My Druid Player found a polymorph cheat code?

[KittenEV]

So, I have this Druid in my game. And he chose polymorph for one of his fourth level spells, which is fine. But the thing is, his favorite thing to do now is to transform either himself or one of the other party members into a T-Rex because of their hit points and high damage attacks. At first it was funny, and then it got sort of annoying, but now I think he found a cheat code that is really ridiculous.

He casts conjure woodland beings and summons a whole bunch of pixies, and then he commands them to use their own polymorph spell on all of the party members so EVERYONE is a T-Rex...

And I can't find a rule or anything that would disallow that, but he's using it like every encounter. So now I just have a pack of T-Rexs as a party.

What do I do as a DM?

[mephnick]

So, I have this Druid in my game. And he chose polymorph for one of his fourth level spells, which is fine. But the thing is, his favorite thing to do now is to transform either himself or one of the other party members into a T-Rex because of their hit points and high damage attacks. At first it was funny, and then it got sort of annoying, but now I think he found a cheat code that is really ridiculous.

He casts conjure woodland beings and summons a whole bunch of pixies, and then he commands them to use their own polymorph spell on all of the party members so EVERYONE is a T-Rex...

And I can't find a rule or anything that would disallow that, but he's using it like every encounter. So now I just have a pack of T-Rexs as a party.

What do I do as a DM?

The DM ultimately decides what creatures show up when conjured. The player simply picks the number and CR.

Or you could allow him to choose and just tell him to stop being a dink.

[Tanarii]

Don't allow pixies.

https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.03.pdf

When you cast a spell like conjure woodland beings, does the spellcaster or the DM choose the creatures that are conjured? A number of spells in the game let you summon creatures. Conjure animals, conjure celestial, conjure minor elementals, and conjure woodland beings are just a few examples.
Some spells of this sort specify that the spellcaster chooses the creature conjured. For example, find familiar gives the caster a list of animals to choose from. Other spells of this sort let the spellcaster choose from among several broad options. For example, conjure minor elementals offers four options. Here are the first two:
• One elemental of challenge rating 2 or lower
• Two elementals of challenge rating 1 or lower
The design intent for options like these is that the spellcaster chooses one of them, and then the DM decides what creatures appear that fit the chosen option. For example, if you pick the second option, the DM chooses the two elementals that have a challenge rating of 1 or lower. A spellcaster can certainly express a preference for what creatures shows up, but it’s up to the DM to determine if they do. The DM will often choose creatures that are appropriate for the campaign and that will be fun to introduce in a scene.

[daltonispanda]

Technically, the player decides the CR of what he summons with Conjure Woodland Beings, but the DM decides which creatures are actually summoned. If it is really becoming a problem, give him Sprites or Blink Dogs instead.

[suplee215]

Pixies' polymorph is one of the most insane things in the game. RAW he's allowed to do it. But remember, this game is supposed to be fun and most people would agree it is bull****. Now we are in a delicate situation of being the DM but not ruining other people's fun. The first thing to do is to ask everyone in the game how they feel about it. Do they like every encounter being the same? Ultimately it will come down to talking to the player and using the DM trump card of "I'm in charge and I'm saying no". That can be difficult to do and might cause some tension depending on the player and other players but DM has final decision for a reason. A secondary, less effective thing to do is to just fireball the pixies every combat until he stops.

[Tanarii]

Also, you could ban polymorphing into things the PC hasn't seen before.

Or say T-Rexs / dinosaurs / pre-historic animals don't existing on your world in the current era. I mean, that's pretty much my go-to default assumption. Why should a player assume dinosaurs & sabre-tooth tigers exist? Just because they're in the MM?

[Saggo]

If the player gets pixies, there's nothing strictly prohibiting mass ploymorphing T-Rexes.

RAI on Conjure X is clear as it's been mentioned above, RAW is personally interpretable at best. RAI is perhaps the easiest way to balance variety back in. I would suggest if you choose to go with RAI that, since you've set a precedence of allowing the player to choose, you discuss the changes before the Druid tries it again. Most people don't like it when the rules are seemingly arbitrarily changed at play time, no indications.

[Tanarii]

If the player gets pixies, there's nothing strictly prohibiting mass ploymorphing T-Rexes.Yeah, I should have been clear my suggestions about banning T-rexs etc were house-rule suggestions.

[StoicLeaf]

Also, you could ban polymorphing into things the PC hasn't seen before.

Or say T-Rexs / dinosaurs / pre-historic animals don't existing on your world in the current era. I mean, that's pretty much my go-to default assumption. Why should a player assume dinosaurs & sabre-tooth tigers exist? Just because they're in the MM?

this.
polymorph requires familiarity with the animal you want to polymorph into. (or rather the druid shape shifting ability does, if you extend that logically to polymorph ...)
T-rexes are .. limited to chult. The chances of a randomly summoned pixie knowing about them is reaaaaally low.

Keep their concentration rolls in mind and once you start throwing mages at them, you can either do the same lame gimmick or simply just start dispelling/CCing the pixies to break concentration.

another simple workaround is to cast magic missiles at the pixies. they have 1 hp each, MM doesn't miss, no pixies, no concentration, problem solved!

[Saggo]

Yeah, I should have been clear my suggestions about banning T-rexs etc were house-rule suggestions.

Apologies, I was only stressing that it's a legal tactic only if you get Pixies when you cast. RAI certainly makes that unreliable.

Limiting Polymorph, Wild Shape, or Shapechange to campaign/world-specific creatures seems to be a pretty common Rule 0 or house-rule.

[Chugger]

You mean things the pixies have seen before.

Look, everyone means well here - and options are great - but the above poster or posters who said talk to the table - that was spot on, at least from my experience.

It's really important not to abuse your power as a DM and to be as diplomatic as possible - while maintaining your power - it's a balancing act. But you are not God; alas you are only a lower-case-g "god". And the other players can decide to watch a movie or play WoW or in some way tell you they don't like your rulings. You have to earn your power. Diplomacy or some form of it is probably your best tool for doing this.

Why? Even if you're "right", when you appear to be heavy-handed, players resent it - and you burn up credibility capital with them each time you're heavy-handed - less so when you're "right" and they see it. But instead of burning up your credibility capital or favorability points or w/e we're going to call this esoteric thing, if you get the players on your side before making a ruling - so it's as if they approved it - and it's for their own good that you're doing it - then you built points with them. Rather than burning them.

I think it's always the stronger option, long term. So get them to see that T-rex each major battle is actually ruining the game for them and for their own good ... and let them say "okay, yeah, I guess it has to go." Then soften the blow. You can still polymorph someone into that - that's cool - cuz as a DM you can handle one T-rex player presumably - you just throw more monsters at them or in some way up the challenge. It's just the pixies and whole party as T-rex has to go.

RAW polymorph does not say the caster has to have seen a t-rex - you could always add that of course - or you could say t-rexes don't exist - you can do all sorts of things. But you've already allowed them - I'd try pulling back from the pixie trick and zotz that - and see how it goes.

But always try to get the party to see why changes have to be done and be clever. Don't appear too weak as you do this. Be strong but try to get them to make the choice that you have to make - if they see it has to be done and agree, everything will be much smoother than if you just lay down the law.

[Citan]

another simple workaround is to cast magic missiles at the pixies. they have 1 hp each, MM doesn't miss, no pixies, no concentration, problem solved!
As far as in-game problem solving goes, this is by far the most elegant solution.

1st level spell means you could expect any enemy caster to have it, and it would also strike a good lesson about most seemingly unstoppable tricks have a big flaw that can void them instantly (so you must restrain from counting too much about it).

With that said, I agree with talking out of game being the primary solution. If everyone is having fun like this, try to ease them into understanding that it's not fun for you. If they are any reasonable they'll progressively change.

[Toadkiller]

Have the next battle occur on a frozen lake, with insufficient thickness to support dinosaurs. (They should likely have a chance to understand that). T. rex doesn’t swim really good I don’t imagine.

Or in a cavern that is too short.

Or the enemy is smart enough to blast him and/or pixies to break concentration. Magic missle is good for multiple hits. A goblin in good rocky cover with a wand would be deadly.

Or in a zone of magical permanence - they STAY T. rex for awhile.

Or the dragons are very tough, even for dino’s.

[GlenSmash!]

Sound like you have a player that likes to try and "break" the game. Talk to the player and ask them not to do that.

[SharkForce]

my solution:

1) fix the CR of pixies. their CR is wildly innacurate, and should be at *least* CR 1/2 if you assign *zero* value to the sleep spell (it actually works out to somewhere between 1/2 and 1 iirc), and that's also assuming you think the only part of polymorph and confusion that matter are their save DCs.

personally, i consider them to be CR 1. they may have 1 HP, but they have a lot of other defenses (natural invisibility, extremely high AC for their HP value, flight + ranged attacks, good stealth) that increase their defensive CR substantially, and their offensive punch is not nearly bad enough to bring them down to the CR they have.

of course, 2 (or 4 if you like the 1/2 valuation better) pixies still gets out of hand if you let them polymorph 2 (or 4) people into giant apes or t-rexes, but that's mostly because polymorph is broken as heck until you run out of appropriate beasts to turn into. which leads to...

2) polymorph has a maximum CR based on the level of the spell slot, not based on the level or CR of the target. by default, i would make it CR 4 for a level 4 spell slot. for creatures that use the spell (by which i mostly mean pixies), i would treat it as coming from a much lower level spell slot (probably 1 in the case of pixies). if you feel like max CR for polymorph = spell slot level is too little, you can bump it up a bit (for example to max CR = spell slot level +1), but frankly the spell already has pretty good utility value (turn into things that fly, swim, dig, climb, have echolocation, are effective at grappling, have an HP buffer, can hide well, can track by scent, etc) as well as solid debuffing power (turn a CR 10 opponent into a CR 1 creature with almost no offense, until you're ready to deal with them, as well as potentially making people vulnerable to effects like sleep, disintegrate, power word kill, or even just drastically lower saves against spells like banishment). it really doesn't need to have obscene combat buffing power on top of everything else it can do.

because seriously, conjure woodland beings is pretty much fine when you fix those other 2 problems. your druid can call his 2 (or 4) pixies and not cause massive problems, and you don't have to be a **** every time he wants to conjure something because most other things don't really cause balance problems (8 sprites may slow down combat somewhat, but they're probably not going to turn the boss fight into a total cakewalk). the problems you're seeing mostly come from pixies having a wildly inaccurate CR, and polymorph being a very overpowered spell.

[Coffee_Dragon]

What do I do as a DM?

"Guys, this pixie thing is unbalanced and unfun and I don't want to run that genre of fantasy where the heroes react to every violent encounter by turning into T-Rexes. Let's just not do it. Or if you must do it, I'll take a break from DMing for a while and one of you can step in. To save some time, I'll be playing a T-Rex."

[Tanarii]

Or in a cavern that is too short.Definitely an issue. I'm running Caves of Chaos for a group right now. The party Moon druid is finding CR 1 Dire Wolf and Brown Bear a bit of a tight fit. Passages allow a Large creature, but he's considering going down to CR 1/2 Ape or Black Bear (Medium) just for enhanced party mobility and getting more than one person on the front line.

[Sigreid]

Before you have the chat, have an encounter in a room with a low ceiling. 👿

[Unoriginal]

There is something that needs to be said: T-Rexes are not smart animals.

In fact, they're pretty dumb.

The Druid might get a gang of T-Rex, but then you can have them be outsmarted by a group of Ogres or Trolls who want the glory of defeating/the joy of eating "those adventurers who transforms in weird dragons that people are talking about".

I'm sure having the PCs getting tricked by ogres or trolls, who prepared some rudimentary traps beforehand and are using basic tactics (like digging a big hole and making them fall into it) would be quite useful in showing the limitation of a T-Rex gang

And that's not even going into what *smart* opponents can do. Don't even need to nerf the pixie use.

[Coffee_Dragon]

You have to earn your power.

Don't appear too weak as you do this.

I would actually hope that the social dynamic doesn't look like this at too many tables.

[thoroughlyS]

In addition to targeting the Pixies, you can have the party fight in environments that don't support Tyrannosaurs or have them fight an enemy that they can't deal with while polymorphed. For example:

Fight in tunnels fit for Large or smaller creatures. (The players would have to squeeze)
Fight in the dark. (Tyrannosaurs don't have darkvision)
Fight on a narrow path. (Player's will have to fight one by one)
Fight on a cliff. (If the player falls, they're out of that fight)
Fight things that can grapple.(Shuts down melee)
Fight things that can fly.(Shuts down melee harder)
Fight things with high ranges.
Fight things that have magic.
Fight dragons. (Basically the previous three options).
Fight in an antimagic zone. (Less fun)

In addition to these recommendations, keep two things in mind:
Your players are 8th level now, they should be fighting things that take more ingenuity than "I run up and multiattack".
Not everything has to be a combat. A T Rex can't help with a murder mystery.

[Unoriginal]

Or just have people focus on the Druid once it becomes know they're the one responsible for that.

[Strangways]

So, I have this Druid in my game. And he chose polymorph for one of his fourth level spells, which is fine. But the thing is, his favorite thing to do now is to transform either himself or one of the other party members into a T-Rex because of their hit points and high damage attacks. At first it was funny, and then it got sort of annoying, but now I think he found a cheat code that is really ridiculous.

He casts conjure woodland beings and summons a whole bunch of pixies, and then he commands them to use their own polymorph spell on all of the party members so EVERYONE is a T-Rex...

And I can't find a rule or anything that would disallow that, but he's using it like every encounter. So now I just have a pack of T-Rexs as a party.

What do I do as a DM?

There are two separate problems here, the polymorph problem and the conjure woodland beings problem.

For the second problem, as other people have noted, he doesn't get to control what shows up in response to a Conjure Woodland Beings spell, the DM does. If something other than pixies shows up, it will be much less of an issue, especially if the enemy spell caster wins initiative and blows them all away with a single fireball or cone of cold.

For the second problem, there's no basis in the rules for enforcing a requirement that he have seen a T-Rex before polymorphing something into it. That restriction is written into the druid wild shape description, but not written into the description of the polymorph spell, so the reasonable inference is that the polymorph spell doesn't have such a restriction. But turning a party member into a T-Rex doesn't result in an auto-win by any means. Where is your enemy spell caster and why isn't he counter spelling that? If he's too far away for counter spell, he'll still see the druid cast it and can target the druid with something that will break his concentration and end the polymorph. Likewise, a super fast enemy monk with four stun attacks per round could target the druid and ruin his day. Even the T-Rex is not invincible. Sure he's a strong fighter, but his INT, WIS and CHA saves aren't any better than they were before. Any wizard can toss that T-Rex into a lightless pit 50' underground (or so the T-Rex will believe) with a mere second level phantasmal force and if your T-Rex is a fighter with INT as his dump stat, good luck beating the wizard's spell DC with an investigation check to realize it's an illusion. Overall, in other words, polymorph to a T-Rex is a powerful strategy in some cases, and rightly so, it's a great spell. Personally, I think it's an especially good tactic as a de facto heal - cast it on a party member down to his last hit point and suddenly he's got a ton of temporary hit points to carry on the battle. But it doesn't deserve an arbitrary DM veto. As someone else has noted, that will cost you valuable DM credibility that you'll need down the road. Instead, I'd suggest dealing with it by presenting them with smarter opponents who don't just mindlessly fight the T-Rex with physical combat.

[Malifice]

So, I have this Druid in my game. And he chose polymorph for one of his fourth level spells, which is fine. But the thing is, his favorite thing to do now is to transform either himself or one of the other party members into a T-Rex because of their hit points and high damage attacks. At first it was funny, and then it got sort of annoying, but now I think he found a cheat code that is really ridiculous.

He casts conjure woodland beings and summons a whole bunch of pixies, and then he commands them to use their own polymorph spell on all of the party members so EVERYONE is a T-Rex...

And I can't find a rule or anything that would disallow that, but he's using it like every encounter. So now I just have a pack of T-Rexs as a party.

What do I do as a DM?

1. The DM determines what monsters summon spells summon not the player. If you don't want pixies don't let him have them.

2. They're pixies. Theyre NPCs. The DM plays them. Have them interpret 'polymorph me into a T-rex' in an unexpected and hilarious (to the pixies) way.

[Asmotherion]

Perspective A: You are anoyed because your CR needs to be re-calculated etc.

Perspective B: Player has found a creative way to use his spells. Wile RAW may have some implications that disallow choosing the creature summoned or something, I find this rule stupid, as everyone bothering to summon something wants to choose the thing (yes, I'm saying that as a DM, not a player).

How I'd handle it: Either have a bunsh of things capable to give a bunsh of T-Rexes a tough time (Enlarged Red Half-Dragon Dragonborn Warlock/Paladin of Tiamat makes for a nice and thematic Kaiju Fight at lower Levels, wile at higher levels you can just throw them the real thing, an actual Chromatic Dragon), or just have lots of casters with Counterspell/Dispel Magic for the Summon, making it an occasional thing. Include areas were a T-Rex won't fit in like inside dungeon corridors.

I generally don't like robbing players of their abilities, but instead giving them realistic situations were doing so would not work. If 4/10 times they can pull their trick, I won't mind, and consider it their default strategy. However, if they are for example on a boat and someone has the damned idea to turn into a T-Rex, fight or not, the ship will sink due to overweight, and I won't be to blame. :)

[Biggstick]

There is something that needs to be said: T-Rexes are not smart animals.

This this this. A T-Rex has an Intelligence of 2 and a Wisdom of 12. They no longer speak any languages. And they're probably hungry. A T-Rex is going to eat living creatures that it's pretty sure it can eat, other then it's own young. The party (as long as they're not also turned into a T-Rex) is not it's young, meaning they're a bunch of tasty little snacks.

Sure, the creature that's been Polymorphed still has it's personality, but it now has a whole new set of instincts that should be the driving force of how they perceive the world when in this form. And a T-Rex is going to perceive most of the living creatures smaller then it as potential food.

As advice for the OP/DM, where are the Players turning into T-Rexes? Are they in civilized society? Are they around people that have to be protected, or are they in an area where they can rampantly destroy everything in their path? Have some of your bads escape the situation, and reveal to the surrounding towns/cities that massive dinosaurs are destroying the countryside!

I also wouldn't allow the use of Pixies in this fashion either though personally. Another point of contention; the Pixies have to maintain concentration on the spell. They're pretty easy to kill, and someone might be able to break the concentration or kill them as another fix for the problem.

[Chugger]

Let me humbly suggest that using your power as a DM to "teach a player a lesson" (as some are suggesting) is a very slippery slope and one that I would avoid. Every tactic has an Achilles Heel, and if you want you can spring that on an abusive player like a rat trap. A t-rex'd party can run into meta-imbued casters who have cast see invis and who can MM the pixies, sure - and the party can find out they've angered a group of powerful beings by abusing the trex tactic and can expect more of this in the future - and this is fine as long as it's a natural part of the world and not done specifically to humiliate or put down or harm a player - but in this case it clearly is not that. There is a fine line between being the "lower-case-g-god" of your own little fantasy world and being a "lower-case-s-satanic-bully" of said little fantasy world. "Teaching lessons" very quickly gets out of hand and causes bad blood and ... well, if you must do it, go ahead, do it. You'll see what happens. It may even work out for you - it doesn't always backfire. I'm not speaking from a standpoint of "certain knowledge" here! Of course not! I'm talking about the odds - the odds I've witnessed over the years.

Abusive or heavy-handed lessons to tackle a player abuse ... is that really the style of DMing you want to adopt? Really? What if there's a much better way?

A lot of wise DMs have said on this forum to not use the game to work out problems of a certain nature - that some problems must be resolved outside the game (or are better resolved outside the game). Once you grasp your limitations being a lower-case-g-god, you'll understand this (or begin to - heck I'm still working on it myself - it's not easy - it's a long journey). Good luck!

[pwykersotz]

Another "fix" I have heard suggested from back in the 3.5 days is to have summons who cast require one of your spell slots to do it. This prevents a lot of summon-spellcasting abuse, as it does improve the action economy of a few of your casts, but drains you quickly.

And I'm with everyone who simply advises to talk to the players about it. Honestly, I'd let them know that it was fun the first couple times, but that exploits are not the game. That you'll be putting special rules in place to curb this if it continues, either by enforcing the written rules of the DM choosing summons, or by limiting it in other ways. Most players should be on board with that talk. I've never had a problem saying it at my table.

[Armored Walrus]

Good advice on interpersonal relationships.

This post is not a D&D question. It's a "how do I get along with my friend that's ruining my game" question. Ignore the other posts. D&D rules don't have an answer for you. Dear Abby does. You're friends, or at least acquaintances. Don't come get advice from a bunch of strangers about how to get along with your friends.

If you go hang out on chess forums, you don't see people going on there and posting stuff like. "This friend I play with always uses the French Defense, even though he knows I suck against it and don't like it. How can the rules of chess help me get him to stop doing that?"



But if you want a D&D answer, one that I haven't seen posted yet in this thread, remember that polymorph causes the affected creature to have the physical and mental stats of the new form.

Edit: went back and reread, and yeah, this was already brought up. Just go talk to your players...

[StoicLeaf]

RE: talking to your players.

I'd be careful about this.
You've been presented with many in game solutions to this particular problem. I would hope your friends aren't the sort to get butthurt because you (finally) found a way to trivialise their cheese strategy. (even if they are, the onus is now on them to talk to you about it).
Talking to them implies a problem not inherent to the game itself, but to the relationships you have with these people.

Basically you're saying:
"Guys, you're powergaming this and I can't handle it."
I suppose this has some merit and will help you in the long run, it's just an entirely different kettle of fish.
My worry here is that: powergamers are the competitive sort. By admitting you can't cope with it, you're signalling weakness (or an inability to compete, take your pick) and ultimately will never be respected as the DM as the others are now all pulling their punches.

But, again, you know you, you know your friends, take whichever course fits best.

[Coidzor]

RE: talking to your players.

I'd be careful about this.
You've been presented with many in game solutions to this particular problem. I would hope your friends aren't the sort to get butthurt because you (finally) found a way to trivialise their cheese strategy. (even if they are, the onus is now on them to talk to you about it).
Talking to them implies a problem not inherent to the game itself, but to the relationships you have with these people.

Basically you're saying:
"Guys, you're powergaming this and I can't handle it."
I suppose this has some merit and will help you in the long run, it's just an entirely different kettle of fish.
My worry here is that: powergamers are the competitive sort. By admitting you can't cope with it, you're signalling weakness (or an inability to compete, take your pick) and ultimately will never be respected as the DM as the others are now all pulling their punches.

But, again, you know you, you know your friends, take whichever course fits best.

It's not getting "butthurt" to recognize when the DM is overreacting and going out of his way to be a ****, like many of the suggestions upthread entail.

Talking to them like they're all reasonable facsimiles of adults or the better class of teenager is infinitely preferable to petty behavior that begets petty behavior.

[sithlordnergal]

Perspective A: You are anoyed because your CR needs to be re-calculated etc.

Perspective B: Player has found a creative way to use his spells. Wile RAW may have some implications that disallow choosing the creature summoned or something, I find this rule stupid, as everyone bothering to summon something wants to choose the thing (yes, I'm saying that as a DM, not a player).

How I'd handle it: Either have a bunsh of things capable to give a bunsh of T-Rexes a tough time (Enlarged Red Half-Dragon Dragonborn Warlock/Paladin of Tiamat makes for a nice and thematic Kaiju Fight at lower Levels, wile at higher levels you can just throw them the real thing, an actual Chromatic Dragon), or just have lots of casters with Counterspell/Dispel Magic for the Summon, making it an occasional thing. Include areas were a T-Rex won't fit in like inside dungeon corridors.

I generally don't like robbing players of their abilities, but instead giving them realistic situations were doing so would not work. If 4/10 times they can pull their trick, I won't mind, and consider it their default strategy. However, if they are for example on a boat and someone has the damned idea to turn into a T-Rex, fight or not, the ship will sink due to overweight, and I won't be to blame. :)

I like this fix. Since you already gave the player the ability to summon pixies, he'll notice if he stops summoning pixies all of the sudden. What I would do is set up encounters in places where a T-Rex won't work at well. For example, T-Rex's do not have darkvision. So if you attack them at night with beings who can see in the dark, the T-Rex will have disadvantage on all their attacks. Or force them into areas smaller then a 15 ft. cube, now there isn't enough room for a single T-Rex. Or attack with ranged weapons. A T-Rex has no ranged options. If you set up some archers out of reach, now the T-Rex won't work.

Don't get me wrong, the T-Rex is a powerful tool, but only in melee with enough room for a T-Rex to fit.

[StoicLeaf]

It's not getting "butthurt" to recognize when the DM is overreacting and going out of his way to be a ****, like many of the suggestions upthread entail.

Talking to them like they're all reasonable facsimiles of adults or the better class of teenager is infinitely preferable to petty behavior that begets petty behavior.

It has nothing to do with overreacting or petty behaviour and if you interpret it as such then trying to talk to you like an adult isn't going to go anywhere.
Players opt for strategy A. Strategy A proves to be very effective. The world and anyone else desiring to challenge the players will have to make plans to counter strategy A.
Strategy A countered (with magic missiles. I wouldn't call that elaborate or "going out of the way"). Players will now have to come up with something new.

By butthurt I meant the sort of childish player who basks in their own self-righteousness and now that their "great idea" has been shut down it's time to throw a hissy fit because how dare the DM make me feel less cool and important.

I don't think this a topic worth an out of game discussion. I'd perhaps inform them that it wasn't going to work anymore (for a variety of reasons) before letting them run into danger.
But once again, the OP knows best which idea will lead to success. I definitely want to know how this turns out!

[Azgeroth]

if i might,

the problem seems to be, you have okayed a strategy, to later find it is ruining the game (at least for you)

options,

talk to the player(s) voice your concerns, give them options with reasons.

- your walking the encounters, so im going to have seriously up the difficulty to keep pace, be warned.

-your using the same tactic, and gaining notoriety, if you continue, which you can, be aware your going to have encounters built specifically to counter that tactic, because your foe's are intelligent.

-your abuse of my fiat has forced me to ret-con that decision, im sorry, but from now on i decide the summons.

-the tactics your using are awesome, but you are not RP'ing the T-rex's correctly, in short, meta gaming. here is how T-Rex's should be played, im going to police this more closely.

other options

teach them the hard way,

do one of multiples of the above without discussion.. not cool, but up to you.

tactics!

-as mentioned, put them in buildings/dungeons where a T-Rex simply will not fit.

-as mentioned, make the terrain as such a T-Rex is a liability, not a boon.

-have the area warded against conjuration magic (no summons, no teleports)

-give them an encounter against pixies, who track the party down for constantly summoning them into fights they have no stock in, and then the polymorph each other into T-Rex's

-make every encounter in the open (where the tactic can work) so easy its a waste of spell slots.


IMHO

talk to them, explain whats going on, give fair warning of consequences of continuing, DO NOT outlaw the tactic wholesale.

[Citan]

if i might,

the problem seems to be, you have okayed a strategy, to later find it is ruining the game (at least for you)

options,

talk to the player(s) voice your concerns, give them options with reasons.

- your walking the encounters, so im going to have seriously up the difficulty to keep pace, be warned.

-your using the same tactic, and gaining notoriety, if you continue, which you can, be aware your going to have encounters built specifically to counter that tactic, because your foe's are intelligent.

-your abuse of my fiat has forced me to ret-con that decision, im sorry, but from now on i decide the summons.

-the tactics your using are awesome, but you are not RP'ing the T-rex's correctly, in short, meta gaming. here is how T-Rex's should be played, im going to police this more closely.

Seconding this. Whatever you choose to do in the end, it's better to inform the players about beforehand, and help you choose the best method. After that, whatever everyone as a whole prefer...

Although the bolded one feels the most natural to me:
a) It allows you to keep the same line as before ("I let you choose summons, even Pixies"), so you avoid any breach of trust on players part by suddenly changing rules (even if your decision would be legitimate, that is still a fact).

b) It is totally intuitive for players to understand (at least if they want to play a roleplaying game and not a video game) so it may even give them some emergent ideas (either thinking about new tactics or ways to safeguard this one, or devising ways to hide their true identity while wreaking havoc, or even -for evil players- strategizing fights to ensure nobody survives to tell things about them elsewhere).

c) And it also gives you some ideas to dig into for deciding how the world evolves during downtime...
- The players plan to use the T-REX tactic to waste a bandit's hideout lair, that was part of a bigger faction? Make some of them try to flee when things start going hairy, warning players about it: either they let them flee and can expect counter-measures later, or switch priorities to catch them first.
- The infamous group has been tasked with putting a Wizard away? Wizard will certainly have ways to spy them and get how they work so he will prepare adequate spells to deal with it: Magic Missile, Levitate, Enlarge -for closed areas-, Phantasmal Force (good luck breaking THAT), Slow, etc... Or maybe he will hire guys, or lay traps. Give several chances for players to learn about this (rumors, allies spying, capturing a hireling, etc) and ask them how they want to react to this during their own downtime: it may be "let's rush right now", "let's hire guys ourselves", "devise another tactic", "prepare a set up and try to lure Wizard into it", whatever)...
So Wizard will be more or less prepared when the confrontation happens for real.

---
With that said, to guys basically saying that a DM would automatically be an ass for debunking pixies with direct tactics such as Magic Missile or focusing attacks on the Druid etc... This feels like a powergamer's childish defensive reaction. When players are level 5+, it's totally expectable to meet foes with a minimum smartness and magic.

Warning them beforehand that you will up the game is a courtesy to be sure to avoid no hard feelings, so recommended in case those players are newcomers or a bit sensitive about how their gaming reflect their real-life value (which is inept but hey, it can happen to everyone at times). Or if there would really be no in-world reason to have intelligent / magically adept creatures.

But in any credible, evolving world in a tightly or loosely 5E-based setting, these "organic reactions" to disable a dangerous, repeated tactic would happen soon or late (and rather sooner than later). Especially since they trample everything so they would get infamous quick.
If I was playing with experienced gamers, I probably wouldn't even bother with any warning unless I know some of them are currently in a specific mindstate that would make them get hurt from this. Experienced gamers perfectly know when they are pushing it too hard imx.

[pwykersotz]

I like this fix. Since you already gave the player the ability to summon pixies, he'll notice if he stops summoning pixies all of the sudden. What I would do is set up encounters in places where a T-Rex won't work at well. For example, T-Rex's do not have darkvision. So if you attack them at night with beings who can see in the dark, the T-Rex will have disadvantage on all their attacks. Or force them into areas smaller then a 15 ft. cube, now there isn't enough room for a single T-Rex. Or attack with ranged weapons. A T-Rex has no ranged options. If you set up some archers out of reach, now the T-Rex won't work.

Don't get me wrong, the T-Rex is a powerful tool, but only in melee with enough room for a T-Rex to fit.

This was suggested on the 3.5 forums as a way to fix encounter balance issues.

There is a reason that despite my love of 3.5, I have fled to 5e. This is almost entirely that reason. To the best of my ability to understand my fellow GM's over the internet, this is exactly the kind of fix that goes over poorly. Having to plan around the party to this degree is frustrating, time consuming, and leads to GM burnout. At least for me it did.

In short, it's one thing to have the party be strong in an area and to use their special skills. It's another entirely when they become unstoppable in that area. The GM should not have to write his campaign around mechanical abilities to that degree.

[Throne12]

We're in the rules does it say the DM choose the creatures summon?

[Abakus]

Another option would be to find an ingame reason why the trick would no longer work, instead of starting an arms race by countering it directly.

After each summon, the pixies start to complain more and more, not wanting to do boring work for mortals (always the same routine of summoning -> polymorph). They might even start to vary the effect of their spells while still following the letter (polymorphing a part of the party in baby T-Rexes or even eggs). This way they still get some benefit for their spell, but are warned to not abuse it.

Should the party not get these hints, the Mother Pixie might come along during the next summons and send the players a quest or two, if they wish to stay on her good side (a time during which they have no access to any pixies from summoning).

[Byke]

This argument come up many times. Nowhere does it state in the spell that you need to know the creature. But I will stay away from RAW and just talk about the game and actually having fun. If everyone including the DM is having fun that's all that matters. Some of the most memorable encounters in my game where with polymorph. My players still talk about that time when they polied into a giant ape and fought a treant or the time when the turned into a T-Rex and the Warlock rode his back shooting lasers.

There are many ways of getting around polymorph.

1) Concentration - hit the caster and he will eventually fail his check
2) Smarter enemies. The poly trick may work on the first or second encounter, but enemies will learn and start using tactic. Like fighting in small corridors. prepping the battle field with trap ect..ect..
3) if you player have access to poly then why can't the enemies have access to fly/dispel/counterspell ect..ect...or hey why can't they poly? Don't use this every encounter but in the ones that matter.
4) Build tougher encounters. (Or use waves of enemies who learn from the previous wave)

As a DM you need to understand the limits of your players and challenge them. You should not penalize you players for not being able to deal with a spell.

For newer DMs the game is easier to manged sub 6th level. But once you start getting into higher levels it becomes a lot more difficult and you need to learn and adapt to your players creativity or you and your players who will not have fun.

Edit as for the pixie thing - many work around as well.

[JPicasso]

Who says every pixie has polymorph?

[Byke]

Having to plan around the party to this degree is frustrating, time consuming, and leads to GM burnout. At least for me it did.

In short, it's one thing to have the party be strong in an area and to use their special skills. It's another entirely when they become unstoppable in that area. The GM should not have to write his campaign around mechanical abilities to that degree.

As a DM, I feel that it's my job to bring forward creative and interesting encounters that the players need to complete. If they are solving every encounter with summoning pixies and polymorph, then I'm not being creative enough. Yes it alot of work (sometimes) but for me that is part of the fun of being a DM, thinking up challenges that cannot always be solve the same way.

[Citan]

As a DM, I feel that it's my job to bring forward creative and interesting encounters that the players need to complete. If they are solving every encounter with summoning pixies and polymorph, then I'm not being creative enough. Yes it alot of work (sometimes) but for me that is part of the fun of being a DM, thinking up challenges that cannot always be solve the same way.
I agree with this. The Pixie > T-Rex is not even that creative either, it's basically substituting a set of abilities by another.
With the whole party like that, I'd even argue that it makes them easier to manage once you start targeting the weaknesses of that tactic (like very bad mental stats or huge size as has been illustrated by others).
T-Rex is "just" a huge meat bag that is good at running and biting.
It makes them much more predictible than if each player tried to actually use all his potential, especially casters with all their nasty control tricks.

[Twizzly513]

If it were me I would punish them for abusing the rules, but not in any out of game way, or even an obvious in game one. Put them against an encounter with some archers on a ledge. They have to either shoot/cast back or find a way to close the distance. T-rexes can do neither. Pit them against some intelligent beings who understand what's happening and have them target the pixies. I'd also like to share a story which I think can apply in some way.

So there was this DM I read about online, and he was doing a game at a convention. One player rolls up to the scene with his lowest level about 3 above the rest of the party. Long story short, he got in anyway. (I believe it was some level 5s and the 8) Throughout the dungeon, he would demolish monsters and overshadow the rest of the party. The DM got tired of it, and put a mysterious doorway. One player (not the 8) opens door. "[player name] opens the door, screams, and slams it shut." The level 8 immediately runs through the door being cocky, and falls into an extradimensional portal. He dies.

The real moral of the story isn't super big on what's happening here, but the point is that if your characters think they can solve all their problems by turning themselves into a bunch of T-rexes, give them a reason otherwise. Archers and such might only work as a gimmick once or twice, but you can also do things like have them fight in enclosed spaces (forest, perhaps) where movement becomes difficult if you're bigger than medium sized. It may also be a little cheap, but if they come across a spellcaster, Counterspell is there for you. Not sure what spell level Conjure Woodland Beings is off the top of my head, though. You could also give them more encounters that are more stealth-based. For instance, they could try and fight their way into the orc/giant/goblin/generally-angry-humanoid-with-exaggerated-features war camp as some T-rexes, or they could try a more subtle approach.

In conclusion: Punish them for using a flaw in the rules, reward them for being creative.

[Sigreid]

You don't really need to stop them from ever doing it again. IMO you just need to make it naturally apparent that even when it's a good trick, being a one trick pony has problems.

[Tanarii]

All this building encounters around 8 pixies stuff seems awfully complicated to just adjudicating the spell. Tell the player something like '8 pixies is unbalanced in my judgement, you can get two max. Pick 6 of something else.'

It's not changing RAW (which doesn't specify player picks), it's RAI (see Sage Advice), and it's a ruling for the sake of your game.

I would recommend telling them outside of a game session if you have the kind of players that are going to argue with you.

[Rhedyn]

We're in the rules does it say the DM choose the creatures summon?
The rules don't but the devs did because they are bad at their jobs.

The root of the problem is that polymorph is poorly designed and that throws off the CR calculation.

[tieren]

Polymorph doesn't let you keep your brain the way wildshape does.

T-rex can't concentrate on spells. If pixie polymorphs druid, conjure woodland beings ends and so does their polymorphs.

[Unoriginal]

Polymorph doesn't let you keep your brain the way wildshape does.

T-rex can't concentrate on spells. If pixie polymorphs druid, conjure woodland beings ends and so does their polymorphs.

Indeed.

It seems I've misunderstood OP, I thought the Druid stayed untransformed.

[Biggstick]

Polymorph doesn't let you keep your brain the way wildshape does.

T-rex can't concentrate on spells. If pixie polymorphs druid, conjure woodland beings ends and so does their polymorphs.

That would make the Transmutation Wizard's level 10 ability pretty worthless then.

Shapechanger. At 10th level, you add the Polymorph spell to your spellbook, if it is not there already. You can cast Polymorph without expending a spell slot. When you do so, you can target only yourself and transform into a beast whose challenge rating is 1 or lower. Once you cast Polymorph in this way, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest, though you can still cast it normally using an available spell slot.

You can still concentrate on spells while you're Polymorphed.

[Temperjoke]

To be honest, I don't think that it's the whole pixies/T-Rex thing that's the real problem here. This player is looking for a way to trivialize any combat situation. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does make things boring. And if it wasn't via this method, then it would have been some other method. You need to have a conversation with the player, and explain that you're not trying to be a jerk, but it's getting boring with them doing the same thing, and you are contemplating ways that will counter it that the player probably would like less.

If you can't have this sort of conversation with your players, then why are you playing with them?

[Unoriginal]

The Shapechange feature allows you to self-Polymorph and maintain it, but it seems it's an instance of "specific trumps general".

Polymorph says: "The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

A beast has no spellcasting capacity, ergo a spellcaster that get polymorphed cannot cast or maintain a spell.

[tieren]

The Shapechange feature allows you to self-Polymorph and maintain it, but it seems it's an instance of "specific trumps general".

Polymorph says: "The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

A beast has no spellcasting capacity, ergo a spellcaster that get polymorphed cannot cast or maintain a spell.

Indeed, if I polymorph the enemy caster into a snail I would expect him to break concentration on any spells he was holding.

[jaappleton]

You're about to get pissed when you find out that there's a new Titanosaurus.

Yes. Titanosaurus.

CR7
AC 17
HP 201
Gargantuan size
+13 to hit, 45 damage

And it's AL legal. Part of the Guild Artisans stuff.

Oh, and it has Legendary Actions. :smalltongue:

[Biggstick]

The Shapechange feature allows you to self-Polymorph and maintain it, but it seems it's an instance of "specific trumps general".

Polymorph says: "The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

A beast has no spellcasting capacity, ergo a spellcaster that get polymorphed cannot cast or maintain a spell.


Indeed, if I polymorph the enemy caster into a snail I would expect him to break concentration on any spells he was holding.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/22/polymorph-concentration/

It would appear you can maintain concentration on a spell if you've cast it before being Polymorphed. This would in my mind include when you Polymorph yourself.

[SharkForce]

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/10/22/polymorph-concentration/

It would appear you can maintain concentration on a spell if you've cast it before being Polymorphed. This would in my mind include when you Polymorph yourself.

as noted, the transmuter literally gets a polymorph ability that can only be used on themselves. there's no question of it. it doesn't even remotely suggest in the rules anywhere that you can't concentrate when you're polymorphed. nothing ever remotely states that concentration is an ability that only a person with the spellcasting feature has. anyone can concentrate.

but seriously, doing a ton of ridiculous stuff because something is broken is silly. pixies are the wrong CR. polymorph is overpowered. you should still talk to the players about fixing those things (to explain *why* you're fixing those things), but you should also fix those things, because they shouldn't be in the game, and no, you shouldn't have to give the players input on it. tweaking the game rules as needed is part of the DM's job. they already agreed to you doing this kind of thing when they agreed on you being the DM.

[StorytellerHero]

PIXIE #1: What's a "T-Rex"?

PIXIE #2: Oooooh I know! It's a type of underwear that the big people use to cover their crotchies.

PIXIE #3: Shaped like a "T"!

PIXIE #4: Okay then! Everyone turns into T-Rexes! Underwear for all!

PIXIES #1-3: YAAAAAAAAAAY!

DRUID: No, wait! W-

[imanidiot]

So, I have this Druid in my game. And he chose polymorph for one of his fourth level spells, which is fine. But the thing is, his favorite thing to do now is to transform either himself or one of the other party members into a T-Rex because of their hit points and high damage attacks. At first it was funny, and then it got sort of annoying, but now I think he found a cheat code that is really ridiculous.

He casts conjure woodland beings and summons a whole bunch of pixies, and then he commands them to use their own polymorph spell on all of the party members so EVERYONE is a T-Rex...

And I can't find a rule or anything that would disallow that, but he's using it like every encounter. So now I just have a pack of T-Rexs as a party.

What do I do as a DM?

Make them fight a druid that does the same thing. If they're doing it every battle it's obviously a common tactic in your world among those who are capable of it.

[jaappleton]

I'm sure word has spread of the parties tactics if they're doing it EVERY battle. Its not every day that 5 T-Rex's are seen in your world, is it?

Surely, enemies would begin using Counterspell and Dispel Magic?

[Zanthy1]

RAW it is legit. Remember you as the DM decide what woodland creatures show up. If pixies are summoned however, simply have them taken out via magic missile or something. They are low HP and magic missile doesn't miss.

[Unoriginal]

I'm sure word has spread of the parties tactics if they're doing it EVERY battle. Its not every day that 5 T-Rex's are seen in your world, is it?

Surely, enemies would begin using Counterspell and Dispel Magic?

Don't even need counter-magic. Even enemies who are at borderline Stone Age level just have to set up a few traps and ambushes, like pits with sharpened sticks at the bottom, huge logs tied to ropes up in trees, or ropes to get in the dino's legs and making them fall.

And that's saying nothing of more technologically advanced people. Bear traps, harpoons with chains, poisoned or fire arrows, etc.

And then there are the war engines, for added punch.

[pwykersotz]

As a DM, I feel that it's my job to bring forward creative and interesting encounters that the players need to complete. If they are solving every encounter with summoning pixies and polymorph, then I'm not being creative enough. Yes it alot of work (sometimes) but for me that is part of the fun of being a DM, thinking up challenges that cannot always be solve the same way.

You and I just disagree on what constitutes creative and interesting then. Compensating for the party isn't creative or interesting to me. It's rather boring.

[Malifice]

We're in the rules does it say the DM choose the creatures summon?

Where in the rules does it say the Player chooses?

The DM has final say on what creatures get summoned (like he does with everything).

Confirmed as RAI by Crawford.

The DM also plays those creatures (like he plays every other creature in the world that isnt a PC). They're NPCs.

IMG summon Pixies at your own risk. They're mischevious little buggers, who love to troll people and who are known interpret orders rather... liberally.

[Malifice]

PIXIE #1: What's a "T-Rex"?

PIXIE #2: Oooooh I know! It's a type of underwear that the big people use to cover their crotchies.

PIXIE #3: Shaped like a "T"!

PIXIE #4: Okay then! Everyone turns into T-Rexes! Underwear for all!

PIXIES #1-3: YAAAAAAAAAAY!

DRUID: No, wait! W-

This.

Or [not really knowing or understanding what T-Rex's are] they turn you into one of a million different things, or things with one of a million different abilities. Or [even knowing what they are] decide to interpret your orders to mean something wildly different.

Also; dont forget to ensure that when polymorphed it's done for maximum trolling/ laughter value by the pixies.

The [Dwarf fighter/ T-Rex] keeps his beard. The [wizard/ T-Rex] heeps his pointy hat. Etc.

[Saiga]

The spell itself doesn't say "the DM chooses the creature" but it also doesn't say "choose the exact creature". It does say the DM has the creature statistics.

I think it's a pretty unclearly worded spell, but if you compare it to the wording of other spells and how exact they are in what choices the PC makes, the RAI makes sense.

[SharkForce]

The spell itself doesn't say "the DM chooses the creature" but it also doesn't say "choose the exact creature". It does say the DM has the creature statistics.

I think it's a pretty unclearly worded spell, but if you compare it to the wording of other spells and how exact they are in what choices the PC makes, the RAI makes sense.

the RAI doesn't make any more sense than the complete opposite way of interpreting it though. there is nothing that says either way, RAW. it's reasonable for any person to read it an interpret it either way, though i for one find it odd that the DM would be in charge of telling me what i get when i use my ability.

and as a DM, i am juggling enough balls that i don't need or want to juggle anyone else's at the same time. just fix the actual problems, and the players can choose whatever they want again. you want pixies? sure thing! you get two of them. and their polymorph has a max CR of 1. but i won't troll you with them, because they're there to be helpful and follow your orders, and you get to pick what you want so that it will actually be useful for what you want to do.

when you fix the problems, the symptoms go away on their own. pixie spam is a symptom, not the problem.

[Tanarii]

The spell itself doesn't say "the DM chooses the creature" but it also doesn't say "choose the exact creature". It does say the DM has the creature statistics.Exactly. Raw doesn't say. So asking where it says the DM chooses, implying that therefore the player chooses, isn't helpful.

Nor is it helpful to claim that RAW the DM chooses. The DM choosing, the player choosing, the DM & player collaborating, the DM banning some creatures as not appropriate to his campaign world, the DM setting broad limits but the player otherwise choosing, etc are all RAW.

JC provided his version of RAI. IMO it's not a very helpful one. Like Tides of Chaos (which is explicit the DM chooses), I think it should be the player chooses but needs to be aware there will be more DM oversight and/or rulings than most other mechanical parts of the game. Or Hiding for that matter (another ongoing thread).

I mean, JC could have said all this just as easily. I'm sure some people would call it waffling and not mechanical enough, or want to know if it's Player's *right* or DMs *right* to choose. As opposed something in between.


I think it's a pretty unclearly worded spell, but if you compare it to the wording of other spells and how exact they are in what choices the PC makes, the RAI makes sense.I initially assumed the unclear wording & RAI was so that it would work with newly introduced creatures from splats and/or creatures appropriate to a DM's campaign world. Including homebrew.

[Finback]

You're about to get pissed when you find out that there's a new Titanosaurus.

Yes. Titanosaurus.



Yeah, but people won't choose a sauropod over a theropod. Even if the sauropod could trample an entire party, or tail-whip the wizard into the next country.

[Rhedyn]

You can tell that rules here have problems given how combative and antagonistic all the advice OP is getting.

Maybe 5e is just a bad game and the real solution is to play pathfinder?

[Strangways]

There’s no question that the DM, not the player, decides which specific creature shows up in response to the summons:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/09/conjure-woodland-beings-pixies-and-giant-apes/

[jaappleton]

You can tell that rules here have problems given how combative and antagonistic all the advice OP is getting.

Maybe 5e is just a bad game and the real solution is to play pathfinder?

Your avatar is the same as Deleted, but your username isn't.

-Fry squinting .jpg-

[Unoriginal]

You can tell that rules here have problems given how combative and antagonistic all the advice OP is getting.

Maybe 5e is just a bad game and the real solution is to play pathfinder?

Whoa, this got to be the most spiteful post I've read on the 5e forum.

Why do you keep posting here instead of playing/posting about Pathfinder? Your loath for 5e is well-known.


Your avatar is the same as Deleted, but your username isn't.

-Fry squinting .jpg-

There are several people on this forum with Beholder avatar pics who like to pretend 5e is a badwrong game that doesn't work and that shouldn't be played because it's badwrong.

Especially hilarious/sad when they try to imply 5e is a broken mess while praising Pathfinder. Or when they pretend things that are common to RPGs/DMing styles are 5e's fault.

Dunno why they keep posting here, though.

[Nu]

Whoa, this got to be the most spiteful post I've read on the 5e forum.

Why do you keep posting here instead of playing/posting about Pathfinder? Your loath for 5e is well-known.

There are several people on this forum with Beholder avatar pics who like to pretend 5e is a badwrong game that doesn't work and that shouldn't be played because it's badwrong.

Especially hilarious/sad when they try to imply 5e is a broken mess while praising Pathfinder. Or when they pretend things that are common to RPGs/DMing styles are 5e's fault.

Dunno why they keep posting here, though.

5th edition may be poorly designed, but Pathfinder is far worse in that regard.

I do tend to agree that the OP appear to be getting a lot of antagonistic advice that furthers the "DM versus the players" mindset, though. As if it's your job as the DM to intentionally foil any attempt by the players to make their characters feel powerful (the desire to feel powerful and useful is a perfectly legitimate and reasonable approach to a tabletop RPG, by the way). I'll second everyone who says to talk it out with the player before doing anything rash. It's not the DM's job to try and "outsmart" the players by creating a bunch of situations where their tactics aren't viable. It is the DM's job to work with their players to create interesting and fun challenges for them.

[Rhedyn]

Your avatar is the same as Deleted, but your username isn't.

-Fry squinting .jpg- My salt is my own thank you very much.

I do find 5e more trouble to deal with than PF and less functional than PF. The core math of 5e just doesn't hold up as well and puts far too much of the onus of a good time on the DM. Once you are as rules heavy as 5e, you have a duty to do some work for the DM.

Polymorph itself is just the start of your game breaking problems in 5e and every answer is either blatant houserules or just being an ass of a DM.

In PF, you can just ban problematic options and there is still 5 other ways to make that character and they did a lot better than 3.5 in keeping the options pretty tame.

"Oh but pf breaks down at high levels" it can but 5e breaks by level 7, which I don't even consider the game started until that level.

[Shining Wrath]

Almost all the high level spells of pixies require concentration, including polymorph.
The pixies have invisibility as per the spell, which requires concentration.
A pixie that has polymorphed someone has to remain visible while doing so. This trick, then, works only when the druid can summon the pixies away from combat, because otherwise those pixies are 1 HP creatures within range of spells and arrows.

Also, if you want to go RAW but jerk DM: the summoned creatures obey the summoner's verbal commands. From SRD:


Conjure Woodland Beings
4th-level conjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (one holly berry per creature
summoned)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour
You summon fey creatures that appear in unoccupied spaces that you can see within range. Choose one of the following options for what appears:

One fey creature of challenge rating 2 or lower
Two fey creatures of challenge rating 1 or lower
Four fey creatures of challenge rating 1/2 or lower
Eight fey creatures of challenge rating 1/4 or lower
A summoned creature disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends. The summoned creatures are friendly to you and your companions. Roll initiative for the summoned creatures as a group, which has its own turns. They obey any verbal commands that you issue to them (no action required by you). If you don’t issue any commands to them, they defend themselves from hostile creatures, but otherwise take no actions. The GM has the creatures’ statistics.

At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using certain higher-level spell slots, you choose one of the summoning options above, and more creatures appear: twice as many with a 6th-level slot, three times as many with a 8th-level slot.

Note the bolded text. But if you look at the pixie (not available in SRD, sorry), you see that pixies only speak Sylvan. So ...
If the druid does not speak Sylvan, the druid cannot issue a verbal command to the pixies. Pantomime, charades, sign language, elven, and so on, do not work. Those who live by RAW, can die by RAW. No mention is made in the spell description of the creatures gaining the ability to understand your language.

Before you start yelling, note that I did say it was a jerk move. So it's not something for a DM to simply do with no warning. It's a thing to bring up if the druid starts getting munchkiny when you discuss the problem.

EDIT: Rheydn is now on my ignore list. Thinking 3.75 is better than 5 is a valid opinion. Proclaiming that it's no contest and obvious, on a 5e board, is simply obnoxious.

[Contrast]

The Shapechange feature allows you to self-Polymorph and maintain it, but it seems it's an instance of "specific trumps general".

Polymorph says: "The target's game Statistics, including mental Ability Scores, are replaced by the Statistics of the chosen beast. It retains its alignment and personality."

A beast has no spellcasting capacity, ergo a spellcaster that get polymorphed cannot cast or maintain a spell.

Being unable to cast spells isn't listed as one of the things that automatically breaks concentration so its really up to the DM what counts are disruptive enough to trigger it. I would consider a DM quite harsh if they even forced a concentration check for a friendly polymorph, let alone an instant failure.

I would also point out to everyone saying 'kill the pixies' that there's no range on maintaining concentration so there's really no need for the pixies to be anywhere near the combat. Even if its mid combat if the pixies split up so they can't just be AoEd, I'd take the action economy of forcing the enemy to kill them individually plus a turn or two of TRexing before they got them all. That's even assuming the opponents know whats going on (which admittedly news would spread fast if the party is doing this a lot). This is a pretty well known foul up in balance and as others have said is best dealt with by asking your players to not do it.

[Rhedyn]

@Shining Wrath

I wouldn't say it's obvious. You only learn that 5e is bad when you reach mid levels and try to pace your narrative outside of "6 encounters and 2 short rest per long rest".

[Knaight]

"Oh but pf breaks down at high levels" it can but 5e breaks by level 7, which I don't even consider the game started until that level.

I wouldn't call either a bad game, but I'd call PF frustrating to run for people who don't favor really rules heavy games - and that frustration starts at level one and just increases. There's a reason it has the Mathfinder nickname. Meanwhile 5e is generally not frustrating to run for many of this same group of people.

Personally I don't like either, but there's a lot I respect about the designs of both, as well as a lot of design decisions in both that I'd consider outright mistakes (given the rest of the designs, neither has any mechanics so awful that they should never be used anywhere).

[Byke]

You and I just disagree on what constitutes creative and interesting then. Compensating for the party isn't creative or interesting to me. It's rather boring.

So we disagree. But I am interested in how you are designing encounters if you are not taking into consideration the parties abilities.

[Malifice]

You only learn that 5e is bad when you reach mid levels and try to pace your narrative outside of "6 encounters and 2 short rest per long rest".

It also breaks down when you use a D4 instead of a D20. It becomes really bad when you do that.

What's your point?

Considering a long rest is an arbitrarily long period of time (8 hours by default, but can be up to week if you so desire) and short rest are equally arbitrary (the game recommends anywhere from five minutes to an entire day, with one hour being the default) if the game is mechanically not matching with your narrative it's not the games fault, it's the DMs.

Also; take it to the Pathfinder board.

[Rhedyn]

If a DM wants to do a dungeon one day and a single encounter day the next without arbitrarily changing what a long rest is then they are hosed.

It's also key to this thread's problem. 4th level spells should only break some of your encounters each day. But these kinds of exploits are more prominent when the DM doesn't run a slog of encounters reach short rest.

[Sigreid]

If a DM wants to do a dungeon one day and a single encounter day the next without arbitrarily changing what a long rest is then they are hosed.

It's also key to this thread's problem. 4th level spells should only break some of your encounters each day. But these kinds of exploits are more prominent when the DM doesn't run a slog of encounters reach short rest.

It really doesn't matter how many encounters per day as long as your players can never be sure and thus will always try to use resources efficiently and not think "well, this is the only encounter we will have today so I'm going Super Nova!".

[Nu]

If a DM wants to do a dungeon one day and a single encounter day the next without arbitrarily changing what a long rest is then they are hosed.

I don't think any modern edition of DnD solves this issue, to be fair. Any edition where one class has daily powers and another does not will run into class-balance issues when the assumed adventuring day is bypassed. Lots of people just ignore this in the case of 3.x/PF, but it's still an issue there to be sure.

[pwykersotz]

So we disagree. But I am interested in how you are designing encounters if you are not taking into consideration the parties abilities.

I don't ignore them, I just don't compensate for them by targeting them. For example, if I know the Gnome Bard dumped strength, I don't single him out as a target for grapples. I might put a grappling monster in the game though, and if the chips fall a certain way, it might end up happening. My belief is that versatile encounter design allows all the players to shine or struggle pretty evenly. I create a large variety of situations and let the party tackle it how they want. But if a mechanic or ability starts to make itself known that dominates a wide swath of those versatile encounters, then it's clear the system is not performing. If encounters that can't be dealt with via a certain method are the exception instead of the rule, it's probably not best for the game. T-Rex polymorph fits that scenario. As does Wish Simulacrum. As do a small handful of other exploits. These are the vast minority though. They become obvious when they are shown, and most of the time they can be dealt with by cutting down on my typically generous reading of the rules.

[Dudu]

That's... a pretty old trick. Conjure Woodland Beings is one of the most broken spells, as well as polymorph. The combo itself is extremely over the top.

I'm joining the crowd here. I the caster must be familiar. Same applies for wildshaping.
If the same druid conjured bears and wolves, or is an artic druid, for example, I would simply rule out t-rexes.

Also, conjure X is supposed to be conjure random allies. It's not a universal rule, and many tables play with the players chosing the summons, but balance-wise it's better that way. If he gets pixies, the pixies are supposed to know what a T-rex is, and unless they are really hardcore pixies, they likely won't.

If you want a more neutral aproach. Say the druid needs a nature check to see if he knows what a T-rex is. Being an extinct creature, it would take a very steep DC to know a T-rex enough to polymorph someone into it. And not merely knowing about "this big lizard called T-rex". He needs a thorough knowledge. The DC shouldn't be lower than 25.

Monster Manual is meta knowledge. Character knowledge is a whole other thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

1. I lost my reply, so I'll boil this down to a few points.

A. At first, there is no way any other enemy party knows about this since this exploit seems to have made each encounter a slaughter.

B. You need to structure an encounter where someone flees before being consumed by Team TRex.

C. That NPC starts spreading a rumor about a band of werelizards who transform into giant lizards and slaughter/consume anyone in their path. Make sure this rumor spreads at a reasonable rate. Initially, the party has no idea the rumor is spreading.

D. The party may hear in a tavern about the dreaded werelizard gang ...

E. For darned sure, another group of NPC adventurers (of just the right level) hears of this band of marauders and in sheer murder hobo fashion, head out hunting them in search of XP ad hides for new boots, belts, and purses. :smallbiggrin:

2. On the pixie side

A. Over time, some of the same pixies have been summoned. This druid is boring. Always wants to do the same thing.
B. They complain to the queen of faerie, or the pixie queen, or whatever.
C. One day, four pixies and four blink dogs show up for the summons; the pixie leader presents a hand written note to the druid that he's boring, and the word is getting out such that most pixies are loathing the summons by this darned boring druid; her majesty the queen has been sympathetic to their complaints. (So has the Arch Fey, if need be).
D. The next time, 1 pixie and seven blink dogs. This time, the letter is written in big letters: boring doesn't cut it.
E. If the player doesn't get the message, you all seriously need to have an out of character talk.

One of the pervious answers said "They only speak Sylvan"
If that's the case, and the druid does not speak Sylvan, a lovely response to the Druid, upon arrival, is no parlo la lingua common no molto bene can make for a hilarious situation. (That's poor Italian for "I don't speak the common tongue very well" ...) enjoy. :smallbiggrin: Try to have some fun with this. Pick a language, but use that as leverage for fun role play across the language barrier.

There's also the tactical matter of shatter or fireball going off when the pixies are initiall summoned. They have few HP. Dead pixies don't cast polymorph. Can't concentrate either, when dead.

3. Lastly: pixies, to survive a battle usually need to be invisible. As they are chaotic, a random determination based on the Druid's Charisma for a pixie choosing to go invisible to preserve itself might be a way around this.
Not all of them will do this at once, but some might during a given round. This is a pre 5e methodology at work here, a "rules lawyers are the enemy" approach, but using a random roll makes it fit pixies. As I said, the pixies are chaotic, so their reactions will be variable, almost random ... and d20 gives some RNG.

4. Last but not least: T Rex is powerful but stupid.

Whomever polymorphs into a TRex now has an Int of 2. Hold the other players to that; no talking during the fight, but growling is fantastic! Reward awesome role play of 2 Int beast with an Inspiration point! (It's in the DMG!)

[Citan]

1. I lost my reply, so I'll boil this down to a few points.

A. At first, there is no way any other enemy party knows about this since this exploit seems to have made each encounter a slaughter.

B. You need to structure an encounter where someone flees before being consumed by Team TRex.

C. That NPC starts spreading a rumor about a band of werelizards who transform into giant lizards and slaughter/consume anyone in their path. Make sure this rumor spreads at a reasonable rate. Initially, the party has no idea the rumor is spreading.

D. The party may hear in a tavern about the dreaded werelizard gang ...

E. For darned sure, another group of NPC adventurers (of just the right level) hears of this band of marauders and in sheer murder hobo fashion, head out hunting them in search of XP ad hides for new boots, belts, and purses. :smallbiggrin:

2. On the pixie side

A. Over time, some of the same pixies have been summoned. This druid is boring. Always wants to do the same thing.
B. They complain to the queen of faerie, or the pixie queen, or whatever.
C. One day, four pixies and four blink dogs show up for the summons; the pixie leader presents a hand written note to the druid that he's boring, and the word is getting out such that most pixies are loathing the summons by this darned boring druid; her majesty the queen has been sympathetic to their complaints. (So has the Arch Fey, if need be).
D. The next time, 1 pixie and seven blink dogs. This time, the letter is written in big letters: boring doesn't cut it.
E. If the player doesn't get the message, you all seriously need to have an out of character talk.

One of the pervious answers said "They only speak Sylvan"
If that's the case, and the druid does not speak Sylvan, a lovely response to the Druid, upon arrival, is no parlo la lingua common no molto bene can make for a hilarious situation. (That's poor Italian for "I don't speak the common tongue very well" ...) enjoy. :smallbiggrin: Try to have some fun with this. Pick a language, but use that as leverage for fun role play across the language barrier.

There's also the tactical matter of shatter or fireball going off when the pixies are initiall summoned. They have few HP. Dead pixies don't cast polymorph. Can't concentrate either, when dead.

3. Lastly: pixies, to survive a battle usually need to be invisible. As they are chaotic, a random determination based on the Druid's Charisma for a pixie choosing to go invisible to preserve itself might be a way around this.
Not all of them will do this at once, but some might during a given round. This is a pre 5e methodology at work here, a "rules lawyers are the enemy" approach, but using a random roll makes it fit pixies. As I said, the pixies are chaotic, so their reactions will be variable, almost random ... and d20 gives some RNG.

4. Last but not least: T Rex is powerful but stupid.

Whomever polymorphs into a TRex now has an Int of 2. Hold the other players to that; no talking during the fight, but growling is fantastic! Reward awesome role play of 2 Int beast with an Inspiration point! (It's in the DMG!)
Just cannot go for the night without massively plussing the whole post.

Especially the "growl-only" RP. Excellent idea. :)

[Malifice]

If a DM wants to do a dungeon one day and a single encounter day the next without arbitrarily changing what a long rest is then they are hosed.

They can change it if they want. Plenty of campaigns do just this (gritty realism week long rests in the wilderness and in town, and switching to shorter rests in dungeons).

You're also making a huge mistake about 5E. That EVERY long rest must feature 6 encounters and 2 short rests. It doesnt.

Thats the median. Many long rests can (and should) feature less encounters (and a few will feature more). Many long rests will feature more short rests (and some less).

You might do a meatgrinder one session (a dungeon where there is no chance to rest due to you being pursued etc) that has a series of combat and environmental challenges before you get the chance to rest (and/or your long rest is interrupted and only counts as a short rest).

You might get a different session where you only need to deal with the single encounter before long resting.

Get it yet?


It's also key to this thread's problem. 4th level spells should only break some of your encounters each day. But these kinds of exploits are more prominent when the DM doesn't run a slog of encounters reach short rest.

If your DM is cleaving to the longer 'adventuring day' [may not in fact be a day; could be an entire month if using gritty realism] then your players will naturally conserve resources (like high level spells) in the expectation of more encounters, even on the single encounter days. They catch onto the meta, and roll with it.

Nothing sucks more than blowing your load early, and being stuck with cantrips when it really matters.

Your inability to police the adventuring day isnt my fault, or the systems. Its your own.

[Quoxis]

Cave combat. You can't fit a T-Rex in a narrow cave, especially not a group of them.
Dense forests. Age old oaks close to each other, so that large and larger creatures can hardly move.
Ranged combat. Have a gang of goblins attack the party with arrows from a cliff above them or over a river.

Look at the downsides of being a giant dinosaur and use them against the group from time to time.

[Officer Joy]

There are a lot of similar advice.
But one suggestion I haven't seen is to just lvl the players some. Eventually The Plain fighter will do more damage. Than the T-rex.
They loose all their PC abilities when the become T-rexes.

[Knaight]

I don't think any modern edition of DnD solves this issue, to be fair. Any edition where one class has daily powers and another does not will run into class-balance issues when the assumed adventuring day is bypassed. Lots of people just ignore this in the case of 3.x/PF, but it's still an issue there to be sure.

This isn't a modern edition thing - resource management tied to in game time has been at the heart of D&D since the very beginning. It's one of the major ways that D&D is actually an extremely specialized game, and not the generic fantasy game WotC likes to present it as.

[mephnick]

This isn't a modern edition thing - resource management tied to in game time has been at the heart of D&D since the very beginning. It's one of the major ways that D&D is actually an extremely specialized game, and not the generic fantasy game WotC likes to present itself as.

Yep. The greatest lie ever told in table top gaming is WotC demanding that D&D is a system that can run any kind of fantasy game. The system is entirely based around dungeon delving, wilderness exploration and fighting a bunch of monsters. Sure, you can play a political intrigue, mass warfare or horror mystery game, but the system will offer you no help or will actively fight you every step of the way. If you don't want to raid ancient ruins filled with monsters, pick a different game. Please. Your group will enjoy it more.

[Rhedyn]

Yep. The greatest lie ever told in table top gaming is WotC demanding that D&D is a system that can run any kind of fantasy game. The system is entirely based around dungeon delving, wilderness exploration and fighting a bunch of monsters. Sure, you can play a political intrigue, mass warfare or horror mystery game, but the system will offer you no help or will actively fight you every step of the way. If you don't want to raid ancient ruins filled with monsters, pick a different game. Please. Your group will enjoy it more.
That's my problem with 5e. PF handles all of these to a functional degree or has whole books devoted to that. While being the older system and offering more player options. 5e's only objective utility is that noob players can pick it up easier. (Which has a purpose)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yep. The greatest lie ever told in table top gaming is WotC demanding that D&D is a system that can run any kind of fantasy game. The system is entirely based around dungeon delving, wilderness exploration and fighting a bunch of monsters. Sure, you can play a political intrigue, mass warfare or horror mystery game, but the system will offer you no help or will actively fight you every step of the way. If you don't want to raid ancient ruins filled with monsters, pick a different game. Please. Your group will enjoy it more.

At least in this system, I have seen very little evidence in marketing or books that claims D&D to be well suited for intrigue or mystery games. The PHB is quite clear on what it is designed for:



Dungeons and dragons immerses you in a world of adventure. Explore ancient ruins and deadly dungeons. Battle monsters while searching for legendary treasures. Gain experience and power as you trek across uncharted lands with your companions.

The world needs heroes. Will you answer the call?


Intrigue is buried in a few, isolated paragraphs in the DMG. Earlier editions may have made grandiose claims, but this one is much more grounded.

I agree that D&D is Ill suited for anything but heroic adventures. Thankfully 5e does not claim otherwise.

[Unoriginal]

That's my problem with 5e. PF handles all of these to a functional degree or has whole books devoted to that. While being the older system and offering more player options. 5e's only objective utility is that noob players can pick it up easier. (Which has a purpose)

Oh please, Pathfinder is just as suited as 5e for political intrigues, mass warfare or mysteries. If not less.

[Rhedyn]

Oh please, Pathfinder is just as suited as 5e for political intrigues, mass warfare or mysteries. If not less. Aside from having whole books devoted to each area and a robust system that can handle a variety of encounter pacing, sure I can see your point.

It's not like PF is both easier to DM and has more player options.

You either do 5e's marathon encounter slogs everyday or you're playing wrong.

[Unoriginal]

Aside from having whole books devoted to each area and a robust system that can handle a variety of encounter pacing, sure I can see your point.

Whole books that help with next to nothing in each area they're supposedly dedicated to and a system so "robust" it can effortlessly break itself at early level and that can handle a variety of encounter pacing because encounter pacing doesn't matter thanks to the powerfest the PCs have.


It's not like PF is both easier to DM

Indeed, I'm glad you agree Pathfinder is not easier to DM.



and has more player options.

Oh sure, there are a whole lot more player options. Too bad it's an inflated and unbalanced mess.


You either do 5e's marathon encounter slogs everyday or you're playing wrong.

And others have already told you why this claim is ridiculous, so I'm not going to.


Seriously, dude, why do you come here to do nothing but complain about 5e? If you liked Dark Heresy a lot, would you go to the 3.5 board to tell them why their game is ****?

[Rhedyn]

This is the only forum with the right amount of angst. The PF forums are just too happy now-a-days with their feature rich system.

Now 5e forums! We're just getting over the honeymoon period and people are beginning to see all the problems.

Threads like these are great! Watching people actually advise being a **** DM or propping up Sage Advice as more than ****ty houserules invented by morons.

[Unoriginal]

This is the only forum with the right amount of angst. The PF forums are just too happy now-a-days with their feature rich system.

Now 5e forums! We're just getting over the honeymoon period and people are beginning to see all the problems.

Threads like these are great! Watching people actually advise being a **** DM or propping up Sage Advice as more than ****ty houserules invented by morons.

Ahahahahahahaahaha.

Whoa.

Congratulation, Rhedyn, you just demonstrated why no one should ever listen to you ever again.

I mean, it's refreshing and novel to see someone who admit they're just a petty troll here to spread unhappiness, resentment and being obnoxious on purpose.

[Rhedyn]

here to spread unhappiness, resentment and being obnoxious on purpose.

I can only do that if there is a kernel of truth to what I am saying.

[Unoriginal]

I can only do that if there is a kernel of truth to what I am saying.

Not at all, one does not require any speck of truth to spread unhappiness or resentment, nor do they require it to be obnoxious on purpose.

But again, thanks for admitting that you're a troll.

[StoicLeaf]

Threads like these are great! Watching people actually advise being a **** DM or propping up Sage Advice as more than ****ty houserules invented by morons.

See, no one advised the OP to be a ****.
The majority of all comments were either to play within the constraints of the rules as they are, to implement the rules properly, to discuss it with them out of game or a mix of the afore mentioned strategies.
But what do I know, maybe PF and the atmosphere around it is different. Maybe you open the player's handbook and it's steaks and blowjobs galore!

[Unoriginal]

blowjobs galore!

A poetic way to say it sucks a lot.

[pwykersotz]

This is the only forum with the right amount of angst. The PF forums are just too happy now-a-days with their feature rich system.

Now 5e forums! We're just getting over the honeymoon period and people are beginning to see all the problems.

Threads like these are great! Watching people actually advise being a **** DM or propping up Sage Advice as more than ****ty houserules invented by morons.

Did you post the same thing about the honeymoon period several years back? I remember taking part in a thread that attempted to say the same thing a long time ago. I think it was in response to wish/simulacrum. Or maybe it was someone else. I can't remember. Either way, it's just as wrong now as it was then. I am well versed in both the problems of 3.5, Pathfinder, and 5e. They are my big 3 systems I've played over the last 10 years. 5e is my number one choice after all things are considered.

But putting on my PF fanboy hat for a moment, you do a disservice to the game by ridiculing other systems. The goal is to get people to try it, not polarize people against it. You don't have to demean something that people love for them to love something new. It makes me sad to think that some folks here might not try PF ever because of comments like this.

[Unoriginal]

But putting on my PF fanboy hat for a moment, you do a disservice to the game by ridiculing other systems. The goal is to get people to try it, not polarize people against it. You don't have to demean something that people love for them to love something new. It makes me sad to think that some folks here might not try PF ever because of comments like this.

pwykersotz, he's doing it entirely on purpose. He's trying to piss people off.

[PhoenixPhyre]

On topic, I've run into issues (as a DM) with a druid using Polymorph. Not to change allies into dinosaurs, but the baleful version. This is only a problem because I roll saving throws like crap. Add in a monk who finally (level 14) learned she could use stunning fist, and I just had a two-monster encounter (beefed hydra + beefed arch druid) absolutely destroyed. Druid polymorphed hydra into a beaver, monk ran zoom! across the battlefield, stunned the druid (through foresight) and between her, the fighter, and the rogue they obliterated the druid. Then they went and repeated the trick (minus the polymorph) to the hydra. I think they got a total of one active round each.

But then, that's how that's supposed to work. And I'm not sore about it--other encounters that won't work as well. Let them shine.

[scalyfreak]

pwykersotz, he's doing it entirely on purpose. He's trying to piss people off.

And in the process succeeding in making Pathfinder less appealing to someone who genuinely likes D&D 5e. Meaning, recruiting players for that system isn't his goal, and never was.

Duh. :smalltongue:

[pwykersotz]

pwykersotz, he's doing it entirely on purpose. He's trying to piss people off.

It sure seems that way. But the way I avoid becoming a cynic is to believe that there is at least a part of him that actually cares about the things he spends his effort talking about. I might be barking up the wrong tree, but I want to believe the best of people.

[Rhedyn]

And in the process succeeding in making Pathfinder less appealing to someone who genuinely likes D&D 5e. Meaning, recruiting players for that system isn't his goal, and never was.

Duh. :smalltongue:
Are you insinuating that PF becomes less appealing to you because I like it? Cause nothing I've said paints PF in a bad light. If association makes you dislike things then that is on you.

I have no need to convince people. 5e will convince them for me. Those who will prefer PF will naturally run into problems in 5e.

Like this thread, where the worst ruling in the history of dev feedback in considered an "answer" to this problem. Yeah let's prevent a player from deciding the details of his or her spells AND makes the DM on the fly add more monsters to the encounter. Remove player agency, invalidate competent summoner as something you can play, and make the DM's job harder.

That's some quality rules making. Ignore the problem of the polymorph spell being badly designed and make some* summon spells worse designed (check that ruling again. Mono summon spells, the player picks not the DM. Even though they have the same wording as the multi summon ones). It's a complete mess.

Though once you accept that some parts of the game are just not put together correctly, you can't help but find more and more cracks. 5e can be a fun narrative experience even if it ****s the bed on the whole game part of RPG.

[thereaper]

On topic, the problem with designing encounters to counter the T-Rex tactic is that it sharply limits the types of encounters you can do. Never again can you throw a traditional encounter at the party, because they'll just walk right over it.

So, you're basically going out of your way to make the trick worthless. And if you're going to do that anyway, why not be more direct about it, so that you can design encounters the way you want?

[Unoriginal]

On topic, the problem with designing encounters to counter the T-Rex tactic is that it sharply limits the types of encounters you can do. Never again can you throw a traditional encounter at the party, because they'll just walk right over it.

So, you're basically going out of your way to make the trick worthless. And if you're going to do that anyway, why not be more direct about it, so that you can design encounters the way you want?

Not true.

When the PCs' tactic becomes known, the hostile encounters they run into would be people who think they have a good chance to take on a group of T-Rexes (or at least the magic-users responsible for the dinos), or in a terrain they picked to make the party's tactic not work. Because it's logical.

The only reason the PCs use this method that much is because it is working all the time. Once it stops doing so, they will stop using it all the time, and try other things.

They can still use this tactic later on in situations where they know it'd work , but they'll be aware it won't always be efficient in all situations.

[thereaper]

Except for all the unintelligent monsters out there.

Furthermore, the idea that every single intelligent creature is going to be prepared for the trick probably breaks suspension of disbelief. I mean, what, are we to believe that they've prepared for every single adventurer trick out there? Are we really supposed to believe this group is the first in the setting to figure it out? If they weren't prepared for it before, we can therefore assume that at least some of them won't bother preparing for it at all.

But no matter how you play it, you've effectively shut down the trick by building your encounters in a certain way, thereby limiting certain options. So, again, if you're going to do that anyway, why be indirect about it? If the end result is the same, why not just stop them from using it (using one of the methods described in this thread) so that you have more options for building encounters?

[SharkForce]

yeah, still not sure why everyone is all focused on just changing the entire world to fix the problem. if it's a world-altering strategy that isn't discussed or mentioned as being a key part of everything, doesn't it seem rather odd for it to be in the books?

there's clearly a problem here. and changing the world is a silly solution that limits things for no good reason.

just fix the problem in the first place. polymorph is overpowered for it's level, and needs to be less ridiculously strong. pixies are overpowered for their CR, and you get way too many of them when you summon them as a result.

and if you're not going to fix either of those problems individually, you should at *least* fix the combination of the two which gets even more out of hand by either making a gentleman's agreement not to use it, or outright banning it. don't be passive-aggressive about it, that's just ridiculous as well. trolling your players is unlikely to get positive results. you have power over the entire game world, but if you use it screw your players over to "make a point" you're just starting a fight between the people playing the game, which is not desirable. as DM, you are the player (and yes, you are playing the game too) who has been given extra powers to improve the game experience. if conjuring 8 pixies for polymorph spam is detracting from the game experience, then make the necessary changes so that it stops detracting from the game experience.

if it's warping the game so much that you feel like you must start including a hard-counter to that one trick in every single encounter, it is still detracting from the game experience. you need a better solution than that.

[Officer Joy]

What lvl do the players have to be so they are stronger than a T-rex?

[Coidzor]

There are a lot of similar advice.
But one suggestion I haven't seen is to just lvl the players some. Eventually The Plain fighter will do more damage. Than the T-rex.
They loose all their PC abilities when the become T-rexes.

For starters, obviously power leveling them is going to be obvious.

The spellcasters also get spells that can do even more the higher level they go, so it could end up obviating several sessions of planned content.

It's very, very rare that it would at all be a feasible or appropriate thing to do.

[Delicious Taffy]

Okay, first thing: It's T. rex. There's no hyphen, and anyone telling you otherwise is a dirty liar.

Next thing: Do the other players have a problem with becoming a platoon of T. rex death machines? If not, find a way to accommodate their newfound love of prehistory. If it's a problem for them, nerf the caster.

[SharkForce]

What lvl do the players have to be so they are stronger than a T-rex?

hard to say for sure, different builds will hit their stride at different times.

for single class builds, most get a major boost at level 11, so i'd say probably by then for them. for multiclass builds? they all have their different points where they start to feel really good. but probably also around 11 at a guess.

but even then, that mostly presumes you're talking full-resources characters. a battlemaster fighter that blew all superiority dice in a fight earlier, or a caster that's got few spell slots remaining (or mostly lower-level stuff) and might otherwise be relying on cantrips for some fights, can *still* get a lot of mileage out of being a t-rex (or a giant ape, for that matter).

for the last fight of the day, would i rather be a rageless level 11 barbarian with half-ish HP, or a t-rex... honestly, i think a lot of the time the answer will be "t-rex". not necessarily in every case, but definitely some of the time. especially if, say, only 2-3 people feel the trade-off is worthwhile at that point (other people maybe still have some resources), which means i'm not just a t-rex... i'm a t-rex with 2-3 extra health bars in reserve. (edit: and if the decision is "wizard with only level 1-2 spell slots left or t-rex/giant ape", it isn't even close most of the time. i find it hard to imagine a scenario where quadruple-health t-rex isn't sounding wonderful comparatively).

[Officer Joy]

Right, forgot that the players might be low on resources before they get T.Rexed.
Then I'll put my money behind; "Talking to your players as an adult, tell them you aren't enjoying DMing for a party of T.Rexes. And ask them not to do it anymore."

[BillyBobShorton]

Here's how I'd handle it, without completely meta-nerfing the player or ruining the possibility of the T-rex party EVER happening, but make it rare enough that it's seldom.

Make a d20 chart for possible woodland beings. The usual like 1-4=monster x, 5-8=monster y, etc. Then have him roll a d20 when he casts it. 20 being pixies. Maybe console w/the player on a final version and explain why you are doing it. This allows you to be prepared for whatever he summons, won't cause bitterness, and still gives the players and yourself an element of surprise and pseudo-control by rolling dice. Players like to roll dice, get that gambling rush, and to be rewarded woth awesomeness for 20's.

I guarantee everyone would enjoy it because when a 20 happens, it's totally epic and boss as sh*t w/o breaking your game.

[Socratov]

Not true.

When the PCs' tactic becomes known, the hostile encounters they run into would be people who think they have a good chance to take on a group of T-Rexes (or at least the magic-users responsible for the dinos), or in a terrain they picked to make the party's tactic not work. Because it's logical.

The only reason the PCs use this method that much is because it is working all the time. Once it stops doing so, they will stop using it all the time, and try other things.

They can still use this tactic later on in situations where they know it'd work , but they'll be aware it won't always be efficient in all situations.

This. so much this. With some caveats and things to think about, but yes this.

To Illustrate this point I am going to tell a story about Bob. You can skip it to go straight to my points after the story, but it might be entertaining...

Bob is a player of mine and he likes to make characters that use a certain kind of trick. He can delve into exploit territory very quickly, and he knows this.

So one day, as I start DMing and he can finally use his player's knowledge again, I get to see his character and we talk about it.

Bob: "So I got this trick I would like to use and it might be a tad strong. You see, I get [stack of bonuses/etc.] here and using my familliar I will get advantage all the time. Isn't my new character insanely cool?"

So I tell Bob about my tendency while DMing:

Me: "Well, Bob, that looks great. Have you thought about dealing with [countermeasures] and losing your familliar? I mean, let's be honest here, this trick might succeed the first few times, but eventually, your character, as dashing as he is dressed will become known. And with it, your tactics."

We play for a couple of sessions, and eventually segue into PotA. he is not present, but the rest of the party is. And they get invited by the air cultists. They get baited into telling great stories. And I got them Hook, Line and Sinker. (thrice confirming for the storytellers what they tell and how they tell it, they bought into it big time). As the session ends, I tell the whole group what happened and that among other things, all their tactics have become common knowledge. Several sessions later they encounter the air cultists and yes the party has forgotten all about their storytelling and gets surprised by an enemy that knows all of their weaknesses. They still win, but they needed to invest considerably more resources and it cost them more then they'd had to deal with before.

Bob, is pissed as his familliar is almost instantly vaporised by the enemy. As the encounter ends I tell the players to take 5 and a discussion starts: Bob says that killing his bird form the get go was unfair. I tell him that the enemy was in the know of his tactics through the stories of the party earlier. I told him about it when that had happened. He tells me that it indeed wasn't unfair.

After the break I saw one of the better bits of roleplaying I have seen to this date: Bob's character threw a fit talking about how the enemy could have known. They had never seen them before, right? Then other players start telling about how they killed a manticore with them and might have told a few boastful stories about their awesomness. This created a great scene in which the players, and their characters learn to share their information. It was also for Bob a moment to use his bird more sparingly and aim for other ways of doing his thing. The players as a whole got a more reserved attitude versus the open sharing of information in regards to strangers.

So, the lessons learned are:


Any trick the PC's use should at least work a few times. Let the players have their moment of feeling clever. it's a great feeling and very fun to do.
Any trick the PC's use often becomes increasingly more common knowledge
having to up your DM game constantly to overcome a player trick is not fun since it can lead to unbalanced encounters.
countering a trick that becomes overused, or too well known, forces the player to reach for new options. When used sparingly that is fine and promotes character growth, when doing that too often, you become That DM (DM flavour of That Guy)
Talking this out beforehand is a good idea: this allows you as the DM to tell the player you are not having fun if he uses the same trick every time, and allows you both to hash out what you feel is fair and what isn't when dealing with that.
regardless of wether something IS fair, it's much more important for something to SEEM fair.


In regards to OP, the polymorph spell is not as good as people think: when used offensively it's a decent spell as it eliminates an opponent's capacity to act strategically, as well as take away their preferred actions (like Guinsoo's Scythe of Vice/sheepstick was in Dota), but when used to buff, well, please note that everything is replaced. only the non-game stats (being personality) are kept. In some cases that means handing control over to the DM for playing. Then there is the question of concentration: it's a feature of spellcasting (or the action of having cast a spell) and if you don't have the spellcasting feature, can you still concentrate on a spell? This is also why wildshape is awesome while polymorph is less so. As for conjure woodland beings, that has been tackled to hell and back. Also, talk to your player about your feelings. If he is dismissive about you not liking his tactics you can always nerf him during play.

[Tanarii]

you have power over the entire game world, but if you use it screw your players over to "make a point" you're just starting a fight between the people playing the game, which is not desirable. as DM, you are the player (and yes, you are playing the game too) who has been given extra powers to improve the game experience. if conjuring 8 pixies for polymorph spam is detracting from the game experience, then make the necessary changes so that it stops detracting from the game experience.

if it's warping the game so much that you feel like you must start including a hard-counter to that one trick in every single encounter, it is still detracting from the game experience. you need a better solution than that.
Pretty much my feelings on the matter. I mean, in game actions should have in-game consequences yadda yadda.

But if the players are using two slightly broken aspects of rules to combine them into a mega-broken rule, why as a DM am I going to mess around with contriving encounters instead of fixing the broken. Especially when fixing the broken combination, in particular, isn't going against RAW and is apparently RAI?

I mean. The entire world 'just happens' to know that the party likes to turn into pre-historic dinosaurs to curb-stomp things? That makes a huge assumption that the party is very famous and well known, and fighting enemies that have spent the time to research their tactics. The former is sometimes true IMC, but I've played plenty of other games where it's not. The latter is almost never true IMX. Generally speaking, PCs take the fight to enemies they were unaware were enemies until the beginning of the adventure, and vice versa. So doing this regularly will rapidly become the DM contriving the entire world around the PCs.

You might as well go full-on "the point of the game is storytelling" at that point, you're already contriving so much. :smalltongue:

[Rhedyn]

The DM picking summons isn't fixing RAW. It's embracing a worse version.

Here is what we did. We changed polymorph.

1. Caster can turn the target into ANY 1/2 cr creature (half the caster's level/cr or the target, which ever is lower). Polymorph cast only on the caster has no concentration requirement.

2. You use your own HP and Prof bonus.

3. An unwilling target can make another Wis save against the spell as an action.


We found that this buffed polymorph into useful while removing free HP shields, nerfing pixies, and giving a caster a reason not to just buffed allies and hide.

[Unoriginal]

I don't get why people start saying "why would you make every encounter/the whole world knows the PCs' tactic" when no one is suggesting that.

But PCs who are above level 5 are among the most talented/strongest group in the country, to say nothing about level 10+, so unless they only adventure far from any settlements, don't leave any witnesses, and don't talk about their adventures, or unless they take precautions to not be recognized, a fair share of people are going to know of the PCs, and if they use a very recognizable method several time, a decent amount of people will also know about it.

Not every enemies will prepare for it, obviously (and as it was said several times), since a decent share of enemies will not recognize the PCs or not know about them at all (ex: animals or extra-planar beings), but if your Wizard always deals with problems by spamming Fireballs at them, you can be sure that anyone who has heard of this Wizard and who has decided to take them out will have put a "find a way to deal with Fireballs" on their priority lists.

Same way that if PCs know there is a medusa in the area, they'll try any methods they can think of to avoid being turned into stones.

Why should the PCs be the only ones to have access to knowledge about their opponents?

EDIT:

Also, no, Pixies aren't too low CR. Pixies have 1 HP, no direct ways to attack, and not that great an AC. Their spells justifies their CR, no doubt, but a Pixie in an actual fight has little chances to survive pas the second round unless she's trying to escape

[Tanarii]

I don't get why people start saying "why would you make every encounter/the whole world knows the PCs' tactic" when no one is suggesting that. Because it sounds like you are suggesting that. For example, the following assumption translates to me as 'the whole world, at least a huge chunk of it, (effectively) knows about the PCs tactics':


But PCs who are above level 5 are among the most talented/strongest group in the country, to say nothing about level 10+, so unless they only adventure far from any settlements, don't leave any witnesses, and don't talk about their adventures, or unless they take precautions to not be recognized, a fair share of people are going to know of the PCs, and if they use a very recognizable method several time, a decent amount of people will also know about it.Theres so many assumptions being contrived in here I don't even know exactly where to begin.

I guess I'll start with: yes. IMX as a general rule, PCs adventure far from any settlements & don't leave any witnesses. This seems to generally hold true in campaigns I've run, campaigns I've played in, and definitely is the general rule in official play.

Wether or not they tell tales of their adventures, they're likely to be regarded as tall tales and boasting. "... and then our sorcerer turned us all into giant man-eating lizards ..." isn't likely to be viewed as anything other than a drunken tavern tale. :smallamused:

Edit: yeah, if PCs are smart enough to research specific opponents and their weaknesses, they'll prepare appropriately. How often does that really happen? Players don't generally do that. Similarly, there's no reason to expect that generally the Pcs opponents will do it. Occasionally? Yeah sure.

I do take your point that if they literally do it every fight, they might become known as 'Team Dinosaur' or something. Like ... it's probably generally known that Hulk Smash. :smallwink:

[StoicLeaf]

But PCs who are above level 5 are among the most talented/strongest group in the country.



Going to disagree here, this depends on the world you're running.

[SharkForce]

In regards to OP, the polymorph spell is not as good as people think: when used offensively it's a decent spell as it eliminates an opponent's capacity to act strategically, as well as take away their preferred actions (like Guinsoo's Scythe of Vice/sheepstick was in Dota), but when used to buff, well, please note that everything is replaced. only the non-game stats (being personality) are kept. In some cases that means handing control over to the DM for playing. Then there is the question of concentration: it's a feature of spellcasting (or the action of having cast a spell) and if you don't have the spellcasting feature, can you still concentrate on a spell? This is also why wildshape is awesome while polymorph is less so. As for conjure woodland beings, that has been tackled to hell and back. Also, talk to your player about your feelings. If he is dismissive about you not liking his tactics you can always nerf him during play.

there is not a shred of unclarity as to whether you can concentrate when you can't cast spells, unless you suddenly decide to invent some because polymorph is screwing your game up. there is no rule stating that only spellcasters get this mystical ability to concentrate. concentration is not a feature of spellcasting, it is merely something that sometimes happens when you cast a spell, which you can potentially do without any spellcasting feature at all. if i give you a ring of spell storing with a web in it, and you're a champion fighter, you don't sit there unable to concentrate and watch the web immediately disappear the instant after you cast it, you just concentrate, because it's just an ability everyone has. including polymorphed spellcasters, to be absolutely clear, because transmutation wizards literally get a self-only polymorph ability.

your character is your character; nothing says you lose control when you're polymorphed, so you don't. in fact, it even goes so far as to tell you that you still care about the things you care about. when a spell gives control to someone or something else, it says so. like dominate person or fear.

polymorph is completely out of whack with everything else as a combat buff, on top of being a powerful utility and debuff spell already. it doesn't need to turn level 7 PCs into something that is a decent fight for 4 level 7 PCs to be a worthwhile spell, it already has tons of value without being a straight-up improvement over a level 7 fighter.


EDIT:

Also, no, Pixies aren't too low CR. Pixies have 1 HP, no direct ways to attack, and not that great an AC. Their spells justifies their CR, no doubt, but a Pixie in an actual fight has little chances to survive pas the second round unless she's trying to escape

pixies have several ways to attack, 4 of which are based on spell DCs (one of which can deal damage, note that for calculating CR you assume failed saves), plus the sleep spell on top of that. their AC of 15 is 2 full points above typical for a CR 1/4 creature., plus they have flight, magic resistance, and superior invisibility, all of which increases their defensive CR. they can assume the form of any beast of their CR as well, which is another method of dealing damage available to them, as well as a substantially increased HP pool.

3 wolves will give 4 level 1 PCs a hard time (and is a hard encounter), and has some potential with bad luck to become a TPK. 3 pixies will the great majority of the time completely crush 4 level 1 PCs in the first round unless they have spectacularly bad luck, probably without the party even getting to take any actions at all, and is supposedly the same difficulty as the wolves. even 2 pixies, a supposedly "easy" encounter, has serious potential to go disastrously wrong.

in order for a level 1 party to successfully attack the pixies, they must:

1) first actually beat the stealth of the pixies. they have +7, equivalent to the best point-buy rogue possible. and they're invisible, so they can hide in the open.
2) actually win initiative against the pixies, which have a +5 (probably 2 points better than almost any starting PC's initiative bonus).
3) having noticed the pixies (which is unlikely) and won initiative (which is unlikely), they must now find a way to actually do damage - probably some form of ranged weapon, since level 1 AoE isn't exactly common, especially when we're talking about AoE paired with ability to actually notice the pixies and beat them in initiative (and even if it is available, the pixies can easily be spread out). the attack will be against AC 15 plus probably some cover, with a +5 bonus, but at disadvantage (superior invisibility). yes, they have 1 HP. but first you have to hit. if your life depends on it (and if the pixies are for some reason trying to kill you, it absolutely does), these cumulative odds that you must beat in order to avoid a TPK don't sound very reasonable.

if all of the above are not successful, the pixies can then just use their sleep spells (and even if one died, the other 2 have a fair chance of taking out the entire party with just sleep spells). one lucky roll out of the three is needed to take down 2 PCs, the other 2 rolls just need to not be absolutely awful to take down 1 PC, unless your entire party are hill dwarf barbarians with 16 con or something. in all likelihood, your party are all now asleep and at the mercy of the pixies... which can now polymorph into boars (to pick one example), and use their charge ability on one PC per turn. note that the first hit (with all attacks being at advantage; you're prone and incapacitated) will be a guaranteed crit, so odds are good you're looking at 8d6+3 damage each time they do this. or they can each turn into giant owls, pick up a PC each (grappling is a guaranteed success, you're incapacitated), fly you up into the sky, take one good whack at you for 4d6+1 damage (remember, that first hit is a critical), and then drop you as a free action for another 10d6 damage. or turn into wolf spiders for their alpha strike and paralyze you for the next hour, during which time they can kill you at their leisure. note that sleep does not require them to drop invisibility either, and they do not need to make any sounds to cast it because the only component is their own pixie dust.

now, usually, this is the point at which people start screaming about how pixies aren't going to do that. well, first of all, CR isn't a measurement of the likelihood of a monster to do something, it's a measure of their power in combat. CR doesn't give a crap about whether they're likely to attack you or not. a knight is CR 3 whether they're your childhood friend or a hated enemy. secondly, conjure woodland beings explicitly says that the pixies will obey commands, and no, it isn't reasonable to presume they need to speak the same language as you because that *exact same phrase* is used for conjure animals, which conjures things that don't speak any language at all, and conjure animals is presumed to allow you to control the animals without a speak with animals spell or similar. but even if it is, that still leaves us with either a scenario where the pixies are completely broken at CR 1/4, or a scenario where the pixies are completely useless because they'll just go around messing with people and ignoring you. neither of those scenarios are good balance.

so no, pixies should not be CR 1/4, and yes, that is relevant. now, that may almost never come up in your games, but it doesn't mean that it isn't there, and it sure as hell doesn't mean it can't possibly come up in anyone else's game.

[Tanarii]

Going to disagree here, this depends on the world you're running.
This may be true, but the PHB & DMG sections on Tiers of play has some language to indicate that Tier 2 PCs are generally assumed to be major players within / at the 'country' (kingdoms /nations) level. See PHB 15 & DMG 37.

Interestingly the PHB puts Tier 2 as potentially kingdoms and Tier 3 as regions. DMG puts it the other way around, Tier 2 regions and Tier 3 nations. :smallconfused:

I mean, they're just general & rough guidelines. But I'm assuming that's the basis for Unoriginal's comment.

[Malifice]

You either do 5e's marathon encounter slogs everyday or you're playing wrong.

No, you're playing it wrong.

And you're also the kind of guy who pops into a 5E forum to hang **** on the game.

You're that guy.

Think about that for a bit.

[Knaight]

Edit: yeah, if PCs are smart enough to research specific opponents and their weaknesses, they'll prepare appropriately. How often does that really happen? Players don't generally do that. Similarly, there's no reason to expect that generally the Pcs opponents will do it. Occasionally? Yeah sure.

The PCs are usually a fairly small and self contained organization. The opposition is much more likely to involve many more people, and generally do more research. To use a game example, consider the 4x genre - particularly the likes of the Dominions series. There there's all sorts of weird monsters and such, and large organizations will develop specific counters to individual dangerous groups. It's not a perfect process (there's little more hilarious than when you hit a very specific counter extremely well tailored to something other than you), but it happens. The same thing happened historically all the time, albeit across a smaller range of stuff (what with the absence of magic and monsters) and somewhat more slowly until the modern era.

This also applies to RPGs, with all the same caveats. This sort of preparation among the opponents is vastly more likely when they're the ones picking the fight, extreme wrong specialization happens sometimes, and when elite strike teams (e.g. the PCs) bump up against minor enemy forces (scouts, low end raiding forced aimed at civilians) it goes really well, while it goes really poorly when elite strike teams (e.g. the PCs) have the misfortune of ending up in the same area as the really nasty threats (upper end dragons, gods, better strike teams).

Plus, from a gameplay perspective the water elemental tunnel ambush against your high mobility pyromancer stings a lot much when they also get in a fight against an enemy troll hunting squad.

[Tanarii]

The PCs are usually a fairly small and self contained organization. The opposition is much more likely to involve many more people, and generally do more research.And again, this comes down to the assumption that the likely many more people organization is even aware of the PC's fairly small and self-contained organization.

I mean, this is all YMMV, but my objections are: why are we either assuming this must be the case, or changing things so this must be the case? RAW doesn't prohibit fixing the problem, RAI actively supports fixing the problem, so why doesn't a DM just fix the problem? Instead you're either making assumptions about the types of campaigns that this broken combo (that doesn't need to be a broken combo) allows, or actively bending a campaign to fit the kinds it allows.

[Knaight]

And again, this comes down to the assumption that the likely many more people organization is even aware of the PC's fairly small and self-contained organization.

I mean, this is all YMMV, but my objections are: why are we either assuming this must be the case, or changing things so this must be the case? RAW doesn't prohibit fixing the problem, RAI actively supports fixing the problem, so why doesn't a DM just fix the problem? Instead you're either making assumptions about the types of campaigns that this broken combo (that doesn't need to be a broken combo) allows, or actively bending a campaign to fit the kinds it allows.

I'm all for tweaking the rules to make them less broken, but the existence of a faction that the PCs are hostile to is hardly some major campaign premise - particularly once they're past the first few levels. Even if the campaign structure wasn't made around a central conflict the PCs are still probably going to make enemies. They're run by players after all.

[Tanarii]

I'm all for tweaking the rules to make them less broken, but the existence of a faction that the PCs are hostile to is hardly some major campaign premise - particularly once they're past the first few levels. Even if the campaign structure wasn't made around a central conflict the PCs are still probably going to make enemies. They're run by players after all.
But the assumption that every fight and encounter, or even the vast majority of them, are against a faction hostile to the PCs that knew about them in advance enough to spend time researching them, is a very major campaign premise.

[SharkForce]

But the assumption that every fight and encounter, or even the vast majority of them, are against a faction hostile to the PCs that knew about them in advance enough to spend time researching them, is a very major campaign premise.

not just knew about them, mind you, but knew enough about them to know their current location and goals and had the resources in place to deploy their specialized anti-PC squads en masse into that area.

i mean, sure, maybe they know you've got an expert grappler, but unless they have a really good fix on your location, it just isn't plausible to assume that you exclusively encounter groups where everyone has free action pre-cast on them. that only makes sense if your enemies know that you have a grappler, and that you're in the mountain pass over there, and that you're heading for the ancient ruins in the valley below, and you should arrive at those ruins on tuesday shortly after noon, and also they have some scouts in place to watch for your arrival and signal that it's time to pre-buff, and that they also have everything they need to pull off this plan in position to get there before the PCs.

to assume that your enemies are aware that you have access to something? well, that isn't completely unreasonable, if those enemies know of your existence and consider you to be their enemy. but actually getting those resources in place every single time? that just isn't plausible.

[Tanarii]

Wow. You went full Schrodinger's Villians there. :smallbiggrin:

[Knaight]

Nobody is suggesting that they are in place every single time - particularly when the PCs are the ones picking the fight.

[SharkForce]

Nobody is suggesting that they are in place every single time - particularly when the PCs are the ones picking the fight.

"on very rare occasions when the party screw up royally" is not going to solve a problem that comes up in almost every fight for several levels (at least, not those levels... if it was levels 1-3, it would go by pretty quickly regardless, like the moon druid spike at level 2).

[Knaight]

"on very rare occasions when the party screw up royally" is not going to solve a problem that comes up in almost every fight for several levels (at least, not those levels... if it was levels 1-3, it would go by pretty quickly regardless, like the moon druid spike at level 2).

If enemies of the PCs starting fights is somehow an incredibly rare thing that only happens in the context of extreme screwups then we're clearly looking at very different styles of game - in my experience that describes at least 3/4 of the fights in most campaigns.

[Citan]

But the assumption that every fight and encounter, or even the vast majority of them, are against a faction hostile to the PCs that knew about them in advance enough to spend time researching them, is a very major campaign premise.


not just knew about them, mind you, but knew enough about them to know their current location and goals and had the resources in place to deploy their specialized anti-PC squads en masse into that area.

Impressive how some guys, because they know they have no real argument to oppose people who disagree with them on a matter, don't hesitate to go as low as blowing the adverse view out of proportion to try and make it look inept... Such an ugly sight to bear... :smallfrown:

Because, really, I read the same thread as you, and nobody here ever said every fight had to be tailored specifically for the sole purpose of making the combo irrelevant... Quite on the contrary, many people here suggested different things that range from as little as "just really play it by RAW" (being polymophred in a low mental beast has necessarily some counterparts) up to "oppose enemies with specific counters", with a whole range of graduated answers between those, and how to make them relevant and coherent in terms of world fluff. So OP really can mix any of those as he sees fit.
And 90% of the time, all those suggestions were preluded by a "speak out of game first to raise your concerns and/or ensure all players enjoyed it so far". So it's not like anyone here has been encouraging a "DM versus player" mindset either.

But it seems some people here only read what they want to read and put aside everything else. It's a bit boring at times. :)

[Unoriginal]

Imagine you're a Red Wizard of Thay. You've heard that several of your allies' smuggling warehouses have been busted by Volo, a Tielfling in plate armor, a Goliath who get in murderous rages, some kind of human spellcaster, and a Druid who can turn into a big, scaly beast.

Are you going to, you know, plan something to deal with those guys, or are you just going to think "well, I'm sure our usual security is going to work this time"?

[Citan]

Imagine you're a Red Wizard of Thay. You've heard that several of your allies' smuggling warehouse had been busted by Volo, a Tielfling in plate armor, a Goliath who get in murderous rages, some kind of human spellcaster, and a Druid who can turn into a big, scaly beast.

Are you going to, you know, plan something to deal with those guys, or are you just going to think "well, I'm sure our usual security is going to work"?
"Well, I'm sure our usual security is going to work..."

But that's because I'm a level 20 paranoïd Wizard (pleonasm?) that spent years making a fortress capable of holding (at least a bit) against the dreaded 6-man party of level 20 Diniver Wizards (*poke the ultimate party thread*)...

Oh, you meant, what would a Red Wizard of Thay (who is that by the way?) actually do in any credible world? :smalltongue:

[Lombra]

3 wolves will give 4 level 1 PCs a hard time (and is a hard encounter), and has some potential with bad luck to become a TPK. 3 pixies will the great majority of the time completely crush 4 level 1 PCs in the first round unless they have spectacularly bad luck, probably without the party even getting to take any actions at all, and is supposedly the same difficulty as the wolves. even 2 pixies, a supposedly "easy" encounter, has serious potential to go disastrously wrong.


Actually three pixies are a 1.5 deadly encounter for a four-men level 1 party.

50xp each, times three is 150, times 2 for the virtual exp modifier relative to the number of monsters gives 600 adjusted xp value. Same goes for wolves.

2 pixies give 100 xp, the easy threshold for four level 1 PCs.

Four level 1 PCs have a deadly encounter threshold of 400 xp.

One should not balance encounters on CR only. Experience should be the primary value to refere to, plus, one should not put a monster with a CR greater than the party's level.

Edit: you only need a sorcerer or wizard with magic missile to end the three pixies encounter. The hard part should be to get them within line of sight at the same time, but if they turn invisible they drop concentration, so it's not actually that bad.

[Tanarii]

If enemies of the PCs starting fights is somehow an incredibly rare thing that only happens in the context of extreme screwups then we're clearly looking at very different styles of game - in my experience that describes at least 3/4 of the fights in most campaigns.
Oh wow. Okay, yeah, your experience is majorly different from almost all official play, the vast majority of published modules, along with most home campaigns I've run or played in. No wonder you're okay with the 'outlandish' assumptions. :smallbiggrin:

[Sigreid]

The PCs aren't likely to be the only ones that can do this. Competent opponents are likely to know such things can be done. It's not meta and gamist to assume a reasonable number of them will be ready for this trick, or have a trick of their own. Not every opponent, but some. There is no reason to completely shut down the trick. You just have to have a world where it can't be the only trick.

[Knaight]

Oh wow. Okay, yeah, your experience is majorly different from almost all official play, the vast majority of published modules, along with most home campaigns I've run or played in. No wonder you're okay with the 'outlandish' assumptions. :smallbiggrin:

This might just be my dislike of dungeon crawls coming through - when the fights tend to happen for reasons other than "they were in the dungeon" it shifts the conditions a bit, with five major categories of fight. Notably:
1) The PCs aim to directly harm an enemy, and so they go after them.
2) An enemy aims to directly harm the PCs and so they go after them or send their minions to do so.
3) The PCs are pursuing a non combat goal in opposition to some organization, and it goes south (usually this means infiltration, thievery, or really bad negotiations).
4) There's already a fight, and the PCs enter on one of the sides.
5) An enemy is pursuing a non combat goal against the PCs, and they respond with violence.

Of these type 2 is generally the single most common type of fight, followed by type 1 and type 3, followed by type 5 (mostly because a lot of type 5 schemes can't be responded to immediately and thus work out to a delayed type 1 or counter-scheming), with type 4 bringing up the rear, plus the various miscellaneous reasons.

Type 2 is extremely likely to involve anti-PC specialization after the first few times conventional forces fail horribly. Type 1 is likely to start showing anti-PC specialization after the first few strikes, but there's often softer targets where this isn't the case. Type 5 likely has anti-PC specialization as well, but geared more towards escape than anything else, and type 3 can build up anti-PC specialization if similar non-combat tactics get used heavily. Together these can work out to a decent fraction of the fights in a campaign.

Type 4 meanwhile is disproportionately likely to end up with foes specialized against somebody else having a very bad day, although it's also the most likely type to involve the PCs going up against overwhelming forces that they'd normally just run from.

[PhoenixPhyre]

This might just be my dislike of dungeon crawls coming through - when the fights tend to happen for reasons other than "they were in the dungeon" it shifts the conditions a bit, with five major categories of fight. Notably:
1) The PCs aim to directly harm an enemy, and so they go after them.
2) An enemy aims to directly harm the PCs and so they go after them or send their minions to do so.
3) The PCs are pursuing a non combat goal in opposition to some organization, and it goes south (usually this means infiltration, thievery, or really bad negotiations).
4) There's already a fight, and the PCs enter on one of the sides.
5) An enemy is pursuing a non combat goal against the PCs, and they respond with violence.

Of these type 2 is generally the single most common type of fight, followed by type 1 and type 3, followed by type 5 (mostly because a lot of type 5 schemes can't be responded to immediately and thus work out to a delayed type 1 or counter-scheming), with type 4 bringing up the rear, plus the various miscellaneous reasons.

Type 2 is extremely likely to involve anti-PC specialization after the first few times conventional forces fail horribly. Type 1 is likely to start showing anti-PC specialization after the first few strikes, but there's often softer targets where this isn't the case. Type 5 likely has anti-PC specialization as well, but geared more towards escape than anything else, and type 3 can build up anti-PC specialization if similar non-combat tactics get used heavily. Together these can work out to a decent fraction of the fights in a campaign.

Type 4 meanwhile is disproportionately likely to end up with foes specialized against somebody else having a very bad day, although it's also the most likely type to involve the PCs going up against overwhelming forces that they'd normally just run from.

One question I have is as to worldbuilding. If countering the PCs strategies require specific builds (combinations of feats, classes, and spells), then how are the NPC organizations producing such people on demand? I've always considered that when the DM creates NPCs specifically to counter the PCs (and such would require specialized training or character building) it's a form of meta-gaming. That is, those aren't realistic NPCs (who would more naturally have a wider and less focused build). This makes the NPCs out to be clones, stamped out with whatever modifications are necessary on demand rather than living people who happen to have been sent against the party.

This is the same reason I don't like the idea that characters have this giant list of available options (feats, spells, etc) from which to choose when they increase in power. Spell-casters focus on spells that are like the ones they've focused on in the past--the guy who handles scrying for a thieves guild isn't going to go out of his way to pick up meteor swarm. NPCs with feats don't have a list of feats to choose from--they get ones that reflect their history. NPCs should be characters as well.

I can understand it if the NPC organization is huge and the PCs are considered a top-priority threat (and thus the organization can pull in specialists from afar). My world at least doesn't have these sorts of huge organizations. There are certainly active beings (Demon Princes, Gods, one particular semi-ascended dragon) who are keeping an eye on the party because of things they've done, but up until now they've not been an existential threat to any of them. They've bounced around, getting involved on the sidelines of a bunch of different plots. Most of the groups they've directly opposed they've either outgrown, destroyed completely, or made friends with later.

[Knaight]

One question I have is as to worldbuilding. If countering the PCs strategies require specific builds (combinations of feats, classes, and spells), then how are the NPC organizations producing such people on demand? I've always considered that when the DM creates NPCs specifically to counter the PCs (and such would require specialized training or character building) it's a form of meta-gaming. That is, those aren't realistic NPCs (who would more naturally have a wider and less focused build). This makes the NPCs out to be clones, stamped out with whatever modifications are necessary on demand rather than living people who happen to have been sent against the party.

A lot of the time this specialization wouldn't require specific builds, at least not beyond a fairly high level overview that already makes sense in setting (e.g. archer, knight, etc.), and it comes down to equipment and tactics more than anything else. There's no need for metagaming.

[KorvinStarmast]

Just cannot go for the night without massively plussing the whole post. Especially the "growl-only" RP. Excellent idea. :) Thank you for the compliment. :smallsmile:

I noted that a few pages ago someone asserted that polymorph (the 4th level spell) is overpowered, and I disagree. In certain situations, like an magical spell, it can be great, but ...
it costs a resource (4th level spell)
it requires concentration
A saving throw nullifies it
The forms that can be chosen are limited to beasts

In the absolute sense, polymorph is not overpowered, particularly in a game where the DM tests the party's resource management skills. (Not all games are played like this, however).

Compare this to fireball: against a semi tightly packed group of low HD creatures, fireball is very powerful. versus a red dragon? Not so much. Likewise with polymorph.
(Also, against intelligent adversaries it can be dispelled).

[SharkForce]

Actually three pixies are a 1.5 deadly encounter for a four-men level 1 party.

50xp each, times three is 150, times 2 for the virtual exp modifier relative to the number of monsters gives 600 adjusted xp value. Same goes for wolves.

2 pixies give 100 xp, the easy threshold for four level 1 PCs.

Four level 1 PCs have a deadly encounter threshold of 400 xp.

One should not balance encounters on CR only. Experience should be the primary value to refere to, plus, one should not put a monster with a CR greater than the party's level.

Edit: you only need a sorcerer or wizard with magic missile to end the three pixies encounter. The hard part should be to get them within line of sight at the same time, but if they turn invisible they drop concentration, so it's not actually that bad.

- sleep does not require concentration. by the time they drop concentration, you're already screwed, and the wizard or sorcerer was probably the first to fall asleep.
- 2 pixies have an appallingly high chance to take down a level 1 party if they get lucky. certainly not an "almost guaranteed doom" scenario, but it really shouldn't even get anywhere near that point for an easy encounter that one or two lucky rolls means everyone's screwed. and that's assuming everyone is at full HP. if everyone is down to half HP, it doesn't even require a lot of luck.
- last i checked, 50 xp times 3 = 150, times 2 = 300. you appear to have doubled the adjusted exp budget twice accidentally.
- the whole point of CR is to help you balance encounters. now, if we're talking about some exceptional environment, then sure, you should adjust that. a fight against large snakes where you're stuck in their tunnels using the squeezing rules? okay, that deserves some adjusting. i'm not calling for some weird or unusual environment though. just a regular encounter. so if pixies don't present a fair challenge to a party in that scenario, then there's a problem with their CR.

edit:



I noted that a few pages ago someone asserted that polymorph (the 4th level spell) is overpowered, and I disagree. In certain situations, like an magical spell, it can be great, but ...
it costs a resource (4th level spell)
it requires concentration
A saving throw nullifies it
The forms that can be chosen are limited to beasts

In the absolute sense, polymorph is not overpowered, particularly in a game where the DM tests the party's resource management skills. (Not all games are played like this, however).

Compare this to fireball: against a semi tightly packed group of low HD creatures, fireball is very powerful. versus a red dragon? Not so much. Likewise with polymorph.
(Also, against intelligent adversaries it can be dispelled).

- all spells cost a resource. if polymorph is ridiculously far ahead of other spells of the same level, the cost is not where it should be.
- lots of spells require concentration. they still need to be balanced. polymorph is an extremely powerful and versatile spell, beyond what is reasonable. how many other spells are extremely powerful debuffs, provide amazing utility, and also can be an exceptional combat buff, all in one?
- again, a saving throw nullifies it is nothing unusual. lots of spells require concentration and allow saving throws and cost a level 4 slot. polymorph is substantially better than all of them, especially at level 7 when you first get it and it is an insane power increase in combat.

all those drawbacks exist for other spells as well (well, not the beasts-only one, which is fairly specific, but there are plenty of useful beasts to turn into anyways so it isn't that huge of a drawback). none of those other spells are as ridiculous as polymorph. there is a heck of a lot of room to dial back polymorph before it becomes a bad spell, because right now it is so overtuned as a combat buff at those levels.

[KorvinStarmast]

polymorph is ridiculously far ahead of other spells. Nope. The use of overstatement does not fit the topic we are discussing. I suspect that you and I shall need to agree to disagree.

[Citan]

Lots of spells require concentration. They still need to be balanced. Polymorph is an extremely powerful and versatile spell, beyond what is reasonable. How many other spells are extremely powerful debuffs, provide amazing utility, and also can be an exceptional combat buff, all in one?
Finally a constructive question, although you obviously didn't expect answer... :)

Well then...

Banishment (4th)
debuff: check (enemy cannot act).
utility: uncheck imo (well, you can certainly find creative uses, but it's hard).
buff: check (one less enemy to worry about).

Stinking Cloud (3rd)
debuff: check (enemy cannot act).
utility: check (can be used as is, to provide cover, as a distraction...)
buff: uncheck (heavily obscured area means disadvantage against people outside, but we can expect most creatures to have darkvision to some extent).

Slow (3rd)
debuff: check (limited action, lesser AC)
utility: check (used as is, to ease fleeing)
buff: check (lesser AC and DEX saves means easier to hit).

Wall of Fire (4th)
debuff: check (heavily obscured, auto-damage)
utility: check (divide a battlefield, protect from archers, set fire to enemy camp, create distraction)
buff: check (since it creates an opaque wall, you are protected from archers/casters).

Conjure Animals (3rd)
debuff: check (cast animals that can grapple/shove prone)
utility: check (scouts, mounts, check helpers, advantage givers, take your pick)
buff: check (see just above, also can serve as meat shield).

Black Tentacles (4th)
debuff: check (restrain, autodamage)
utility: check (see wall of fire mainly)
buff: check (thanks to restrain condition, preventing enemies to reach melee range

Bigby's Hand (5th)
debuff: check (restrain)
utility: check (grapple/push/creatures, lift/push/destroy large objects, lift yourself/allies over chasm/walls, limit is only your creativity -although I know it can be a problem for you ^^).
buff: check (Interposing Hand).

Telekinesis (5th)
debuff: check (restrained)
utility: check (see previous spell, uses are similar)
buff: check (pull a big object to create fullcover, keep a dangerous melee guy from ever reaching you... That is a big buff to survival here).

I think it's useless I continue, you probably got the point by now.
Many, MANY spells can be used to great effects, whether in a utility way or a combat-winning way. You don't have to consider the effects in a void, but how it impacts everything around. That's why even a simple spell such as Blindness is effectively one of the great non-concentration buff/debuff you can use at low level.
Of course, the big difference with Polymorph is that spells that affect enemies have a chance to fail. But since you included "powerful debuff" into Polymorph effect, it implies you also considered its use on enemy creature, so it makes it fair to speak of "buffs" for other spells affecting enemy creatures. To note on that aspect, with Polymorph as a buff, as powerful it may be, it only affects one ally ever. Whereas it or any other mentioned spells applied on an enemy effectively "buff" all party as a return. Conclude what you want with that. :)

[Tanarii]

- last i checked, 50 xp times 3 = 150, times 2 = 300. you appear to have doubled the adjusted exp budget twice accidentally.
And two pixies is 50 x2 X1.5 = 150 XP for difficulty.

So for a party of four (ie median sized by DMG assumptions of 2-6 player), 2 pixies is a middling Easy challenge (150 XP), and 3 pixies a Hard challenge (300 XP), and 4 pixies a Deadly challenge (400 XP).


But whatever's clever. The easiest fix that doesn't require any change to RAW, meets SA RAI, and doesn't require specially designing combo-specific-countering encounters, in order to deal with something that's roundly considered a broken combo, is for the DM to put some limits on Conjure {creature} spells where needed.

Edit: also, polymorph is definitely out of line power-wise, as a buff. If you want to house-rule it into line, a quick fix is to change it to max CR = target PC level -2.

Of course, this doesn't fix its main problem: massive temp hit point gain. Same problem Druid Wild Shape has. Really the entire 'hit points of the creature gets added on top of your current hit point' thing 5e does for these effects needs to be reconsidered. Because the way it is now isn't working very well.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Of course, this doesn't fix its main problem: massive temp hit point gain. Same problem Druid Wild Shape has. Really the entire 'hit points of the creature gets added on top of your current hit point' thing 5e does for these effects needs to be reconsidered. Because the way it is now isn't working very well.

Oddly enough, when I looked at the Archdruid NPC stat block for use as an opponent, it seems that it doesn't use the same rules as PC druids do. Specifically, it doesn't replace HP at all IIRC. It gets the AC, attacks, and physical abilities, but none of the HP. I'm AFB so I can't double check, but that's what I saw at first glance. Makes me wonder, it does...

[Tanarii]

I don't think "no extra hit points" would be balanced, especially for Druid Wild Shape. I'm not sure what would be a good way to tweak the way it works. I just know it's not working well right now. :smallyuk:

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't think "no extra hit points" would be balanced, especially for Druid Wild Shape. I'm not sure what would be a good way to tweak the way it works. I just know it's not working well right now. :smallyuk:

Right. I'm just saying I found it interesting (and gave this particular arch druid THP equal to half the new form's HP). Didn't matter, they stunning striked her and nuked her in about 1.5 rounds anyway.

I find the whole "summon pixies and use polymorph" thing an odd beast entirely. It implies that the character a) knows about pixies (which may or may not be true) and b) knows they can use polymorph. It also requires players who dumpster dive through the MM (or through forums) looking for "broken" combinations. That's serious meta-gaming from my perspective. I'd be willing to restrict player-chosen summons to the ones out of the back of the PHB, with ones from the MM under DM's control only. The MM is not supposed to be a player book. This was the big problem with summoning and shapeshifting in 3.5--exploiting monster forms that were never intended to be used by PCs. Every new MM that came out (or any book with new forms) multiplied the problem significantly. I'd like to avoid that in 5e if possible.

[Tanarii]

I find the whole "summon pixies and use polymorph" thing an odd beast entirely. It implies that the character a) knows about pixies (which may or may not be true) and b) knows they can use polymorph. It also requires players who dumpster dive through the MM (or through forums) looking for "broken" combinations. That's serious meta-gaming from my perspective. i can certainly tell you if I knew pixies could polymorph (IMO that seems like a lore thing) and had a way to summon them, or if I knew someone that could polymorph ... the second I found out giant raptor-dinosaurs were a thing I'd be changing into them non-stop. :smallbiggrin:

What's interesting to me is I've never played a game where dinosaurs were a thing before. Mostly because I've never run or played anything in Chult or BECMI's Hollow World. But I've got a campaign (adventure arcs, single party) I'm running in Mystara right now that's eventually going to go to the Hollow World if it stays together long enough ... and that group has a Moon Druid as a core party member. Meaning the 'creatures you've seen' requirement will be met. Should be interesting.

[SharkForce]

But whatever's clever. The easiest fix that doesn't require any change to RAW, meets SA RAI, and doesn't require specially designing combo-specific-countering encounters, in order to deal with something that's roundly considered a broken combo, is for the DM to put some limits on Conjure {creature} spells where needed.

Edit: also, polymorph is definitely out of line power-wise, as a buff. If you want to house-rule it into line, a quick fix is to change it to max CR = target PC level -2.

Of course, this doesn't fix its main problem: massive temp hit point gain. Same problem Druid Wild Shape has. Really the entire 'hit points of the creature gets added on top of your current hit point' thing 5e does for these effects needs to be reconsidered. Because the way it is now isn't working very well.

simply restricting the combination specifically does help quite a bit, mainly because you've got one thing that's a a fair bit too powerful and another thing that's a fair bit too powerful multiplying each other, more or less. polymorph is ridiculous for the levels where you first get it, and pixies are the wrong CR, and CWB ==> 8 pixies ==> 8 polymorphs kinda compounds the problem. polymorph on its own is an extremely powerful buff (and unlike citan, i don't count "debuffing an enemy" as being both a debuff to the enemy *and* a buff to the party... you can count that as one or the other, but no double-dipping), and when you can get 8 instances of it, that just pushes things way too far.


i can certainly tell you if I knew pixies could polymorph (IMO that seems like a lore thing) and had a way to summon them, or if I knew someone that could polymorph ... the second I found out giant raptor-dinosaurs were a thing I'd be changing into them non-stop. :smallbiggrin:

What's interesting to me is I've never played a game where dinosaurs were a thing before. Mostly because I've never run or played anything in Chult or BECMI's Hollow World. But I've got a campaign (adventure arcs, single party) I'm running in Mystara right now that's eventually going to go to the Hollow World if it stays together long enough ... and that group has a Moon Druid as a core party member. Meaning the 'creatures you've seen' requirement will be met. Should be interesting.

honestly, even with no dinosaurs, it can get pretty out of hand. the CR 7 giant ape is not really a huge amount behind in terms of raw power, for example, and actually gains quite a bit in utility (it isn't super smart, but honestly, it may be almost as smart as your fighter was in the first place, and it has a climb speed, a ranged attack, and athletics proficiency over the t-rex, all of which doesn't factor into CR, so even when t-rex is an option i think there are probably situations where you want a giant ape anyways).

and as more beasts get released, polymorph just gets that little bit better. we don't have dire or giant versions of a number of animals (lions and tigers and bears, oh my!), and when eberron hits there will presumably be magebred beasts, and if there's ever a statblock for trained versions of beasts with barding that can change things as well. heck, even the giant ape goes from AC 12 to AC 15 with a simple mage armour spell cast in advance...

and seriously, who's going to argue that nobody knows about dinosaurs or magebred animals in eberron?

anyways, i do agree, if you don't want to change any rules, gentleman's agreement to not abuse things is better than changing every fight to suddenly be with specialized anti-PC enemies. personally, i prefer just changing the rules. polymorph being max CR = spell level still allows for 2 excellent uses of the spell (debuffing and utility) without the ridiculousness of turning a CR 7 fighter into a monster that is a deadly fight for 2 level 7 fighters or a hard fight for 3 level 7 fighters. and again, that's ignoring the fact that you can go from near zero resources (low HP, few remaining spell slots/superiority dice/rages/etc) to having plenty (150 HP, and at-will damage as good as many level 11 warriors).

[SharkForce]

I like this, for Moon Druid:

They get unlimited Wild Shape of beasts that Land Druid can turn into, but their combat Wild Shapes are still limited to 2 per Short Rest

wrong problem, this guy hasn't gotten there yet ;)