Regarding Space Operas

[Lheticus]

I've been thinking on how much something about stuff like Star Wars and Star Trek annoys me, and it's brought forth a question. I do really wonder if on any space opera I'm NOT familiar with, the 3 I can think of off the top of my head are Stargate SG1, Battlestar Galactica, and Babylon 5, is there any show out there where the protagonists and/or "good guys" AREN'T absurdly outpowered by the Threat of the Week 19 times out of 20? Like, a show where conventional battle tactics--or at least that which the average observer can recognize as such--are actually effective on an at least somewhat regular basis?

Also, I apologize if the shows I mentioned are somehow not actually space operas--like I said, I'm not familiar with them at all really.

[factotum]

I wouldn't say those shows *do* have a threat of the week that outpowers the heroes? The B5 Shadows and Galactica Cylons were definitely more powerful en masse than the heroes, but the whole point of that was to find how to defeat them despite their advantages, which the heroes did--and there were often situations where, one on one, the heroes could defeat their enemies. Can't say much about SG-1 because I didn't watch it past halfway through the first season--just couldn't get into it at all.

Having said that, part of the reason for having extremely powerful opposition is to provide a credible threat to the heroes. Star Wars would not be very interesting if the heroes were the ones toting planet-destroying superweapons while the bad guys had to make do with old freighters, corvettes and frigates most of the time--the heroes would just roflstomp the enemy twenty minutes into the first movie, and then what do you do for the rest of the runtime?

[Protocol]

TNG is not a space opera. It is not melodramatic.

Also, when the Enterprise fights another ship they usually disable it's weapons and force it to negotiate - using conventional battle tactics. And when they are absurdly outpowered by a Threat of the Week, they usually talk it into ending the fight. Or to death. They don't come up with ridiculous technoblather non-solutions that still somehow save the day (hi Voyager!).



SG-1 is also not a space opera. It is not set in space.

[Chen]

The later seasons of SG1 are more space opera oriented. It required the people from earth to actually build spaceships and such though since at the start they only had the Stargate.

[Vogie]

So you're asking for stories were the opponent is at parity or lesser power level?

At various points Later in the SG series, the protagonists are basically at the same power level as their opponents. Obviously, it takes a bit for them to get there, and isn't universal - Terran weapons are particularly useful against, for example, Replicators, who are basically immune to the energy weapons from everywhere else in the galaxy, but still collapse when hit by a series of bullets. Once the Earthlings (Called the Tau'ri by the rest of the galaxy) ally with the Asgard, a single Tau'ri capital ship is superior to the Goa'uld capital ships... but as there's hundreds of Goa'uld worlds under a dozen or so rulers, and just one Earth, the protags can get overrun if the various factions decide to bind together.

The BSG Reboot is interesting in that, especially after connecting with the Pegasus, the humans could (and do) deal similar damage to their targets, and eventually create superior tech to the Cylons in some capacities. However, the conceit between the two factions isn't power, but life. When a Cylon dies, all of their experience is just downloaded to the next body - their fighters keep their experience, et cetera - while humans just pass away. While the two factions COULD eliminate each other, the humans actively don't want to try that, because they value their lives. This happens to the Cylons later in the series, when the human's stealth bomber eliminates their Resurrection ship, which transforms the conflict for the rest of the series.

[Lheticus]

TNG is not a space opera. It is not melodramatic.

Also, when the Enterprise fights another ship they usually disable it's weapons and force it to negotiate - using conventional battle tactics. And when they are absurdly outpowered by a Threat of the Week, they usually talk it into ending the fight. Or to death. They don't come up with ridiculous technoblather non-solutions that still somehow save the day (hi Voyager!).



SG-1 is also not a space opera. It is not set in space.

TNG not melodramatic? I DO dispute you sir, I do! :smalltongue:

The rest I don't though. And maybe Voyager had me more biased than I realized, because it was right when that show was airing that I was really developed enough to appreciate any Star Trek at all, so it was my first proper Star Trek experience. But TNG still has its fair share of that sort of thing. What I really have the biggest problem with is the Borg. They were SO contrivedly overpowered that any solution in either TNG OR Voyager that could combat them just felt equally contrived. I was just in a mood really, and I tend to generalize when I'm in a mood about something like this.

And as to SG1, I rather suspected as much which is why I made the advance apology in the first place.


So you're asking for stories were the opponent is at parity or lesser power level?

At various points Later in the SG series, the protagonists are basically at the same power level as their opponents. Obviously, it takes a bit for them to get there, and isn't universal - Terran weapons are particularly useful against, for example, Replicators, who are basically immune to the energy weapons from everywhere else in the galaxy, but still collapse when hit by a series of bullets. Once the Earthlings (Called the Tau'ri by the rest of the galaxy) ally with the Asgard, a single Tau'ri capital ship is superior to the Goa'uld capital ships... but as there's hundreds of Goa'uld worlds under a dozen or so rulers, and just one Earth, the protags can get overrun if the various factions decide to bind together.

The BSG Reboot is interesting in that, especially after connecting with the Pegasus, the humans could (and do) deal similar damage to their targets, and eventually create superior tech to the Cylons in some capacities. However, the conceit between the two factions isn't power, but life. When a Cylon dies, all of their experience is just downloaded to the next body - their fighters keep their experience, et cetera - while humans just pass away. While the two factions COULD eliminate each other, the humans actively don't want to try that, because they value their lives. This happens to the Cylons later in the series, when the human's stealth bomber eliminates their Resurrection ship, which transforms the conflict for the rest of the series.

So, I've done some thinking since the OP, and it does sound like I would rather like SG and BSG, but I feel like what I'd LOVE to see is something like Game of Thrones IN SPACE. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE) Something emphasizing warfare, political intrigue, with the added potential for culture clashing because you can have many different planets and thus actual species. Not sure it exists yet but I think someone should do it.

[The Glyphstone]

For some reason, I just want to see an actual Space Opera. With opera singing.

[comicshorse]

For some reason, I just want to see an actual Space Opera. With opera singing.

There was an episode of Lexx that was kinda like that ('Brigadoom')

[Darth Credence]

So, I've done some thinking since the OP, and it does sound like I would rather like SG and BSG, but I feel like what I'd LOVE to see is something like Game of Thrones IN SPACE. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE) Something emphasizing warfare, political intrigue, with the added potential for culture clashing because you can have many different planets and thus actual species. Not sure it exists yet but I think someone should do it.

I think the closest thing to Game of Thrones in Space is probably Dune. There hasn't been a great version yet, but there always seems to be a version of some sort in development. Right now, I think Legendary Entertainment is working on both a TV and movie version.

[comicshorse]

So, I've done some thinking since the OP, and it does sound like I would rather like SG and BSG, but I feel like what I'd LOVE to see is something like Game of Thrones IN SPACE. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE) Something emphasizing warfare, political intrigue, with the added potential for culture clashing because you can have many different planets and thus actual species. Not sure it exists yet but I think someone should do it.

From what I've heard ( not seen it myself) 'The Expanse' is kinda that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanse_(TV_series)

[hamishspence]

So, I've done some thinking since the OP, and it does sound like I would rather like SG and BSG, but I feel like what I'd LOVE to see is something like Game of Thrones IN SPACE. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE) Something emphasizing warfare, political intrigue, with the added potential for culture clashing because you can have many different planets and thus actual species. Not sure it exists yet but I think someone should do it.

Deathstalker novel series was very much this - maybe it could be made into an animated series or even a live action one.

TV Tropes article on it:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/Deathstalker

And my favourite quote, from a very annoyed rebellion operative asked to go on a mission right after finishing the last one:

You want what? I've only just got back, damn it! I've been cut at, shot at, chased halfway to hell and back while dodging in and out of the pastel towers on a glorified gravity sled, and only just got away in one piece, and you want me to go out again? Does the phrase Stick it where the sun don't shine sound at all familiar? Have you all gone crazy, or are you just harboring a death wish? On the grounds that if you don't change your minds about this new mission in one hell of a hurry, I am going to find what's behind these over-rehearsed mirages of yours and slice and dice all three of you into pie filling!

I am tired, hurt, and completely lacking in the sense of humor department. And no I don't have any sense of loyalty or honor. I'm an aristocrat, remember? I'm not going anywhere till I've had a good long soak in a hot tub, three or four good meals on the same plate, and an extremely long and uninterrupted nap. I am like a disrupter. I need to recharge my batteries between jobs. Right now my batteries are sitting in a corner crying their eyes out, and my get-up-and-go has got up and gone without leaving a forwarding address. In other words, no, I'm not bloody going!

(he does eventually get talked into it).

[Vogie]

So, I've done some thinking since the OP, and it does sound like I would rather like SG and BSG, but I feel like what I'd LOVE to see is something like Game of Thrones IN SPACE. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE) Something emphasizing warfare, political intrigue, with the added potential for culture clashing because you can have many different planets and thus actual species. Not sure it exists yet but I think someone should do it.

BSG certainly has certain GoT aspects to it - it's a dirty, often jerry-rigged, and overtly political world. There's a constant push-pull between the military trying to keep people safe and the Accidental-Designated-Survivor President trying to keep people free. The humans are pantheistic while the cylons are monotheistic, and there's a new pseudo-religious sect that starts as a cult around a personality early on. The reason I love BSG is because they have very real conversations - if I'm a deckhand, or work on a fuel ship, and I'm having a kid, does that make my kid a deckhand, or forced into working on the fuel ship?

There are entire episodes with cores that are so fundamentally human that it's one of the few series I wish I could forget for the sole purpose to watch anew.

No aliens though...

[Chen]

From what I've heard ( not seen it myself) 'The Expanse' is kinda that

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expanse_(TV_series)

Yeah The Expanse is a great modern Space Opera. There's some alien tech here and there but otherwise its Earth humans vs Mars humans vs Asteroid belt humans and they all have similar technology (Mars a bit more advanced, belt a little less advanced).

[Potatomade]

So, I've done some thinking since the OP, and it does sound like I would rather like SG and BSG, but I feel like what I'd LOVE to see is something like Game of Thrones IN SPACE. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledINSPACE) Something emphasizing warfare, political intrigue, with the added potential for culture clashing because you can have many different planets and thus actual species. Not sure it exists yet but I think someone should do it.

Babylon 5 does this. That's one of it's main draws compared to Star Trek/Star Wars. If you like DS9, you'll like Babylon 5 (since that's what DS9 was ripping off).

[Protocol]

TNG not melodramatic? I DO dispute you sir, I do! :smalltongue:

The rest I don't though. And maybe Voyager had me more biased than I realized, because it was right when that show was airing that I was really developed enough to appreciate any Star Trek at all, so it was my first proper Star Trek experience. But TNG still has its fair share of that sort of thing. What I really have the biggest problem with is the Borg. They were SO contrivedly overpowered that any solution in either TNG OR Voyager that could combat them just felt equally contrived. I was just in a mood really, and I tend to generalize when I'm in a mood about something like this.TNG would often have contrived technogibberish, but it wasn't often used to overcome the episode threat. It was just sort of there.

I think the key difference is that TNG the threat was usually a catalyst for a character story or an engaging mystery rather than being the focus. Whereas the later series tended to have the threat be the focus in and of itself.



For some reason, I just want to see an actual Space Opera. With opera singing.
The Star Wars Holiday Special is the closest you'll get.

[Metahuman1]

Wow there are a WHOLE lot of TNG episodes that would disagree with that assessment.




Anyway, B5, particularly after the shadow war when the focus shifted to the earth conflict, had notable elements of this. Very considerable notable elements of this. Though season 1 was a touch weaker on it for most of the run, and season 5 has a few good eps but most of it was worth skipping as well. 2 3 and 4 thought sound oh so very much like what your looking for, though sadly you'll have to watch season 1 to follow it as important set up does happen there.

[Aotrs Commander]

Can't speak to nuBSG, but in both B5 and SG-1, the protagonists are definitely not on even power terms with the antagonists for the majority of the run (SG-1 ran twice as long as B5, so there were points where they were more sort of even-ish I guess... maybe; but the last couple of seasons, where presumably the protagonists had reached, like, Epic level, they more-or-less had to wheel out actual, not pretending-to-be, gods to challenge them). B5 definitely relies on less tech-tech solutions, whereas SG-1 sort of has to to stay competative.

(Though whereas Trek tends to use modulating the plasma stream, SG-1 tends to be more:


O’Neill: Something wrong?
Carter: No. I’ve just never blown up a star before.
O’Neill: Well they say the first one is always the hardest.

... direct in their tech-tech solutions.)

I consider them respectively the best and second-best scifi shows, though.



Otherwise... Maybe Star Fleet (X-Bomber to them as in the states) sort of was more even-ish kinda for most of the run to the bad guys? Really, though it's pretty uncommon for the explicit reason that everybody (sic) loves an underdogTM.



Me personally, I'd like to see a show be about the protagonists being, like, The Man and actually sticking to it (Agents of SHIELD and Generator Rex, lookin' at you).

[Anonymouswizard]

I've been thinking on how much something about stuff like Star Wars and Star Trek annoys me, and it's brought forth a question. I do really wonder if on any space opera I'm NOT familiar with, the 3 I can think of off the top of my head are Stargate SG1, Battlestar Galactica, and Babylon 5, is there any show out there where the protagonists and/or "good guys" AREN'T absurdly outpowered by the Threat of the Week 19 times out of 20? Like, a show where conventional battle tactics--or at least that which the average observer can recognize as such--are actually effective on an at least somewhat regular basis?

If you start getting into space opera books you'll find this is relatively common.

In the Culture stories the Culture is at the tech level where most civilisations ascend to a higher plane of existence (Sublime) and have been there for at least hundreds of years (in some stories it is definitely in thousands) so there's nobody else out there quite as powerful as them (people do get close enough to force a war).

Peter F. Hamilton's space opera (that I've read, that's the Commonwealth Saga and two books of the Night's Dawn Trilogy) tends to have both sides relatively evenly matched, but potentially with different abilities, and includes the human protagonists researching in order to overcome their weaknesses (while the bad guys start out at an advantage due to their abilities being slightly better suited to war), which means that you get situations where one side has a lot of trouble getting around the universe, but it's near impossible to get them off any planets they encounter.

Hamilton is also the only author I've discovered who has had a character insist for over a book that their FTL drive is not a hyperdrive. They then go on to invent an actual hyperdrive that does shift the ship into hyperspace.

In the Lensman books the bad guys begin slightly weaker, manage to catch up, and then it becomes an arms race. It's important to note that the bad guys aren't actually engaging in war at the beginning, the good guys don't even recognise them as a civilisation because of it. A lot of Smith seems to be 'hero or his allies have to invent new powerful weapons' in my experience.


TNG is not a space opera. It is not melodramatic.

Space operas don't have to be melodramatic. The Commonwealth Saga springs to mind.


SG-1 is also not a space opera. It is not set in space.

Define set in space. The Commonwealth Saga (bringing it up again because it's frankly amazing) uses wormholes slightly different to Stargate ones (transparent and two way) that are still situated on planets, but still manages to be a space opera before [spoiler]. Similarly, even before hyperspace ships are invented SG-1 is a space opera, although it utilises planet bound wormhole generators in order to avoid all that messing around with spacecraft, and is set on alien planets. They just avoid the void of space by taking the Stargate directly to their destination.

[dps]

I think the closest thing to Game of Thrones in Space is probably Dune. There hasn't been a great version yet, but there always seems to be a version of some sort in development. Right now, I think Legendary Entertainment is working on both a TV and movie version.

A lot of people would consider the original novel a great versions. :smallbiggrin:

I wouldn't consider Dune to be a Space Opera, though. Heck, I wouldn't consider Star Trek, Babylon 5, Battlestar Galactica, or Stargate: SG-I to be Space Operas; they all have elements of Space Opera, but that's not the overall tone of those works. Star Wars, Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers--those are Space Operas.