Feat options choice

[ZorroGames]

Playing around with a character build. Basically an archer Champion Fighter.

Mountain Dwarf,
ST 8+2
DE 14
CO 14+2
IN 10
WI 14
CH 12

Yes, the WI could be 15 and the CH 10 but let us ignore changing the stats, okay?

Background Urban Bounty Hunter.

Long Bow (yep, RAW for Medium creatures,) Rapier, Dagger, Leather armor.

Fighting Style Archery

Level:

4 Sharp Shooter
6 +2 DE

Here is the section on choices!

8 A) Dual Wield or B) Defensive Duelist
{10} Second style
A) TWF Fighting Style or B) Defensive Fighting Style

(12) +2 DE (18)
(14) +2 CO (18)
(16) Tough
(19) TBD - HAM, +2 CO, +2 DE, other?

Thoughts on which level 8/10 choices set is more useful for a primarily ranged fighter which may need melee ability later?

Right now I lean towards option B.

[Specter]

Personally I'd consider Tough for a feat, since that helps you both at range and at a distance. Definitely Defense over TWF.

[ZorroGames]

Personally I'd consider Tough for a feat, since that helps you both at range and at a distance. Definitely Defense over TWF.

Check level (16) for tough.

Did you mean select it earlier?

[Specter]

Check level (16) for tough.

Did you mean select it earlier?

Yeah, and make sure DEX is 20 for shooting things at your best.

[Citan]

Playing around with a character build. Basically an archer Champion Fighter.

Mountain Dwarf,
ST 8+2
DE 14
CO 14+2
IN 10
WI 14
CH 12

Yes, the WI could be 15 and the CH 10 but let us ignore changing the stats, okay?

Background Urban Bounty Hunter.

Long Bow (yep, RAW for Medium creatures,) Rapier, Dagger, Leather armor.

Fighting Style Archery

Level:

4 Sharp Shooter
6 +2 DE

Here is the section on choices!

8 A) Dual Wield or B) Defensive Duelist
{10} Second style
A) TWF Fighting Style or B) Defensive Fighting Style

(12) +2 DE (18)
(14) +2 CO (18)
(16) Tough
(19) TBD - HAM, +2 CO, +2 DE, other?

Thoughts on which level 8/10 choices set is more useful for a primarily ranged fighter which may need melee ability later?

Right now I lean towards option B.
Hi!

Honestly, both feat are really good in essence, so taking both may have been an option for some others. For you, the choice is much easier. Quick analysis.

Defensive Duelist would be a great feat for you, albeit even better later, simply because since it scales with proficiency.
Unless you often feel threatened in melee, you could postpone it to level 12 imo.

As for Dual Wielder... As good this may be for some, the usual big advantages of Dual Wielder are washed for you for the most part since you are DEX based (and can afford several feats).

Thrown weapons that depend on finesse are basically only daggers. Since you already get Sharpshooter, and proficiency in all weapons, I don't see many situations in which you would need to constantly switch: I think usually you will start encounters with a longbow then switch to one-handed melee, maybe keeping a dagger off-hand for occasional thrown attack. But as soon as you manage to get at least 60 feet distance, even a plain hand crossbow can do the trick (although you would need a free hand to respect loading rule).

Plus, you can perfectly well decide to wield a dagger off-hand without Dual Wielder, it just means you have to cope with a Scimitar instead of a Rapier (lose 1 damage per attack on average, no big deal imo).

So basically the added versatility of Dual Wielder is not enough for someone with many weapon attacks per turn and a longbow, unless you expect (or plan to) to always be in close range (between 5 feet and 60 feet) of enemies (because enemies will try to swarm you, or because you will often switch between "ranged damage" role and "keep one enemy occupied" role).
In which case the ability to draw two weapons at once will allow you to occasionally make up to three chained ranged attacks over a single turn while keeping a weapon for OA.
Even then though, Crossbow Expert would be more sustainable if you need to stay in ranged mode for more than one turn, because once you sheathed your main weapon (or rather, dropped it to use your free interaction to draw crossbow and attack) you will have no more limitation on number of attacks per round.

Keep a finesse weapon off-hand to enable Defensive Duelist?
You are a DEX based character, so if you have to go into melee, you will use a finesse weapon as your main anyways. So here too DW is redundant.

What's left in DW goodies? +1 AC.
Is it good? Certainly.
Is it THAT good (as to make the feat worth)? Certainly not.

Summary? You have all you need already to make most of Dual Wielder either too situational to be worth or plain redundant, except the plain +1 AC.

So as far as feats go, definitely put Dual Wielder aside to pick Defensive Duelist instead.
Also, in your place, I' be tempted to make another move first for 8th level (+2 DEX always good so probably that).

However, as far as Fighting Styles go, I'd really consider TWF for those situations in which you need to switch to full-melee, or those where just one thrown dagger could be useful. Unless, of course...
- You plan on wielding a shield if you go full melee (although it takes time to don doesn't it?)...
- Or you grab Crossbow Expert...
- Or you expect those situations to be too rare for any investment to be worth in the first place (because you will always outsmart enemies o/).
In which case a +1 AC is obviously the better pick.

[Avonar]

This will depend on the party, but I feel like you might be putting too much into melee if you want to be a primarily ranged character. If you have some melee characters, taking 18 CON over 20 DEX seems like not so good of an idea, especially if you want Tough, 18 CON can be left to level 19 instead of the 20 DEX.

Might I potentially suggest changing your 8th level feat to Crossbow Expert? It would allow you to upgrade to heavy crossbows for d10 over d8 damage, and still makes use of your Archery and Sharpshooter feats, you could keep ranging even in melee. Naturally, I would recommend Defense Fighting Style with this.

HOWEVER

If you are set on your initial proposals, I would recommend Defensive Duelist over Dual Wielder. RAW you can draw or stow 1 weapon as free action, 2 weapons if you take TWF, however you would still have to drop the bow to draw two weapons to make use of it. Also bear in mind, and this may be pedantic but it's in there, Dual Wielder only allows you to draw or stow 2 one-handed weapons. You couldn't use it to stow a sword and then draw your bow.

It would be a lot of weapon juggling for limited gain. It would allow you d8 rapiers over d6 scimitars/shortswords, and a +1AC. For a ranged based character, I don't think it's worth it as a feat. Remember, you only need to use two hands when attacking with a two-handed weapon. You can go around with your bow and rapier in hand, using the rapier for Defensive Duelist if melee happens, and easily putting away the rapier to use the bow.

[ZorroGames]

Citan,

Thanks for analysis but so far (several monhs of AL play with multiple parties/characters through 5th level) I honestly have never been engaging enemies over 60 feet (12 hexes/squares) except once in an ambush across a field and we were immediately charged (dash) by a number of Orcs, Half Orcs, and Ogres who engaged our (slightly forward) melee screen characters on turn one.

Previously I was one of two melee characters (parties averaged 5 at first now 6 or 7) before we began gaming in Chult. Currently it is still about 50% full casters or more.

Right now I am using a similar build Variant Human Ranger (😱) for once and have ended up in melee after several rounds of combat. Of course that has been primarily jungle and urban terrain so far. Expecting dungeons and (if I can talk the face player into chasing pirates) maybe some boarding action in the future. I am not planning on using this Dwarf character in Chult unless “something bad happens” to my VHuman Ranger. And even then I have several Mountain Dwarf Tier 1 - Cleric, Fighter, - plus untested Paladin, Wizard, and Rogue characters and a Tier 2 Mountain Dwarf Monk (my first 5e character) character I can toss in to fill out the party first.

This is a potential “post Chult” character.

[ZorroGames]

This will depend on the party, but I feel like you might be putting too much into melee if you want to be a primarily ranged character. If you have some melee characters, taking 18 CON over 20 DEX seems like not so good of an idea, especially if you want Tough, 18 CON can be left to level 19 instead of the 20 DEX.

Might I potentially suggest changing your 8th level feat to Crossbow Expert? It would allow you to upgrade to heavy crossbows for d10 over d8 damage, and still makes use of your Archery and Sharpshooter feats, you could keep ranging even in melee. Naturally, I would recommend Defense Fighting Style with this.

HOWEVER

If you are set on your initial proposals, I would recommend Defensive Duelist over Dual Wielder. RAW you can draw or stow 1 weapon as free action, 2 weapons if you take TWF, however you would still have to drop the bow to draw two weapons to make use of it. Also bear in mind, and this may be pedantic but it's in there, Dual Wielder only allows you to draw or stow 2 one-handed weapons. You couldn't use it to stow a sword and then draw your bow.

It would be a lot of weapon juggling for limited gain. It would allow you d8 rapiers over d6 scimitars/shortswords, and a +1AC. For a ranged based character, I don't think it's worth it as a feat. Remember, you only need to use two hands when attacking with a two-handed weapon. You can go around with your bow and rapier in hand, using the rapier for Defensive Duelist if melee happens, and easily putting away the rapier to use the bow.

This is still a theoretical post ToA character so very fluid right now.

Considering CBE but sticking with Longbow right now (does CBE work with LongBow?) Willing to add Heavy CB to my gear or change it out later if it is beneficial.

Does number of attacks drop from 2 to one with Heavy Crossbow loading? I assume it stays with two if I take CBE.

Currently with my VHuman Ranger I am luxuriating in having Dwarf Barbarian, a Tortle Cleric, and my ranger mixed with a Moon Druid and multiple full arcane casters. First time that has happened in a while.

[Saggo]

Considering CBE but sticking with Longbow right now (does CBE work with LongBow?) Willing to add Heavy CB to my gear or change it out later if it is beneficial.

Does number of attacks drop from 2 to one with Heavy Crossbow loading? I assume it stays with two if I take CBE.

The name of the feat is for flavor, it doesn't restrict you to just Crossbows.

The first feature works with all crossbows, Heavy, Light, or Hand.

The second feature works with any ranged attack, this includes all ranged weapons (including bows), all thrown weapons, and any weapon/item being used as an improvised thrown weapon.

The third feature only works with hand crossbows, given the qualifying attack (any one-handed weapon). This also means you can have 1 hand crossbow, take the Attack action with it, then use your bonus action to attack with the same hand crossbow.

[ZorroGames]

The name of the feat is for flavor, it doesn't restrict you to just Crossbows.

The first feature works with all crossbows, Heavy, Light, or Hand.

The second feature works with any ranged attack, this includes all ranged weapons (including bows), all thrown weapons, and any weapon/item being used as an improvised thrown weapon.

The third feature only works with hand crossbows, given the qualifying attack (any one-handed weapon). This also means you can have 1 hand crossbow, take the Attack action with it, then use your bonus action to attack with the same hand crossbow.

I had figured out 1 and most of 3 and thought 2 was as described but that’s for the clarification.

[Citan]

Citan,

Thanks for analysis but so far (several monhs of AL play with multiple parties/characters through 5th level) I honestly have never been engaging enemies over 60 feet (12 hexes/squares) except once in an ambush across a field and we were immediately charged (dash) by a number of Orcs, Half Orcs, and Ogres who engaged our (slightly forward) melee screen characters on turn one.

Right now I am using a similar build Variant Human Ranger (😱) for once and have ended up in melee after several rounds of combat. Of course that has been primarily jungle and urban terrain so far. Expecting dungeons and (if I can talk the face player into chasing pirates) maybe some boarding action in the future.
Well then, you definitely don't need Dual Wielder stricto sensu. Things would have been different if you had been a Monk who 1) never gets more than simple Extra Attack and melee-only bonus action 2) can use Javelins (120 feet with Sharpshooter) with Dex, covering 99% of all his needs.

For you, Dual Wielder with daggers would work perfectly fine while you still have only "plain" Extra Attack:

Turn 1 (starting with daggers in both hands).
a) Extra Attack throw both daggers.
b) Draw two other daggers as your free interaction (Dual Wielder).
c) Throw the third with the dual-wielding bonus action weapon attack.
d) Keep the last dagger in hand for potential OA.

Turn 2:
a) Extra Attack first attack: throw remaining dagger.
b) Draw two one-handed weapons (presumably still daggers).
c) Extra Attack second attack: throw off-hand dagger.
d) Either throw the remaining with bonus action and be unarmed until start of next turn, or keep it and do something else with your bonus action. Except as a Champion Fighter you basically have nothing else to do with it. :/

Once you get level 11 Fighter with the 3*wa Attack, action economy would break the round-per-round sustainability of this tactic unless you mesh 3 levels of Thief Rogue to get another dual draw as a bonus action. I'm sure you see why without me describing it step by step. ^^

With that said, if you like this flexibility and are fine with this limitation because you think you'll manage, then by all means go with it because you'll have fun with it and it will help you optimize placement.

(I know I would, although I would also certainly multiclass into Thief or Monk to get better bonus action economy).

I'm just wondering then why you keep the longbow? I guess it's "in case of" flying enemies or big outdoor encounters? Or is it just to get the best damage?

Otherwise if you feel like it's a hassle or are just not that interested in dual-wielding concept/fluff/coolness, better get Crossbow Expert and just use a hand crossbow every time.
You basically lose 1 AC (for not getting Dual Wielder) and 1 die size (for not using longbow) but make your life overall simpler since...
- You don't even get disadvantage on "tight range" anymore,
- You in fact get potentially more damage at range thanks to the bonus action attack.
- You clearly don't need more than 120 feet effective range anyways from what you say.
- Plus since you don't care about dual-wielding anymore, at all, you can safely pick Defense Fighting Style, so in fact you don't even lose any AC. ;)
And when you really need a melee weapon (for OA or Defensive Duelist), you can just draw a dagger (so you can use either reaction off-turn, but also throw it as your firs weapon attack to free your hand again for reloading crossbow).

TL;DR Dual Wielder will be satisfactory until level 11 then potentially cause problems in action economy management if you have to sustain ranged attacks. For a DEX character with Sharpshooter and all weapons, Crossbow Expert is as efficient or better and much simpler to manage to be equally good in melee and at range. :)

[ZorroGames]

Well then, you definitely don't need Dual Wielder stricto sensu. Things would have been different if you had been a Monk who 1) never gets more than simple Extra Attack and melee-only bonus action 2) can use Javelins (120 feet with Sharpshooter) with Dex, covering 99% of all his needs.

For you, Dual Wielder with daggers would work perfectly fine while you still have Extra Attack:

Turn 1 (starting with daggers in both hands).
a) Extra Attack throw both daggers.
b) Draw two other daggers as your free interaction (Dual Wielder).
c) Throw the third with the dual-wielding bonus action weapon attack.
d) Keep the last dagger in hand for potential OA.

Turn 2:
a) Extra Attack first attack: throw remaining dagger.
b) Draw two one-handed weapons (presumably still daggers).
c) Extra Attack second attack: throw off-hand dagger.
d) Either throw the remaining with bonus action and be unarmed until start of next turn, or keep it and do something else with your bonus action. Except as a Champion Fighter you basically have nothing else to do with it. :/

Once you get level 11 Fighter with the 3*wa Attack, action economy would break the round-per-round sustainability of this tactic unless you mesh 3 levels of Thief Rogue to get another dual draw as a bonus action. I'm sure you see why without me describing it step by step. ^^

With that said, if you like this flexibility and are fine with this limitation because you think you'll manage, then by all means go with it because you'll have fun with it and it will help you optimize placement.
(I know I would, although I would also certainly multiclass into Thief or Monk to get better bonus action economy).

I'm just wondering then why you keep the longbow? I guess it's "in case of" flying enemies or big outdoor encounters? Or is it just to get the best damage?

A hangover from the Chult campaign where the other players bemoaned no strong ranged combat figures and there were 4 figures (1 my life cleric) capable of healing. No one else seemed likely to become a martial missile combat guy so I switched out my Mountain Dwarf for a Chultian VHuman Ranger.

Our first potential aerial monsters were a flock of Quetzalcoatlus which I declined to engage since the Tortle went “full shell” and the spellcasters went “full hiding” mode. It would have been VHuman ranger me alone because the Moon Druid and even the Dwarf Barbarian took cover like the others. I like the ranged role now that I do not feel like the only meat shield in a party. I like the idea of three or four attacks supporting themelee fighters with a long bow, not sure if that number of attacks applies to Heavy Crossbow.

[Saggo]

For you, Dual Wielder with daggers would work perfectly fine while you still have Extra Attack:

Turn 1 (starting with daggers in both hands).
a) Extra Attack throw both daggers.
b) Draw two other daggers as your free interaction (Dual Wielder).
c) Throw the third with the dual-wielding bonus action weapon attack.
d) Keep the last dagger in hand for potential OA.

Turn 2:
a) Extra Attack first attack: throw remaining dagger.
b) Draw two one-handed weapons (presumably still daggers).
c) Extra Attack second attack: throw off-hand dagger.
d) Either throw the remaining with bonus action and be unarmed until start of next turn, or keep it and do something else with your bonus action. Except as a Champion Fighter you basically have nothing else to do with it. :/

Once you get level 11 Fighter with the 3*wa Attack, action economy would break the round-per-round sustainability of this tactic unless you mesh 3 levels of Thief Rogue to get another dual draw as a bonus action. I'm sure you see why without me describing it step by step. ^^
The worst thing about 2x Extra Attack? Bookkeeping, 'cause holy moly would you need a lot of daggers.

Hadn't thought about Dual Wielder + Thief, I like that.

[ZorroGames]

The worst thing about 2x Extra Attack? Bookkeeping, 'cause holy moly would you need a lot of daggers.

Hadn't thought about Dual Wielder + Thief, I like that.

Yeah, if it works out with my VHuman Ranger then probably go with bow/crossbow and rapier for my theoretical Dwarf Dex build in the OP with dagger backup. Defense FS and Def. Duelist combo.

First I need to finish the AL Chult campaign.

[Citan]

The worst thing about 2x Extra Attack? Bookkeeping, 'cause holy moly would you need a lot of daggers.

Hadn't thought about Dual Wielder + Thief, I like that.
I'd really like to play a character mixing Thief Rogue with Monk/Fighter/Barb, with possible dips elsewhere, either all DEX&WIS in case of Monk, to use all Monk features, or all STR otherwise.

Like Battlemaster 12 / Thief Rogue 8, could be fun: you can grab Dual Wielder (javelin hurling fun...), Sharpshooter (at 120 feet away), and still Healer feat (another great use of bonus action) and the classic Resilient or Mage Slayer or Defensive Duelist (although competes with Uncanny Dodge and off-turn Sneak Attack). Even without Variant Human you have enough ASIs for everything, although some things will have to wait.

Also, I really think they missed a thing on Eldricht Knight, allowing them to bond with two weapons, but recall only one of them with bonus action.
EK with teleporting dual-javelins was a nice dream for me. ^^


Yeah, if it works out with my VHuman Ranger then probably go with bow/crossbow and rapier for my theoretical Dwarf Dex build in the OP with dagger backup. Defense FS and Def. Duelist combo.

First I need to finish the AL Chult campaign.
There you go (maybe my edit in the previous post helped you decide, or maybe not who knows. Anyways I feel this is the optimal choice to have fun without brain twists and bookkeeping ;)).