Staying relevant as Non-Epic PC in Epic game?

[Jarmen4u]

Like the title reads, I recently joined a game run by a friend who has been running games longer than I've been alive. One of his settings has been "active" for most of that time. A few of his longtime friends have several existing characters in said setting, all at epic levels. When I (and other new players, as he runs the game publicly on roll20) join, we start at mid level (9-11) for chargen.

The problem is, the longtime friends are also in this game, so we have 2-3 people in our party of 6-7 who are level 25+. This makes it difficult to be relevant, especially since the world is tuned to be a challenge for said epic characters. Granted, it's not a game full of powergamers (as far as I can tell), but most of the time we're in some kind of dungeon crawl, so traps and monsters are a constant threat.

I'm sure this isn't as big a problem as it seems to me, but it just makes me feel like I'm useless in most situations, especially since I'm a warblade and two of the epic characters are a druid and a cleric.

Maybe it's just me, but it's a little disheartening to roll initiative and be greeted with people rolling in the 30s, or rolling a reflex save to be the only person who didn't roll with a +20 or more to their roll.

My only solace is that if we ever encounter AMFs (which the DM says does happen often), I'd be more useful as all the magic items and powers that the epic players rely on won't function.

[Venger]

You can't. Regardless of op level, there's nothing a lvl 9-11 character can do to compete with people in the mid 20s (unless they're all fighters or something) why is your gm doing this? people in a party need to be around the same level. if you're fighting umbral blots or whatever, your character, through no fault of his own, will be unable to contribute

[Westhart]

Hmm, on the bright side you'll level rapidly... does the cleric play as a buffer support style or do he and the druid just charge in?

Edit: Swordsage'd

[Wartex1]

Yeah, this lies on the fault of the GM. Either the characters need to be in separate parties (same world is fine) or the characters need to be around the same level.

However, if your GM calculates encounter XP normally (ignoring the upper limit of CR giving XP because the level gap is just too huge) you should level extremely quickly, like one or two levels per encounter.

[Jarmen4u]

Hmm, on the bright side you'll level rapidly... does the cleric play as a buffer support style or do he and the druid just charge in?

Edit: Swordsage'd

The cleric is his wife, so she usually plays a supportive role, but the druid.. well I really can't tell what their abilities are because they have a lot of stuff that I can't source. Example: As part of our introducing new characters, the party found us PCs locked in cages underground. One of the new PCs has detect-evil at will, and checked out the current party. The druid got an internal ping saying he was being scryed. Probably an item or enchant, but idk the source. I also know he has claw weapons that are called "Tarrasque gauntlets."


Yeah, this lies on the fault of the GM. Either the characters need to be in separate parties (same world is fine) or the characters need to be around the same level.

However, if your GM calculates encounter XP normally (ignoring the upper limit of CR giving XP because the level gap is just too huge) you should level extremely quickly, like one or two levels per encounter.

He doesn't, we just get session XP. I've never seen him give more than a couple thousand XP in a session, but he has been known to hand out a free level. Last session everyone except his epic players got a free level, because (he said this) we'll be fighting monsters next week that drain levels, and he wanted to give us a buffer so we don't instantly die.

[Wartex1]

Well, you seem to be screwed in your current situation. Especially considering each encounter should give you tens of thousands of XP.

[Westhart]

Well, you seem to be screwed in your current situation. Especially considering each encounter should give you tens of thousands of XP.

Agreed, especially when you get to epic level drain...

[Jarmen4u]

He likes to mix 3.5 with earlier editions, and the world(s) he creates are full of inspiration from said systems, like spelljammer, dark sun, and almost every fantasy or sci fi book made in the 70s-80s. So most of the time I can't even tell what it is we're fighting. Last session, we encountered an army led by a lion-centaur with a mind flayer head, and if the players didn't blow him up in one round, he would have tentacled at least 3 of us. Meanwhile the druid roared like a lion and all of the soldiers within 40 feet dropped dead Holy Word style. I didn't even get a chance to attack. 😔

[Wartex1]

Leaving the group might be your best option if the DM doesn't realize that he's screwing over the new guys.

[Jarmen4u]

Leaving the group might be your best option if the DM doesn't realize that he's screwing over the new guys.

I understand that sentiment, but the guy's my friend and I do enjoy his worlds and setting. When we're not in combat or doing crunchy stuff, it's great. It's just between the high turnover of the public players who don't know the setting (the DM doesn't offer a detailed explanation because it's so expansive) making the game slow to a crawl, and the power disparity between new players and his vets, games move at a crawl.

It's not the first time I've joined his game, and I have quit before (due to scheduling), but I do enjoy them outside of mechanics. I just want to find a way to contribute more mechanically. Though, I guess the only thing to do would be to talk to him about it. I just don't want him to think I just want free power (I used to struggle with being a powergamer, so I have that reputation working against me).

Anyway that was a mouthful, but, thoughts?

[Westhart]

I understand that sentiment, but the guy's my friend and I do enjoy his worlds and setting. When we're not in combat or doing crunchy stuff, it's great. It's just between the high turnover of the public players who don't know the setting (the DM doesn't offer a detailed explanation because it's so expansive) making the game slow to a crawl, and the power disparity between new players and his vets, games move at a crawl.

It's not the first time I've joined his game, and I have quit before (due to scheduling), but I do enjoy them outside of mechanics. I just want to find a way to contribute more mechanically. Though, I guess the only thing to do would be to talk to him about it. I just don't want him to think I just want free power (I used to struggle with being a powergamer, so I have that reputation working against me).

Anyway that was a mouthful, but, thoughts?

Like you said, you have to talk to him, and make sure to point out recent gameplay, and the fact that there is no way for you to keep up with the epic players unless they were terribly unoptimized fighters... maybe.
As far as powergaming, if you are using roll20 he can see your sheet so let him look it over before you use it I guess?

[ATHATH]

You can't. Regardless of op level, there's nothing a lvl 9-11 character can do to compete with people in the mid 20s (unless they're all fighters or something)
*cough* 1d2 Crusader *cough*

But, yeah, talk to your DM about this. Maybe even show him this thread.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I understand that sentiment, but the guy's my friend and I do enjoy his worlds and setting. When we're not in combat or doing crunchy stuff, it's great. It's just between the high turnover of the public players who don't know the setting (the DM doesn't offer a detailed explanation because it's so expansive) making the game slow to a crawl, and the power disparity between new players and his vets, games move at a crawl.

It's not the first time I've joined his game, and I have quit before (due to scheduling), but I do enjoy them outside of mechanics. I just want to find a way to contribute more mechanically. Though, I guess the only thing to do would be to talk to him about it. I just don't want him to think I just want free power (I used to struggle with being a powergamer, so I have that reputation working against me).

Anyway that was a mouthful, but, thoughts?
You really only have one option: talk to the guy. Explain politely but frankly that while you're enjoying the setting and story, you find it frustrating being forcibly relegated to the role of sidekick. You don't have to have all the power right now!!!1!, but you'd like to discuss how he's intending to catch you up to the point where you can be an equal member. Bigger experience rewards for low-level characters, divine blessings, rebuilding at 20th level (still a few levels behind, and without custom gear and stuff, but close enough to be in spitting distance)... anything. If he doesn't offer you any hope, respectfully bow out.

Honestly, I don't think this is going to be resolved. It sounds like your DM has been running the same game for the same group for a long, long time, and it's currently full of high-power characters loaded down with unique items that they've "earned"-- and he's not really interested in catching you up in terms of level or history, because you haven't "earned" it. You're never going to be part of the "main" party, the one that he's been playing with for so long.

[Venger]

*cough* 1d2 Crusader *cough*

But, yeah, talk to your DM about this. Maybe even show him this thread.
even assuming a TO character like the 1d2 crusader was allowed, it's only useful for things it can hit that are vulnerable to being killed by hp damage, which once the game devolves into the magical tea party that is epic, isn't as common as during D&D


You really only have one option: talk to the guy. Explain politely but frankly that while you're enjoying the setting and story, you find it frustrating being forcibly relegated to the role of sidekick. You don't have to have all the power right now!!!1!, but you'd like to discuss how he's intending to catch you up to the point where you can be an equal member. Bigger experience rewards for low-level characters, divine blessings, rebuilding at 20th level (still a few levels behind, and without custom gear and stuff, but close enough to be in spitting distance)... anything. If he doesn't offer you any hope, respectfully bow out.

Honestly, I don't think this is going to be resolved. It sounds like your DM has been running the same game for the same group for a long, long time, and it's currently full of high-power characters loaded down with unique items that they've "earned"-- and he's not really interested in catching you up in terms of level or history, because you haven't "earned" it. You're never going to be part of the "main" party, the one that he's been playing with for so long.

This sounds like an accurate assessment of the situation. Again, it's unclear why exactly you'd want to remain in a game where you're literally incapable of playing and the gm's explicitly refused to allow you to remedy this situation.

[Hamste]

*cough* 1d2 Crusader *cough*

But, yeah, talk to your DM about this. Maybe even show him this thread.

Then the crusader dies because almost anything that can put a dent into epic characters will kill a level 10 character.

One shotting anything you can hit isn't enough to compete. You have to not become useless and hit. Maybe if they gave the character the equipment of an epic character the 1d2 crusader could survive.

[Jarmen4u]

Then the crusader dies because almost anything that can put a dent into epic characters will kill a level 10 character.

One shotting anything you can hit isn't enough to compete. You have to not become useless and hit. Maybe if they gave the character the equipment of an epic character the 1d2 crusader could survive.

That's the thing though. I don't even think anything we've ever encountered (including in the other times I played in his game) has actually posed a threat to the epic players. Granted, one of my previous characters got his brain eaten by a mindflayer by failing 2 saves in a row (no idea what the DC is but I rolled pretty low anyway), and plenty of characters I've seen get trapped in cursed armor or get their heads blown off by a "magic artifact" (laser cannon), but I've never seen anything do serious damage to the epics. Like was pointed out above, I doubt they even have that many weaknesses, due to being powered up by all the unique items the DM makes (he loves making unique items, and has notebooks full of them; he also takes items from other sources, i.e. an old thread I made re: Stormbringer etc existing in the setting). I think he tunes the game down a bit to make it a bit more reasonable for the lower levels, but it's still disheartening to fly out of a hole in the ground (thanks for mass fly, "cleric") to see an entire army decimated by your lion-man druid friend's roar. Since I'm playing a warblade, I want him to become obsessed with becoming as powerful as the lion-man, but OoC it's hard to not just feel like any wrong step could kill me.

[chimaeraUndying]

Is there a particular reason you want to keep playing with the group, instead of just observing their antics?

It seems like the latter would be a good compromise between not wanting to leave the group because you like the story/themes/what-have-you and feeling like you're essentially useless in the group's play sessions.

[Jarmen4u]

Is there a particular reason you want to keep playing with the group, instead of just observing their antics?

It seems like the latter would be a good compromise between not wanting to leave the group because you like the story/themes/what-have-you and feeling like you're essentially useless in the group's play sessions.

I guess partly because it's hard to justify taking 4-6 hours out of my Sunday every week to just watch something, and partly because I want to be a part of those antics, I guess.

[Seerow]

You don't happen to be playing in the Central FL area do you? This sounds suspiciously like a campaign I ran away from at top speed almost a decade ago. Only thing missing is the weird hybrid rules that are allegedly based on 3.5, but then a bunch of houserules the DM can't explain because "there's just so many of them, just trust me", and these houserules seem to involve a ridiculous amount of rolling of d4s of all things.


Whether it's the same game or not, these types of DMs won't be reasoned with and in all likelihood will get worse before it gets better. If you're happy going there to hang out and enjoy company of friends, more power to you. If you are interested in getting to play a game where you can contribute, I would highly suggest just finding another group.

[Jarmen4u]

You don't happen to be playing in the Central FL area do you? This sounds suspiciously like a campaign I ran away from at top speed almost a decade ago. Only thing missing is the weird hybrid rules that are allegedly based on 3.5, but then a bunch of houserules the DM can't explain because "there's just so many of them, just trust me", and these houserules seem to involve a ridiculous amount of rolling of d4s of all things.


Whether it's the same game or not, these types of DMs won't be reasoned with and in all likelihood will get worse before it gets better. If you're happy going there to hang out and enjoy company of friends, more power to you. If you are interested in getting to play a game where you can contribute, I would highly suggest just finding another group.

Well I live in central Florida, but the game is hosted online and the main group including the DM live in the Midwest. I don't think it's the same game, sorry.

[Bucky]

Roll up a Tier 1 caster
Use a loadout of party buffs and self-defense
At about level 17, respec your spell list for better solo contribution
At level 22, multiclass out to avoid overshadowing the newer players too much

[Jarmen4u]

Roll up a Tier 1 caster
Use a loadout of party buffs and self-defense
At about level 17, respec your spell list for better solo contribution
At level 22, multiclass out to avoid overshadowing the newer players too much


In my experience, playing a T1 caster in the way they're meant is difficult in his game, because you don't necessarily have the ability to endlessly fill your spellbook with spells that you want. Unless you came across a library or something similar, I'd be stuck with the 2 spells per level thing. (which may be plenty, I don't know.) Maybe a War Weaver or similar type for my next character? The mana system he uses does favor casters a bit, the main reason I went with a martial class was because I rolled very high str and dex, and low wis and cha.

[Galacktic]

Play a different game. There's no fun to be had in standing around being a sidekick.