.

[Hecuba]

If you cared about getting out, then the powers would have been tormenting you with the false promises of it for a relative eternity. You would never really believe you left, deep down.

Alternately, consider how you escaped and what it says about how human/oid you really are anymore. The powers got rid of Soth because his belief in the justness of his torment bored them. Only Veena forced their hand, and only by nearly destroying the demiplane. You want to get out? You better have a very, very big reality ripple at minimum. At which point, really, you must have become an outsider - one of the most alien kinds of being there are. If everything you are becomes an abstract representation of say the cosmic force of law, if you become subsumed by an inhuman ideal, it's it really you that's escaping anymore? How much of what you were did you have to leave behind to get out?

[Brookshw]

Is there actual documentation about Vecna and Soth having been to Ravenloft?

Soth: adventure "When Black Roses Bloom", listed in campaign box set, had a novel I don't recall the name of.

Vecna: comes up in Die Vecna Die adventure series.

As to the OP, ways out of Ravenloft crop up a lot in the adventures (or maybe its the Powers making you think you left), I wouldn't read too much into it. Many experienced adventurers have seen/done worse elsewhere so generic ptsd or whatever passes for that seems apt. But tone wise gothic horror does kind of leave a protagonist scarred and looking over their shoulder so kudos to anyone who roleplays that up (but isn't paranoia already the elixir of life for adventurers?).

[Calthropstu]

The only surefire way is to literally end ravenloft. And if you did that, you'd be releasing some of the worst baddies in existence.

[ksbsnowowl]

Is there actual documentation about Vecna and Soth having been to Ravenloft?


Soth: adventure "When Black Roses Bloom", listed in campaign box set, had a novel I don't recall the name of.

Vecna: comes up in Die Vecna Die adventure series.


Just adding more, because there is a lot more.

Soth:

Adventure: When Black Roses Bloom
Domains of Dread: Soth and his domain of Sithicus are detailed.
Novel: Knight of the Black Rose
Novel: Spectre of the Black Rose


Vecna:

Adventure: Vecna Reborn
Adventure: Die Vecna, Die
Domains of Dread: Vecna & his domain of Cavitus are detailed as part of the Burning Peaks cluster (along with Kas' Tovag)


(Interesting side note... the Greyhawk mystical ruin site Tovag Baragu is important to the plot of Vecna Lives... I just noticed the seeming correlation to Kas' domain of Tovag...)

Also, for those not in the know, Domains of Dread is basically a revised version of the Ravenloft Campaign boxed set info, incorporating the changes that occurred to the setting due to the events of the Grand Conjunction. It is basically the last version of the setting published before the end of 2nd edition.

gkathellar's summary is excellent, and displays the fact that the escape of Dreadlords is rare, but the escape of random nobody adventurers is actually quite common in the lore. Second Edition Ravenloft adventures basically came in two flavors: "Encapsulated setting" (for lack of a better term; the adventurers are Ravenloft natives, and no one enters or leaves the demiplane), and "weekend in hell" (the Mists scoop up your Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms party for a side-quest in Ravenloft for a few sessions, then deposit you back in your normal world after they are done using you as their tools).

To add to his excellent summary of the escapes of Vecna and Lord Soth, there is the canon-rectifying/retconning explanation of the module I10, Ravenloft II: The House on Gryphon Hill. There are different takes on how to rectify this module in the canon, and some take the view that Strahd and Azalin's magical experiment did indeed succeed in having them escape the Domains of Dread, but some slight fault in it allowed the Mists to find them again on the distant world to which they had escaped, and it resulted in them getting pulled back into Ravenloft, along with the township of Mordent, and its surrounding lands.

So, to summarize once again, Dreadlords don't escape easily or often. Random adventurers drawn in from other realms get out relatively "easily."

As far as a mechanical aspect to the effects this might have on someone that escaped the Domains of Dread, when I ran a campaign where the PC's were from the same world as Mordent, and they were effectively partaking in the canon escape period of Strahd in the events of The House on Gryphon Hill, I utilized the Depravity (taint) rules from Heroes of Horror. It worked alright. If your group is more role play focused, and could play up the horror aspects well on their own (or it's you running an NPC), then the taint rules probably aren't needed, but some form of psychosis or horrible phobia of fog would be good places to start. You stated this kobold mech pilot is now using it to power a "steam" boat. Having her freak out or go near catatonic any time the ship sailed into foggy weather would be an interesting way to display it.

[Coidzor]

They should have a habitual distrust of strangers and suspect them of being secret elven cannibals, werewolves, vampires, vampire-werewolves, cleverly made flesh golems, and other such things.

They may even suspect the universe of actively retconning what people are or believe or are like, such that even if they're convinced someone isn't actually some form of monster this time, the process will repeat the next time they see them.

[Telonius]

They should have a habitual distrust of strangers and suspect them of being secret elven cannibals, werewolves, vampires, vampire-werewolves, cleverly made flesh golems, and other such things.

They may even suspect the universe of actively retconning what people are or believe or are like, such that even if they're convinced someone isn't actually some form of monster this time, the process will repeat the next time they see them.

This seems to be pretty common even among adventurers who haven't been to Ravenloft.

[Glorthindel]

Just adding more, because there is a lot more.

Soth:

Adventure: When Black Roses Bloom
Domains of Dread: Soth and his domain of Sithicus are detailed.
Novel: Knight of the Black Rose
Novel: Spectre of the Black Rose



For those interested in Soth, the opening of 'Knight of the Black Rose' replays the conclusion of 'Test of the Twins' (dragonlance legends volume 3), but from Lord Soth's viewpoint instead of Tanis's, and explains how he is drawn into Ravenloft
as he leaves the Tower of High Sorcery in Palanthas with Kitiara's body

[JyP]

If I recall correctly, the only 3.5 book dealing with gothic horror may be Heroes of Horror - with a taint system which is essentially granting flaws and bonus feats.

There are physical and mental taints described in there, I think it would match your kobold.

[illyahr]

Have you seen the first Silent Hill movie? Even after they were allowed to leave, a bit of Silent Hill followed them and prevented them from interacting with the rest of the world.

You could say that some of the Mists of Ravenloft followed the character, pulling minor Ravenloft shenanigans in the real world. The character will never be completely free of that dark plane.

[afroakuma]

Is there actual documentation about Vecna and Soth having been to Ravenloft? I'm not doubting or challenging you, I'm honestly interested in reading it, and reading about how if messed them up.

Arguably it didn't mess Vecna up perceptibly, given that even at the time of his ingress he was ridiculously powerful and building a legitimate scheme to escape and do something else grandiose as part of the bargain. Conversely, of course, Vecna's ultimate bid for control of the multiverse was undermined by his own artifacts, and though he ended up free of Ravenloft he came out of the whole experience humiliated and with his treacherous lieutenant Kas forever out of his reach; he's also a lesser power in a cosmos that knows what he did and how close he came to imperiling all of them, and arguably maintains his security in no small part by collecting blackmail opportunities and backdoors to indirectly antagonize those who would threaten him.

In other words, his time in Ravenloft saw him ascend from terrifying overlord on Oerth to back-alley scavenger deity. Yes, that's underselling his ascension to a significant degree (let's be fair, he's still a god) but for someone like Vecna, who was in his own mind close to becoming the ultimate power in the whole multiverse, that's got to be how it feels. One almost has to wonder if the Dark Powers left that backdoor in place for just such an opportunity. Vecna got out, but it'll never be enough.

As for Soth, the Dark Powers found that their torments actually worked a bit too well on him - the Darklord pursued methods of escaping from the distorted retellings of his failures that drew him into an endless reverie of false dreams. The Dark Powers found agents to destroy Soth's memory mirrors and set themselves to ensuring that he would never imperil the existence of his domain with that sort of negligence again. Despite this, Soth disdained rule, caring only for his increasingly hollow hunger for the phantasm that eluded him, and an unlikely confluence of events - undoubtedly stirred to some extent by the Dark Powers - provided Soth with the opportunity for release from Ravenloft, if he but proved that he was broken and that a more suitable ruler could be found. And so it was: Soth was freed of the curse that had originally trapped him in the Mists, reclaimed his true memories with the provocation of a spirit from his past, and recognized his own monstrosity even as he retreaded every step of his original failures.

The Dark Powers released Soth from Ravenloft, and some time much later, it appears that Soth claimed some small measure of redemption. Whether he proved a successful case study of some arcane purpose, or whether this story made him a failed candidate in the eyes of the Dark Powers, none can really say.


You could say that some of the Mists of Ravenloft followed the character, pulling minor Ravenloft shenanigans in the real world. The character will never be completely free of that dark plane.

The Mists don't do that; however, I like to think that any exposure to Ravenloft has the perverse quality of being an indelible stain on the mind - even those possessed of the means to eliminate such memories choose not to do so, for fear that forgetting about the entrapping Mists and the horrors beyond may doom them to wander back in. The risk of refusing to remember is too great.

[unseenmage]

Am really appreciating all the discussion and ideas. Has all been quite informative and useful. I had heard about Vecna's sojourn in but had no idea about Soth, let alone who that was.

That the mists relinquish anyone at all was news to me. There are some unique 3rd party crafting options that certain reality traipsing characters of mine would love to get their greedy mitts on that are native to parts of the Demiplane of Dread. But I've always been under the impression that getting in was easy and getting out again stretched disbelief so have never tried.
(Cannot remember what they're called but they're basically the battery powered mundane equivalent of magic items.)

So yeah, maybe a grocery run orf summer vacation there is still out of the question but that escape is possible/plausible is good to know.

Edit: Are the mists a mechanism of the Plane itself's planar mechanics or are they commanded by a sentience(s) of some kind?
Planar rules requireing a different category of magics to fool than intelligence(s).

[afroakuma]

That the mists relinquish anyone at all was news to me.

Eh, many adventures offered a way out for DMs who just wanted to have their parties dip their toes into the setting. The common thread linking most of these is that exit is permitted only if one's purpose for being brought to Ravenloft was fulfilled - that is, if the Dark Powers have no more use for you. Note that this makes straight-up walking in a really stupid idea, since you were never part of the plan and the Dark Powers probably don't feel the need to permit you to leave.


There are some unique 3rd party crafting options that certain reality traipsing characters of mine would love to get their greedy mitts on that are native to parts of the Demiplane of Dread. But I've always been under the impression that getting in was easy and getting out again stretched disbelief so have never tried.

Pfft. I wouldn't recommend deliberately heading there for anything so trivial. There are, as noted, many ways to leave, but it's not a clean experience, and those who escape the Mists do not always find themselves returned where they may expect. One escape sent adventurers back in time some two or three decades; Soth's departure is said to have returned him to shortly around the moment he was first taken. Escape routes may have particular destinations calibrated, and they may not be the one you want. Opportunities for escape have the bad habit of being monitored by, if not outright created by, the darklords - and they're not too keen on letting others gain from their frustrated ambitions.

As for the methods Soth and Vecna used... Vecna's escape route is now literally impossible; the exploit he used has been repaired, and it was a pretty bespoke method to begin with. Soth didn't intentionally escape; he was effectively evicted as part of a major domain-level calamity that totalled his castle and inducted a new darklord in his place.


Edit: Are the mists a mechanism of the Plane itself's planar mechanics or are they commanded by a sentience(s) of some kind?
Planar rules requireing a different category of magics to fool than intelligence(s).

The Mists can't be fooled. Whatever force coordinates them, it's either the Dark Powers themselves or something they instituted - by definition beyond the capabilities of statted characters to influence.