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Partysan
2007-08-14, 06:42 PM
I am currently playing a dex-based melee combatant in a high power pre-epic campaign (using ultimate classes and fantastic feat fix of Szatany from the wotc boards).
During that campaign we tried to get a kind of evil artifact (oh right, evil group, forgot to mention) that was guarded by a solar. Now I knew that we could not defeat him but he was kind of a pelor-type as he was polite and refused to attack us if we didn't attack him or tried ro grab the artifact so we could tease him all the time.
Now I talked to him quite a time about good and evil and so on and actually got our DM stuck in the discussion (and he is a master talker) and so the solar got stuck too. I managed to talk to him in a way that he lost his believe in the Good. So he lost all of his angelic powers.:smallcool:

Questions are:

Would you let a player get away with that?
Do you actually think that a Solar can fall?
Do you think that we should defeat him/our DM wanted us to? (because we wouldn't have had a chance, after all he was CR 22 the least)
And... do you think I should get tje XP for defeating him that way? :smallbiggrin: :smallwink:

Dervag
2007-08-14, 06:49 PM
I would think that an angel is no more likely to be persuaded to fall than a devil is to be persuaded to rise. Good alignment is wired into their nature; they are as sure of their alignment as of their own name. It should require epic-level effects to change an angel's alignment.

But if you pull it off you deserve XP.

Zeful
2007-08-14, 06:54 PM
1: Yes I'd let a player do so.
2: No I don't think a solar could fall.
3: No, if you can't beat them join them, or failing that, have them join you.
4: Yes, you overcame the encounter, thus experiance.

Corolinth
2007-08-14, 06:55 PM
The fact that he's stumped on a question shouldn't cause a real angel to fall from grace. Chaotic and lawful angels stump one another all the time.

Yes, a solar can fall and become evil. That's actually the premise for the archdukes of Hell in the second Fiendish Codex. A mortal asking a puzzling question is not sufficient, however.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-14, 06:59 PM
What sort of argument did you use?

PinkysBrain
2007-08-14, 07:00 PM
Would you let a player get away with that?
Nah, he's not a robot and you are not James T. Kirk confusing him with a seeming paradox :)

Do you actually think that a Solar can fall?
Sure, but his powers aren't alignment powered ... he would have to shift deities for his clerical casting, but in the mean time he can still use all his already prepared spells.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-14, 07:03 PM
In order:
-Just because you out-argue the DM doesn't necessarily mean you talk rings around the NPC. Talking a Solar into alignment change is presumably possible in theory, but shouldn't be that easy. Where by 'that easy' I mean 'in any sense likely to have happened in the entire history of the multiverse'.

-A Solar can definitely change alignment. Which of its abilities, if any, it should lose or change as a result is an interesting question...probably its clerical spellcasting, at least, should go away until it atonements to it's new alignment.

-Unless there was a special gadget you were expected to obtain to equalize things somehow, hopefully you weren't supposed to win that by opposing the angel. Though if you were on the high side of level 15, it might be beatable.

-If you overcame the obstacle, and it sounds like you did...yes, you should get some sort of XP. Probably not based on the normal CR of the creature, since it never posed a combat threat.

Partysan
2007-08-14, 07:08 PM
Well, I consider it more than a puzzling question... we had a 20 minutes in-character argument in which I managed to kind of "prove" that good deeds produce more evil than good in the world and thus his work is actually damaging... my whole argument is tied to my characters background and would require much time to explain but I think that is a sufficient summary.

We didn't roll a single die... however I had a higher Intelligence than the solar.., maybe that helped a bit.

EDIT: We are lvl 20, but heavily non-optimized (a necromancer (that wasn't there at that time, he's the DM's character), a bard, a druid/blighter/shifter and my multi-weapon-fighter) so that in combat I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have made it.

Arbitrarity
2007-08-14, 07:10 PM
How do good deeds cause more evil in the world than a lack of action? :smallconfused:

Ah, Ok. Too lengthy to explain. Nvm.

Orzel
2007-08-14, 07:23 PM
1) No. A none-pic character wouldn't have the skill to talk a Solar into falling
2) Yes, that's a major issue in many religion and the point of the most of the high level demon in the book But there are few reason for it happening.
3) If you can't win, don't try.
4) You shouldn't have been able to do it in the first place. But since you did do it, you should get XP.

Many writings of angel give/mention them next to no free will. It usually takes the angel having the desire to break a major belief to change their minds. Like "I'm a deity now" major. It would be hard for 1 mortal to change an angel evil by talking to it because a topic that could make an angel would get the mortal killed for blasphemy or committing a major sin by talking about it for too long.

SilverClawShift
2007-08-14, 07:28 PM
It would be hard for 1 mortal to change an angel evil by talking to it because a topic that could make an angel would get the mortal killed for blasphemy or committing a major sin by talking about it for too long.

Ah, but it was no ordinary mortal.

It was a PC :smallwink:

Orzel
2007-08-14, 07:32 PM
Ah, but it was no ordinary mortal.

It was a PC :smallwink:

A PC without divine ranks

Driderman
2007-08-14, 07:36 PM
I can't help but think of the game Planescape:Torment

Where the main character has the option to do the opposite, redeem a fallen Deva, and does so with but a single sentence: Have you forgotten the face of your father, Trias?

Yes I believe that things like celestials and fiends can fall, whether up or down. Even Inevitables could conceivably lose their way, although it would take some effort. I'd say unless you had some very, VERY persuasive arguments it'd be highly unlikely, but it is possible.
In this particular scenario, I might consider the Solar rather 'Tripped' than 'Fallen'. He may have begun to doubt his way, but why should that stop him from reasserting his views as soon as he sees the slightest proof that good is as good as he always thought so?

I'm thinking if your DM let you do this, there's probably a good reason. Or maybe he just realised that the Solar would cream you in a fight and decided not to do a total party kill. As I said, a good reason :)
And since you did overcome a quest obstacle, yes, xp are in order

Xefas
2007-08-14, 07:40 PM
A lvl 20 PC is hardly "mortal" in the normal sense. I think after you play for a while you become desensitized to what exactly "lvl 20" means. A normal guy is around level 1 or 2. The greatest people in modern times are only around lvl 5 or 6.

A lvl 20 character is suppose to be capable of feats far surpassing anything imaginable. They are legendary in every sense of the word. They splinter continents, they overthrow kings, they make wyrms bow before them, and they, most certainly, could cause a Solar to fall.

Maybe not a 20 minute discussion...but still. I think that Partysan should succeed and get a buttload of XP for it. However, I believe that the DM should have the Solar travel with them for a while afterwards, slowly being corrupted by Partysan's character. The 20 minute discussion should be all it takes on the players part, but the character has to have some "off-screen" time to "really" do it.

Just Alex
2007-08-14, 07:44 PM
While I think that creatures like demons, devils, archons and the like shouldn't have alignment changes on the whole, I can see situations that cause alignment changes. Heck, in one of the WotC campaign modules, there's a fallen archon (Lord of the Iron Fortress, I think). Going back a little bit, Torment had a non-evil succubus. This should be extra rare. NPC's have emotions and thoughts and can be affected by the world around them. Regardless, I think it'd take a bit more than a philosophical dilemma to cause an solar to fall.

PMDM
2007-08-14, 07:53 PM
You know, no one ever thinks that slaad can see a pattern in the world.....

Anyway, you have to keep in mind that outsiders are literally made out of the plane they're from. It's neigh impossible. The last time celestials fell, it marked a huge shift in the cosmology.

Plus, keep in mind that the Solar usually has been living for thousands of years. You think just because you had a tough break with life will make a solar change sides instantly? He's seen countless acts of good. One act gone astray won't make him change.

Finally, no one jumps 2 steps in alignment. Ever. The angel should now be TN. Confused, but not lost. Even in the great fall, most celestials went neutral. Not evil.

SilverClawShift
2007-08-14, 07:54 PM
Having a sense of humor can be an epic level challenge.

Pokemaster
2007-08-14, 08:00 PM
1- Since even a level 20 party probably wouldn't get past a Solar's damage reduction, I'm assuming that the DM planned for the party to talk it out somehow, so I would allow it.

2- Probably not. In order to work, a Solar would have to see physical evidence of Good's failures (which would probably have to be engineered by a high-ranking Devil specifically looking to make the Solar fall). Even if you need manage to outroll the Solar's +34 Diplomacy and +30 Sense Motive checks, it probably wouldn't be enough for it to abandon its duties and give up on Good.

3- Doubtful. It probably wouldn't have been possible without epic-level weapons.

4- Why not?

PaladinBoy
2007-08-14, 08:15 PM
I'd be inclined to agree with the crowd that's saying that just because you can confound the DM in a moral discussion does not mean that your character can confound a solar in a moral discussion. Without knowing more about your character and the argument you used, however, I would be willing to admit that it is within the realm of possibility.

As for your questions:
1- Very doubtful. I like to imagine that I am a skilled debater, and I, as the DM, would be playing the solar. I have thought about and debated moral issues before and would feel no compunctions about using the BoED for inspiration. I don't believe anyone I play with could actually convince the solar (played by me) that evil was better than good. The only way I can see it happening is if the players came up with an elaborate plot solely designed to tempt the solar to evil.

2- Yes. It is possible, but very, very difficult, to get a solar to fall. Really, they are pure Good personified. Getting them to go against Good would be well-nigh impossible......... but that doesn't mean it can't be done by very powerful evil beings, particularly if temptation is exactly what their plots are designed to do.

3- Can't say. The fact that it worked at all probably means that he wasn't too annoyed with it, as it would have been very simple to say that it didn't work if he didn't want it to.

4- You overcome the challenge, you get the XP. I'm assuming that a 20 minute in character debate was enough of a challenge to merit the typical award for a solar.

SurlySeraph
2007-08-14, 08:20 PM
There was a Fallen Solar in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Baal. So yes, Solar's can fall (at least, in video games based on 2E).

Aquillion
2007-08-14, 08:59 PM
First, I know it's sad to say this... but an epic conversational feat like that really should require some sort of diplomacy roll. Yeah, yeah, it's not really good for roleplaying, but what use is Cha and cha-based skills if your DM just lets you fake them by talking well in RP? You couldn't make your character perform an epic feat of strength by lifting up the table you're playing at one-handed; you couldn't convince your DM to let your character perform an epic feat of dex by dancing real well. Epic Cha feats should require epic Cha, not just good RP. I strongly suspect that one of the reasons why so many non-caster builds tend to dump Charisma is because so many DMs will just let your diplomacy check slide if you, the player, are good at talking.

Aside from that, though... while you might be able to talk an angel into falling, I'd be more inclined to just let players convince an angel on one specific point (for instance: You must let me grab that weapon for the greater good).

Obviously, no matter how they get past the angel, the PCs should get full xp if they get the MacGuffin and get away with it. Players are rewarded xp for overcoming challenges and achieving goals, not for mindless killing. (Although, I suppose, for an evil character mindless killing could itself be a goal.)

Oh, and for the PST reference above, I think you chose the wrong one.This reminds me more of talking Vhailor out of existence by convincing him there is no such thing as justice, really.

MrNexx
2007-08-14, 09:40 PM
I can't help but think of the game Planescape:Torment

Where the main character has the option to do the opposite, redeem a fallen Deva, and does so with but a single sentence: Have you forgotten the face of your father, Trias?

The bit I remembered was the recovered memory, where you convinced someone he didn't exist.

UserClone
2007-08-14, 09:44 PM
While we're on (or off, as the case may be) the subject, can anyone who played PST think of a justified reason NOT to max your wisdom right off the bat in that game?

Drider
2007-08-14, 09:54 PM
While we're on (or off, as the case may be) the subject, can anyone who played PST think of a justified reason NOT to max your wisdom right off the bat in that game?

To be a rebel

UserClone
2007-08-14, 10:14 PM
meh, only justified if you intended to be straight rogue-
that way you can have that nifty barbed mace with the confusing and the hoyven.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-14, 10:39 PM
Two words: Ethical Paradox.

Best case scenario (for the PC): You blow their mind and they start to question everything they thought they knew... They fall to neutral, at best.

Worse case scenario: They're perfectly fine with the 1 step back, two steps forward philosophy of good.

I would say that convincing a heavenly being, who is by their very nature, good, or a demonic being to rise/fall, would be an immensely epic level challenge, and would be beyond our abilities, as players and DMs, to even fathom... thus... make a epicly high DC Diplomacy check.

Dervag
2007-08-14, 10:46 PM
The fact that he's stumped on a question shouldn't cause a real angel to fall from grace. Chaotic and lawful angels stump one another all the time.Think about real people who hold some firm conviction. The first unanswerable question is likely to be shrugged off; only a very consistent pattern of unanswerable questions can shake someone who is already firmly convinced of something under normal circumstances.

Now imagine how much more difficult it would be to shake the beliefs of someone who knows that they are a powerful, wise, immortal being and that the questioner is a very fallible, brief mortal.

Would you let a parrot alter your political opinions by asking you awkward questions?


In order:
-Just because you out-argue the DM doesn't necessarily mean you talk rings around the NPC. Talking a Solar into alignment change is presumably possible in theory, but shouldn't be that easy. Where by 'that easy' I mean 'in any sense likely to have happened in the entire history of the multiverse'.Oh, it could happen. Asmodeus could probably do it, given plenty of time, and assuming that the solar didn't automatically stop listening to him once it realized what was going on.

But what the king of Hell can do and what a PC can do are almost certainly not the same thing.


It would be hard for 1 mortal to change an angel evil by talking to it because a topic that could make an angel would get the mortal killed for blasphemy or committing a major sin by talking about it for too long.Well, my idea of an angel wouldn't necessarily kill the mortal. But they would stop listening.

In my opinion, the epitomes of good aren't going to kill people out of hand for talking; after all, "they know not what they do." Angels aren't just Lawful Stupid paladins writ large.


Ah, but it was no ordinary mortal.

It was a PC :smallwink:I know you're joking, but I actually think that if the PC were approximately as good at persuasion as the most powerful and persuasive of devils, then such a PC could, as an epic-level task, talk a solar into falling. But that's the Diplomacy equivalent of swimming up a waterfall; a feat which is only possible for a character of nigh-divine skill.


In this particular scenario, I might consider the Solar rather 'Tripped' than 'Fallen'. He may have begun to doubt his way, but why should that stop him from reasserting his views as soon as he sees the slightest proof that good is as good as he always thought so?That makes more sense. A mortal of non-epic skill might be able to make a solar doubt itself, or to confuse a solar, if they were extremely clever. That's about the most effect they could hope for IMO.


A lvl 20 character is suppose to be capable of feats far surpassing anything imaginable. They are legendary in every sense of the word. They splinter continents, they overthrow kings, they make wyrms bow before them, and they, most certainly, could cause a Solar to fall.The thing is that convincing a Solar to fall is probably going to be even harder than killing it, and killing a Solar is a formidable challenge even for a 20th level character.

Xuincherguixe
2007-08-14, 11:26 PM
There's also no reason to assume that the Solar is even responsive to questions. It could have taken double think to a whole new level. It may simply be too set in it's ways to change.

skywalker
2007-08-14, 11:40 PM
There's also no reason to assume that the Solar is even responsive to questions. It could have taken double think to a whole new level. It may simply be too set in it's ways to change.


This reminds me of the time I decided that Celestial was equivalent to doublespeak.


More on topic, I agree with the rest of them, I don't think you've got a chance at making him fall. Although it sounds like the DM already said the solar got pretty mentally messed up. I'd still say he gets pouty, at most. Most of the time, when you confuse someone who's been as involved, and believed as deeply as a solar has, you can literally shatter the foundations of their beliefs and they will still require time to come to terms, or more proof.

On a side note, Book of Exalted Deeds is not that good a source for thoughts on goodness, IMHO.

Aquillion
2007-08-14, 11:56 PM
Maybe the Solar was faking it as part of a larger plan to turn the PC to good. The "fallen" angel travels with the party, talking to them about this and that, and before they know it they've been ensnared in the canny wiles of the upper planes and turned to the side of goodness.

...nothing says that Good can't be sneaky now and then.

Paragon Badger
2007-08-15, 01:29 AM
...nothing says that Good can't be sneaky now and then.

Woo, Lord Shojo!

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 01:44 AM
Maybe the Solar was faking it as part of a larger plan to turn the PC to good. The "fallen" angel travels with the party, talking to them about this and that, and before they know it they've been ensnared in the canny wiles of the upper planes and turned to the side of goodness.

...nothing says that Good can't be sneaky now and then.

I think that this and the "seed of doubt" possibility are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they work awfully well together; since archons are capital-L Lawful, and solars are the epitome of Archon-hood, a wholly pure solar would probably never think of or consider a plan like the one above. In other words, my opinion can be summed up by the phrase "a little from column A, a little from column B."

Oh, and it opens up the opportunity for more awesome roleplaying back-and-forth.

EDIT: and some neat little hooks, "You've been corrupted by them, Arakiel! Why else would you leave your post?"
"I have remained pure! These are powerful warriors, and I thought that it would be more noble to convert them than to kill them..."
"I can detect your lies, Arakiel. Prepare for retribution--"
"I am not lying! (oh****oh****oh****oh***--)"

Grey Paladin
2007-08-15, 06:01 AM
Your problem is that you assume Outsiders use standard logic, think of this this way:
The Solar is hard-wired to take the fact Good is Superior to Evil as an Axiom, no matter what that will still seem true to him, and if someone says otherwise the outsider will see all they say as wrong since no matter what this must remain true.

Trying to convince a Solar to become Evil is like trying to convince a computer that 1 is not an option.

blackout
2007-08-15, 06:02 AM
Dude, you made an angel fall?! :smallamused: Way to go.

Tokiko Mima
2007-08-15, 11:43 AM
If you could talk an epic level illithid necromancer into permanently giving up his profession, becoming a mundane doctor, or joining a good aligned church, then I think you'd have about the level of negotiating skill required to talk a celestial power into being evil. You'd also be capable of doing the reverse, creating an argument that results in Demogorgon deciding to retire into a life of quiet contemplation at the foot of Mount Celestia.

It's not very likely that such a thing would ever happen in the course of human history, but there is a slim chance it might happen once. IMO.

Krrth
2007-08-15, 01:22 PM
It would be kinda hard to do. After all, as mentioned, these guys are hardwired to being good. Can they fall? Yes. Is it likely to happen because of a PC? No. Mechanincs aside, all he has to do go home and talk to the powers there. I dare say they are smarter than any PC, and could explain any difficulty quite easily.

Telonius
2007-08-15, 01:51 PM
If "Falling" is a possibility at all for Solars, a player can induce them to do it (given a sufficiently high check, sufficiently good roleplaying, or both). I'd say it would be darn near impossible for a low-level character, no matter how good the RP; and just barely on the outskirts of possibility around level 20 (and that's if the Solar had a bad day). Into the Epic levels, it could happen. Same way with redeeming devils/demons/etc.

Duke Malagigi
2007-08-15, 02:35 PM
If you could talk an epic level illithid necromancer into permanently giving up his profession, becoming a mundane doctor, or joining a good aligned church, then I think you'd have about the level of negotiating skill required to talk a celestial power into being evil. You'd also be capable of doing the reverse, creating an argument that results in Demogorgon deciding to retire into a life of quiet contemplation at the foot of Mount Celestia.

It's not very likely that such a thing would ever happen in the course of human history, but there is a slim chance it might happen once. IMO.

Actually you would have to convince said illithid necromancer to use his necromantic studies to provide aid, comfort and healing for the living and convince him to stop eating people's brains. Good aligned necromancers should be much more common than Good aligned illithids.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-15, 09:48 PM
I do agree what if the solar is manipulating the party to becom good. but also a good relationship to the can a solar be corrupted is Issac Azimov, ok a bit sci fi here but most people know azimov's three laws of robotics.
1. a robot can't harm a person or allow them to come to harm through in action
2 realy doesnt matter here
3 a robot must preserve its existance.
there are some people who persuade a robot to kill itself by demonstrating that what a robot does is that it soffens people by not allowing them to get injured and so in the long run it ruins the human race. they then give the robot a blaster and tell it to pull the trigger. This is on par with that or maybe even harder but same idea

Dervag
2007-08-15, 10:24 PM
This reminds me of the time I decided that Celestial was equivalent to doublespeak.What's your reasoning? I don't get it.


I'd still say he gets pouty, at most.Solars do not 'pout'. Pouting is undignified. No, solars stride away, proclaiming that they will think on your words.


I do agree what if the solar is manipulating the party to becom good. but also a good relationship to the can a solar be corrupted is Issac Azimov, ok a bit sci fi here but most people know azimov's three laws of robotics.
1. a robot can't harm a person or allow them to come to harm through in action
2 realy doesnt matter here
3 a robot must preserve its existance.
there are some people who persuade a robot to kill itself by demonstrating that what a robot does is that it soffens people by not allowing them to get injured and so in the long run it ruins the human race. they then give the robot a blaster and tell it to pull the trigger. This is on par with that or maybe even harder but same ideaConvincing an Asimovian robot to kill itself is easy, because Rule Two is important:

"A robot must obey orders given to them by a human, except where those orders would conflict with the First Law."

Therefore, if you tell a robot to smash itself to bits with a hammer, it will, continuing to smash itself until it is unable to keep smashing. If you tell a robot that its existence is incompatible with the First Law in such a way that it cannot dismiss your argument by default, it will likewise smash itself.

One of Asimov's robot stories actually ended this way, with a robot being caught in a logic loop where a person convinced it that either action or inaction will result in harm to a human being, and it more or less collapses as a result.

This works because the robot is hardwired to listen to and to obey humans. A solar is not. Moreover, a solar's mind is presumably more flexible than that of an Asimov robot; the solar has superhuman intelligence and wisdom, and is presumably capable of rejecting a logical paradox rather than getting stuck in it.

Iudex Fatarum
2007-08-16, 02:11 PM
The third of the robot novels stated that Aurorian robots had 2 and 3 in equal power so they wouldn't distroy themselves without apealing to rule 1. hence the idea striking me

Partysan
2007-08-16, 04:39 PM
The solar is not evil now. He is merely... confused. He lost the confidence in the force of good and his own deeds and thus he also lost the powers the force of good provides him to commit such deeds.
The rules don't say that would happen, but the "fallen" solar lost a great part of his powers and is now a more or less mortal being.
You could compare his fall to that of Gabriel in Constantine (I cited Constantine in that scene, it was just too... you know), who lost his wings and powers and became sort of a human. I said sort of... our solar is still large, has very high ability scores and I think part of his abilities aren't used now because of his confusion, but he still has them.
We have a strange humor. He is now travelling with us and as he isn't used to mortal issues like food or feelings he is quite naive now... it is really funny with him. I'm trying to teach him the principles of mortality and how they work together with alignments. I know that my DM twists the rules a bit, but we like it.
His alignment now is sort of a CG. I could imagine him being a kind of enlightened mortal... or a new kind of angel... but he will never become a solar again. I don't think I would have been able to convince him of being evil... not the kind of evil that I think is evil at least. The principles of good are too deeply engraved in his nature to be perverted that much from me. But well, I didn't try... I won't try. Why should my character want that?

btw my character isn't even evil, he is just CN.

Dervag
2007-08-16, 04:47 PM
So, in other words, your character's goal is to teach the solar humility, as opposed to altering their idea of right and wrong?


The third of the robot novels stated that Aurorian robots had 2 and 3 in equal power so they wouldn't distroy themselves without apealing to rule 1. hence the idea striking meThe robots of Aurora were a special case; the default rules for an Asimovian robot were established in his short stories (sampled in the book I, Robot, which was profoundly unlike the movie).

Partysan
2007-08-18, 03:48 AM
oh, I will definitely alter his ideas of right or wrong. But that doesn't mean that he will be evil after that. I could, for example, not make him accept the mindless destruction our blighter practices.
Lets say I'm trying to shape "good" more mortal. Do some of you know "Der gute Mensch von Sezuan" from Bertolt Brecht?

Hamster_Ninja
2007-08-18, 05:19 AM
If you really want to confuse the solar, take a dead cat out of your pocket, stamp your fist and ask him why it had to die.

Back on subject, This shows one of the problems with RP-ing everything- your DM may be very intelligent and wise, but he'd still be no where near a solar or other being, nor can he easily represent the 1000s of years moral debates and massive level of conviction such a being would have. Ofcourse, Diplomacy isn't all that great either.

Murongo
2007-08-20, 11:47 AM
If I were this DM I'd just use a blanket idea that can't really be disproved but may not make much sense. As a last resort, anyway. For example:

PC: *witty question about morality that would disprove the solar's logic*
Solar: Well. I believe that life itself is secondary to morality. That we have to be worthy of survival before we survive, and worthiness is achieved through good acts alone.
PC: That's so inefficient and backward it's beyond belief.
Solar: So? You also can't argue with it. If that's my belief than there's literally nothing you can do to convince me otherwise.

That's what I'd do if I was DM. It's pretty cool that you fast-talked an angel into falling from grace though. I remember I had an epic character who got in an argument with the god of pride and by the end humiliated him. My character's motivation for doing so was, ironically, pride.

Ditto
2007-08-20, 01:11 PM
He's definitely more confused than fallen. Falling represents a deliberate act, not loss of faith. You can always atone for that sort of thing. (Well, maybe not if you're an angel.) I don't know that I'd've gone so far as to have it trekking around with you now, I think he'd just sit down right at his guardpost and ponder and ponder and ponder until he figured out the role of Good, one way or the other. But if you got it talked into enough of a circle to be distracted enough for you to swipe the MacGuffin, more power and XP to ya!