Polymorph—what am I missing?

[VoxRationis]

So I was thinking of taking polymorph as one of my free spells my wizard gets from leveling up. However, as I look at the description, it seems fairly limited. I'm aware of the spell's reputation as OP due to its ability to enable you to sourcebook-dive, but the limitations seem fairly damning to me.

You don't get supernatural abilities, or any extraordinary ones under the flag of "Special Qualities." This cuts out almost all of the really interesting things you would actually want from a creature, besides movement speeds and natural armor. If I turn into a wolf, I can't track by scent. If I turn into a troll, I can't regenerate. If I turn into a blink dog, I'm basically the wolf again.
Your hit points are explicitly stated as not changing, even though your Constitution will probably increase, so that giant dragon you turned into is just as vulnerable as your squishy mortal physique.
Base attack bonus also doesn't change. Therefore, any natural attacks you were thinking of using aren't likely to hit, regardless of how nice that damage is. Low Strength was only one of the things holding my wizard back from being a melee powerhouse, and polymorph doesn't really address several of the others.

Type changing is good, if you're fighting the sort of people who throw a lot of effects that type can block (though most of the types with blanket immunities are excluded from the spell—mostly, it makes you immune to spells with "person" in the title). The utility presented by picking forms with flight (picking a wyrmling red dragon is pretty much a 40-mile teleport), swim, or burrow is good, and there are a couple forms I can see that could be good, like dire weasel to do Con damage, but the spell still seems like it's not really answering the reason why one would turn into another creature. If my wizard turned into a hydra (one of the more commonly-cited go-to forms for this spell), I feel like she would just become a bigger target and die more readily. (This sentiment might be influenced by campaign-specific factors, though, as the primary enemies of this campaign use firearms.)

So what nuance of the spell am I missing? I know the Playground salivates over this spell and has pored over its every capability.

[Luccan]

I can't answer your direct question, but here are some uses: you can Polymorph your friends, too. What fighter wouldn't appreciate being a Dragon? You can turn into creatures of Fine size, which is good for sneaking... If I had time, I'd get more creative, but there is plenty to do with it. At the very least, it has a great deal of utility.

[VoxRationis]

That's actually a very important nuance I was missing. Thanks a lot. I hadn't considered combinations based on polymorphing other members of the party.

[peacenlove]

So I was thinking of taking polymorph as one of my free spells my wizard gets from leveling up. However, as I look at the description, it seems fairly limited. I'm aware of the spell's reputation as OP due to its ability to enable you to sourcebook-dive, but the limitations seem fairly damning to me.

You don't get supernatural abilities, or any extraordinary ones under the flag of "Special Qualities." This cuts out almost all of the really interesting things you would actually want from a creature, besides movement speeds and natural armor. If I turn into a wolf, I can't track by scent. If I turn into a troll, I can't regenerate. If I turn into a blink dog, I'm basically the wolf again.
Your hit points are explicitly stated as not changing, even though your Constitution will probably increase, so that giant dragon you turned into is just as vulnerable as your squishy mortal physique.
Base attack bonus also doesn't change. Therefore, any natural attacks you were thinking of using aren't likely to hit, regardless of how nice that damage is. Low Strength was only one of the things holding my wizard back from being a melee powerhouse, and polymorph doesn't really address several of the others.

Type changing is good, if you're fighting the sort of people who throw a lot of effects that type can block (though most of the types with blanket immunities are excluded from the spell—mostly, it makes you immune to spells with "person" in the title). The utility presented by picking forms with flight (picking a wyrmling red dragon is pretty much a 40-mile teleport), swim, or burrow is good, and there are a couple forms I can see that could be good, like dire weasel to do Con damage, but the spell still seems like it's not really answering the reason why one would turn into another creature. If my wizard turned into a hydra (one of the more commonly-cited go-to forms for this spell), I feel like she would just become a bigger target and die more readily. (This sentiment might be influenced by campaign-specific factors, though, as the primary enemies of this campaign use firearms.)

So what nuance of the spell am I missing? I know the Playground salivates over this spell and has pored over its every capability.

Polymorph is range: touch
Have fun multiplying the damage output of the party rogue with hydra forms while he benefits from fast healing 15-20. This is one of the sanest approaches of the spell.

EDIT: Swordsaged

[Eldariel]

It's just replacing all your physicals with monster physicals, gaining the size and the movement modes of a monster. And natural abilities, and supernatural with Assume Supernatural Ability. The monster physicals tend to make you the best warrior in the house (can be cast on warriors as superbuffs) ignoring any previous investments and it gives you a wide variety of potent flight/swim/burrow/etc. modes of movement and a number of other boons in the types. It's mostly just a buff spell too good that doubles as a mobility spell (Dragon forms get insane flight speed for instance), but yes, it's not "infinite Wishes"-overpowered rather than "too good at what it does compared to all the other options in the game" and "makes learning normal martial combat/investing in strength and such feel stupid".

[bahamut920]

All of your physical ability scores are replaced by the creature's. This means that a gish wizard can completely dump Str and Dex and still function (aside from maybe 13 Str for Power Attack). You can have a 30 natural Str score easily, and if you're humanoid in form (so all humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and giants as well as many fey, elementals, and outsiders) all of your magic items still function. Even your fighter buddy with his 18 natural Str appreciates that. There are forms that give pretty good Dex scores too, if you're into ranged combat or finesse.
You gain all of the creature's extraordinary natural attacks. This can get you Pounce, Rend, Rake, Improved Grab, Constrict, etc. One trick is to take the form of a War Troll, which has the Dazing Blow special attack; every time the target hits with a weapon or a claw attack, the opponent needs to make a Fort save or be dazed for one round. Mountain Trolls have Pounce and Rend, IIRC.
You gain all of the creature's modes of movement (except those that are explicitly supernatural). It's fly, swim, spider climb, expeditious retreat, and burrow all wrapped into one spell.
You can gain a bunch of natural armor that way. And since it's the creature's base natural armor, it's compatible with amulets of natural armor, the barkskin spell, etc.
You're not limited to casting it on yourself. Everybody loves a good polymorph!


EDIT: As eldariel says, it's not literally game-breaking in power, like the spells that allow you to summon literal armies of outsiders or gain infinite wishes or create demiplanes where time flows at 100x the rate of the Material Plane (but nobody ages or needs to eat or sleep), but it is one of the strongest options available at 4th level, due to its ridiculous utility.

[VoxRationis]

Polymorph is range: touch
Have fun multiplying the damage output of the party rogue with hydra forms while he benefits from fast healing 15-20. This is one of the sanest approaches of the spell.

EDIT: Swordsaged
Based on my understanding of the wording of the spell, you can't get fast healing from a hydra form, since the spell doesn't give you "special qualities," just "special attacks." So you can abuse trip, pounce, blood drain, and the like, but it won't make you tougher except for an AC boost.

It's just replacing all your physicals with monster physicals, gaining the size and the movement modes of a monster. And natural abilities, and supernatural with Assume Supernatural Ability. The monster physicals tend to make you the best warrior in the house (can be cast on warriors as superbuffs) ignoring any previous investments and it gives you a wide variety of potent flight/swim/burrow/etc. modes of movement and a number of other boons in the types. It's mostly just a buff spell too good that doubles as a mobility spell (Dragon forms get insane flight speed for instance), but yes, it's not "infinite Wishes"-overpowered rather than "too good at what it does compared to all the other options in the game" and "makes learning normal martial combat/investing in strength and such feel stupid".

What is Assume Supernatural Ability? Is that a feat from PHBII or something? And aren't you still hampered by the low BAB unless you cast it on the party warrior?

[Eldariel]

What is Assume Supernatural Ability? Is that a feat from PHBII or something? And aren't you still hampered by the low BAB unless you cast it on the party warrior?

BAB is just attack bonus for natural attacks - you don't care about iteratives. And the differences really aren't that big; one spell does more. But yeah, Remorhaz (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/remorhaz.htm) on 7 is strong.

[bahamut920]

What is Assume Supernatural Ability? Is that a feat from PHBII or something?
Savage Species, actually. It allows you to pick one supernatural ability of a creature whose form you assume. DCs are all based upon your actual ability scores instead of the monster's, you take a -2 penalty on d20 rolls, and you need to make a DC 19 Will save to use the ability in combat. Still, it can get you gaze attacks, breath weapons, and the like, special abilities that don't require attack rolls to succeed.


And aren't you still hampered by the low BAB unless you cast it on the party warrior?
A gish could use the spell more effectively than the party fighter easily. And don't forget that every spell the wizard casts on other party members to make them more effective is a contribution to winning the battle as a whole. If you're a glory-hog that might not appeal, but I've played wizards who did 90% of their work before the battle started, and mostly stuck around during the actual fight to counter enemy spellcasters and deal with the occasional unforeseen hitch in the plan.

[VoxRationis]

A gish could use the spell more effectively than the party fighter easily. And don't forget that every spell the wizard casts on other party members to make them more effective is a contribution to winning the battle as a whole. If you're a glory-hog that might not appeal, but I've played wizards who did 90% of their work before the battle started, and mostly stuck around during the actual fight to counter enemy spellcasters and deal with the occasional unforeseen hitch in the plan.

Don't get me wrong; I understand the value of teamwork. But I was hoping for a good ace in the hole with this spell. The campaign I'm in periodically turns into large-scale battles, conflicts which my wizard is not well-suited to survive, owing to poor Constitution, a small hit die, and general lack of useful attacks (unless I burn up all my charges from my wand of scorching ray). I very much understand why casting polymorph on the fighter is helpful to get the fight done, but survivability on my part is very much a concern.

[Eldariel]

Don't get me wrong; I understand the value of teamwork. But I was hoping for a good ace in the hole with this spell. The campaign I'm in periodically turns into large-scale battles, conflicts which my wizard is not well-suited to survive, owing to poor Constitution, a small hit die, and general lack of useful attacks (unless I burn up all my charges from my wand of scorching ray). I very much understand why casting polymorph on the fighter is helpful to get the fight done, but survivability on my part is very much a concern.

One of the best mass combat form for Polymorph without Assume Supernatural Ability is Hydra, just for the number of attacks. Ranged attackers are also nice, e.g. Manticore (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/manticore.htm) can hit up to 6 targets per volley at 3 volleys. But yeah, if you don't have the stats it's generally not at its best as a personal buff.

[bahamut920]

Yeah, you're unlikely to gain much in the way of survivability from polymorph over, say, alter self. A better 4th-level spell for surviving combat might be something like greater mirror image. Polymorph is still a solid option, though, because your party members will certainly appreciate it, and Assume Supernatural Ability can give you attack options (like breath weapons or gaze attacks, like I mentioned in my last post) which will quite handily affect large groups.

Wall of fire is another solid 4th-level option, especially if you end up in mass combats a lot. Not much damage, but it creates a barrier that most low-HD creatures will not willingly enter, allowing you to sculpt the battlefield a bit and control what direction you engage enemies from. With polymorph, your warriors could even do hit-and-run attacks through the wall, because you gain the subtypes of the creature you polymorph into, which means polymorphing into a creature with the fire subtype makes you immune to fire.

EDIT: There's also the Master Transmogrifist (Complete Arcane) prestige class, which focuses on use of the polymorph spell and expands its versatility and combat ability somewhat when cast on you. You select favored forms, and gain more of the abilities of those forms. I've been wanting to play one for a while, but neither of my usual groups are ideal for it (one gimps polymorph by forcing you to use the creature's stat block exactly as written, and the other is a Pathfinder-based group).

[ben-zayb]

Power-attack gishes and sneak-attack gishes running Persisted Wraithstrike would just love getting into a Hydra form. More humanoid forms like Troll wouldn't even need a persisted Wraithstrike to be ridiculous

[Grod_The_Giant]

Don't get me wrong; I understand the value of teamwork. But I was hoping for a good ace in the hole with this spell. The campaign I'm in periodically turns into large-scale battles, conflicts which my wizard is not well-suited to survive, owing to poor Constitution, a small hit die, and general lack of useful attacks (unless I burn up all my charges from my wand of scorching ray). I very much understand why casting polymorph on the fighter is helpful to get the fight done, but survivability on my part is very much a concern.
Peeking at the handbook (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=ihe1g709ni9l80o2b4orhfgbv4&topic=519)... how about a Roper? A ridiculous +14 NA, and you get 6 touch attacks/round that do a whopping 2d8 Strength damage on a hit. Drop in the middle of a crowd and debuff everyone.

[Necroticplague]

Your hit points are explicitly stated as not changing, even though your Constitution will probably increase, so that giant dragon you turned into is just as vulnerable as your squishy mortal physique. Except your squishy mortal body was relatively unarmored. Your draconic form, on the other hand, may have a layer of natural armor thicker than the Fighter's plate mail.


Base attack bonus also doesn't change. Therefore, any natural attacks you were thinking of using aren't likely to hit, regardless of how nice that damage is. Low Strength was only one of the things holding my wizard back from being a melee powerhouse, and polymorph doesn't really address several of the others.All BaB is to a natural-attack using creature is an accuracy boost. STR also provides this accuracy boost, while also boosting damage. For example, at level 8, the fighter has BAB 8, while a wizard has 4. Wizard Polymorphs into a polar bear. The fighter's attack is 8 (bab)+4 (18 STR)=12. The wizard's attack is 4 (bab)+8 (27 STR)=12. So they're equally as accurate, but the wizards second attack is equally as accurate, while the Fighter's second attack is at -5.


The utility presented by picking forms with flight (picking a wyrmling red dragon is pretty much a 40-mile teleport), swim, or burrow is good, and there are a couple forms I can see that could be good, That alone makes it a spell worth preparing or knowing. It offers a frankly disproportionate amount of utility per slot, just like Shadow spells. You only need one creature to be worth turning into to make the spell worth it. That there are several just improves it even more.

And yeah, if touch-hitting guns (a la pathfinder) are used a lot, many stronger forms will be a bad idea, since DnD's monsters tend to have crap touch AC compensated for by massive piles of natural armor. There's always Prismatic Scales, though

[daryen]

... or, memorize the spell twice: Turn the meatshield into a hydra and turn yourself into something really tiny and use your now gigantic meatshield as total cover. They can't damage you because they literally can't get to you.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want survival in a mass battle, consider something tiny rather than big. Big things draw fire. Tiny things are hard to hit.

Also, consider something with the swarm subtype to become immune to most directed attacks. It is cheesy, but raw a rat swarm is a valid shape.

[Kayblis]

I'd like to point out that Polymorph also heals you. You can cast it while low on health to get a flying, tiny form and fly to safety, or heal the Fighter while also turning him into a giant monster. Fine size also gives you +16 size bonuses to Hide and Move Silently, which by itself is enough to set you on par with the Rogue on sneaking. When cast on the Rogue himself, well... let's say Take 1 has never seen so much use in sneaking.

On the same line, Trollshape is a level 4 spell from the Polymorph subschool that does grant Regeneration as well as temporary HP. If all you need is survivability and Polymorph is banned, this spell got you covered.