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blackspeeker
2007-08-14, 08:47 PM
Hey, my group of DND players are getting together one last time before we all split off this year for our freshmen year of college, and i noticed a few days ago people were saying druids were one of the most powerful classes after wizards but before clerics.

My group had come to the consensus that druids were pretty week in most all respects, so could someone tell me, how and why they're so strong, so when we reconvene after fall break, I'll have them all convinced it would be better for me to play a druid than a cleric, and that the guy piddling around with his monk who cant hit anything needs to get it together

Jack Mann
2007-08-14, 08:53 PM
"I am a giant bear that casts spells. I rule melee and force the fighter to carry my stuff when I'm not using it, since lord knows he'd only get in my way in a fight. What I can't rip apart physically I toss spells at, if I don't just use those spells to make myself even more powerful. And when I get tired, here's my companion, Commander Snugglepuff the Dire Lion."

Everyman
2007-08-14, 08:58 PM
I think Jack Mann just summed it all up.

Volug
2007-08-14, 08:59 PM
my thoughts exactly...

Reel On, Love
2007-08-14, 09:02 PM
At level 1, you can pick up a war-trained Riding Dog animal companion. Slap barding on it. It's now got more AC and HP than the fighter, plus it can trip with each hit. If you want, you can Shillelagh a quarterstaff and go to town yourself, but you're likely to have dumped your physical stats, because...

At level 5, you get Wild Shape; at level 6, you get it twice per day and take Natural Spell. That means that you can be in Wild Shape all day and cast spells in it, making your physical stats (except CON) irrelevant.

Your animal companion keeps improving--the Crocodile can be a mean grappler at level 4, especially if you get to pick its feats and have it take Improved Grapple. At level 7, the Giant Crocodile is deadly in a grapple (and very good out of it), and the Brown Bear has three big attacks.

You get a variety of buffs for yourself and your animal companion (Barkskin, Bull's Strength, Greater Magic Fang), control spells (Entangle, Wall of Thorns, Control Winds), and you can summon even MORE allies, especially with the Augment Summoning feat. Summon Nature's Ally is better than Summon Monster. I mean, consider an 11th-level druid--he fires off a Summon Nature's Ally VI for a Dire Bear one round, and uses Animal Growth on it and his Dire Lion animal companion the next. The bear and lion proceed to make mincemeat of the enemy--even assuming that the druid (also in Dire Lion form) doesn't join in and help.

Oh, and you can heal in a pinch, too.

The druid is crazy powerful. Better melee than the melee classes, decent full spellcasting, lack of need for more stats (you only really need CON and WIS; INT can help); decent skills and skill points...

SilverClawShift
2007-08-14, 09:05 PM
9th level spellcasting = incredibly strong

That's with nothing else coming into play, and no other class features. For everything else, re-read The Jack Mann Post.

blackspeeker
2007-08-14, 09:09 PM
Wow, I dont get how they could have overlooked it, I was kind of green in the first place so when they said a cleric would be more useful I went with it. But shoot, I hadnt realized it could be that powerful.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-14, 09:14 PM
Wow, I dont get how they could have overlooked it, I was kind of green in the first place so when they said a cleric would be more useful I went with it. But shoot, I hadnt realized it could be that powerful.

Hey, it's okay--clerics are powerful, too. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are the major leagues.

For a cleric, you'll want the War domain (if core-only), Power Attack, maybe Expertise/Imp. Trip if you have the INT for it or Divine Might if you have CHA, and Quicken Spell at 9th. Scribe Scroll is actually not a bad choice.

At low levels, cast Divine Favor and wade into melee.
At mid-levels, cast Divine Power and wade into melee.
At slightly higher mid-levels, cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor and wade into melee. If you have a round before a big fight to prepare, cast Righteous Might, too.
At higher levels, cast Quickened Divine Power + Righteous Might, with a Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
At level 17+, that's Quickened Divine Power + Miracle(emulate Giant Size or Bite of the Werebear), Quickened Divine Favor the next round.

Turcano
2007-08-14, 09:16 PM
Also, if you have access to MM3, the Fleshraker Dinosaur is an uber animal, both for wildshape and for an animal companion. On a charge, they pounce, trip, grapple, and poison. In one round. I imagine that a druid wildshaped as a Fleshraker Dinosaur with another one as a companion and summoned elementals in tow will bugger you with a cactus.

Orzel
2007-08-14, 09:16 PM
"I am a giant bear that casts spells. I rule melee and force the fighter to carry my stuff when I'm not using it, since lord knows he'd only get in my way in a fight. What I can't rip apart physically I toss spells at, if I don't just use those spells to make myself even more powerful. And when I get tired, here's my companion, Commander Snugglepuff the Dire Lion."

You forgot how few people can ever sneak up on me and and on the stealth missions I'm the last one attack since I'm a camouflaged rat. And I speak well.

blackspeeker
2007-08-14, 09:36 PM
Hey, it's okay--clerics are powerful, too. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are the major leagues.

For a cleric, you'll want the War domain (if core-only), Power Attack, maybe Expertise/Imp. Trip if you have the INT for it or Divine Might if you have CHA, and Quicken Spell at 9th. Scribe Scroll is actually not a bad choice.

At low levels, cast Divine Favor and wade into melee.
At mid-levels, cast Divine Power and wade into melee.
At slightly higher mid-levels, cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor and wade into melee. If you have a round before a big fight to prepare, cast Righteous Might, too.
At higher levels, cast Quickened Divine Power + Righteous Might, with a Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
At level 17+, that's Quickened Divine Power + Miracle(emulate Giant Size or Bite of the Werebear), Quickened Divine Favor the next round.

Well my cleric definately doesnt have the war domain, I wanted to be true neutral, none of those deities have it, but thank you guys, other than the fact that druids dont get resurrection there is no real reason they can fight this evidence. You all were real big helps here.

Cybren
2007-08-14, 09:37 PM
Hey, it's okay--clerics are powerful, too. Clerics, Druids, and Wizards are the major leagues.

For a cleric, you'll want the War domain (if core-only), Power Attack, maybe Expertise/Imp. Trip if you have the INT for it or Divine Might if you have CHA, and Quicken Spell at 9th. Scribe Scroll is actually not a bad choice.

At low levels, cast Divine Favor and wade into melee.
At mid-levels, cast Divine Power and wade into melee.
At slightly higher mid-levels, cast Divine Power and Quickened Divine Favor and wade into melee. If you have a round before a big fight to prepare, cast Righteous Might, too.
At higher levels, cast Quickened Divine Power + Righteous Might, with a Quickened Divine Favor the next round.
At level 17+, that's Quickened Divine Power + Miracle(emulate Giant Size or Bite of the Werebear), Quickened Divine Favor the next round.

The war domain isn't that great. You'll want a domain that gives you access to some good special abilities and spells. Travel, trickery, or luck, for example. Martial weapons aren't that important, A morningstar is a pretty solid weapon regardless. (good) Clerics can also spontaneously cast healing spells so that's more attractive but between rods and having a couple heals prepared it's not that important either.

AtomicKitKat
2007-08-14, 11:47 PM
Well my cleric definately doesnt have the war domain, I wanted to be true neutral, none of those deities have it, but thank you guys, other than the fact that druids dont get resurrection there is no real reason they can fight this evidence. You all were real big helps here.

You're kidding right? You can carry out Reincarnation cheese and just rack up 3*Infinity Wis/Int/Cha bonuses from aging, if you can find a way to pick say, a Half-Orc, or one of those races that dies of old age in 20-40 years. If you can convince your DM to allow True Reincarnation from Masters of the Wild/Defenders of the Faith(one of those 2), or can find it reprinted somewhere else, you get 2 rolls, which practically guarantees no sucky forms. Oh, and pick one of those Fatespinner/Luckstealer type abilities that lets you reroll dice. And find some way to get spells cast over you when you die(for example, if you tell Captain Snugglepuff to rip you to shreds the moment you hit the last age category).

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-14, 11:59 PM
The druid is a little more watered down in 3.0 core. There's no casting in wildshape, and your animal morphs are limited by more than hitdie.

In 3.5, however; a level 6 druid in Fleshraker morph is on par with a fighter of his level. That's without casting a single spell or taking a single feat (and not making constitution his dump stat). That's before bear's endurance, bull's strength, cat's grace, greater magic fang, barkskin, your animal companion, and a small, summoned horde of animal growthed dire weasels.

Vhaidara
2007-08-15, 12:03 AM
"I am a giant bear that casts spells. I rule melee and force the fighter to carry my stuff when I'm not using it, since lord knows he'd only get in my way in a fight. What I can't rip apart physically I toss spells at, if I don't just use those spells to make myself even more powerful. And when I get tired, here's my companion, Commander Snugglepuff the Dire Lion."

What he said, only I go for the Mster of Many forms. You can become a dragon with that.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 12:10 AM
What he said, only I go for the Mster of Many forms. You can become a dragon with that.

MoMF doesn't even compensate for what the buffs you stop getting when you take it can do for you--much less the rest of your spellcasting.
Skip it.

Vhaidara
2007-08-15, 12:13 AM
I'm just addicted to using dragons. I mean, come on, the three symbols of DnD are Magic Missle, Fireball, and Really Frickin' Big Dragons!

excrtd
2007-08-15, 12:21 AM
There should be a dragon wildshape feat somewhere if you want to use dragons. Although I believe that it requires being level 12 and there is some restriction on the size of the dragon or something like that.

Serpentine
2007-08-15, 12:26 AM
I don't understand why everyone thinks wildshape is so overpowered. It seems to me that by the time you're a high enough level to turn into something, any decently challenging opponent is tough enough to take that something out no trouble (exhibit A: individual party members vs. individual blackscale lizardfolk warriors. The rogue slaughtered his, knight just barely won, swashbuckler barely lost, and the druid was slaughtered). Natural spell improves things somewhat, but really, as long as they don't abuse it, who gives a damn? If you do, well, remove it from your campaign world or make it useable only at higher levels or under certain conditions or with certain spells or with training or... you get the idea.
Blackspeeker, why is power such a concern, anyway? If you have a concept or something you want to do, go with it. If it turns out your character is under or overpowered, compensate for it.

Vhaidara
2007-08-15, 12:29 AM
My uncle made it like Natural Spell was a spontaneus metamagic feat that increased the level by one.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 12:35 AM
I don't understand why everyone thinks wildshape is so overpowered. It seems to me that by the time you're a high enough level to turn into something, any decently challenging opponent is tough enough to take that something out no trouble (exhibit A: individual party members vs. individual blackscale lizardfolk warriors. The rogue slaughtered his, knight just barely won, swashbuckler barely lost, and the druid was slaughtered). Natural spell improves things somewhat, but really, as long as they don't abuse it, who gives a damn? If you do, well, remove it from your campaign world or make it useable only at higher levels or under certain conditions or with certain spells or with training or... you get the idea.
Blackspeeker, why is power such a concern, anyway? If you have a concept or something you want to do, go with it. If it turns out your character is under or overpowered, compensate for it.

Really? Your druid must be doing something wrong, or choosing the wrong battle morphs, or burning his spells on the wrong stuff. With the right morph, and the right buffs, you'll have more con than the barbarian, more strength than the fighter, and more dex than the rogue.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 12:40 AM
I don't understand why everyone thinks wildshape is so overpowered. It seems to me that by the time you're a high enough level to turn into something, any decently challenging opponent is tough enough to take that something out no trouble (exhibit A: individual party members vs. individual blackscale lizardfolk warriors. The rogue slaughtered his, knight just barely won, swashbuckler barely lost, and the druid was slaughtered). Natural spell improves things somewhat, but really, as long as they don't abuse it, who gives a damn? If you do, well, remove it from your campaign world or make it useable only at higher levels or under certain conditions or with certain spells or with training or... you get the idea.
Blackspeeker, why is power such a concern, anyway? If you have a concept or something you want to do, go with it. If it turns out your character is under or overpowered, compensate for it.

Foo', you crazy!

Basically, your druid was Doing It Wrong. Look at the brown bear. Add Greater Magic Fang. Add Bull's Strength in the first round of combat.
Then add a Giant Crocodile to grapple the druid's enemies, too.
And, oh yeah, the druid still has other spells. He can summon, say, a dire wolf to flank and trip his enemies. He can do damage or grapple. He can fight at range with Entangle and Produce Flame.

Wildshape is overpowered because it makes your physical stats irrelevant--except CON, since they errataed it. If a fighter wants to be good at fighting, he needs a high STR and an okay Dex and a good CON. The Druid just needs WIS and a decent CON and he's good to go. He can exert absolutely zero effort, and still be a perfectly acceptable frontliner. It gets a lot worse if he tries (look, ma--a Fleshraker!).
And, oh, yeah, it also grants special abilities like Pounce, Improved Grab, et cetera. And more natural attacks than the fighter gets normal ones, for most of its career. (And natural attacks aren't at iterative penalties, they're at a flat -5 after the first--or -2, if you take Multiattack).

And that's just when it starts. When the druid is turning into Dire Bears, casting Bite of the Werebear, has a Dire Lion animal companion, and proceeds to summon another Dire Bear or elephant and Animal Growth them and his lion, well, the results are obvious.

Vhaidara
2007-08-15, 12:42 AM
Don't forget the first really useful spell they get: Call Lightning.:smallamused:

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 12:45 AM
Don't forget the first really useful spell they get: Call Lightning.:smallamused:

What? No, Call Lightning sucks.

Vhaidara
2007-08-15, 12:52 AM
When they first get it, it rocks.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 12:53 AM
What? No, Call Lightning sucks.

Actually, it can be pretty nice if you went venerable gnome, and have to sit in the back and wait it out.

Serpentine
2007-08-15, 12:56 AM
That's the thing, though, isn't it? If she'd wanted to, she could've turned into a raptor, flown away and zapped its scales off. But the point of this battle was to gain their respect. She certainly certainly impressed them with her sudden transformation into a Big White Fuzzy Thing With Claws (what with polar bears not generally being found in the middle of steaming jungles, with one notable exception), but then she was cut to pieces. Note I'm not commenting on the class as a whole, but rather the wildshape ability specifically. Sure, she could've taken the "nah nah, can't catch me, and now you're dead!" route, but instead she went for the fun, challenging method. You remember fun, don't you? It's that thing what happens when you play games. Sure, she lost, but it was interesting and she learnt some things about her abilities. To be honest, I was expecting her to run away, cast a spell, run away, cast a spell etc. But this way was even better, and was certainly not evidence of the overpoweredness of druids when played for fun and with decent roleplaying. In fact, I think she even told her panther to sit it out so it wouldn't get hurt.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 12:57 AM
When they first get it, it rocks.

No, it really doesn't. 3d6 is 10.5 on average, with a save for half to boot! Hell, Produce Flame deals 8.5 average damage with no save on a ranged touch attack, and it's a level 1 spell.

You're better off tossing Greater Magic Fang onto your animal companion than casting Call Lightning. If you've done that, try Plant Growth, and if that's not useful, convert it to Summon Nature's Ally III. That dire wolf or lion, especially with +4 STR/CON from Augment Summoning, is gonna do a lot more good than Call Lightning will.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 12:58 AM
No, it really doesn't. 3d6 is 10.5 on average, with a save for half to boot! Hell, Produce Flame deals 8.5 average damage with no save on a ranged touch attack, and it's a level 1 spell.

You're better off tossing Greater Magic Fang onto your animal companion than casting Call Lightning. If you've done that, try Plant Growth, and if that's not useful, convert it to Summon Nature's Ally III. That dire wolf or lion, especially with +4 STR/CON from Augment Summoning, is gonna do a lot more good than Call Lightning will.

Oh yeah, it's a 3rd level spell. I was thinking Produce Flame (which is much better).

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 12:59 AM
That's the thing, though, isn't it? If she'd wanted to, she could've turned into a raptor, flown away and zapped its scales off. But the point of this battle was to gain their respect. She certainly certainly impressed them with her sudden transformation into a Big White Fuzzy Thing With Claws (what with polar bears not generally being found in the middle of steaming jungles, with one notable exception), but then she was cut to pieces. Note I'm not commenting on the class as a whole, but rather the wildshape ability specifically. Sure, she could've taken the "nah nah, can't catch me, and now you're dead!" route, but instead she went for the fun, challenging method. You remember fun, don't you? It's that thing what happens when you play games. Sure, she lost, but it was interesting and she learnt some things about her abilities. To be honest, I was expecting her to run away, cast a spell, run away, cast a spell etc. But this way was even better, and was certainly not evidence of the overpoweredness of druids when played for fun and with decent roleplaying. In fact, I think she even told her panther to sit it out so it wouldn't get hurt.

Polar bear + some buffs = grapple king.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 01:01 AM
That's the thing, though, isn't it? If she'd wanted to, she could've turned into a raptor, flown away and zapped its scales off. But the point of this battle was to gain their respect. She certainly certainly impressed them with her sudden transformation into a Big White Fuzzy Thing With Claws (what with polar bears not generally being found in the middle of steaming jungles, with one notable exception), but then she was cut to pieces. Note I'm not commenting on the class as a whole, but rather the wildshape ability specifically. Sure, she could've taken the "nah nah, can't catch me, and now you're dead!" route, but instead she went for the fun, challenging method. You remember fun, don't you? It's that thing what happens when you play games. Sure, she lost, but it was interesting and she learnt some things about her abilities. To be honest, I was expecting her to run away, cast a spell, run away, cast a spell etc. But this way was even better, and was certainly not evidence of the overpoweredness of druids when played for fun and with decent roleplaying. In fact, I think she even told her panther to sit it out so it wouldn't get hurt.

I don't think you understand. If she was cut to pieces, she was doing it wrong. I'm not talking about "run away and throw lions at them", I'm talking about "buff up and eat their face". You're a bear--grapple them and eat their face. Cast, oh, Bull's Strength first, or get your animal companion to flank, or use Poison, and then either melee (if you've got more AB/damage) or grapple (if you don't). Or be a dire lion instead of a bear for a slightly better form.

Don't give me that "you remember fun, don't you?" crap. Quit pretending that people who understand game mechanics are Zomg Evil Munchkins Gasp. I'm suggesting doing exactly what you're talking about--only not sucking at it. And that involves choosing equipment that'll benefit you in Wild Shape, casting Greater Magic Fang on yourself a couple of times in the morning, having Barkskin up and running when you think it'll be helpful.

Serpentine
2007-08-15, 01:04 AM
I note that it's always argued that wildshape is overpowered on its own, yet its use is rarely mentioned without the accompaniment of magic (specifically, buffs). So which is it? Good by itself, or good only with added extras? (by the way, this is a genuine question, unlike my "fun" one, which admittedly I should've left out)

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 01:06 AM
I don't understand why everyone thinks wildshape is so overpowered. It seems to me that by the time you're a high enough level to turn into something, any decently challenging opponent is tough enough to take that something out no trouble (exhibit A: individual party members vs. individual blackscale lizardfolk warriors. The rogue slaughtered his, knight just barely won, swashbuckler barely lost, and the druid was slaughtered).

... That's kind of like saying "I don't see how epic-level spellcasters are overpowered! I was in a game with a level 30 wizard, and he was brutally mangled in almost every encounter (sure, he wore full plate, continually went unarmed, never cast or researched any spells, and charged directly at every enemy he saw, but that's the fun way to play)!"

EDIT: It's a very good ability by itself. It is crazy good with full spellcasting and an animal companion. We want to make our compare-and-contrast examples as obvious as possible, so we mostly show it with extras.

EDIT EDIT: And your avatar swap gave me a nice case of cognitive dissonance when I finally looked at your name, by the way. Weird.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 01:10 AM
I note that it's always argued that wildshape is overpowered on its own, yet its use is rarely mentioned without the accompaniment of magic (specifically, buffs). So which is it? Good by itself, or good only with added extras?

Class features don't exist in isolation. If the only thing a class had going for it was Wildshape, it'd be fine--even weak, due to Wild Shape's limitations.
Fundamental class features like spellcasting are not "added extras", they're part and parcel of what makes the druid powerful. Casting Greater Magic Fang, which lasts for hours, on your bite and claws in the morning isn't some kind of advanced tactics or mystical powergaming technique, it's common sense. Casting Bull's Strength at the start of a fight isn't terribly complex, either.
And picking equipment that'll benefit you in Wild Shape doesn't even have anything to do with "added extras"--everyone should pick their equipment sensibly.

Wild Shape is so good for druids because it makes them powerful melee characters--a druid, with equipment set up for Wild Shape and no buffs, could take on a fighter or barbarian and do pretty well, especially if he picks his forms right; check that polar bear's grapple score, and hey, it has improved grab, and god forbid the druid took Improved Grapple--and it does so with absolutely no effort on their parts.
If they do put in a little effort--a few basic buffs--then it becomes scary. So, yeah, it's good on its own--it's "uber" when combined with the rest of the druid.
And on top of that, druids get full spellcasting. And an animal companion, which they can buff, too.

horseboy
2007-08-15, 01:17 AM
I note that it's always argued that wildshape is overpowered on its own, yet its use is rarely mentioned without the accompaniment of magic (specifically, buffs). So which is it? Good by itself, or good only with added extras? (by the way, this is a genuine question, unlike my "fun" one, which admittedly I should've left out)

I think it's considered the "straw that broke the camel's back". Personally I've not dabbled with a druid over 5th, as they were really bored with the campaign and wanted me to run something since I had just gotten back. But yeah, I totally went with the 'Steve Irwin' druid. Had a python with that feat that compensates for the -to the level, was going to use "raptor" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dinosaur.htm#deinonychus) as my base wildshape form.

Tor the Fallen
2007-08-15, 01:30 AM
I note that it's always argued that wildshape is overpowered on its own, yet its use is rarely mentioned without the accompaniment of magic (specifically, buffs). So which is it? Good by itself, or good only with added extras? (by the way, this is a genuine question, unlike my "fun" one, which admittedly I should've left out)

Yeah, they can be quite good on their own, so long as you choose morphs to target your opponents weaknesses. Go big and heavy to outgrapple enemy fighters (stuff that's carrying a sword and is medium size). Go fast and deadly with something that has poison to target enemy rogues/casters.

Course, if they're big and heavy, either buff, or switch to flinging spells. An entangle + something that can fly and hit works pretty good.

WhiteHarness
2007-08-15, 04:33 AM
The Druid class is so disgustingly powerful that it ruins the game, IMO. I ban druids in games I run. If you want to play a nature-hippy-granola-person, just make a cleric of a nature deity.

Overlard
2007-08-15, 04:46 AM
The Druid class is so disgustingly powerful that it ruins the game, IMO. I ban druids in games I run. If you want to play a nature-hippy-granola-person, just make a cleric of a nature deity.
Replacing a druid with clerics on a power-level basis is kinda like insisting wizards are too powerful and replacing them with archivists in pointy hats. Clerics are as powerful as druids, they have better spells to make up for the lack of wildshape.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 04:59 AM
Replacing a druid with clerics on a power-level basis is kinda like insisting wizards are too powerful and replacing them with archivists in pointy hats. Clerics are as powerful as druids, they have better spells to make up for the lack of wildshape.

Ehhh. The Spell Compendium gives Druids Greater Whirlwind at 9th, plus some of the best buffs in the game: Bite of the Weretiger/bear, Tortoise Shell, Owl's Insight, Fires of Purity...besides Divine Power, all they're missing is Greater Blink, really.
At level 17, clerics can use Miracle to emulate Giant Size (Wu Jen 7) and probably pull ahead--but then, the druid gets Shapechange.

Leon
2007-08-15, 07:12 AM
The Druid class is so disgustingly powerful that it ruins the game, IMO. I ban druids in games I run. If you want to play a nature-hippy-granola-person, just make a cleric of a nature deity.

Except that a Cleric lacks a large array of the druids cool spells

Do you ban them for Wildshape, Summons, Companion or any of them?

Ikkitosen
2007-08-15, 08:33 AM
What I dislike is the PHBII option that downgrades your wildshape (ok) but then also costs you your animal companion! I mean, sure, nerf wildshape, but don't expect your players to choose to have it nerfed and lose their animal buddy!

Stephen_E
2007-08-15, 09:07 AM
What I dislike is the PHBII option that downgrades your wildshape (ok) but then also costs you your animal companion! I mean, sure, nerf wildshape, but don't expect your players to choose to have it nerfed and lose their animal buddy!

What the!

The only reason I play Druids is for the Animal Companion.

Stephen

Charity
2007-08-15, 09:16 AM
I have still yet to play a druid, and I've been playing the game for... well ever really. In 1st/2nd ed they were naff on a stick, i don't think I've ever quite got over that... One day I might find out what all the fuss is about.

The PHB II has qute a few oddities in it's alternative classes, though I still quite like it.

Overlard
2007-08-15, 09:55 AM
What the!

The only reason I play Druids is for the Animal Companion.

Stephen
Yeah. I was tempted to try the alternative feature, but then realised that it eliminates animal companions and casting while transformed. Sod that.

Ikkitosen
2007-08-15, 09:57 AM
I have still yet to play a druid, and I've been playing the game for... well ever really. In 1st/2nd ed they were naff on a stick, i don't think I've ever quite got over that... One day I might find out what all the fuss is about.

The PHB II has qute a few oddities in it's alternative classes, though I still quite like it.

I considered a druid for your 3.0 game, but 3.0 animal companions were uber-broken, and I'm not that cruel ;)

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 10:02 AM
Yeah. I was tempted to try the alternative feature, but then realised that it eliminates animal companions and casting while transformed. Sod that.

That's why that alternative is popular... it downgrades a druid to a more reasonable level, by eliminating their cheese with Animal Companions and Wild Shape.

Droodle
2007-08-15, 10:10 AM
That's why that alternative is popular... it downgrades a druid to a more reasonable level, by eliminating their cheese with Animal Companions and Wild Shape.Which is why DM's love it. Most players, on the other hand, aren't going to choose to nerf themselves that severely.....especially when John is building ClericZilla, Carol is building Batman, and Eric is playing a gestalt Warblade/Beguiler (he gets to be Gestalt because he slipped the DM a 20).

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-15, 11:28 AM
OK,

druids are a great class - they have so much stuff which they can use and so many possibilities to specialise, it is really well done. Also fluff-wise.

But are they really so crazily powerful? Think about the following:

- druids are a d8, medium BAB class. They should NOT go into melee if they can help it. Their ranged spells and buff/support for the party is what they should usually do, and in emergency then can go polar bear and risk that grapple vs the mean enemy orc barbarian king (melee means you can get hit quite often, you know, and the druid has only so much healing capability).

- if I were to play a druid, I would definitely choose the smallest animal companion around to make it more difficult to hit, and also buff its AC. AND not continually send it into combat, but rather use it for scouting, guarding and providing occasional flanks. Probably I'd take the usual "big animal companion, buff to hell and back" approach only in duels or solo campaigns as a meat shield. If I care anything at all fluffwise for that companiaon I'd avoid melee for that poor critter as often as I could.
Note: the animal companion is WAY underpowered for its level from lvls 5-6 or so up. If it goes against the challenges the party faces, its death is way more probable than one of the pcs if it continually melees. At higher levels, there is ability damage flying around sometines, and losing INT means the animal companion is out also quite quickly.
Basically, the AC for melee is like a class ability that can be killed and then is lost for the rest of the adventure (since praying uninterrupted for 24 hours ot get one back can be tough at times...)

Apart from that (and the usual spellcasting backdraws): Yes, Druids are amazing.

- Giacomo

Leon
2007-08-15, 12:00 PM
Most players, on the other hand, aren't going to choose to nerf themselves that severely


Proud to be one of the few who does in that case - No Wildshape, Summoning or Companion

MrNexx
2007-08-15, 12:07 PM
Which is why DM's love it. Most players, on the other hand, aren't going to choose to nerf themselves that severely.....especially when John is building ClericZilla, Carol is building Batman, and Eric is playing a gestalt Warblade/Beguiler (he gets to be Gestalt because he slipped the DM a 20).

Which is why, IMO, the DM should be able to say "We're using this variant for Druids in our campaign. If you don't like it, don't play a druid."

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 01:18 PM
What I dislike is the PHBII option that downgrades your wildshape (ok) but then also costs you your animal companion! I mean, sure, nerf wildshape, but don't expect your players to choose to have it nerfed and lose their animal buddy!
The animal companion gets dropped because the Shapeshifting is availible from level 1. A war-trained riding dog is already as good or better a tank than the fighter at level 1--add shapeshift's melee capabilities to the druid, too, and they become way too good at low levels.



OK,

druids are a great class - they have so much stuff which they can use and so many possibilities to specialise, it is really well done. Also fluff-wise.

But are they really so crazily powerful? Think about the following:
Yeah. Yeah, they really are that crazily powerful.


- druids are a d8, medium BAB class. They should NOT go into melee if they can help it. Their ranged spells and buff/support for the party is what they should usually do, and in emergency then can go polar bear and risk that grapple vs the mean enemy orc barbarian king (melee means you can get hit quite often, you know, and the druid has only so much healing capability).
You're kidding me, right? Medium BAB is easily balanced out by over-the-top STR scores, and d8 is one HP per level less than d10--plus druids will have great CON scores, since, hey, WIS and CON is all they need. Their primary attack is going to be at a somewhat lower AB, but easily enough to hit monsters; their third+ attacks will be better than the last iterative attack of the full BAB types--much better, if they take Multiattack. Magic weapons are easily balanced in AB by the druid's ability to cast Greater Magic Fang. And, oh yeah--they have at least three attacks, going up to, say, five, and get Pounce or Improved Grab along with other more minor goodies.
And then we have crap like Bite of the Werebear. (Personal, incidentally.)
Buffing the party?! Yeah, sure, if the party are all Animal-typed.
Take it from someone who's played melee druids--you do just fine, as long as you prioritize AC (lesser rod of extend, potions of Mage Armor or Mage Armor for a friend) in the mid-levels--and prioritizing it (i.e. Monk's Belt) can get you great results. I don't really have any qualms about telling you that the druid I built to fight you has 32 AC at level 11, and that's a core-only build using no custom (i.e. 2x price for slotless) items. That's significantly higher than the mid-20s AC you generally have as a tank.

Oh, and for the record? Psychic Warriors--a good tank class, on a level with the ToB--are d8 and 3/4 BAB, too.


- if I were to play a druid, I would definitely choose the smallest animal companion around to make it more difficult to hit, and also buff its AC. AND not continually send it into combat, but rather use it for scouting, guarding and providing occasional flanks. Probably I'd take the usual "big animal companion, buff to hell and back" approach only in duels or solo campaigns as a meat shield. If I care anything at all fluffwise for that companiaon I'd avoid melee for that poor critter as often as I could.
Again, wow, no. For example, take a look at the Ape at level 4. High strength, three attacks... it'll do just fine for itself in melee. At level 7, try the Giant Crocodile and its huge grapple score.
A druid is just fine with endangering HUMANS weaker than he is--like, say, the monk in his party--by letting them get into melee. Doing so with the fanged, clawed killing machine that's, say, a dire bear? Most druids do not need to worry.
D&D Druids are not peace-loving hippies. They don't value the lives of animals over people (since if they're Good adventurers, they're probably out, y'know, helping people... and if they're not Good, justifying it is so very, very easy). They're not gonna have a problem letting their lion buddy pounce that hobgoblin.


Note: the animal companion is WAY underpowered for its level from lvls 5-6 or so up. If it goes against the challenges the party faces, its death is way more probable than one of the pcs if it continually melees. At higher levels, there is ability damage flying around sometines, and losing INT means the animal companion is out also quite quickly.
It really, really isn't.
I mean, c'mon, look at Animal Growth. And Share Spells. And look at the list--a dire tiger or dire bear companion is no slouch. Keep'em in Barkskin and Greater Magic Fangs, and they'll do just fine.
And while we're at it, animal companions become better grapplers than any PC with ease (and very little effort)--at level 7 the Giant Crocodile has a +21 grapple, and that's before giving it IUS/Imp. Grapple, the slight Animal Companion STR increases, STR-boosting spells or items, and, at level 9, Animal freakin' Growth. And, oh yeah--barding, mithral or masterwork studded leather. No armor check penalty, no penalties of any kind to the companion, and a bunch of AC. Keep Barkskin on them, too (lesser rods of extend spell are cheap--or even pearls of power if you have to) and their AC can even be "respectable" rather than "just fine".


Basically, the AC for melee is like a class ability that can be killed and then is lost for the rest of the adventure (since praying uninterrupted for 24 hours ot get one back can be tough at times...)
And if a PC dies in melee (no more unlikely), getting them back is even more of a pain.


Apart from that (and the usual spellcasting backdraws): Yes, Druids are amazing.

- Giacomo
Spellcasting drawbacks? Spellcasting is great. Oh, no, you have to meditate for an hour to cast spells, boo-hoo-hoo. Because games consist of nothing other than enemies ambushing you in the wizard's Rope Trick during the exact time you pray (and then again while the wizard preps spells, and then again while the cleric prays at his appointed time later), and you can't do anything about this, right?

yango
2007-08-15, 01:36 PM
- druids are a d8, medium BAB class. They should NOT go into melee if they can help it. Their ranged spells and buff/support for the party is what they should usually do, and in emergency then can go polar bear and risk that grapple vs the mean enemy orc barbarian king (melee means you can get hit quite often, you know, and the druid has only so much healing capability).

Aside from the fact that huge strength makes up the attack bonus difference, and that their only other important stat other than Wis is Con...

There are A LOT of "tanking" classes that use d8 HD. Ranger, Cleric, Psychic Warrior, Duskblade, etc.


- if I were to play a druid, I would definitely choose the smallest animal companion around to make it more difficult to hit, and also buff its AC. AND not continually send it into combat, but rather use it for scouting, guarding and providing occasional flanks. Probably I'd take the usual "big animal companion, buff to hell and back" approach only in duels or solo campaigns as a meat shield. If I care anything at all fluffwise for that companiaon I'd avoid melee for that poor critter as often as I could.

So you'd choose an inferior animal companion on purpose to make the class "seem" balanced?


Note: the animal companion is WAY underpowered for its level from lvls 5-6 or so up. If it goes against the challenges the party faces, its death is way more probable than one of the pcs if it continually melees. At higher levels, there is ability damage flying around sometines, and losing INT means the animal companion is out also quite quickly.

Conveniently, level 5 is where you first get Wild Shape, meaning that the Animal Companion doesn't NEED to tank alone anymore. The combined fighting power between the Animal Companion and the Wild Shaped druid are enough. The Animal Companion has enough HP that unless the DM is TRYING to kill it in a single encounter, it won't die in a single encounter. And DM Bias does not count as a balancing factor for a class.


Apart from that (and the usual spellcasting backdraws): Yes, Druids are amazing.

Spellcasting DRAWBACKS? The only spellcasting drawback I see for druids is that Dispel Magic comes 2 levels later than for anyone else.

- Giacomo[/QUOTE]

Starbuck_II
2007-08-15, 01:58 PM
- druids are a d8, medium BAB class. They should NOT go into melee if they can help it. Their ranged spells and buff/support for the party is what they should usually do, and in emergency then can go polar bear and risk that grapple vs the mean enemy orc barbarian king (melee means you can get hit quite often, you know, and the druid has only so much healing capability).

Yet Clerics do. Yet, Monks do.
You do realize Wild Shape is easy.



- if I were to play a druid, I would definitely choose the smallest animal companion around to make it more difficult to hit, and also buff its AC. AND not continually send it into combat, but rather use it for scouting, guarding and providing occasional flanks. Probably I'd take the usual "big animal companion, buff to hell and back" approach only in duels or solo campaigns as a meat shield. If I care anything at all fluffwise for that companiaon I'd avoid melee for that poor critter as often as I could.

No, he is your friend. you buff your friends, don't you?

Small animal means weak physically. How does this help him?


Note: the animal companion is WAY underpowered for its level from lvls 5-6 or so up. If it goes against the challenges the party faces, its death is way more probable than one of the pcs if it continually melees. At higher levels, there is ability damage flying around sometines, and losing INT means the animal companion is out also quite quickly.

You have tiny animal companions with 18-19 AC at lervel 1? Because I do. It is called Master my Riding dog bsed on my real life dog (with barding added).

You do realize: its AC stay above a Fighters with minimal money used. So unless Fighters/warriors suck (you might think so); they won't be easy to kill.

Now, the offense may be weaker without buffs: but you can buff it, you are a Druid.

OverdrivePrime
2007-08-15, 02:24 PM
Something that puzzles me is how often people seem to game in campaigns that use the entire Monsters Manual as the world's beastiary. Does every campaign world have a savage land? Is every druid fresh out of training familiar with the anatomy of all animals on the planet?

I get around some of the ridiculously unbalanced junk in some of the Monster Manuals by tossing out the creatures that behave badly when a PC turns into one.
Dire Bears? Not a problem.
Fleshrakers? No. Get out of my house and send back the CDs I lent you.
War Trolls? If you're still in this basement by the time I finish loading my BFG, I'm not going to be responsible for my actions. (arcanists only)

Seriously, whoever let broken creatures like that through copy-editing without first asking themselves how they'd work with Polymorph and Wildshape should be issued a pink slip and then slapped with a week-old haddock.



Anyway, aside from wildshape combos that I can't imagine that Wizards intended, I'm a very big fan of the Druid class.
As for the combat buffs, I still think that the (non-casty) warriors still have the ability to shine in a party with a druid, up to around level 12 or so. The druid still has to blow a standard action to shift, then another to buff up, whereas the barbarian or fighter and dive right in, getting two rounds of battle in while the druid is trying to catch up to their animal companion's level of combat ability.

I'm sure there are druids out there who spend the whole game in their animal form and thus don't have to spend the first round shifting, but *shudder* I hope not. :smallconfused:

tainsouvra
2007-08-15, 02:28 PM
I note that it's always argued that wildshape is overpowered on its own, yet its use is rarely mentioned without the accompaniment of magic (specifically, buffs). So which is it? Good by itself, or good only with added extras? That's really a nonquestion though--the divine caster who wants to smash face is going to be buffing himself anyway (see the Cleric), so the presence of those buffs is already a given. Wildshape is the added benefit, so it's the focus of attention.


- druids are a d8, medium BAB class. They should NOT go into melee if they can help it. Go go CoDzilla? :smallconfused:

I don't believe you. They're devastating in melee, why wouldn't they go there?


I'm sure there are druids out there who spend the whole game in their animal form and thus don't have to spend the first round shifting, but *shudder* I hope not. :smallconfused: Something really funny...I thought that would be a fun concept when I started the game, a shapeshifter who spent very little time in human form--basically just when he was in a city. Come 3.5, it's the powergamers' choice. Just figures, eh?

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-15, 02:51 PM
Hi Reel On, Love and yango,

you are probably right about a druid's power in a duel. This is where an animal companion shines: it is only one encounter (so no need to worry about wasting it as long as you win), and it likely gets you the most prescious thing there is in duels: time. Even if, say, a great feat-combo fighter or raging barbarian smacks down the animal companion in two rounds, those are two rounds the druid has time to do spells unimpeded (if using some quickened versions, he could do four spells. Thus summon powerful creatures in 2 full round castings or do two maximised energy damage spells with 100+ damage). THAT is the power of the druid.

However in regular gameplay and a campaign, other issues come to the fore. It all depends on the party setup. As a full spellcaster, it is simply much more advantageous for the druid to focus on spells and simply use all the other nice stuff of his class abilities as a means to defend himself while casting. Why should he turn into a polar bear (standard action) and then charge and grapple an opponent? In those 2 rounds which he uses to defeat 1 enemy, he can do so much more with spells while being protected by the animal companion (remember, the shared spells extend only as long as the ac is within 5ft; this should tell you something about an ac's true role in play...)

When I said that I would choose an ac for defensive qualities, not for offensive qualities, I did so not to weaken my druid, but rather to free him for the really strong stuff he does. Polar bear grappling the enemy with buff spells? Yeah, do that stuff that the true meleers in the group can do 24/7 and waste prescious spell slots.

And a crocodile as an ac because of the cool grappling bonus? Highly campaign-specific, I dare say (it would be great in an ancient Egypt campaign, but the regular medieval high fantasy in moderate climate with WINTER months? Not so realistic).

Of course you can take a lot of enjoyment out of playing a zilla druid. And there may be plenty of groups and DMs who see this as the norm rather than an exception to the rule. My opinion, though, that this is ironically exactly what makes him weaker than he should be.

Similarly, the spellcasting drawbacks apparently are not for everyone's style of play. But I find it odd that many people say spellcasters are so great and never think about whether this may be due to them ignoring the many vulnerabilities casters have (hence my suggestion to increase defense for the druid, and not turn him into a melee monster if it is not absolutely necessary to do so).
Example in point: Rope trick is a simple 2nd level spell. By the time you have a group with characters turning into dire bears and summoning a dozen enlarged animals etc. you could well expect enemies think up some ways to stop the characters from re-learning spells, wouldn't you think? Or let me put it differently: when is your group going to attack the BBEG? When you think he is strongest? Or maybe when he has already used up some of his spellpower/resources for the day? Or maybe, boo-hoo-hoo try to attack him while he prays for 1 hour to regain spells? Unthinkable? Well...

- Giacomo

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-15, 02:53 PM
Go go CoDzilla? :smallconfused:

I don't believe you. They're devastating in melee, why wouldn't they go there?


Because CoDzilla leads to melee. Melee leads to damage. Damage leads to death and death leads to the dark side of being a pc (end of game).:smallsmile:

OK seriously now, melee is fun. And I guess all the Druidzilla players out there love it, as would I playing it. But it is more risky than being defensive and controlling the encounters with your full spelluser array of spells. So in a way, it is a TRAP! A lure away from your more powerful class abilities.

- Giacomo

yango
2007-08-15, 03:45 PM
However in regular gameplay and a campaign, other issues come to the fore. It all depends on the party setup. As a full spellcaster, it is simply much more advantageous for the druid to focus on spells and simply use all the other nice stuff of his class abilities as a means to defend himself while casting. Why should he turn into a polar bear (standard action) and then charge and grapple an opponent? In those 2 rounds which he uses to defeat 1 enemy, he can do so much more with spells while being protected by the animal companion (remember, the shared spells extend only as long as the ac is within 5ft; this should tell you something about an ac's true role in play...)

For one, it wouldn't take 2 rounds, because right from the start, Wild Shape has a long enough duration for you to be Wild Shaped effectively all the time.


When I said that I would choose an ac for defensive qualities, not for offensive qualities, I did so not to weaken my druid, but rather to free him for the really strong stuff he does. Polar bear grappling the enemy with buff spells? Yeah, do that stuff that the true meleers in the group can do 24/7 and waste prescious spell slots.

Read the duration line of Wild Shape. By level 7, you can stay Wild Shaped for 21 hours in a day. In a Dire Lion form, you can get more attacks than a fighter would get before level 11, at just as good of damage and to hit.


And a crocodile as an ac because of the cool grappling bonus? Highly campaign-specific, I dare say (it would be great in an ancient Egypt campaign, but the regular medieval high fantasy in moderate climate with WINTER months? Not so realistic).

A crocodile is a legitimate animal companion for a medieval high fantasy setting per the rules. DM fiat does not count as a balancing factor.


Example in point: Rope trick is a simple 2nd level spell. By the time you have a group with characters turning into dire bears and summoning a dozen enlarged animals etc. you could well expect enemies think up some ways to stop the characters from re-learning spells, wouldn't you think? Or let me put it differently: when is your group going to attack the BBEG? When you think he is strongest? Or maybe when he has already used up some of his spellpower/resources for the day? Or maybe, boo-hoo-hoo try to attack him while he prays for 1 hour to regain spells? Unthinkable? Well...

- Giacomo

Again, this is what rope trick is FOR. So long as the Wizard has ONE Rope Trick prepared, the whole party's spellcasting is effectively secure for the adventure. Unless you're assuming the BBEG will prevent the characters from sleeping 24/7, 7 days a week (which is unrealistic DMing of a BBEG), the Wizard WILL find SOME point to learn Rope Trick.

yango
2007-08-15, 03:46 PM
OK seriously now, melee is fun. And I guess all the Druidzilla players out there love it, as would I playing it. But it is more risky than being defensive and controlling the encounters with your full spelluser array of spells. So in a way, it is a TRAP! A lure away from your more powerful class abilities.

- Giacomo

Many of the strong spells on the Druid list are just as effective when cast before combat or just after combat. In that sense, you aren't losing combat effectiveness, because you can't really be casting buffs you already have cast.


Something that puzzles me is how often people seem to game in campaigns that use the entire Monsters Manual as the world's beastiary. Does every campaign world have a savage land? Is every druid fresh out of training familiar with the anatomy of all animals on the planet?

Knowledge(Nature) checks. The Wild Shape description says that the Druid must know what the creature is. On a fail, use the same rule for Wizards unsuccessfully scribing spells (can't try again until another Knowledge(Nature) rank is gained).

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-15, 04:17 PM
For one, it wouldn't take 2 rounds, because right from the start, Wild Shape has a long enough duration for you to be Wild Shaped effectively all the time.

But then you are an animal all the time. Technically, this could offer your problems when trying to communicate with the other pcs in the group and with npcs.


Read the duration line of Wild Shape. By level 7, you can stay Wild Shaped for 21 hours in a day. In a Dire Lion form, you can get more attacks than a fighter would get before level 11, at just as good of damage and to hit.

Er...I may be wrong here (darn morphing rules): aren't you keeping your BAB as a druid in your animal form? So, not more attacks than an fighter. You gain the animal's extraordinary attacks, but none of its feats (like multiattack).


A crocodile is a legitimate animal companion for a medieval high fantasy setting per the rules. DM fiat does not count as a balancing factor.

DM fiat? Here are some highlights: 20ft move only, so it slows down the group. A nuisance usually, a danger if the group wants to flee.
Environment listed is "Warm marshes". "These huge creatures usually live in salt water and can be more than 20 feet long."I guess there are penalties somewhere if you fight in an environment that you are not suited for (like the usual chill dungeons). Try to squeeze the 20ft animal (it covers technically a 15ft space, but its true length may be a problem sometimes) in a dungeon or hide it. If you are a druid, you may also get penalties with animal handling other animals, or with the mounts of the other pcs.
And while the rules do not specify this, there are some points at which you should as a player and DM resort to modern day biology and estimate that European winter to a giant crocodile will be full of horrors.


Again, this is what rope trick is FOR. So long as the Wizard has ONE Rope Trick prepared, the whole party's spellcasting is effectively secure for the adventure. Unless you're assuming the BBEG will prevent the characters from sleeping 24/7, 7 days a week (which is unrealistic DMing of a BBEG), the Wizard WILL find SOME point to learn Rope Trick.

A simply scout/spy shadowing the party is enough. This scout reports what he has seen ("and then the climbed the rope and simply vanished...") and the BBEG sends a DispelMagic-guy plus some of his minions to make life troublesome for the pcs. Finding SOME point in a week to learn rope trick is not an issue. But occasionally being unable to re-learn spells is.

- Giacomo

Draz74
2007-08-15, 04:29 PM
Er...I may be wrong here (darn morphing rules): aren't you keeping your BAB as a druid in your animal form? So, not more attacks than an fighter. You gain the animal's extraordinary attacks, but none of its feats (like multiattack).


You do keep your BAB, but creatures with multiple natural attacks need neither high BAB nor any particular feat in order to use all of their natural attacks on a full attack (or a Pounce). Multiattack makes your secondary natural attacks more accurate, but they can be used without it.

Ulzgoroth
2007-08-15, 06:47 PM
In fact, unless using an animal form with hands for Dire Ape with weapons cheese or for some reason unarmed striking, standard iterative attacks will never come up in conjunction with wildshape.

Stephen_E
2007-08-15, 07:18 PM
And while the rules do not specify this, there are some points at which you should as a player and DM resort to modern day biology and estimate that European winter to a giant crocodile will be full of horrors.


Endure Elements. A 1st level spell, lasts 24 hours, and your croc is comfortable in -50 to +140 farenheight.

I've got a feeling I've had the "Animal Companions dies so easy, and are so hard to replace, and spells are so hard to get back" argument with you twice before. I've definitely had it with someone twice before.

Stephen

Bosh
2007-08-15, 10:01 PM
Sir Giacomo: It seems that you constantly argue against the consensus opinion about class power on a whole lot of threads. Now druid ACTUAL power can vary wildly (due to poor tactics) but the consensus opinion about which classes are POTENTIALLY more powerful than others if optimal tacitcs exists for a reason, and argueing that druids aren't potentially a very powerful class is just silly.

Vonriel
2007-08-15, 10:29 PM
I think, in this case, he's arguing about how a druid is powerful in its own right, but to be so you have to forsake the rest of your party. Sure, it's great to be able to hit better and more often than the fighter, but what about the backline wizard who just got jumped by two rogues? You're on the front line, with your animal companion, and he's back there alone with two melee types.

It's great to theorize about how powerful a class is solo, but D&D is also a team-based game, and ignoring the rest of your party - while oftentimes leading to hilarious results - in this case might put you alone versus a whole lot more enemies than you can take.

excrtd
2007-08-15, 10:48 PM
I do not really see how going into combat would apply to druid power since presumably if you were a fighter or something you would be on the front lines and your wizard would be jumped by melee types just as much as he would be if you were a druid. Although as a druid you could send your animal companion to protect him when he gets attacked and still fight on the front lines thereby keeping the people you are fighting from following you back to help kill the wizard. You would theoretically also be more likely to spot someone sneaking around to kill the wizard due to high wisdom. And you would be able to heal the wizard if he was injured. Also since I think you usually get improved move speed in many wildshape forms you would be able to get back and help him more quickly than most other classes.

MeklorIlavator
2007-08-15, 10:50 PM
I think, in this case, he's arguing about how a druid is powerful in its own right, but to be so you have to forsake the rest of your party. Sure, it's great to be able to hit better and more often than the fighter, but what about the backline wizard who just got jumped by two rogues? You're on the front line, with your animal companion, and he's back there alone with two melee types.

It's great to theorize about how powerful a class is solo, but D&D is also a team-based game, and ignoring the rest of your party - while oftentimes leading to hilarious results - in this case might put you alone versus a whole lot more enemies than you can take.
That really depends on the battle field. Most battle fields are pretty small, so even if the druid is on the front lines, he may only be 20 feet from the wizard. The only time this really isn't true would be cases where you are fighting in a long hallway, but in that case you can either set up Battlefield control to shut down one end of the corridor, or clear out everything behind you. Also, even if the druid is right next to the wizard(a bad idea because of area of effect/ battlefield control spells), he wouldn't be able to do anything about the rouges till next turn, and by then a wizards could very well be dead. The above situation could happen, but your fighter could also die because he's taking all the damage(which he would if he's the only melee combatant), or some mooks could get past him and charge the weak wizard. In those situations you would be kicking yourself that you hung back to protect the weak ones instead of helping hold the line.

Vonriel
2007-08-15, 11:05 PM
excrtd's post - while I'm not sure whether or not it was meant to contradict or help mine - has a point or two. If you're in some streets, or a cavern, there is a decent enough chance that you can be set upon by enemies from behind, and in these cases simply blocking off part of the battlefield will do nothing. If you're on the front line, the front line fighters are going to spread out and use you as part of it to create an AoO shield or what have you. If you leave to help the wizard in this hypothetical fight, you're putting a large hole in the front line and there's nothing stopping them from coming through. If you hang back by the wizard, you can set up a battlefield control spell before the additional baddies from behind get there, thus helping the frontline to hold, and then you can turn your attention to the additional baddies and use your animal companion and yourself to squish them, then head to the front or stay back and continue using spells just in case.

That is why you should stay back: Yes, it will still take a round for you to wildshape then help the wizard, but your battlefield control will still be in effect up front, helping the meleers, who also don't need to worry about the wizard going splat, because you in wildshape form and your animal companion are wreaking havoc on the highly squishy rogues who can't focus on the wizard for fear of you feasting on their delicious spleens.

excrtd
2007-08-15, 11:12 PM
I was just pointing out that either way someone will need to take care of the front lines and someone will need to guard the squishier classes until they can manage on their own so whether the druid does the frontlining and the fighter protects the wizard or vice versa makes no real difference so long as they can get the job done.

Edit: Actually presuming that either class can fight in the front lines effectively the a fighter might be better sticking back to protect the wizard due to bow proficiency allowing some contribution to the fight while remaining on the back.

Edit: Actually you would want a knight to protect the wizard due to the knight's challenge actually keeping them from attacking said squishy class.

Vonriel
2007-08-15, 11:16 PM
I see. I tend to think that the druid makes a better caster-protector than a fighter, because the druid can still be very effective when it hangs back with the casters. A fighter, on the other hand, loses a good bit of his effectiveness in that role.

Edit for the inevitable: Except for the archery-based fighters, who can still hold up in melee due to high hps, but I still say do too poor of a job protecting the casters.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-16, 12:10 AM
Hi Reel On, Love and yango,

you are probably right about a druid's power in a duel. This is where an animal companion shines: it is only one encounter (so no need to worry about wasting it as long as you win), and it likely gets you the most prescious thing there is in duels: time. Even if, say, a great feat-combo fighter or raging barbarian smacks down the animal companion in two rounds, those are two rounds the druid has time to do spells unimpeded (if using some quickened versions, he could do four spells. Thus summon powerful creatures in 2 full round castings or do two maximised energy damage spells with 100+ damage). THAT is the power of the druid.
But the animal companion won't be smacked down in two rounds. It's TOUGH. Buffing the animal companion is generally better than summoning (Summon + Animal Growth is an exception, since the Animal Growth will affect both).
The animal companion is a solid melee force at all levels--at high ones, you need to give it a bit of gear and buff it, but then buffing it is a good idea and you need less gear as a druid.


However in regular gameplay and a campaign, other issues come to the fore. It all depends on the party setup. As a full spellcaster, it is simply much more advantageous for the druid to focus on spells and simply use all the other nice stuff of his class abilities as a means to defend himself while casting. Why should he turn into a polar bear (standard action) and then charge and grapple an opponent? In those 2 rounds which he uses to defeat 1 enemy, he can do so much more with spells while being protected by the animal companion (remember, the shared spells extend only as long as the ac is within 5ft; this should tell you something about an ac's true role in play...)
Because grappling can eliminate the enemy efficiently without using up spells? The druid is already a polar bear--Wild Shape lasts all day. If he doesn't want to be in Wild Shape all day, he has that option with CDiv--he takes Fast Wild Shape and does it as a move action.


When I said that I would choose an ac for defensive qualities, not for offensive qualities, I did so not to weaken my druid, but rather to free him for the really strong stuff he does. Polar bear grappling the enemy with buff spells? Yeah, do that stuff that the true meleers in the group can do 24/7 and waste prescious spell slots.
But able to melee well IS strong. The problem with melee characters isn't that melee is weak, it's fifty other things--as we can tell from the ToB; a Warblade isn't offensively stronger than a good Barbarian, he's just better in other ways. Outmeleeing the enemy isn't a bad idea (and the druid can do it 24/7, too--his important buffs, i.e. Greater Magic Fang, and rod-extended Barkskins, are long-term)--and the druid can get Pounce, lots of attacks, and thanks to his spellcasting be mobile in a way that fighters can't. Also, the druid can have a higher AC, and has a FAR better Will save, an equally good Fort save, protective spells...


And a crocodile as an ac because of the cool grappling bonus? Highly campaign-specific, I dare say (it would be great in an ancient Egypt campaign, but the regular medieval high fantasy in moderate climate with WINTER months? Not so realistic).
Endure Elements. Imported animal. And it's not like crocodiles are limited to Egypt--ask Florida.
The crocodile was an example. There are other strong animal companions.


Of course you can take a lot of enjoyment out of playing a zilla druid. And there may be plenty of groups and DMs who see this as the norm rather than an exception to the rule. My opinion, though, that this is ironically exactly what makes him weaker than he should be.
Of course not--melee is something the druid is very good at. His spell selection actually ain't that great, especially without the SpC, beyond his buffs--he has enough good spells at every level, but a lot of them are enhancers; his battlefield control isn't as good as the wizard's with a couple of exceptions, and casting damage spells is weaker than just going in and eating their face (and uses up more spell slots).


Similarly, the spellcasting drawbacks apparently are not for everyone's style of play. But I find it odd that many people say spellcasters are so great and never think about whether this may be due to them ignoring the many vulnerabilities casters have (hence my suggestion to increase defense for the druid, and not turn him into a melee monster if it is not absolutely necessary to do so).
No, you just vastly exaggerate these "vulnerabilities". For example, sure, the party may get distrupted in the morning, and the wizard can't prepare his spells--but the cleric already prayed at midnight, and the Druid will do so later. And just how often do your parties get disrupted? Do they never sleep or something? There's just no reasonable way to continuously screw up the party's sleep preparations. It's as ridiculous as every fight being in an antimagic field. What's more, the PCs are ADVENTURERS. They do not have a base of operations, they travel around a lot, and they generally take the fight to enemies who don't know they're coming, or at least don't know their exact location: they have the initiative, so to speak.


Example in point: Rope trick is a simple 2nd level spell. By the time you have a group with characters turning into dire bears and summoning a dozen enlarged animals etc. you could well expect enemies think up some ways to stop the characters from re-learning spells, wouldn't you think? Or let me put it differently: when is your group going to attack the BBEG? When you think he is strongest? Or maybe when he has already used up some of his spellpower/resources for the day? Or maybe, boo-hoo-hoo try to attack him while he prays for 1 hour to regain spells? Unthinkable? Well...

- Giacomo[/QUOTE]
You're four guys (and a bear), not a BBEG in his fortress. You're a lot harder to keep track of. What's more, you're typically on the offensive--and hiding is a lot easier than consistently finding four guys and a bear, who can fly and teleport around, at dusk and dawn.
And if the PCs have enemies who keep tracking them, expect the PCs to take countermeasures: Detect Scrying, for example, with its 24-hour duration.


But then you are an animal all the time. Technically, this could offer your problems when trying to communicate with the other pcs in the group and with npcs.
NPCs? You're not an animal when you're in town, if you want to do that. There are a number of ways to communicate with the PCs; the one that takes the least effort is Telepathic Bond, which can be permanencied. There's also a lower-level, single-person version in the SpC, and I'm pretty sure a couple of magic items allow it--heck, you can get telepathic communication with a first-level psionic power.


Er...I may be wrong here (darn morphing rules): aren't you keeping your BAB as a druid in your animal form? So, not more attacks than an fighter. You gain the animal's extraordinary attacks, but none of its feats (like multiattack).
You can take Multiattack. As your 9th level feat, usually. The point is, the Dire Lion-shaped druid gets three attacks, plus the extra two rakes on a charge or grapple, compared to the 9th-level fighter's two attacks.


DM fiat? Here are some highlights: 20ft move only, so it slows down the group. A nuisance usually, a danger if the group wants to flee.
Environment listed is "Warm marshes". "These huge creatures usually live in salt water and can be more than 20 feet long."I guess there are penalties somewhere if you fight in an environment that you are not suited for (like the usual chill dungeons). Try to squeeze the 20ft animal (it covers technically a 15ft space, but its true length may be a problem sometimes) in a dungeon or hide it. If you are a druid, you may also get penalties with animal handling other animals, or with the mounts of the other pcs.
"It's actually 20' long even though it says 15!" is DM Fiat. Crocodiles may sometimes be 20+' long--yours isn't. Or it curls its tail. 20' move speed is boosted to 30' by Longstrider... and isn't any less than dwarves or halflings, you know.


And while the rules do not specify this, there are some points at which you should as a player and DM resort to modern day biology and estimate that European winter to a giant crocodile will be full of horrors.
It's a giant crocodile, it could easily be hardier than the regular kind--but Endure Elements has already been mentioned.



A simply scout/spy shadowing the party is enough. This scout reports what he has seen ("and then the climbed the rope and simply vanished...") and the BBEG sends a DispelMagic-guy plus some of his minions to make life troublesome for the pcs. Finding SOME point in a week to learn rope trick is not an issue. But occasionally being unable to re-learn spells is.

- Giacomo
If the BBEG knows exactly where you are and where you're sleeping, he could just freaking come and kill you!
If the party has someone who can consistently shadow them--even though they're mobile, flying, teleporting, et cetera--and never get spotted (Druid Spot/Listen: it's really good), he could probably kill them all, too.
The point is, if an encounter disrupts someone's spell preparation once, it happens. They'll deal with it, and prepare at the next availible opportunity.
But there's just no way to do it on anything more than a very occasional basis without DM fiat saying "no, you don't get to prepare your spells."

Reel On, Love
2007-08-16, 12:13 AM
In fact, unless using an animal form with hands for Dire Ape with weapons cheese or for some reason unarmed striking, standard iterative attacks will never come up in conjunction with wildshape.

Kung fu BEAR.

horseboy
2007-08-16, 12:20 AM
NPCs? You're not an animal when you're in town, if you want to do that. There are a number of ways to communicate with the PCs; the one that takes the least effort is Telepathic Bond, which can be permanencied. There's also a lower-level, single-person version in the SpC, and I'm pretty sure a couple of magic items allow it--heck, you can get telepathic communication with a first-level psionic power.


To expound on this, it's not like druids are typically gregarious in nature. It's not like you're trading stories with the bard all day. You have the body of an animal, not the mind of one. If you're a polar bear and smell something coming you just grunt, hold up your paw. Point to your nose, hold two fingers up and point left. You smell 2 things coming from the left.

kjones
2007-08-16, 12:35 AM
"It's actually 20' long even though it says 15!" is DM Fiat. Crocodiles may sometimes be 20+' long--yours isn't. Or it curls its tail. 20' move speed is boosted to 30' by Longstrider... and isn't any less than dwarves or halflings, you know.


Or the cleric and the fighter wearing their full plate. Having a party that can only move 20' is a pain, but it's unlikely that this would be because of the crocodile.

Rachel Lorelei
2007-08-16, 12:40 AM
Or the cleric and the fighter wearing their full plate. Having a party that can only move 20' is a pain, but it's unlikely that this would be because of the crocodile.

It's too bad Fly is short-duration, because for some reason the image of a flying crocodile swooping down on someone nose-first, like a missile, is hilarious.

Thrawn183
2007-08-16, 12:44 AM
I lived in north-eastern North Carolina for 16 years. They found crocodiles in the swamp for the last few. We also had snow and ice in the winter. Amazing how the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-16, 02:15 AM
I lived in north-eastern North Carolina for 16 years. They found crocodiles in the swamp for the last few. We also had snow and ice in the winter. Amazing how the two aren't mutually exclusive.

Why then aren't crocodiles and indeed lizards/snakes quite common in Middle Europe, New England and Canada? Seriously, guys...

I am not denying that druids are very, very powerful. I said right from the start that they have such a great versatility and fluff that it is likely fun to play. But they cannot use all their abilities without problems, drawbacks etc as autowin buttons. No class can (well, maybe the 9th level spell casters...:smallbiggrin: )

The only thing I'm saying is this:
- if you play a druid with a GIANT crocodile as an ac and expect to never run into trouble because of this in the average European high fantasy campaign that the core rules are based on then I guess we have fundamentally differing opinions. Which would make it difficult in theory of us ever playing in a group with you as a DM and me as a player and the other way round.
- Please tell me how the druid would handle his large animal companion (irrespective of the kind, could be dire wolf or giant crocodile or saurus or whatever) in civilised environment? The usual answer is "the ac stays outside the city". But what if the druid and the group are withheld in the city? What happens then to the ac? Will it be hunted down by the local authorities once it is sighted and attacked farms for food? And what about npcs in the wilderness? The mounts the other pcs have? Face it. The ac is a cool and fluff-full class ability but like a paladin's mount or familiar it can be killed and separated from the pc, so it is no longer useful.
- similarly, this would be the case if you believe that the spellcaster restriction "spells PER DAY" is there to be ignored, that spellcasters automatically regain spells over night, that all their magic will always work (otherwise the party is "nerfed"?!?!), that a full round casting summoner (druid or otherwise) alyways will be undisturbed in his casting etc. There seems to be often the objection "ah, but the BBEG has no chance/will not do this/it's DM fiat if he did etc." And all that I'm saying is that it CAN happen and it SHOULD happen from time to time to keep suspense in the game. Why would then the designers have put in stuff like rope trick, spell mastery feat, book spell traps, MMM, atonement spells etc. if they believed it would never be an issue in a campaign?

- Giacomo

Reel On, Love
2007-08-16, 02:32 AM
Why then aren't crocodiles and indeed lizards/snakes quite common in Middle Europe, New England and Canada? Seriously, guys...
"Not Common" isn't the same as "they can't survive". And, again, Endure Elements.


I am not denying that druids are very, very powerful. I said right from the start that they have such a great versatility and fluff that it is likely fun to play. But they cannot use all their abilities without problems, drawbacks etc as autowin buttons. No class can (well, maybe the 9th level spell casters...:smallbiggrin: )
No one's saying they're auto-win buttons--just that you're blowing their "weaknesses" out of all proportion. They're tiny.


The only thing I'm saying is this:
- if you play a druid with a GIANT crocodile as an ac and expect to never run into trouble because of this in the average European high fantasy campaign that the core rules are based on then I guess we have fundamentally differing opinions. Which would make it difficult in theory of us ever playing in a group with you as a DM and me as a player and the other way round.
What kind of trouble? And keep in mind that "European" is total crap. None of the published settings are European--Greyhawk a little, fine, but Forgotten Realms? Eberron? No. It's a high fantasy campaign; with owlbears around, crocodiles are nothin'.


- Please tell me how the druid would handle his large animal companion (irrespective of the kind, could be dire wolf or giant crocodile or saurus or whatever) in civilised environment? The usual answer is "the ac stays outside the city". But what if the druid and the group are withheld in the city? What happens then to the ac? Will it be hunted down by the local authorities once it is sighted and attacked farms for food? And what about npcs in the wilderness? The mounts the other pcs have? Face it. The ac is a cool and fluff-full class ability but like a paladin's mount or familiar it can be killed and separated from the pc, so it is no longer useful.
It stays outside the city. Or it gets zapped with Reduce Animal (for most of the Large ones) and comes in. Or the Druid pays for special stabling for it (mundane services are dirt-cheap compared to gear), and uses Handle Animal and the tricks he taught it to make sure it behaves.
It's not going to go and attack farms for food. You can tell it to wait for you--that's a teachable Trick. Leave food with it if it can't scrounge. And, oh, yeah, the druid has Diplomacy so he's got the chance to convince people to take it in with him.

Listen to yourself. You're suggesting that because it's possible that the Druid will be inside the city and the animal companion outside for a few days, on rare occasions, the Animal Companion is useless.
That's really stretching. That may well even be intentionally dishonest, to yourself if no one else. It's "no longer useful"... while the druid is in the city, *maybe*, no guarantee... worst comes to worst? The druid just GETS ANOTHER. It's not a big deal. You're coming up with a really tenuous scenario, and then using it to say that the class feature doesn't add much to the druid's power.
It does. It adds a whole lot. Pretending it doesn't is disingenuous, and I'm not sure why you keep doing it--you're trying to do it any way you can. First you pretend that the animal companion shouldn't/won't melee, then that it's weak and dies a lot, now that it's useless because in a hypothetical situation the druid might not have it for a few days... why are you even doing this? You've got to know how false and/or tenuous that stuff is. Seeing that for yourself just takes playing a druid once.


- similarly, this would be the case if you believe that the spellcaster restriction "spells PER DAY" is there to be ignored, that spellcasters automatically regain spells over night, that all their magic will always work (otherwise the party is "nerfed"?!?!), that a full round casting summoner (druid or otherwise) alyways will be undisturbed in his casting etc. There seems to be often the objection "ah, but the BBEG has no chance/will not do this/it's DM fiat if he did etc." And all that I'm saying is that it CAN happen and it SHOULD happen from time to time to keep suspense in the game. Why would then the designers have put in stuff like rope trick, spell mastery feat, book spell traps, MMM, atonement spells etc. if they believed it would never be an issue in a campaign?

- Giacomo
Sigh.
No one's saying that all their magic will always work.
We're saying that spellcasters can reasonably expect to be able to spellcast on a very consistent basis. It's completely unreasonable for the party to be disrupted during spell preparation time for each caster every day, or even every other day, or every week (and that's neglecting the fact that the cleric and druid can and will get their spells back at the first opportunity even if their initial session is disturbed). In fact, this is only going to happen when the party is being actively hunted by someone who can track them despite their flight/teleport capabilities, who the party doesn't know is there, and who can figure out, detect, and deal with Rope Trick/Secret Shelter/etc... but CAN'T just kill them.
Those situations are so rare as to be irrelevant. They're something you might deal with once in a campaign, if that. If it happens every session, then yes, your DM is intentionally screwing you over--just like if every session contains a rust monster jumping on the Fighter, the DM is intentionally screwing him over.

And not only do you try to make this stuff seem like it should happen on a regular basis, you somehow manage to make yourself believe like it's a major weakness that negates the strengths of spellcasting. Sure, occasionally your SNAs will get disrupted. Does this mean that being able to spontaneously cast SNA isn't a powerful ability? Of COURSE not. Sure, it's possible for spellcasting to be disrupted (but very unlikely--see above). Does this weaken spellcasting to any significant degree? Of COURSE not.

Just because you create a hypothetical situation doesn't mean that it's reasonable for that to happen in the vast majority of games, much less happen on a regular basis.

Stephen_E
2007-08-16, 02:49 AM
It's too bad Fly is short-duration, because for some reason the image of a flying crocodile swooping down on someone nose-first, like a missile, is hilarious.

Arcane Heirophant, Overland Flight.
Have fun.:smallbiggrin:

Stephen

horseboy
2007-08-16, 02:51 AM
Why then aren't crocodiles and indeed lizards/snakes quite common in Middle Europe, New England and Canada? Seriously, guys...

There are rattle snakes in Canada. New England is paved over, but there are some copper heads running around. That's two of the three poisonous snakes in North America. Leaving only the water moccasins/cotton mouth.

Oh wait, forgot about the coral snake. That's half of NA's poison snakes they have.

And if it isn't poisonous, why mess with it?

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-16, 10:22 AM
What kind of trouble? And keep in mind that "European" is total crap. None of the published settings are European--Greyhawk a little, fine, but Forgotten Realms? Eberron? No. It's a high fantasy campaign; with owlbears around, crocodiles are nothin'.

OK, I must say, Reel On, Love (after having recovered from laughing a lot), that this really convinces me. Kudos to you for "with owlbears around, crocodiles are nothin'.!:smallbiggrin:


It stays outside the city. Or it gets zapped with Reduce Animal (for most of the Large ones) and comes in. Or the Druid pays for special stabling for it (mundane services are dirt-cheap compared to gear), and uses Handle Animal and the tricks he taught it to make sure it behaves.
It's not going to go and attack farms for food. You can tell it to wait for you--that's a teachable Trick. Leave food with it if it can't scrounge. And, oh, yeah, the druid has Diplomacy so he's got the chance to convince people to take it in with him.

OK.


Listen to yourself. You're suggesting that because it's possible that the Druid will be inside the city and the animal companion outside for a few days, on rare occasions, the Animal Companion is useless.That's really stretching. That may well even be intentionally dishonest, to yourself if no one else.

But before you said that the druid has to do some stuff to make life comfortable for his AC (raise diplomacy, cast reduce animal etc.) when going into a city. So it's not completely without problems apparently.


It's "no longer useful"... while the druid is in the city, *maybe*, no guarantee... worst comes to worst? The druid just GETS ANOTHER. It's not a big deal. You're coming up with a really tenuous scenario, and then using it to say that the class feature doesn't add much to the druid's power.

Tenous? OK, to get another ac first the druid will have to pray UNINTERRUPTED for 24 hours. Then the druid will need to train the animal to be of any use (about 1 WEEK per trick taught). Normally in an adventure, you do not have that much downtime, possibly not even between adventures.


It does. It adds a whole lot. Pretending it doesn't is disingenuous, and I'm not sure why you keep doing it--you're trying to do it any way you can. First you pretend that the animal companion shouldn't/won't melee, then that it's weak and dies a lot, now that it's useless because in a hypothetical situation the druid might not have it for a few days... why are you even doing this? You've got to know how false and/or tenuous that stuff is. Seeing that for yourself just takes playing a druid once.

Why am I doing this? Good question. When I first looked at this and the WoTC optimisation board it struck me as odd that all the time people were advocating certain tactics, styles, allegedly uber combinations of spellusers while forgetting - imo- the very basics the the game that are even there, RAW, and core.
I did not say that the ac is in danger when it won't melee. It is in constant danger only when it constantly does melees for the druid.
Meleeing and doing that also with the AC is fun for playing a druid and please, by all means do so. But maintaining that this tactics is superior and great and beats even the melee classes hands down (believe me or not, there are even posters out there who believe an ac is superior to a fighter!), this is something I cannot understand.


Sigh.
No one's saying that all their magic will always work.
We're saying that spellcasters can reasonably expect to be able to spellcast on a very consistent basis. It's completely unreasonable for the party to be disrupted during spell preparation time for each caster every day, or even every other day, or every week (and that's neglecting the fact that the cleric and druid can and will get their spells back at the first opportunity even if their initial session is disturbed). In fact, this is only going to happen when the party is being actively hunted by someone who can track them despite their flight/teleport capabilities, who the party doesn't know is there, and who can figure out, detect, and deal with Rope Trick/Secret Shelter/etc... but CAN'T just kill them.
Those situations are so rare as to be irrelevant. They're something you might deal with once in a campaign, if that. If it happens every session, then yes, your DM is intentionally screwing you over--just like if every session contains a rust monster jumping on the Fighter, the DM is intentionally screwing him over.

Wow. This...is...amazing. So rare as to be irrelevant? Apparently we cannot agree on how often problems for spellcasters are bound to occur. Let me list again what I believe should happen once in a while, and enough to balance the power of spellcasters with those who do not get spells on a regular basis:

- when refreshing spells (believe me, there is a reason that in core rules there are HARDLY any hours/level spells or even permanent spells - and their effects are quite subdued for the level). The way you describe it you should drop altogether the limit "spells per day" since your spellcasters obviously always have enough spells for the encounters during the day. Not very challenging, but you appear to believe this the case (or happen once in a whole campaign)
- when casting spells (a fighter's attack with his sword does not need a concentration check - heck there is a whole SKILL devoter for avoiding that to happen for spellcasters)
- when being robbed or captured (no more spell components and maybe no more holy symbol or spellbook. Why did the designers put in the spell mastery feat?)
- when being blocked to the source of your power (breaking religious taboos in the case of divine casters - why otherwise is there an atonement spell if it NEVER comes up?)


And not only do you try to make this stuff seem like it should happen on a regular basis, you somehow manage to make yourself believe like it's a major weakness that negates the strengths of spellcasting. Sure, occasionally your SNAs will get disrupted. Does this mean that being able to spontaneously cast SNA isn't a powerful ability? Of COURSE not. Sure, it's possible for spellcasting to be disrupted (but very unlikely--see above). Does this weaken spellcasting to any significant degree? Of COURSE not.

Then wizards are quite powerful at low levels and should go into melee- they will never be impaired in their spellcasting.


Just because you create a hypothetical situation doesn't mean that it's reasonable for that to happen in the vast majority of games, much less happen on a regular basis.

OK, I can't argue with that. Apparently we have widely differing views on how a challenging game should play out - and this is all right, I guess. Since there are a zillion ways to enjoy the game.
What brings out my resistance is simply if certain styles of play/tactics are considered superior when in fact they are dependent on a certain style of game play.

- Giacomo

Lapak
2007-08-16, 11:02 AM
Tenous? OK, to get another ac first the druid will have to pray UNINTERRUPTED for 24 hours. Then the druid will need to train the animal to be of any use (about 1 WEEK per trick taught). Normally in an adventure, you do not have that much downtime, possibly not even between adventures.To grab one item out of a long list of items that could be argued, this one is quite untrue. There are time-sensitive quests, of course, but many adventures have plenty of downtime and any reasonable group would allow for additional downtime between adventures. Unless your spellcasters never learn new spells, your item-creators never craft anything, and none of your characters have any non-adventuring roleplaying concerns. (Like a bard keeping his reputation alive by performing for a few weeks, or a high-level character spending some time on his lands making sure everything is running smoothly, and so on.) Heck, in my current campaign my (level 5-ish) characters spend weeks at a time traveling around from place to place; an additional day or two, even multiple weeks, of downtime while they're traveling would mean almost nothing in 75% of the quests that they've been on so far.

Stephen_E
2007-08-16, 11:21 AM
Tenous? OK, to get another ac first the druid will have to pray UNINTERRUPTED for 24 hours. Then the druid will need to train the animal to be of any use (about 1 WEEK per trick taught). Normally in an adventure, you do not have that much downtime, possibly not even between adventures.


Note: While the basic 3 tricks per Int pt must be taught, the bonus tricks are picked up with no time or training requirement (it's magic you know. :smallwink: )

I'll 2nd Lapak's point regarding downtime.
It's one of the things that annoys me so much about many camapigns.
Rush, rush, rush. If stopping for 24 hours, let alone a couple of weeks, is a problem, then that's a problem with the campaign.

And this leads to the other problem you get in "rush, rush" campaigns. You level up to fast in relation to game time. Those PC's lived x years getting to 1st level, and then in a few months or less gain 10 levels. Putting downtimes of weeks or months just makes the whole thing seem more reasonable and frankly a lot easy for roleplay purposes.

Stephen

yango
2007-08-16, 11:57 AM
Tenous? OK, to get another ac first the druid will have to pray UNINTERRUPTED for 24 hours. Then the druid will need to train the animal to be of any use (about 1 WEEK per trick taught). Normally in an adventure, you do not have that much downtime, possibly not even between adventures.

By the point he'd need to do this, the Wizard will need a comparable amount of time to copy new spells into their spellbook. If you're barring this amount of downtime, you're also barring the Wizard from learning new spells.



Wow. This...is...amazing. So rare as to be irrelevant? Apparently we cannot agree on how often problems for spellcasters are bound to occur. Let me list again what I believe should happen once in a while, and enough to balance the power of spellcasters with those who do not get spells on a regular basis:

- when refreshing spells (believe me, there is a reason that in core rules there are HARDLY any hours/level spells or even permanent spells - and their effects are quite subdued for the level). The way you describe it you should drop altogether the limit "spells per day" since your spellcasters obviously always have enough spells for the encounters during the day. Not very challenging, but you appear to believe this the case (or happen once in a whole campaign)

Or you could be slightly cautious, listen at doors, and tell the party "I think there's something in the next room, let me cast some buff spells." With Listen as a class skill and Wisdom as your prime stat, you have a good chance of hearing the enemy before they hear you.



- when casting spells (a fighter's attack with his sword does not need a concentration check - heck there is a whole SKILL devoter for avoiding that to happen for spellcasters)

Exactly, theres a skill for it. With Con as your 2nd highest attribute and Concentration with maxed ranks, failing them is pretty hard to do. There's also something called the "5-foot step" you should read about.


- when being robbed or captured (no more spell components and maybe no more holy symbol or spellbook. Why did the designers put in the spell mastery feat?)

Funny you mention spellbooks and holy symbols, as Druids don't need either.


- when being blocked to the source of your power (breaking religious taboos in the case of divine casters - why otherwise is there an atonement spell if it NEVER comes up?)

Are you saying you have players that regularly don't roleplay their alignment correctly?

tainsouvra
2007-08-16, 02:22 PM
Because CoDzilla leads to melee. Melee leads to damage. Damage leads to death and death leads to the dark side of being a pc (end of game).:smallsmile: The alternative, not entering melee and thus doing significantly less damage and and thus mitigating less damage, is worse. I don't buy your argument because it quite simply doesn't work out in practice--combat lasts until your opponents are defeated (run away, killed, surrender, whatever). Your opponents are defeated when you've sufficiently beaten the snot out of them to ensure that defeat. Your opponents have a certain chance to do a certain amount of damage to your party each round.

Staying back means you might take less damage, but the party as a whole takes more damage because you're not contributing as much as you could to making the fight shorter. Druidzilla makes the party take less damage over the course of an encounter, even though he takes some damage himself, because it dramatically reduces the number of rounds your opponents are fighting back.
OK seriously now, melee is fun. And I guess all the Druidzilla players out there love it, as would I playing it. But it is more risky than being defensive and controlling the encounters with your full spelluser array of spells. So in a way, it is a TRAP! A lure away from your more powerful class abilities. The only trap is one of a false dilemma--and you just fell right into it. Nothing stops a Druid from doing both of those at once, that's actually one of the main reasons why they're so powerful. They can pseudo-batman one round and chew face the next with hardly any effort.

leperkhaun
2007-08-16, 02:57 PM
- if you play a druid with a GIANT crocodile as an ac and expect to never run into trouble because of this in the average European high fantasy campaign that the core rules are based on then I guess we have fundamentally differing opinions. Which would make it difficult in theory of us ever playing in a group with you as a DM and me as a player and the other way round.

I see a druid walking around with an uncommon AC bieng no different than than some adventurer walking around with 200k+ worth of gear and practically shining with magic. If the people have a problem with a giant crocadile then how much of a problem is 5 level 15 characters going to be? Unless you are in a super high powered setting, the amount of power and wealth those characters have individually is shocking to the vast majority of people.

Will those people go "hey i want to pet it?" nope, but i cant imagine them reacting much friendlier to some mage they dont know who drips power from ever single thing they own.




- Please tell me how the druid would handle his large animal companion (irrespective of the kind, could be dire wolf or giant crocodile or saurus or whatever) in civilised environment? The usual answer is "the ac stays outside the city". But what if the druid and the group are withheld in the city? What happens then to the ac? Will it be hunted down by the local authorities once it is sighted and attacked farms for food? And what about npcs in the wilderness? The mounts the other pcs have? Face it. The ac is a cool and fluff-full class ability but like a paladin's mount or familiar it can be killed and separated from the pc, so it is no longer useful.

carry around a invis wand. Could the group be withheld from town? Sure, but most parties will have ways around that. Attacking farms for food? Na it gets part of that deer we killed in the woods. If NPC's in the wild are more conserned with a DRUID having a AC, how are they going to react to a powerfull group of adventerurs? Sure the AC can be seperated and killed, but the same is true of any PC in the group.

If the DM does that, he is being....not cool is a nice way of putting it.



- similarly, this would be the case if you believe that the spellcaster restriction "spells PER DAY" is there to be ignored, that spellcasters automatically regain spells over night, that all their magic will always work (otherwise the party is "nerfed"?!?!), that a full round casting summoner (druid or otherwise) alyways will be undisturbed in his casting etc. There seems to be often the objection "ah, but the BBEG has no chance/will not do this/it's DM fiat if he did etc." And all that I'm saying is that it CAN happen and it SHOULD happen from time to time to keep suspense in the game. Why would then the designers have put in stuff like rope trick, spell mastery feat, book spell traps, MMM, atonement spells etc. if they believed it would never be an issue in a campaign?

- Giacomo

Issues in the game are fine. I could see a AC dying, sometimes it happens. But i expect that in most games the AC wont die anymore than a PC normally would. If it is, thats the DM going out of his way. If during the climatic battle with Sir Mr. Bad Man & Co. Sir Mr. Bad Man realizes the AC is a threat and seeks to take it out.... thats understandable. The AC getting hunted down/seperated and killed every other adventure is not.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-16, 03:11 PM
Hi again,

a lot of the more recent posts I agree with. As a DM, I would certainly allow downtime for the players - in particular if they have skills, feats, background and acs to gain and train. DURING an adventure that is an entirely different matter. Not rushing players is one thing, but not challenging them with some time limits is another.

Possibly we differ not that much. The druid is outright powerful; in duel situations he is likely the strongest (there may be counterstrategies etc. but at face value he is plain powerful). In campaigns I tried to show that there are plenty of problems that a druid might encounter.

If you do not melee and then the party suffers, of course that would be a bad idea. Say, you are a druid in a party with a scholar-like bard, a sorcerer and a rogue. Of course then the role of first line defense falls to the druid and his ac. However, even then the group should avoid close melee combat at all costs and not wade into it for the fun of it (or they could, but also face the consequences).
In the door/listen example when the druid could buff - should the party rush in there and fight melee type vs the opponents witihn. Or does the druid or one of the other members of the party have something else, more efficient to deal with the situation? But probably for every situation I can tell you the druid has problems you have one where he shines.

Some points where I do not agree in detail...


By the point he'd need to do this, the Wizard will need a comparable amount of time to copy new spells into their spellbook. If you're barring this amount of downtime, you're also barring the Wizard from learning new spells.

Er...the wizard already receives 2 spells per level. Everything else is gravy and treasure.
A fighter gets his share of treasure and wishes to buy a full plate- but that is dependent on how big the town is where the party next gets. A cleric would love to exchange his newfound mace+2 (he already has one) against a strand of prayer beads in his church but fails to convince the bishop that he needs it more in his quest than the curch in town (failed diplomacy check). The wizard wishes to copy the 2 spells lightining bolt and levitate he gained from the bad cobold wizard in the ruins, but unfortunately the party has to run for their lives, flee on a ship (with no adequate equipment available), so the wizard has to wait until he can do it (possibly loses one of the scrolls in a shipwreck etc.).
This is called adventuring. Full of suspense and uncertainties. No DM is obliged to hand out the stuff you want. Builds are often done this way (wealth limit, choose the items) to make it easier for theoretic comparisons, especially at high levels. But there should not be any automatisms in gameplay, imo.


Or you could be slightly cautious, listen at doors, and tell the party "I think there's something in the next room, let me cast some buff spells." With Listen as a class skill and Wisdom as your prime stat, you have a good chance of hearing the enemy before they hear you.

Yes. But you still use spells for that encounter. If you are guaranteed to regain your spells overnight because no BBEG would ever think about disturbing a druid in his prescious hour of prayer or sleep, why then try to save spells and be efficient? Buff to your heart's content and make those players who play the classes with permanent combat abilities (feats etc) feel a bit superfluous.


Exactly, theres a skill for it. With Con as your 2nd highest attribute and Concentration with maxed ranks, failing them is pretty hard to do. There's also something called the "5-foot step" you should read about.

Oh, in melee it is pretty hard to make the conentration check. Several attacks may hit you, necessitating checks for all attacks (archers anyone?). Chargers can do an immense amount of damage in a readied charge, pushing the concentration DC into the low 60s. Ah, and there is something called "reach" and "several opponents" you should read about.


Funny you mention spellbooks and holy symbols, as Druids don't need either.

But they need material spell components from time to time. And my comment did not only refer to them, but spellusers in general.


Are you saying you have players that regularly don't roleplay their alignment correctly?

Alignment is tricky. Actually I hardly play with it, neither as DM nor player (except as in: demons and undead are evil, fairies and angels are good). But if someone wants to play a religious character this means restrictions that other (non-religious) characters do not have. But the rules are apparently not clear enough with stating out what standards should be followed, that it is very much open to everyone's interpretation. But simply ignoring it and on the other hand praising the great power of CoDzillas make little sense to me.

- Giacomo

tainsouvra
2007-08-16, 04:14 PM
Er...the wizard already receives 2 spells per level. Everything else is gravy and treasure. Copying spells from others' spellbooks is actually listed as one of the core features of the class--cutting it out is nontrivial in terms of its effect on the class, nor should it be stated as the designers' intent when they clearly state the opposite. I wouldn't say "gravy and treasure" of something that is given by the class' ability list, and a DM that goes out of his way to consistently deny the use of that ability is effectively using DM's privilege, not the game as written.

Lapak
2007-08-16, 04:18 PM
Hi again,

a lot of the more recent posts I agree with. As a DM, I would certainly allow downtime for the players - in particular if they have skills, feats, background and acs to gain and train. DURING an adventure that is an entirely different matter. Not rushing players is one thing, but not challenging them with some time limits is another.Sure, in some cases, you're under a strict time limit. But then I don't see your point. The fighter's magic weapon can be sundered mid-adventure. The caster's spellbooks and material component pouch may be destroyed or stolen. A bard may find all his musical instruments smashed and no summon instrument spells on hand. Within an adventure, any class can suffer a severe blow to its power, and all of the above are only slightly less likely than a druid's companion being killed. They're tough combatants who are likely to get healing; they're not supposed to or likely to die that often. The way you said it before made it seem like it was necessarily a long-term problem.
But probably for every situation I can tell you the druid has problems you have one where he shines.I'm still not sure you've come up with a situation where the druid, in particular, HAS a legitimate problem or vulnerability more than other classes. I'm not saying they don't exist, but all of the arguments you've presented have workarounds that range from low-effort to trivial.
Er...the wizard already receives 2 spells per level. Everything else is gravy and treasure.The great selling point of wizards is versatility. If you're telling me that most wizards in your campaign have 40 spells at 20th level, I'm going to guess not many people play wizards. Every PC wizard is, completely in-character, going to be seeking out new spells whenever possible and expecting to be able to try to add them to his repertoire.
*snip examples*
This is called adventuring. Full of suspense and uncertainties. No DM is obliged to hand out the stuff you want. Builds are often done this way (wealth limit, choose the items) to make it easier for theoretic comparisons, especially at high levels. But there should not be any automatisms in gameplay, imo.And I have no idea how any of this relates to druids. Yes, any class can be limited in what it can obtain if the DM says so - but the Druid is unusual in that it requires *more* DM fiat than usual to limit him rather than less. Saying that there are no suitable animals around in an environment that might be reasonable for them is near-absurd, and there are a wide variety of very good animal companion choices.

Yes. But you still use spells for that encounter. If you are guaranteed to regain your spells overnight because no BBEG would ever think about disturbing a druid in his prescious hour of prayer or sleep, why then try to save spells and be efficient? Buff to your heart's content and make those players who play the classes with permanent combat abilities (feats etc) feel a bit superfluous.This is one of the most commonly cited reasons that casters run roughshod over other classes in the late game - if they're NOT under a strict time limit, which they aren't all the time, they can make themselves pretty darn safe from interruption to regain spells.

PaladinBoy
2007-08-16, 06:55 PM
Meh. Personally, I think one player in my group, who plays a Druid, has greatly affected my opinion. He is not the most skilled player in our group, to put it mildly. He usually tries inventive uses of spells; usually a good idea, but his ideas usually aren't nearly as effective as he hopes, which means he does very little. His animal companion is a dire wolf; quite impressive at grappling, but the reasonably frequent urban adventures and/or adventures in areas not designed for Large size creatures mean that the animal companion is left behind as often as it comes along. And mostly, what he's managed with wildshape is to hide while he fires spells. People say that it doesn't take much intelligence to turn into something big and nasty, but not everyone has the time, inclination, or book to peruse the monster books looking for something to turn into. (While he does have a Monster Manual, it's his dad's AD&D version.)

I guess the whole point of this rambling is that I care a lot more about the player than the class. The druid might be easier to optimize than the fighter, but the druid still has weaknesses, which can be exploited by a clever opponent. And a stupid player can mess up and fail to contribute just like the fighter's player can. (Note: That is not meant to imply that the player in the example from my group is stupid.)

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-17, 03:41 AM
100% agreement to Paladin boy.


And I have no idea how any of this relates to druids. Yes, any class can be limited in what it can obtain if the DM says so - but the Druid is unusual in that it requires *more* DM fiat than usual to limit him rather than less. Saying that there are no suitable animals around in an environment that might be reasonable for them is near-absurd, and there are a wide variety of very good animal companion choices.


You see, as I indicated above the druid is very versatile due to his class features. For instance, he is not as vulnerable to counter-magic tactics as other spellcasting classes since he has his ac and higher skill points than all full casting classes (leaving the bard out here...)
Still, all of the time this "DM fiat" comes up which really baffles me. What some here call "DM fiat" I call a normal course of adventures.
If one of the group constantly has an animal around, this has of course advantages AND disadvantages. Is it so difficult to accept that?

Ah, and I overlooked one comment I wish to put into perspective:


Note: While the basic 3 tricks per Int pt must be taught, the bonus tricks are picked up with no time or training requirement (it's magic you know. :smallwink: )


If you go the typical druid & ac melee route, you can bet that druids will choose the larges ac available, so likely there will be 1, at best 2 bonus tricks. That is fairly limited (attack! That's it. Great...). And speak with animals spell only lasts for 1min/level. Even with such communication available, if you want your animal to do something it is normally not able to do ("go attack the enemy by flanking it with the rogue"), it takes a full round action.

- Giaocomo

excrtd
2007-08-17, 04:01 AM
This may be pertinent to the discussion.

From SRD

(A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)

Artemician
2007-08-17, 04:48 AM
Hi again,
Possibly we differ not that much. The fighter/mage/rogue/whatever is outright powerful; in duel situations he is likely the strongest (there may be counterstrategies etc. but at face value he is plain powerful). In campaigns I tried to show that there are plenty of problems that a fighter/mage/rogue/whatever might encounter.
- Giacomo

All classes have their weaknesses, and the druid is not exempt to this. However, the Druid is powerful precisely because he has few of these compared to other classes.

You can bring up situations where the Druid is disadvantaged/weakened, but the thing is, these sitautions apply equally to other classes as well. They should not be taken as a sign that the druid is weak.

Take the point about resting, for example. Of course, the party's rest can be disrupted. The Druid will then have no spells. However, is this a sign of the weakness of the Druid? Of course not! This problem will be equally pertinent to the other spellcasters as well, from the Wizard to the Cleric to the Beguiler.

Druids can be surprised. But so can everyone, from Fighters to Clerics to Rogues. In fact, the Druid is actually harder to surprise than most other people, due to the fact that he has Listen as a Class Skill, as well as High Wisdom. (As well as spells such as Guards and Wards, or Alarm). Again, this is not a way that the Druid is weak in.

The Druid can be disrupted or killed in melee. But so can every other class, such as the Cleric or the Rogue. The Druid is in fact, again, harder to disrupt than many, due to the assistance of his Animal Companion and the fact that Wild Shape lasts all day.

You constantly bring up the point that the Druid is not as proficient in Melee as the Fighter. He shouldn't be! A Fighter's job is to fight, of course he should be good at it. Many things are weaker than the Fighter in Melee, such as the Monk, the Battle Sorceror, or the Rogue. But the problem is, that a Druid can in fact, by selecting appropriate Wild Shape forms, equal the Fighter in melee.

I could go on. But the thing you have to understand, is that just because a class can be defeated, doesn't mean it's weak. By that logic, everything is weak, because the DM has the capability to destroy everything.

A Druid can cast, can Melee well and has a powerful Companion which can Melee decently. It has many strengths. And that is why it is strong.

Orzel
2007-08-17, 05:08 AM
The druid's weaknesses aren't clear cut like other classes. Its only real programmed weakness is that most of it's feature are about 80% as strong as the more specialized class in core when used alone. The issue is that they can meld their many features together to boost their power and and their features creep very well with each extra book allowed. This makes their 80% at everything into a sum of 320% at everything, negating the whole point. Their only real weaknesses are specific situations and ones that now class can avoid.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-17, 06:16 AM
This may be pertinent to the discussion.

From SRD

(A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.)

Ah, overlooked that - thanks!

@Artemician: you first go to lengths to saye everyone has weaknesses but then say somehow the druid has less and list a couple of advantages. Where is the logic in there? While I agree the druid is very powerful, is it so difficult to see from the class descriptions of the druid and what he can an can't do where his disadvantages could be? I'll try once more. Druid-specific disadvantages:

- he has medium BAB and unlike the cleric, he cannot boost those with divine power. So if he goes melee, the higher the level he does it, the more at a disadvantage he is. If in animal form, he can make up for most of the combat weakness (note that if he does not devote also the majority of his sparse feats for melee combat, he's way behind fighting classes even as an animal). But this strength is than bought at the cost of reduced communication with the party (until at very high levels stuff like telephatic bonds are an option).
- he has an animal companion which brings up difficulties of varying degrees (from the local farmer to the banquet of the king) with almost any social/npc situation.
- he has more religious taboos than a cleric (one tricky thing is the "do not teach druidic language")
- weapons and armour proficiencies are the worst of the medium BAB classes (excepting the monk, who has other non-magic stuff to make up for it in combat), although playing an elf druid will provide the best ranged weapon the game.

Ach, with 4th edition upon us soon, all of this may be obsolete, anyhow.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Artemician
2007-08-17, 06:39 AM
Ah, overlooked that - thanks!

@Artemician: you first go to lengths to saye everyone has weaknesses but then say somehow the druid has less and list a couple of advantages. Where is the logic in there? While I agree the druid is very powerful, is it so difficult to see from the class descriptions of the druid and what he can an can't do where his disadvantages could be? I'll try once more. Druid-specific disadvantages:


I listed how the disadvantages you gave for the druid applied to everyone, so as to show that they really aren't disadvantages at all, because they apply to everyone, really. I say that they apply to the Druid less.. because well, they do. The Druid is harder to surprise than most, harder to kill than most, fights better than most, etc. While being a jack-of-all-trades is not really useful in D&D, the Druid is an exception to this rule because, unlike classes like the Monk, he does all of these well, not merely adequately.

Now.. on to these Druid-specific weaknesses you bring up.



- he has medium BAB and unlike the cleric, he cannot boost those with divine power. So if he goes melee, the higher the level he does it, the more at a disadvantage he is. If in animal form, he can make up for most of the combat weakness (note that if he does not devote also the majority of his sparse feats for melee combat, he's way behind fighting classes even as an animal). But this strength is than bought at the cost of reduced communication with the party (until at very high levels stuff like telephatic bonds are an option).


It's not true that the Druid is actually that inferior in fighting to a Fighter, simply due to having 3/4 Bab. In reality, getting that one extra attack does not really make that much of a difference in the long run, as you'll need a Natural 20 to hit things with that kind of Attack Bonus anyway. But as for Raw Base Attack Bonus, the higher strength of the Wild Shape form helps to alleviate that.

As for the communication thing, that IS a problem with Wild Shape, I grant you that. However, the Druid's power does not merely stem from that one class feature, and while not being able to talk is a weakness of sorts, Druids have other tricks to cover their bases.


- he has an animal companion which brings up difficulties of varying degrees (from the local farmer to the banquet of the king) with almost any social/npc situation.


Druids do not necessarily have to pick the most Hulking and Powerful animal companion, if it gets in the way all the time. While Animal Companions are extremely powerful, a Druid can get by perfectly well without one, due to his Wild Shape and his Spells. An advanced Eagle is a perfectly serviceable companion, as is a War Dog or an Owl. Plus, I would think that these villagers and kings would respect the guy with the big beastie on his side, dontchaknow?



- he has more religious taboos than a cleric (one tricky thing is the "do not teach druidic language")


I don't really see how it's that much more religious than the cleric, the Code of Conduct is the same (Revere what you worship, and don't change your Alignment). The only difference is the Druidic Language thing you brought up. And I don't really think that will really come up in game, mind you.



- weapons and armour proficiencies are the worst of the medium BAB classes (excepting the monk, who has other non-magic stuff to make up for it in combat), although playing an elf druid will provide the best ranged weapon the game.

Ah.. but the thing is, if a Druid wants to bump some uglies, he doesn't do it with Scimitars, or Maces or whatever. He turns into something big and kills it with Natural Weapons. So, it's not really that big of a weakness.



Ach, with 4th edition upon us soon, all of this may be obsolete, anyhow.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

True, true. Although there are still several months before the Books are actually released.. so we'll just have to wait and see.:smalltongue:

leperkhaun
2007-08-17, 07:50 AM
Well as to the druid armor thing, Dragon Hide isnt very expensive in game terms. A full plate set costs just over 3 grand. In a low powered setting or in a small town i dont expect it to be avalible, but in the large cities i would.

yango
2007-08-17, 08:32 AM
- he has medium BAB and unlike the cleric, he cannot boost those with divine power. So if he goes melee, the higher the level he does it, the more at a disadvantage he is. If in animal form, he can make up for most of the combat weakness (note that if he does not devote also the majority of his sparse feats for melee combat, he's way behind fighting classes even as an animal). But this strength is than bought at the cost of reduced communication with the party (until at very high levels stuff like telephatic bonds are an option).

He doesn't need feats for melee combat. To give an example:
A Dire lion's 2 main attacks are made at a +12 bonus. This is a form he gets at level 8. A fighter has a +8/+3 BAB at that point, and would need 18 Strength to match the highest attack. However, his 2nd attack is significantly lower in attack bonus. If that weren't enough, the Dire Lion gets an additional bite attack that can start a grapple as a free action, and a FURTHER 2 rakes at +11 on a charge. Since the Dire Lion has higher Strength than the fighter, each attack will do more damage than the fighters's individual attacks. Even if the fighter is focused/specialized, he can't match this damage output.


- he has an animal companion which brings up difficulties of varying degrees (from the local farmer to the banquet of the king) with almost any social/npc situation.

See, if druids are a regular appearance in the D&D world, then shouldn't animal companions be a regular appearance too?


- he has more religious taboos than a cleric (one tricky thing is the "do not teach druidic language")

Wait, you've had a problem with "do not teach druidic language"?


- weapons and armour proficiencies are the worst of the medium BAB classes (excepting the monk, who has other non-magic stuff to make up for it in combat), although playing an elf druid will provide the best ranged weapon the game.

Negated by the fact that weapons/armor are almost nonfunctional all the time anyway, and overcome by very good natural armor/natural attacks.

leperkhaun
2007-08-17, 08:58 AM
Negated by the fact that weapons/armor are almost nonfunctional all the time anyway, and overcome by very good natural armor/natural attacks.

To add to that the Wild (i think thats it) armor enchant makes it so you keep your armor when shifted.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-17, 09:34 AM
He doesn't need feats for melee combat. To give an example:
A Dire lion's 2 main attacks are made at a +12 bonus. This is a form he gets at level 8. A fighter has a +8/+3 BAB at that point, and would need 18 Strength to match the highest attack. However, his 2nd attack is significantly lower in attack bonus. If that weren't enough, the Dire Lion gets an additional bite attack that can start a grapple as a free action, and a FURTHER 2 rakes at +11 on a charge. Since the Dire Lion has higher Strength than the fighter, each attack will do more damage than the fighters's individual attacks. Even if the fighter is focused/specialized, he can't match this damage output.

Maybe I'm getting something wrong here - wildshape is based on polymorph which is in turn based on the alter self spell. The druid keeps his BAB in wildshape and only his STR and DEX are replaced (plus the natural/racial properties with the new form).
So in your example the druid dire lion would have +6 base plus his new STR modifier ? (darn, it's a bad example since in this case the druid's BAB is the same as that of the dire lion). Anyhow, the total bonus for attacking with either bite or claw is +12/+7 (BAB + STR, -1 size, no weapon focus claw of the lion since feats of the new form are not gained).
But not the three attacks of the lion, only the special extraordinary attacks like improved grab and pounce are gained by the druid in the lion form.
The fighter of 8th level at that point easily has a bonus that surpasses +12, and may have also even three attacks (when two-weapon fighting or rapid shot archer, which is where feats come in handy...), more hp and a better AC (the bread and butter of everyone wishing to go into melee). AND he has access to that great power attack feat which combined with a TH-Weapon works more damage wonders than even the dire lion druid can do. Plus, the fighter at least can communicate during combat...:smallbiggrin:


See, if druids are a regular appearance in the D&D world, then shouldn't animal companions be a regular appearance too?

This is actually a good point. It is highly campaign-specific (farmers worshippling the animal companion of the druid, druids run the celticl-like country and ac is considered holy, a no-city campaign etc.); however a large or even huge wild animal at the side of a druid likely always appears threatening.


Wait, you've had a problem with "do not teach druidic language"?

Why is the taboo in the rules otherwise if it is not expected to come up from time to time? You may not like it (I also think it is a stupid drawback) but it is there, meant to counterbalance in part the great versatility of the druid.
The druid could get tricked into teaching the language (a BBEG posing as a druid apprentice with disguise) or dominated to teach it. And teaching already starts with the first word, so it can happen quite fast (if the language is meant to be such a taboo-secret thing it is comparable to nuclear missile codes for your country that you are not supposed to betray. Revealing even one code for one silo constitutes then already betrayal). And no, it never happened in one of my campaigns or with me as a druid player yet. :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Arbitrarity
2007-08-17, 09:42 AM
Uhhh... Giamoco, I think you don't understand natural attacks.

Manufactured weapons, on a full attack, make an attack at AB X, at AB X-5, etc. Correct?

Natural weapons are different. Primary weapons make attacks at AB X. Secondary weapons make attacks at AB X-5, without multiattack. One attack per natural weapon. Therefore, as the lion has two claws (primary) and a bite (secondary), it attacks at 12/12/7, not including rakes on charge.

leperkhaun
2007-08-17, 09:49 AM
This is actually a good point. It is highly campaign-specific (farmers worshippling the animal companion of the druid, druids run the celticl-like country and ac is considered holy, a no-city campaign etc.); however a large or even huge wild animal at the side of a druid likely always appears threatening.
- Giacomo

i would say that a large or huge AC is no less threatening that a group of adventurers wearing massive amounts of magical gear, walking with a swagger of "been there done that, just try to take us on", and then you have that groups reputation.

If nothing else the party will walk around like they know what they are doing. A huge AC is a bit intimidating, but so is that mage with a staff of fire.

PirateMonk
2007-08-17, 10:34 AM
Why is the taboo in the rules otherwise if it is not expected to come up from time to time? You may not like it (I also think it is a stupid drawback) but it is there, meant to counterbalance in part the great versatility of the druid.
The druid could get tricked into teaching the language (a BBEG posing as a druid apprentice with disguise) or dominated to teach it. And teaching already starts with the first word, so it can happen quite fast (if the language is meant to be such a taboo-secret thing it is comparable to nuclear missile codes for your country that you are not supposed to betray. Revealing even one code for one silo constitutes then already betrayal). And no, it never happened in one of my campaigns or with me as a druid player yet. :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

This has been brought up before. If the BBEG manages to dominate the Druid despite Good Will progression and amazing wisdom, he will have FAR better things to do then ruin the druids class abilities. Killing him off quickly, for example, rather than waiting for him to atone and come back angrier than ever.

As for disguise, the Druid will probably either kindly direct the "apprentice" to a training area to learn Druidic while he gets on with stopping this BBEG that's on a rampage and is going to destroy the world, or ask for a demonstration of nature magic before teaching the secret language. It's just common sense.

yango
2007-08-17, 10:48 AM
Maybe I'm getting something wrong here - wildshape is based on polymorph which is in turn based on the alter self spell. The druid keeps his BAB in wildshape and only his STR and DEX are replaced (plus the natural/racial properties with the new form).
So in your example the druid dire lion would have +6 base plus his new STR modifier ? (darn, it's a bad example since in this case the druid's BAB is the same as that of the dire lion). Anyhow, the total bonus for attacking with either bite or claw is +12/+7 (BAB + STR, -1 size, no weapon focus claw of the lion since feats of the new form are not gained).
But not the three attacks of the lion, only the special extraordinary attacks like improved grab and pounce are gained by the druid in the lion form.
The fighter of 8th level at that point easily has a bonus that surpasses +12, and may have also even three attacks (when two-weapon fighting or rapid shot archer, which is where feats come in handy...), more hp and a better AC (the bread and butter of everyone wishing to go into melee). AND he has access to that great power attack feat which combined with a TH-Weapon works more damage wonders than even the dire lion druid can do. Plus, the fighter at least can communicate during combat...:smallbiggrin:

Wild Shape is not based on polymorph/alter self. It's based on the alternate form special ability, which states that you gain all natural attacks (both claws and the bite) and extraordinary special attacks (which the rakes are) of the new form.

You misunderstand natural attacks. The primary natural attack (in this case both claws) get the highest attack bonus, and iterative BAB doesn't play in at all. Secondary natural attacks are at a -5, or -2 if you have multiattack, which would be the Druid's 9th level feat. Its also important to know that they aren't at iterative -5s, like manufactured weapons, but at a flat penalty. This is already factored in since the Lion does not have Multiattack. All animals will have the same BAB as the druid, since animal monstrous hit dice give 3/4 BAB.

Fighter with above +12 on the first attack? Sure. Fighter that can beat +14/+14/+13/+13/+9 (charge bonus included) on a charge? Not likely.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-17, 11:35 AM
@leperkhaun: agree, a mage with a flaming staff could freak out the farmers even more than a dire lion.

@piratemonk: good points. You're correct. It is hard to see a BBEG trying to steal the class abilities off a druid rathern than simply using the same power to defeat him otherwise.

@arbitrarity&yango: thanks for clarifying the morphing rules here. I'm still a bit confused, though. So a druid of 12th level shaping into a dire lion gets the dire lion's BAB of +6 or his 12th level BAB of +9 in the dire lion form?
And according to the core rules, the wildshape class feature of the druid is based on polymorph. It may have been errata'ed since so it is based on "alternate form" - but I do not have the rules on that.

What if a fighter is turned into a monstrous humanoid (say, the typical war troll) with polymorph/polymorph any object. And he swings his greatsword+2 from his human form in one claw. Would he get his usual BAB and greatsword attacks on top of the natural attacks of the troll (bit, claw)? Appears odd to me.

- Giacomo

PirateMonk
2007-08-17, 11:40 AM
Alternate Form :smallsmile: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#alternateForm)

themightybiggun
2007-08-17, 11:46 AM
Welp, I just use the PHB2 variant and avoid all this silliness.

Overlard
2007-08-17, 11:54 AM
@leperkhaun: agree, a mage with a flaming staff could freak out the farmers even more than a dire lion.

@piratemonk: good points. You're correct. It is hard to see a BBEG trying to steal the class abilities off a druid rathern than simply using the same power to defeat him otherwise.

@arbitrarity&yango: thanks for clarifying the morphing rules here. I'm still a bit confused, though. So a druid of 12th level shaping into a dire lion gets the dire lion's BAB of +6 or his 12th level BAB of +9 in the dire lion form?
And according to the core rules, the wildshape class feature of the druid is based on polymorph. It may have been errata'ed since so it is based on "alternate form" - but I do not have the rules on that.

What if a fighter is turned into a monstrous humanoid (say, the typical war troll) with polymorph/polymorph any object. And he swings his greatsword+2 from his human form in one claw. Would he get his usual BAB and greatsword attacks on top of the natural attacks of the troll (bit, claw)? Appears odd to me.

- Giacomo
Your BAB doesn't change in your new form. So the fighter would get to swing his sword, and then bite (probably not claw, as they're holding the sword).

Overlard
2007-08-17, 11:57 AM
Welp, I just use the PHB2 variant and avoid all this silliness.
YEah, I was tempted to do that with a druid who didn't rely on wildshape in combat, but seeing as he lost his animal companion too (and the concept of the character involved riding into battle mounted on a big beastie), then there was no reason to.

Seeing as the PHB2 variant nerfs the druid in 3 different ways, there's a good chance that at least one of them will impact on a concept.

yango
2007-08-17, 12:56 PM
@arbitrarity&yango: thanks for clarifying the morphing rules here. I'm still a bit confused, though. So a druid of 12th level shaping into a dire lion gets the dire lion's BAB of +6 or his 12th level BAB of +9 in the dire lion form?
And according to the core rules, the wildshape class feature of the druid is based on polymorph. It may have been errata'ed since so it is based on "alternate form" - but I do not have the rules on that.

What if a fighter is turned into a monstrous humanoid (say, the typical war troll) with polymorph/polymorph any object. And he swings his greatsword+2 from his human form in one claw. Would he get his usual BAB and greatsword attacks on top of the natural attacks of the troll (bit, claw)? Appears odd to me.

- Giacomo

He gets the BAB of +12. It was changed to alternate form in the PHB Errata.

As for the troll, he'd get his iterative attacks with his greatsword. Since he's using both claws to hold the greatsword, he can't use them for further attacks, but he can still make a bite.

tainsouvra
2007-08-17, 02:29 PM
Sir Giacomo, there's something I don't quite understand...if you aren't familiar with how wildshape works, how can you be arguing that it's not as powerful as we're saying, when we do understand how it works? Doesn't not being familiar with it indicate that you should ask questions, then form conclusions? :smallconfused: I hope that doesn't come across terribly rude, but I think it's an important thing to consider here.

Nu
2007-08-17, 09:39 PM
100% agreement to Paladin boy.


If you go the typical druid & ac melee route, you can bet that druids will choose the larges ac available, so likely there will be 1, at best 2 bonus tricks. That is fairly limited (attack! That's it. Great...). And speak with animals spell only lasts for 1min/level. Even with such communication available, if you want your animal to do something it is normally not able to do ("go attack the enemy by flanking it with the rogue"), it takes a full round action.

- Giaocomo

Er, pushing an animal companion is a move action for a druid commanding her animal companion.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-18, 08:34 AM
Sir Giacomo, there's something I don't quite understand...if you aren't familiar with how wildshape works, how can you be arguing that it's not as powerful as we're saying, when we do understand how it works? Doesn't not being familiar with it indicate that you should ask questions, then form conclusions? :smallconfused: I hope that doesn't come across terribly rude, but I think it's an important thing to consider here.

Oh, I was perfectly aware of how the wildshape used to work in the original PHB rules (based on polymorph, with the exceptions listed in the druid class description). The alternate form update is new to me.
For instance, the druid apparently no longer becomes an animal when wildshaping. And wether you can do the natural attacks in addition to the stuff you can normally do is likewise not in the PHB but must have been added in an FAQ or rules update since. Because by the original rules, gaining natural attack would be similar to gaining improved unarmed strike. If you wished to use both that attack and your attack with a scimitar in one hand as a human or troll you would need to have some feat to avoid the hefty penalties for doing so.

Having said that, how could I ask questions when it appeared to me that the rules were clear (i.e. I was unaware of rules changes). You pointed the changes out and now I can re-assess my opinion on a druid's wildshape power.

The question remains: will a druid in dire lion form at 10th level be a more powerful melee combatant than the melee classes? And my major points remain - although the druid gains more attacks (plus possibly pounce) than his BAB in human form would allow, he is still no match in melee for the classes that focus on it and have higher hp, higher AC and a +3 higher BAB (with potential power attack advantage). Which is as it should be.

- Giacomo

yango
2007-08-18, 09:54 AM
The question remains: will a druid in dire lion form at 10th level be a more powerful melee combatant than the melee classes? And my major points remain - although the druid gains more attacks (plus possibly pounce) than his BAB in human form would allow, he is still no match in melee for the classes that focus on it and have higher hp, higher AC and a +3 higher BAB (with potential power attack advantage). Which is as it should be.

- Giacomo

The Druid is very likely to have higher Con than a fighter-type character, because he only cares about scores in 2 of his stats - Wisdom, and Constitution. Fighter-type characters suffer from relative MAD, as they require both stats dumped by the Druid - Dexterity and Strength, and require passable Intelligence to access some feats. The Druid only requires 2 points more Constitution to match a Fighter's average HP, which is very doable.

The second thing is that a Druid won't have a lower AC than the Fighter. If anyone in the party can cast Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor, the Druid can take full advantage of it in Wild Shaped form. Stack on top of this Natural Armor Bonuses (Barkskin and Elephant's Hide add on top of that) and the mid to high dexterity of many druid forms (which is not limited by armor) and the Druid's AC can often exceed the fighter's.

As fighter-types gain iterative attacks, the potential of the attacks drops quickly with each one, whereas, for a druid with Multiattack, his attack potential stays relatively constant. At 20th level, a Druid's primary attack, thanks to his high strength, will be somewhere between a fighter's 1st and 2nd iterative attacks in terms of attack bonus. His secondary attacks will ALL be at about the attack bonus of the 2nd attack, meaning all attacks after the 2nd are more effective than the fighter's.

Sir Giacomo
2007-08-18, 12:20 PM
Hi yango,

I must admit, you're getting me more and more convinced of druid melee strength. Still...


The Druid is very likely to have higher Con than a fighter-type character, because he only cares about scores in 2 of his stats - Wisdom, and Constitution. Fighter-type characters suffer from relative MAD, as they require both stats dumped by the Druid - Dexterity and Strength, and require passable Intelligence to access some feats. The Druid only requires 2 points more Constitution to match a Fighter's average HP, which is very doable.

Yes, that sounds reasonable. Talking about the relative MAD: the druid focuses on Wis, anyway, AND has a strong save there - which the fighter will have to make up (will saves are quite important also in combat). OK, the fighter might wear a cloak of resistance for better saves than the druid in animal form which might not be allowed by the DM to keep the cloak functional in that form.


The second thing is that a Druid won't have a lower AC than the Fighter. If anyone in the party can cast Mage Armor/Greater Mage Armor, the Druid can take full advantage of it in Wild Shaped form. Stack on top of this Natural Armor Bonuses (Barkskin and Elephant's Hide add on top of that) and the mid to high dexterity of many druid forms (which is not limited by armor) and the Druid's AC can often exceed the fighter's.

If we assume a party mage at those levels, he'll likewise cast mage armour and polymorph on the fighter (not limited to animals), who'd then definitely be tougher than the druid in melee (especially if he's optimised for those buffs).


As fighter-types gain iterative attacks, the potential of the attacks drops quickly with each one, whereas, for a druid with Multiattack, his attack potential stays relatively constant. At 20th level, a Druid's primary attack, thanks to his high strength, will be somewhere between a fighter's 1st and 2nd iterative attacks in terms of attack bonus. His secondary attacks will ALL be at about the attack bonus of the 2nd attack, meaning all attacks after the 2nd are more effective than the fighter's.

However, the fighter has way more feats and can make of highly useful weapon enhancements use at higher levels - and power attack is really going to help a lot.

Add to this again the limited communication possibility of the druid; the large animal combat form (-1 btw to attack and AC due to size) could be vulnerable in terms of using cover and conealment.

Overall, in a party with fighter/druid/mage/rogue it is possible, but not sure that the druid takes the role as the party meleer. (the fighter could be secondary meleer and focus on ranged attacks, but so could the druid). It is still my opinion that the druid should only melee in emergency, but it sure could be built to go fully melee.

- Giacomo

Solo
2007-08-18, 12:29 PM
If we assume a party mage at those levels, he'll likewise cast mage armour and polymorph on the fighter (not limited to animals), who'd then definitely be tougher than the druid in melee (especially if he's optimised for those buffs).


I would like to point out that in your example, the fighter must make use of one of the most broken spells in DnD in order to stay competitive.

Gralamin
2007-08-18, 12:51 PM
I would like to point out that in your example, the fighter must make use of one of the most broken spells in DnD in order to stay competitive.

I also would like to point out that Mage armor doesn't stack with a Fighter's Armor bonus

lord_khaine
2007-08-18, 12:59 PM
and while mage armor is a lv 1 spell that just have to be cast at the start of the day, polymorp is a lv 4 spell that has to be cast at the start of the battle, usualy wasting a action for the mage.

yango
2007-08-18, 02:36 PM
Yes, that sounds reasonable. Talking about the relative MAD: the druid focuses on Wis, anyway, AND has a strong save there - which the fighter will have to make up (will saves are quite important also in combat). OK, the fighter might wear a cloak of resistance for better saves than the druid in animal form which might not be allowed by the DM to keep the cloak functional in that form.

This raises one of the other advantages of a druid: ability to stay on-par in character strength, with minimal use of magic items.


If we assume a party mage at those levels, he'll likewise cast mage armour and polymorph on the fighter (not limited to animals), who'd then definitely be tougher than the druid in melee (especially if he's optimised for those buffs).

Not necessarily. For one, Mage Armor doesn't stack with a fighter's existing armor. For another, while Mage Armor + Wild Shape is likely to last the entire day, Polymorph will only last the duration of the encounter.


However, the fighter has way more feats and can make of highly useful weapon enhancements use at higher levels - and power attack is really going to help a lot.

Greater Magic Fang covers magic enhancement bonuses pretty well for Druids. If not, Legendary Ape form gets natural attacks, and can use weapons, thanks to opposable thumbs. As I said, a Druid is likely to still get more out of Power Attack, since his 3rd, 4th, and attacks after that are more likely to hit than the fighter.


Add to this again the limited communication possibility of the druid; the large animal combat form (-1 btw to attack and AC due to size) could be vulnerable in terms of using cover and conealment.

This is true, but also remember that a fighter in plate mail is also going to have battlefield mobility issues as well. Plus, if necessary, a Druid does have Tiny Wild Shape forms available.


Overall, in a party with fighter/druid/mage/rogue it is possible, but not sure that the druid takes the role as the party meleer. (the fighter could be secondary meleer and focus on ranged attacks, but so could the druid). It is still my opinion that the druid should only melee in emergency, but it sure could be built to go fully melee.

Fighter/Druid/Mage/Rogue, maybe...
Cleric/Druid/Mage/Rogue, CaDzilla has the melee department completely covered.

horseboy
2007-08-18, 02:37 PM
I also would like to point out that Mage armor doesn't stack with a Fighter's Armor bonus

I would also like to point out the "wild" armour special ability, allowing the armour bonus to stack while in wild form.

PirateMonk
2007-08-18, 02:42 PM
Fighter/Druid/Mage/Rogue, maybe...
Cleric/Druid/Mage/Rogue, CaDzilla has the melee department completely covered.

Of course, they might have a few troubles at lower levels, though it's workable, but 5+ they're fine.

yango
2007-08-18, 04:01 PM
Of course, they might have a few troubles at lower levels, though it's workable, but 5+ they're fine.

Not even.
Levels 1-3 are prime power time for an Animal Companion, and the cleric can get either Extend Spell or Extra Turning as a bonus feat from their domain, granting access to DMM by level 3.

Stephen_E
2007-08-18, 05:44 PM
This raises one of the other advantages of a druid: ability to stay on-par in character strength, with minimal use of magic items.


I'm well aware of that.
The DM just offered our 5th level party a 3000gp magic item of choice which we could boost up with personal cash. Given that the only thing I'd spent more than a few gp on was barding for my AC I was able to look at items in the 8,000 - 9,000go range. The GM nixed me getting much for my AC so I ended up buying a Metamagic rod of lesser empower to boost my Flame blades and Poisons.

There simply wasn't much of interest to my Druid.

Stephen

PirateMonk
2007-08-18, 06:00 PM
Not even.
Levels 1-3 are prime power time for an Animal Companion, and the cleric can get either Extend Spell or Extra Turning as a bonus feat from their domain, granting access to DMM by level 3.

I suppose you're right. Though it's still harder than what is to come (giant bear and giant cleric smashing everything in a round or two).

Ungvar
2007-08-18, 06:03 PM
And as far as limited communication goes, the Druid just needs to take one level of Master of Many Forms and he gets Shifters' Speech, giving him the ability to speak normally no matter what shape he takes, and also the ability to speak with any other creature of the same kind that can also communicate on some level.

In fact, at 3rd level a Master of Many Forms has access to "Monstrous Huminoid". You can also cast the 4th level "Enhance Wild Shape" spell (Spell Compendium), and gain ALL of the extraordinary abilities of your next form, not just the extraordinary attacks. And that spell, too, lasts 1 hour/level.

So you could have a Druid17/MoMF3 running around as a War Troll all day, with all the War Troll's special abilities, and still have access to the druid's 9th level magic (albeit just one spell a day).

...and we haven't even discussed how effective the druid is as an alternative rogue. If some guard sees a rogue sneaking around the Evil Baron's house at night, he raises the alarm. If he sees the wildshaped druid in the form of a cat, he says: "huh, a cat", and moves on. And who cares if that stupid (wildshaped druid) pigeon outside the window overhears the Evil Masterplan? Certainly not the unsuspecting baddie.

A well-played druid is a force.

Sir Jason
2007-08-18, 06:05 PM
Quote from Bart Simpson: 'Nobody suspects the butterfly...'

horseboy
2007-08-18, 06:08 PM
Quote from Bart Simpson: 'Nobody suspects the butterfly...'

Oh dear God! Must go create evil druid that controls butterflies! Must find two pesky kids to arch on! And a half-orc expert girlfriend.

yango
2007-08-18, 08:27 PM
I'm well aware of that.
The DM just offered our 5th level party a 3000gp magic item of choice which we could boost up with personal cash. Given that the only thing I'd spent more than a few gp on was barding for my AC I was able to look at items in the 8,000 - 9,000go range. The GM nixed me getting much for my AC so I ended up buying a Metamagic rod of lesser empower to boost my Flame blades and Poisons.

There simply wasn't much of interest to my Druid.

Stephen

Personally, I would have spent it on a Rod of Lesser Metamagic - Extend. You're only 5th level, so you could use it to boost Longstrider and Greater Magic Fang to effectively whole day duration.

PirateMonk
2007-08-19, 12:57 PM
To further illustrate the lack of necessary magic items for druids:

Sir Giacomo has repeatedly stated that any PC class can solo a CR 20 monster at level 20. He has illustrated this fairly well with both the Fighter and the Monk, though both strategies left quite a bit to chance. More importantly, both builds required a fair amount of expensive magic items. Casters, on the other hand, need far less. Clerics need spell components and holy symbols. Druids need spell components and maybe divine focuses. Wizards need components and spellbooks (or at least must have had a spellbook that morning). Sorcerors only need components.

So, when everyone is captured by the BBEG, then stripped and dumped in a labyrinth full of monsters, all noncasters except the monk are completely screwed, the monk is mostly screwed, the cleric and bard are fairly screwed, the druid is okay but in a bad position, and the wizard is disadvantaged but the best off if he got spell preparation done and still has all his spells.

yango
2007-08-19, 04:39 PM
Clerics need spell components and holy symbols. Druids need spell components and maybe divine focuses. Wizards need components and spellbooks (or at least must have had a spellbook that morning). Sorcerors only need components.

Just to nitpick here, only spells with valuable components (not too many that are used in the thick of combat) require components at all for Druids and Clerics IIRC. Trivial components like eagles eyes and bat guano and stuff are not required for Druids and Clerics. Thus this means that Druids can effectively prepare non-focus, non-component required spells even in a jail or somewhere to that effect.

PirateMonk
2007-08-19, 04:48 PM
Yes, don't they substitute a Divine Focus for those?