What would Halfling fight club look like?

[No brains]

Because halflings are smaller and have much higher relative strength than humans, what would halfling vs halfling fighting techniques look like?

Because it would be easier for halflings to lift each other, might they use more throws/ flips? Because they have less absolute strength, would holds for breaking joints and limbs be less effective? Because they're slower, would they be more aggressive since running isn't an effective option?

[legomaster00156]

I don't know, we're not allowed to talk about halfling fight club. :smallbiggrin:

[Grim Portent]

Against each other I imagine they'd just use similar weapons to what humans use on each other. A spear, sword or axe should all work fine in halfling vs halfling conflicts. Their wrestling would probably be different because of differences in body proportions and such, but how it would differ is something that I really can't say.

[Psyren]

It would be more adorable?

I doubt the speed thing would matter - the rings would probably just be smaller, so you end up with the same relative distance to cover.

For the strength thing, are you talking 3e/PF? Because they not only get a Str penalty there, they also have lower encumbrance even if they have equal strength to a human. It's not precise but I'd call it a wash all the same.

[No brains]

It would be more adorable?

I doubt the speed thing would matter - the rings would probably just be smaller, so you end up with the same relative distance to cover.

For the strength thing, are you talking 3e/PF? Because they not only get a Str penalty there, they also have lower encumbrance even if they have equal strength to a human. It's not precise but I'd call it a wash all the same.

Adorability is a factor.

The speed thing was less to do with fighting in a ring and more to do with fighting out in the open. With a lower land speed, they would have fewer opportunities to break line of sight from their opponents. Maybe this could be slightly mitigated by smaller creatures having more viable places to hide, but I'm not sure.

I was partially talking about ye olden grognard days when halflings had lower encumbrance, but I think mostly I got my head caught up in some video some people made about fight science and halflings. I think it was by some group called Dorks of Yore or something. If someone is brave enough to look through different edition's tables and look up how halfling weight vs halfling encumbrance works out, I'd be interested. How viable is it for hobbits to suplex each other?

[Psyren]

The speed thing was less to do with fighting in a ring and more to do with fighting out in the open. With a lower land speed, they would have fewer opportunities to break line of sight from their opponents. Maybe this could be slightly mitigated by smaller creatures having more viable places to hide, but I'm not sure.

It's Fight Club though, why would they be out in the open? Being in a ring is kind of the point.



I was partially talking about ye olden grognard days when halflings had lower encumbrance, but I think mostly I got my head caught up in some video some people made about fight science and halflings. I think it was by some group called Dorks of Yore or something. If someone is brave enough to look through different edition's tables and look up how halfling weight vs halfling encumbrance works out, I'd be interested. How viable is it for hobbits to suplex each other?

Small creatures multiply the encumbrance values by 3/4, then you have to factor in the Str penalty.

[ImNotTrevor]

It would probably look a lot like what would happen if you put a bunch of Kindergartners through intensive fight training and then had them fight.

Adorable, but also deeply unsettling.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, I'd say the fights would be...shorter.


And they might ''Operation Mayhem" a Krispy Kreme, not a ''bank computer''. (Or an Ihop where they can get a.......short stack of pancakes)

Maybe check out the Micro Wrestling Federation or the Mini-Estrella.

[Telonius]

I'm picturing a scene at a cider-making facility. Two piles of apples on either side of the juicing vat; the halflings chuck them at each other. (Misses hit the wall with such force that they're juiced). Fight lasts until either somebody's unconscious, or somebody caves in and starts eating the apples. Winner gets to keep not only any apples that haven't yet been thrown, but also any cider produced in the process.

[No brains]

The title might have sounded nice, but was maybe a little misleading, I'm not just interested in how halflings would fight in a fight club, but how they would fight altogether.


...Also they're gonna have to go into the open to execute that imaginary halfling's plan at some point. They need to learn about running away so halfling Meatloaf doesn't get shot.

[Anymage]

Two questions. First, are you asking about halflings on halflings (where many of these elements can be assumed to cancel), or halflings on human sized opponents. And second, are you talking about what physics would assume about midget martial artists, or how game artifacts would affect the outcome. (E.G: halflings have the same HP as a larger creature, due to same HD and no CON adjustment. +2 DEX gives them better AC while -2 STR and a smaller weapon die makes them hit less often and do less damage, making the fights go on longer.)

[Psyren]

The title might have sounded nice, but was maybe a little misleading, I'm not just interested in how halflings would fight in a fight club, but how they would fight altogether.

They'd fight at range generally, particularly with slings and thrown weapons. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0745.html) In 3.5, they get +3 bonus (Dex, size, racial) to these kinds of attacks before counting base stats, which is a massive increase for most members of a population, who would be low level with the standard or elite array.

You haven't specified an edition, but an excerpt from Races of the Wild states:


Halflings are certainly not pacifists, however, and often find work as mercenaries in the wars of others. Their small size and aptitude for sneaking makes them excellent scouts, and their high Dexterity and racial bonus with thrown weapons makes them valuable in units employing ranged weapons. Though halflings have no fear of melee combat, they are prudent enough to avoid it when possible. Halfling infantry units are rare, though halfling cavalry can be surprisingly effective due to the halflings’ aptitude with animals and their penchant for doing the unexpected on the battlefield.

All halflings learn to use slings and javelins well before they reach maturity. Many also learn how to use short swords and throwing axes, as well as certain exotic halfling weapons such as skiprocks and war slings. A halfling’s first line of defense is usually a ranged weapon. Should an enemy get close enough for melee combat, the longsword or short sword is the most common choice.

An excerpt from Pathfinder's Halflings of Golarion has similar information:



Halflings possess lean muscles and agile frames more suited for using quick, light weapons than swinging heavy swords. Slings remain a popular choice for halflings in need of a weapon, and for good reason. Halflings’ natural grace affords them greater accuracy with slings, and the weapons’ range allows halflings to stay out of dangerous melee combat, where they fare worse because of their relative muscular weakness. In addition, halflings possess a lower center of gravity than most races. They remain stable and surefooted while slinging rocks at their foes, and some halflings have designed more exotic slings to take advantage of this trait.

Halflings who do engage in melee combat favor weapons that showcase their agility, such as rapiers and short swords. Although halflings are agile, their short legs prevent them from moving around the battlefield as quickly as their taller companions, and so finding a defensible position from which to fight—preferably higher ground—is a strategy for many halfling fighters. Their small stature allows them to hide more easily from danger, though, and in a rout a halfling is more likely to go to ground than to try to outrun his foes.

In short, light weapons as a last resort, ranged weapons (thrown and slings especially) as the default.

[JeenLeen]

I'm with most on thinking halfling vs. halfling combat (when using fisticuffs, as presumed in a fight club), most factors would cancel out so it would look like normal human fight club tactics.

Although this may differ depending on edition (if D&D) and the grappling rules of said edition.


Because it would be easier for halflings to lift each other, might they use more throws/ flips? Because they have less absolute strength, would holds for breaking joints and limbs be less effective? Because they're slower, would they be more aggressive since running isn't an effective option?

Most of these (I would think) cancel out in the sense of 'halflings have lower strength & carrying capacity' cancels out with 'halflings are easier to grapple, lift, etc.'. Though, as said above, depends on the grappling rules.
Less able to lift & throw likely to cancel out with easier to throw the person. Less absolute strength and ability to break out of grapples likely cancels out with less absolute strength and ability to maintain grapples. Although they are slower, they are still as fast as their opponent: don't see why 25 speed vs. 25 speed is different than 30 speed vs. 30 feed. Assuming normal fight club things like being in a ring or other place without hiding spots, it shouldn't really factor in.

Using some knowledge of halfling stats from D&D 3.5, I could see them being more likely to use Tumble-based tricks (bonus Dex) than humans. Maybe, instead of staying face-to-face, attack & tumble away (so avoid attack of opportunity) in a way to keep your foe from getting a full attack. Fights might take longer as halfling fists do less damage (small fist size, less Str, but no Con penalty to cancel out the lower damage/hit) and hit less often (Dex bonus means extra point of AC for your average halfling.)

[Vogie]

Well, I'd say the fights would be...shorter

Dang it, that was my first thought.

My thought is it would be more like the fights from Ip Man and less like the eponymous Fight Club Movie. Speed of strikes in lieu of strength of punches (Consecutive Normal Punches!). I would also expect them to be more three-dimensional than a typical MMA bout - with a lower center of gravity, a straight push or slide is less effective, and factoring their natural agility, there would be more yoda-jumping into slams during their fights. Because of this, maybe cage matches are the norm for 1v1 fisticuffs, while group fights would likely be a literal king of the hill fight as they would battle for the high ground. A Halfling, by name alone, exists in a world with sapient creatures larger than it, so their fighting style, even amongst themselves, should also be effective against larger targets.

Outside of Fisticuffs, I would expect that epee fencing would be popular, as well as some form of knife fighting, a la Dune. Jousting would be replaced by some form of competitive Sling, Bola, throwing axe or roping fights whilst mounted.

[gkathellar]

If we're strictly inferring from game mechanics and existing fluff, Psyren's got it covered. If we're trying to apply the principles of real life martial arts, however, all of the stuff written by game designers starts to look stupid. Which are you looking for, OP?

[Joe the Rat]

Since edition is not specified, let me throw the 5th ed version in:

Exactly like humans, with fewer grabs.
Since the whole down-size weapons and penalties are dropped, the average halfling and average human are equaly strong (Str 10). But the Halfling is more nimble (Dex 12). This means they are equally proficient at grappling, but better at avoiding or escaping grapples. They're natural squirmers. with 150 lb carry capacity, they can carry two bros to the human's one... with weight to spare.
(carrying capacity is halved per size cat below small, doubled per above medium. I myself prefer the 3/4 carry capacity with 1/2 weight wearables).

They also have the same leaping abilities - which becomes huge in comparison (a 10' leap or 3' vertical - when you're 3' tall - looks impressive).
Fisticuffs, outside of monastic training to the occasional tavern brawler, operate very much on the Western Barroom principle. Lots of punching and sliding and defenstration, but it takes a while to actually put someone down for the count. (unarmed strikes do 1+STR damage - so typical peasants can take 4 hits from one another). This is why chairs and bottles are so effective.
If you are serious about dueling, knife-fighting is likely the preferred mode. This lets them put their superior Dexterity to use (as they are finesse weapons), and possibly two-weapon. Obviously rapiers and the like provide superior damage, but the average halfling will not be proficient.

Actual warfare, they will go the archery route, most likely as skirmishers to take advantage of their ability to hide behind anything that isn't another halfling, and use speed bumps for partial cover.* Expect light cavalry and mounted archers - Mastiffs instead of ponies when available.

*-slight hyperbole.

[CharonsHelper]

Now - this post is ignoring specific game mechanics -

I think that flips/throws would be pretty useless against halflings. Those generally rely upon gravity to deal the damage, but due to the cubed to square ratio, a Halfling would take considerably less damage proportionally from falling. (same reason ants can take long falls and elephants don't really run)

Wrestling holds/grappling might be more effective with locks/holds due to their higher proportional strength. (again - cubed/square ratio - ants can lift 20x their weight because they're tiny, not because of super powers) A punch/kick would be less damaging because their foe would be thrown backwards rather than taking damage.

So - in unarmed combat the focus would be on locks and aiming at pinpoint spots (eyes/neck/groin etc.) to actually be able to deal damage without weapons.

[GeometryGuru]

If the halflings in question were anything like Belfar then the fights would be very graphic. Most likely a lot of dirty fighting (groin stomps, pressure points, eyes, etc), wrestling and depending on whether it would be a gladiatorial arena or just a pit would add a lot more violence to it.

I imagine it would be a lot like Hackmaster (if anyone reads KoDT...)

[JAL_1138]

One problem halflings would have with RL archery is that a longbow requires significant upper-body strength and the bow itself has to be quite tall to achieve a certain draw weight without risking breaking. Crossbows would be a better alternative, as they mitigate both issues.

D&D gives them a disadvantage with large weapons, which is unfortunate—from a real-world perspective they would probably want to use long two-handed polearms to help compensate for shorter reach, coupled with sufficient armor to compensate for the lack of shields.

If not, there is one historical Western-style army that eschewed long weapons—the Romans. However, D&D fails to give shields their proper usefulness compared to real combat, so the large shield + one-handed weapon combination is less effective than it was historically. (Of course they could also split the difference and use one-handed spears with shields). Halflings could take great advantage of shields that are proportionally larger to their body than humans at similar weight. Even with 3/4 encumbrance max, a 3/4-sized shield would still cover a larger portion of their body (and a normal-sized shield is practically a pavais for them), and because of halflings' short stature could make it even more difficult to get a decent angle of attack on them...but the halfling is still at a reach disadvantage even in extreme close-quarters.

In D&D, the answer is "I dunno/ it depends on edition and the applicable game mechanics." IRL, it's probably "crossbows for archery, and polearm formations with armor and/or shields for infantry."

[CharonsHelper]

If not, there is one historical Western-style army that eschewed long weapons—the Romans.

I'll jump in and say - they didn't actually eschew long weapons. Some of their veteran units did the spear & shield (designed to be holding units rather than dealing the damage), albeit much shorter spears than their Greek contemporaries. (maybe old school Greek length)

While their main troops used a gladius as their primary weapon (the only ancient army I know of to use swords as their primary rather than secondary) they also carried pilums. Arguably - the pilum was the more important of the two on the battlefield.

The standard Roman tactic was to throw 1-2 pilums into the opposing line as they drew their gladius & charged in (the back lines throwing only a couple seconds before the front line hit). They wouldn't do a ton of damage, but any kills/wounds they got would break up the opposing line & the pilums were designed to not come out of shields easily, ruining the shield line further. This was important as the reach disadvantage of the gladius would come to the fore against a solid enemy line, but a broken up enemy line would be easier to close with.

Plus - while not optimal, the pilum could also be used as a normal spear vs cavalry in a pinch. (I sure as heck wouldn't want to face down charging cavalry with a gladius.)

[Psyren]

One problem halflings would have with RL archery is that a longbow requires significant upper-body strength and the bow itself has to be quite tall to achieve a certain draw weight without risking breaking. Crossbows would be a better alternative, as they mitigate both issues.

Didn't Pygmies use bows though? I could see Halflings adopting the blowgun as a go-to weapon as well.

[JAL_1138]

I'll jump in and say - they didn't actually eschew long weapons. Some of their veteran units did the spear & shield (designed to be holding units rather than dealing the damage), albeit much shorter spears than their Greek contemporaries. (maybe old school Greek length)

While their main troops used a gladius as their primary weapon (the only ancient army I know of to use swords as their primary rather than secondary) they also carried pilums. Arguably - the pilum was the more important of the two on the battlefield.

The standard Roman tactic was to throw 1-2 pilums into the opposing line as they drew their gladius & charged in (the back lines throwing only a couple seconds before the front line hit). They wouldn't do a ton of damage, but any kills/wounds they got would break up the opposing line & the pilums were designed to not come out of shields easily, ruining the shield line further. This was important as the reach disadvantage of the gladius would come to the fore against a solid enemy line, but a broken up enemy line would be easier to close with.

Plus - while not optimal, the pilum could also be used as a normal spear vs cavalry in a pinch. (I sure as heck wouldn't want to face down charging cavalry with a gladius.)

Spear use depends on era. They had a gladius-using unit named "hastarti," for "spearmen," that used to use spears, and the tertiari (?) back line had them. Later on they sort of just standardized out, IIRC, and did away with a lot of the distinctions, as armor improved and became more widely-available..

The pilum was primarily a thrown weapon; its size was for momentum rather than reach on foot. It's balanced rather poorly to use as a one-handed spear (less reach, or else it becomes very point-heavy) but it was occasionally done. The point (no pun intended) was that it wasn't used as a long one-handed spear in any frequent or standard sense. That said, point (still no pun intended) taken regarding its use on helping to break the lines a bit.

Still, the larger point was that the gladius only worked as well as it did because it was paired with a large shield (scutum). Take the scutum away and it's a rubbish weapon—short reach, no hand protection to speak of, little defensive capability. Paired with a scutum, it's formidable. D&D gives so little import to the shield—just a slight AC boost—that the combination doesn't work like it should.



Didn't Pygmies use bows though? I could see Halflings adopting the blowgun as a go-to weapon as well.

Smallish, short-range, low-draw-weight bows (with poisoned arrows, at least among Bushmen) for hunting or fighting unarmored opponents at relatively close range, that would stand a snowball's chance in Baator of dealing with medieval-or-later armor. Even a gambeson (padded jacket) would stop a Bushman bow fairly well; mail plus gambeson would stop a pygmy bow fairly easily. Range would also be a severe limiting factor, since the other side will have longbows and crossbows. A war-bow typically needed to be 100+ pound draw (usually 120+, even) to be effective in the way it was used (and still had very little chance of piercing later plate harness).

For the context in which they were used, pygmy bows were perfectly adequate. You don't need an English warbow (and it will likely be at something of a disadvantage) in the context in which pygmy and bushman bows were/are used. But that context is very different to medieval warbows.

They'd be fantastic in Dark Sun (or Chult, if the heat penalty for heavy armor was actually severe enough to dissuade heavy armor use, which it really should be). But not in, say, northern Faerûn, where significant armor and longer-ranged, more powerful bows and crossbows are commonplace.

[CharonsHelper]

Still, the larger point was that the gladius only worked as well as it did because it was paired with a large shield (scutum). Take the scutum away and it's a rubbish weapon—short reach, no hand protection to speak of, little defensive capability. Paired with a scutum, it's formidable. D&D gives so little import to the shield—just a slight AC boost—that the combination doesn't work like it should.

Oh - definitely. The general rule was that the bigger your weapon, the smaller the shield. (and vice versa) I've actually heard a historian describe the gladius/scutum as a great way for a smaller man to fight a bigger man, which is apt as the Romans were often smaller than their foes, especially when fighting the Celts/Germanics - which was a lot of the time after The Punic Wars.

I meant to add to your point rather than outright disagree. The small weapon worked because they had ways to close the gap - partially the pilum breaking up lines and partially the big shield.

And I 100% agree that the pilum isn't optimal to use as a melee weapon, I only brought it up to point out that even the Romans didn't like to use their gladius against cavalry when they had an even mediocre spear as a second choice. Fortunately for the Romans, most of their foes didn't use much cavalry. (The Romans got stomped by horse archers a time or two, though they rarely travelled that far east. The only way real way for infantry to beat ranged cavalry was to have substantial infantry firepower, and the Romans never had many archers - likely because they were used to fighting shield walls.)

[Psyren]

Smallish, short-range, low-draw-weight bows (with poisoned arrows, at least among Bushmen) for hunting or fighting unarmored opponents at relatively close range, that would stand a snowball's chance in Baator of dealing with medieval-or-later armor. Even a gambeson (padded jacket) would stop a Bushman bow fairly well; mail plus gambeson would stop a pygmy bow fairly easily. Range would also be a severe limiting factor, since the other side will have longbows and crossbows. A war-bow typically needed to be 100+ pound draw (usually 120+, even) to be effective in the way it was used (and still had very little chance of piercing later plate harness).

For the context in which they were used, pygmy bows were perfectly adequate. You don't need an English warbow (and it will likely be at something of a disadvantage) in the context in which pygmy and bushman bows were/are used. But that context is very different to medieval warbows.

They'd be fantastic in Dark Sun (or Chult, if the heat penalty for heavy armor was actually severe enough to dissuade heavy armor use, which it really should be). But not in, say, northern Faerûn, where significant armor and longer-ranged, more powerful bows and crossbows are commonplace.

Sure, sure, but they didn't really have a reason to make anything better. Halflings do; there's much worse things out there than some tapirs or a hippo. So I'd expect the bows to get a bit of an upgrade.

Shortbows work fine while mounted too, and D&D has riding dogs, easily tameable wolves and other conveniences.

[JAL_1138]

Sure, sure, but they didn't really have a reason to make anything better. Halflings do; there's much worse things out there than some tapirs or a hippo. So I'd expect the bows to get a bit of an upgrade.

Shortbows work fine while mounted too, and D&D has riding dogs, easily tameable wolves and other conveniences.


Mongol-type recurve horse-bows I'm not terribly familiar with...but from what I gather, they were also typically taller or the same height as a halfling and, importantly, took a longer draw than a halfling could manage.

Draw weight is largely a function of bow size and thickness, unless you start getting into exotic materials. To get 120-lb draws out of yew self-bows, they tent to be taller than a 3ft-4ft person could reasonably manage. Halflings also have short arms, limiting how far back they can draw a conventional bow.

Crossbows would work fantastically well for halfling purposes, though. Relatively compact, drawn with a windlass or cranequin (or goatsfoot lever or belt-hooked ropes for smaller, lighter varieties), so draw length wouldn't be an issue either, and comparable to warbows in power and not massively disadvantaged in range. They'd allow for the large-volume, long-range massed fire of, say, English archers while mitigating some of the physical disadvantage. Plus they require less training, making it somewhat easier to field troops. The rate of fire is slower, but can be compensated for by simply fielding more archers with less training and thus more cheaply. Same reasons they were popular across continental Europe even while the English stuck to longbows.

[Pugwampy]

Mexican dwarf wrestlng ....:smalltongue:

[Guizonde]

i don't know about you guys, but i never picture halflings with bows. crossbows, maybe. slings and sling-staffs? oh yes. perhaps their slings would be shorter ranged than a human sized one (since the length of the lanyards determines the maximum fulcrum point, you'd get more momentum on a long sling than a short one, i think), but even a short sling would throw a bullet or a stone fast and hard enough to hurt a lot. the romans used slings extensively with lethal results. what's worse than one sling bullet thrown at you? 50 sling bullets volley fired at you every few seconds.

i have personal experience with slings. they're tough to aim and learn to master, but not nearly as physical or unwieldy as a bow. and i'm an archer. my bow is a bit taller than me, and i have to draw it english-style (bending the string to behind the ear) to get the most power out of it. that's a bit over a 4ft draw. if someone better at math could solve this, i'll gladly provide the measurements.

i'm 5'10 1/2" tall, my recurve bow is 6'2" long, and i've got wings for it in 28 and 40lb draw weights. i draw it out about 4 feet to send an arrow hitting a target reliably at 150 yards (any farther and it's guesswork, but i lost an arrow beyond the 300 yard mark).

so, what would it be for a halfling of half my height? or just a hair under 3ft tall?

as an aside, with little training, i can draw a 40lb bow for hours on end. a 60 will tire me out after 3 hours. i've never tried above that. i imagine that had i undergone the 100-years war british training regimen, i'd be able to use warbows (150+ draws), and as i said, i'm a pretty average sized human. no way that halflings would count on that for damage. i'm voting for slings, plus, iirc there was in 2e a halfling only prc called the halfling outrider that was a mounted slinger. combine that with the halfling rock throwing champion, and your slinger could pull trick shots that would baffle even the 4th wall. oddly, i've never played either prc. my dm's don't like me playing halflings.

[Knaight]

For the strength thing, are you talking 3e/PF? Because they not only get a Str penalty there, they also have lower encumbrance even if they have equal strength to a human. It's not precise but I'd call it a wash all the same.
The average (10.5, interpolated) human heavy load is 107.5 pounds. The average (8.5, interpolated) halfling heavy load is 63.75 pounds. Meanwhile the average human weight is well above 107.5 pounds, while halflings average well below 63.73 pounds. This suggests (in an unarmed context) that violently tossing is likely to be more common, which translates to more grappling generally.


i don't know about you guys, but i never picture halflings with bows. crossbows, maybe. slings and sling-staffs? oh yes. perhaps their slings would be shorter ranged than a human sized one (since the length of the lanyards determines the maximum fulcrum point, you'd get more momentum on a long sling than a short one, i think), but even a short sling would throw a bullet or a stone fast and hard enough to hurt a lot. the romans used slings extensively with lethal results. what's worse than one sling bullet thrown at you? 50 sling bullets volley fired at you every few seconds.

They'd lose a lot of range - the sling effectively extends the throw of an arm, but if you've experimented with longer slings (5' and upwards retention/release cords) you'll notice that your range doesn't extend nearly as far as the changed sling length ratio or even sling+arm length ratio would suggest. Meanwhile a halfling using a pretty normally sized sling (3' or so retention/release cords) is going to run into that same problem compared to a fairly short sling.

I suspect it still works out well ahead of a human sized person just throwing rocks - speaking from experience here, I can sling a rock a 200 yards on a good day. Throwing meanwhile is running closer to 30 (which is admittedly pretty bad). Still a 4-1 distance ratio from sling to throw is hardly unreasonable, and halflings getting a whole quarter of a human's throwing distance seems a bit of an excessively low estimate.

[BWR]

Kinda like those child muay thai fights only less offensive.

[RazorChain]

like this I guess


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCnRQHQQi1M

[Psyren]

The average (10.5, interpolated) human heavy load is 107.5 pounds. The average (8.5, interpolated) halfling heavy load is 63.75 pounds. Meanwhile the average human weight is well above 107.5 pounds, while halflings average well below 63.73 pounds. This suggests (in an unarmed context) that violently tossing is likely to be more common, which translates to more grappling generally.

Actually, the average Halfling heavy load using your calculations is closer to 50 lbs. First of all, in D&D you round fractional attributes down (so 8.5 Str = 8 Str), and second of all - as I stated above - Small creatures shrink the encumbrance values below what is on the table (to ¾ what is shown there.)

The weight of an average halfling male is 30, thus they'd be at the upper end of medium encumbrance while lifting even a naked one, never mind if any gear comes into play.


@JAL: I agree crossbows would likely be superior, but all we can really point to there is general D&D anachronism. The game even acknowledges that crossbows are easier to learn (making them Simple while bows are Martial) yet bows are still somehow more common among armies.

[Knaight]

Actually, the average Halfling heavy load using your calculations is closer to 50 lbs. First of all, in D&D you round fractional attributes down (so 8.5 Str = 8 Str), and second of all - as I stated above - Small creatures shrink the encumbrance values below what is on the table (to ¾ what is shown there.)

This isn't a matter of fractional attributes though - the individual halflings are centered around 8 and 9, they don't get 8.5 generated at any point. The multiplication by 0.75 was also already taken into account; interpolation on the table alone gets 85 lbs.

On top of that, even that 50 lbs that you generated through largely incorrect math still works out to halflings being able to generally lift each other much more easily than humans, with weights that tend to exceed their carrying capacity.

[Psyren]

This isn't a matter of fractional attributes though - the individual halflings are centered around 8 and 9, they don't get 8.5 generated at any point. The multiplication by 0.75 was also already taken into account; interpolation on the table alone gets 85 lbs.

On top of that, even that 50 lbs that you generated through largely incorrect math still works out to halflings being able to generally lift each other much more easily than humans, with weights that tend to exceed their carrying capacity.

My math was based on the following:

- Going to the 8 Str row on the table (average Str of 10, -2 for Halfling)
- Going to the heavy load values on that row (54-80 lbs, average 67)
- Multiplying those values by 0.75 (40.5 - 60 lbs, average 50.25, rounding down to 50.)

If you use the minimum value for heavy load (40.5) rather than the average of 50, it gets even worse. I have no idea where you're getting 85 lbs from.

[Knaight]

My math was based on the following:

- Going to the 8 Str row on the table (average Str of 10, -2 for Halfling)
- Going to the heavy load values on that row (54-80 lbs, average 67)
- Multiplying those values by 0.75 (40.5 - 60 lbs, average 50.25, rounding down to 50.)

If you use the minimum value for heavy load (40.5) rather than the average of 50, it gets even worse. I have no idea where you're getting 85 lbs from.

Here's how:
1) Go to the 8 and 9 Str row on the table (averages are 10-11 rolled, -2).
2) Note that the upper range of heavy load is 80 and 90 lbs.
3) Take the average, and get 85 pounds.

That gets the 85, and multiplying by 0.75 gets the 63.75 value I used.

But fine, we can use the averages of the heavy load values and count the average as 10 and not 10-11. I'll just use the same method for humans, all values will get reduced, and the same general trend works.

A heavy load is 67-100 pounds, average of 83.5. So now we have humans routinely at twice that for weight, while halflings will almost never hit their above heavy load point. The underlying argument that halflings are much stronger for their weight still holds. The middle value of the heavy load range for average strengths using the low average value* (your average) and the average upper limit on heavy loads across both median strength values* (my average) tell the same story.

*It's like weight weighted molecular weight all over again.

[Psyren]

Why would you go to the upper range of heavy load? It becomes a heavy load the instant you cross that lower bound. Sure you can lift it, but it isn't exactly practical. (You lose a bunch of defenses, for one thing, especially if you're a monk.) Even a medium load has penalties.

[Knaight]

Why would you go to the upper range of heavy load? It becomes a heavy load the instant you cross that lower bound. Sure you can lift it, but it isn't exactly practical. (You lose a bunch of defenses, for one thing, especially if you're a monk.) Even a medium load has penalties.

Again, it doesn't actually matter - the heavy load is just used as an indication of relative lifting strength vs. weight data, and as long as it's used consistently it works just fine. You could use the middle range of light load and it would still work out the same.

With that said, measuring strength by the most that can be lifted is pretty standard, and while there are ways to go above the upper heavy load they're all multiplicative and can't be used in a combat situation.

[Psyren]

But the most you can lift is exactly that, the most. It's not a measure of what's sustainable or practical, and the mechanical penalties to being heavily or even medium encumbered reflect that.

At least I finally know where our disconnect is coming from, we have fundamentally different premises going in.

[Frozen_Feet]

Due to higher strength proportionate to body weight, it would be harder for a halfling to pin another halfling, than for a human to do the same to another human. Due to shorter height and weight, halflings would also be less injured by being thrown by another halfling, yet also easier for another halfling to throw compared to a human throwing another human.

Based on this, I'd expect halfling wrestling matches to be hectic, with lots of tossing and tumbling. Also, a halfling's fighting style would have to be dramatically different against human-sized opponents, than other halflings.

[Seerow]

But the most you can lift is exactly that, the most. It's not a measure of what's sustainable or practical, and the mechanical penalties to being heavily or even medium encumbered reflect that.

At least I finally know where our disconnect is coming from, we have fundamentally different premises going in.

A maximum heavy load you can lift and carry around all day with no more penalty than a speed penalty/acp penalty similar to wearing armor. It doesn't become impractical/unsustainable until you get above the heavy load. Remember that you can lift up to double your heavy load over your head if needed.

[Psyren]

A maximum heavy load you can lift and carry around all day with no more penalty than a speed penalty/acp penalty similar to wearing armor.

It counts as heavy armor for other purposes too, so for instance if you're a monk or brawler (the kinds of folks that would be wrestling in the first place) you'll lose a slew of bonuses there too.


It doesn't become impractical/unsustainable until you get above the heavy load. Remember that you can lift up to double your heavy load over your head if needed.

Certainly - but you can only move 5ft while doing it, can't take any other actions, and you lose all your Dex and dodge bonuses at a minimum. So that's not really conducive/comparable to typical combat conditions. As you noted, it's the difference between "physically possible" and "practical."