One Sentence Fixes (3.5)

[SirNibbles]

I thought this'd be a fun little game to play. You have a maximum of ten words or one sentence (whichever is less) to explain your 'fix' for a certain class, feat, spell, etc., and then choose a new one for someone else to fix. I'll start us off:

Fighter (Player's Handbook, page 37)

EDIT: Try to be somewhat serious and make it so that your fix could be incorporated without any ambiguity. For example, instead of saying "more bonus feats", you would say "feats at every level".

[Fouredged Sword]

Play a warblade.

Monk

[AvatarVecna]

I thought this'd be a fun little game to play. You have a maximum of ten words or one sentence (whichever is less) to explain your 'fix' for a certain class, feat, spell, etc., and then choose a new one for someone else to fix. I'll start us off:

Fighter (Player's Handbook, page 37)

Real answer: "Miss chance, regeneration, mobile offense, better saves/skills, and maneuvers."

Cheating answer: "Play a veteran (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?428437-quot-Stand-back-boy-and-let-me-show-you-war!-quot-%283-5-class-PEACH%29) instead."

((I call it a cheating answer because linking to a homebrew Super!Fighter that has more than 10 words, without using 10 words for the link, feels like getting around the limitations placed on this thread.))

Assassin (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 180)

EDIT: Damnit, ninja'd!

[Grod_The_Giant]

Hmm, this sounds fun.

Fighter (Player's Handbook, page 37)
Gestalt with Expert, retrain bonus feats with one hour's practice.

EDIT: Swordsage'd


Monk
Full BAB, Flurry on any attack, use Wisdom instead Strength.

[QUOTE=AvatarVecna;22445241]Assassin (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 180)
No alignment restriction, +1 spell known and per-day per level.

--------


Soulknife (XPH)

[khadgar567]

artificer: gets 9 level spontaneous casting from wizard list
done

[AnimeTheCat]

Soulknife (XPH)

Full BAB, Psychic Roge Skills/Points, Free Action Psychic Strike.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about Soulborn (MoI)

[Telonius]

Full BAB, Psychic Roge Skills/Points, Free Action Psychic Strike.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How about Soulborn (MoI)

4+Int skills, 3/4 Incarnate meldshaping, Paladin Mount.

Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

[Cosi]

Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

Play a Shadowcraft Mage.

[Zaq]

4+Int skills, 3/4 Incarnate meldshaping, Paladin Mount.

Shadowcaster (Tome of Magic)

All daily limits are encounter limits instead.

Soulborn

[Grod_The_Giant]

All daily limits are encounter limits instead.

Soulborn
Meldshaping as Totemist; Smites per-encounter; Fighter or Incarnum feats.

Swashbuckler.

[SirNibbles]

Meldshaping as Totemist; Smites per-encounter; Fighter or Incarnum feats.

Swashbuckler.

Good Reflex, Insightful Strike affects all enemies, double Dodge bonuses.

__

Arcane Archer (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 176)

[Cosi]

Arcane Archer (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 176)

Full Casting Progression.

Incantatrix.

[Nifft]

Incantatrix.

Ban all FR caster PrCs, including Spelldancer and Cheater of Mystra and Spellfire Cheater and whatever others I forgot, but not that cool Barbarian-with-an-AMF class, because that one is cool.


Duelist.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Good Reflex, Insightful Strike affects all enemies, double Dodge bonuses.
Eh, still pretty bad outside of Daring Outlaw.


Incantatrix.
Nuke from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Or, ditch Focused Specialist and all Metamagic-based features.


Duelist.
Precise Strike every odd level, uncap Canny Defense.

Dwarven Defender.

[Kayblis]

Duelist.

Double Precise Strike, give it sooner, allow Light armor.


Dragon Shaman.

[Cosi]

Dragon Shaman.

High Power: Gestalt with Sorcerer, give Heritage Feats.
Low Power: Gestalt with Dragonfire Adept.

[GrayDeath]

Dwarven Defender.

Change "stand still" to "Cannot charge", 4+int SP, AC-Bonus-to-Damage-x/day.

[Kayblis]

Dwarven Defender.

Free mobility, two more uses, DR every even level.

[SirNibbles]

Eh, still pretty bad outside of Daring Outlaw.



Dwarven Defender.

There's only so much you can do with 10 words, especially for a class which doesn't get any spellcasting or magical abilities. Maybe a way to synergise with Weakening and Wounding Critical, in the form of an extended crit range, would be useful. Daring Outlaw is such a powerful dip that it's hard to imagine not picking it up for a Swashbuckler.
____

Someone forgot to post a new thing to fix, so I'll go ahead and do it, switching to a feat this time:

Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane, page 81 i think)

[Cosi]

Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane, page 81 i think)

Moves duration "up" one stage (rounds -> mins -> hours -> days). +1 Modifier. Change Extend to same.

Acolyte of the Skin.

[Aetis]

Acolyte of the Skin.

Remove mind-affecting descriptor from Fiendish Glare and make it usable #/day equal to AotS class level + Cha modifier.

Wizard (Player's Handbook)

[Nifft]

Acolyte of the Skin.

9/10 casting, at-will features instead of 1/day.


Truenamer.

[Cosi]

Wizard (Player's Handbook)

Wizard is fine as-is. Insofar as there is a problem, it is the spells.


Truenamer.

Depends what you mean by fixed. Giving them all the utterances they can take as at-will abilities would get you to "slightly worse than the Warlock". That's still pretty terrible.

Bard.

[SirNibbles]

Wizard is fine as-is. Insofar as there is a problem, it is the spells.



Depends what you mean by fixed. Giving them all the utterances they can take as at-will abilities would get you to "slightly worse than the Warlock". That's still pretty terrible.

Bard.

I wouldn't mind seeing Wizard's max spell level slowed to the same progression as Sorcerer.

[Kayblis]

Bard.

Seduction as a class skill. +10 on Seduction class skill.

[Cosi]

I wouldn't mind seeing Wizard's max spell level slowed to the same progression as Sorcerer.

They should be equal, but it's probably better to change the Sorcerer, so that all the spells come at (2 * Level - 1) and you don't need a special case for 1st level spells.

[Nifft]

Seduction as a class skill. +10 on Seduction class skill.

"A Bard man is good to find." -- Flannery O'Conjurer

[daremetoidareyo]

Fleet runner of elhonna

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wizard (Player's Handbook)
Ban spells requiring the monster manual or altering action economy. (Works for other casters, too!)


Bard.
Double Inspire Courage progression, ban external boosts.


Truenamer.
Remove both Laws, know all Utterances.


Fleet runner of elhonna
I dunno what that class is even supposed to be. Why does it require casting, like, at all?

Remove casting, add full Skirmish progression, 6 skill points/level. or Full casting, remove Dodge and Mobility prereqs.

Factotum.

[Cosi]

Factotum.

Play a Chameleon instead.

planar binding (regular, lesser, and/or greater) -- "ban it" doesn't count.

[Inevitability]

Fleet runner of elhonna

Remove prerequisite feats, add full casting advancement.

Rogue.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Rogue.
d8 hit die, Bardic Knack, Sneak Attack immune take half.

Druid.

[Cosi]

Druid.

No Wild Shape. Also, Wild Shape Ranger is the default and gets full Wild Shape.

Skill Focus and/or the +2 Skill feats.

[SirNibbles]

Remove prerequisite feats, add full casting advancement.

Rogue.

Sneak hits all enemies with discernible anatomy, open magic locks.

EDIT:

Dodge

[Grod_The_Giant]

Skill Focus and/or the +2 Skill feats.
+2/+2 feats count as Skill Focuses, add 1/3 level.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

[Cosi]

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil.

Make it ten levels long. Spread out bonuses accordingly.

Sanctum Spell.

[Nifft]

Sanctum Spell.

List out specific benefits & penalties instead of piggy-backing on "spell level".


Bestow Power.

[Cosi]

Bestow Power.

Fix the points gained to the points spent - 1. Honestly though, I don't really care if you get infinite power points -- it's not like you weren't going to rest as soon as you ran out anyway.

Weapons of Legacy.

[AnimeTheCat]

Fix the points gained to the points spent - 1. Honestly though, I don't really care if you get infinite power points -- it's not like you weren't going to rest as soon as you ran out anyway.

Weapons of Legacy.

Remove penalties, remove feat tax, make them like aritfacts.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Paladin

[daremetoidareyo]

Paladin

Gestalt with Soulborn

[Grod_The_Giant]

Paladin

Gestalt with Soulborn
Doesn't do enough.

Cha-based casting, Duskblade progression, Smites per encounter.

Artificer.

[Cosi]

Artificer.

Remove crafting. Give it a pet robot.

Evocation.

[ben-zayb]

Remove crafting. Give it a pet robot.

Evocation.
Adopt the orbs and give ACFs to punch through immunity.


Reaping Mauler

[AvatarVecna]

Adopt the orbs and give ACFs to punch through immunity.


Reaping Mauler

Con to AC, DR, scaling bonuses to grapple and damage, anti-teleportation/FoM.

Aerial Avenger.

[Cosi]

Aerial Avenger.

Make it a two level PrC. Or maybe a two-feat chain.

Barbarian.

[daremetoidareyo]

Aerial Avenger.

dump pre-req feats, condense class levels down from 10 to 5

[Grod_The_Giant]

Evocation.

Adopt the orbs and give ACFs to punch through immunity.
Hmm... doesn't seem like enough. How 'bout "Reduce direct damage evocations' spell level by 3/4 (round up)?" Meteor Swarm is a pathetic 9th, but looks a lot better at 7th.


Barbarian.
Gestalt with Scout; pick either Skirmish or Rage.

Divine Mind

[Cosi]

Divine Mind

Gestalt with Psychic Warrior.

Planar Shepherd.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Gestalt with Psychic Warrior.

Planar Shepherd.
No Su/Sp abilities from Wild Shape, no time traits, 8/10 casting.

Ur Priest.

[NecroDancer]

No Su/Sp abilities from Wild Shape, no time traits, 8/10 casting.

Ur Priest.

No prestige classes should give 1-9th level spells.

Half-Orc

[ben-zayb]

Ninjad! :smallredface:

[Duke of Urrel]

Here's my one-word fix for spell resistance, which I have adopted as a house rule (in direct defiance against the Rules Compendium v. 3.5 (2007), despite my usual acceptance of this book as the final word).

Take this sentence, quoted from page 177 of the Player's Handbook v. 3.5 (2012):


A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell noted as harmless.

Then add one little word, so that the sentence reads as follows:

A creature with spell resistance must voluntarily lower the resistance (a standard action) in order to be affected by a spell not noted as harmless.

That's it.

[rel]

very difficult to do much with so few words...


Half-Orc

remove int penalty.
no penalty rage. like travel clerics' FoM.

Cleric

[Ignimortis]

Cleric

Ban DMM/Remove buff stacking.

Fighter-only feats!

[Inevitability]

Fighter-only feats!

Boost their numbers, make fighter desirable.

Commoner

[rel]

Commoner

Improve skill points, class skills. 2 weapon proficiencies. HD D6.

Power attack (feat)

[ben-zayb]

Improve skill points, class skills. 2 weapon proficiencies. HD D6.

Power attack (feat)
Damage bonus can only get multiplied through crit.


Mindbender

[Ignimortis]

Damage bonus can only get multiplied through crit.


Mindbender

Full casting progression, maybe 9/10.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (not spiked chain)

[flare'90]

Full casting progression, maybe 9/10.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency (not spiked chain)

Make Exotic Weapons better, not just +1 damage.

Combat Expertise

[AnimeTheCat]

Make Exotic Weapons better, not just +1 damage.

Combat Expertise

Remove Int requirement, make BAB requirement.

---------------------------------------------------------

Wizard/Sorcerer Spells

[Grod_The_Giant]

very difficult to do much with so few words...
That's what makes it fun!


Wizard/Sorcerer Spells
Ban spells requiring the monster manual or altering action economy. (Planar Binding, Alter Self, Polymorph, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop, Celerity, Contingency, summons-for-extra-spells, all gone. Even Persistent Spell, arguably)

Hexblade

[khadgar567]

Hexblade
increase skills to 8+int ( screw you wizards of the coast)

[Zaq]

Hexblade

Curse usable X/enc rather than X/day; better armor; spells/day as Duskblade.

Archivist

[Vhaidara]

Hexblade

Gestalt with Duskblade.

IRON. HEART. SURGE.

[Cosi]

GIRON. HEART. SURGE.

Targeted dispel magic on you. Infinite CL. Skip spells of your choice.

Monsters as PCs.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Curse usable X/enc rather than X/day; better armor; spells/day as Duskblade.

Archivist
Only learns Cleric (and Druid?) spells-- no domains, other lists.


Gestalt with Duskblade.

IRON. HEART. SURGE.
Egh. Ugly gestalt. Duskblade progression would be sweet, though.

Write whitelist of conditions; Surge removes them. Allow when stunned.

Spirit Shaman

[Cosi]

Spirit Shaman

Again, the issue isn't with the caster classes, it's with specific spells. Honestly, the "fix" I'd like to see is giving it some more spirit themed spells and/or class features.

Warlock.

[SirNibbles]

Again, the issue isn't with the caster classes, it's with specific spells. Honestly, the "fix" I'd like to see is giving it some more spirit themed spells and/or class features.

Warlock.

Well then, people should be mentioning which specific spells they think need changing, instead of just generally saying "all spells of X category" and getting a vague answer.

When someone says "Half-Orc" and the answer is "Remove Int Penalty, no penalty for raging", that's something you can immediately implement. When the topic is "Evocation" and the answer is "give ACFs to punch through immunity", most people are really no closer to being able to implement a change than they were before.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Again, the issue isn't with the caster classes, it's with specific spells. Honestly, the "fix" I'd like to see is giving it some more spirit themed spells and/or class features.

Warlock.
The issue with Spirit Shaman isn't the spells, it's the clunky casting mechanic.

[Telonius]

Again, the issue isn't with the caster classes, it's with specific spells. Honestly, the "fix" I'd like to see is giving it some more spirit themed spells and/or class features.

Warlock.

d8 blast, can change invocations, shape/essence improves automatically*, Hideous Blow = Eldritch Glaive.

*Choose from a menu by level, doesn't count against Invocation total.

Grappling

[Cosi]

The issue with Spirit Shaman isn't the spells, it's the clunky casting mechanic.

It's not really that clunky. It's just "prepare spells, then cast whichever ones you want". Honestly, it's probably less clunky than traditional prepared casting.

[Nifft]

It's not really that clunky. It's just "prepare spells, then cast whichever ones you want". Honestly, it's probably less clunky than traditional prepared casting.

This.

Spirit Shaman is significantly less clunky than most 3.x casters.

[Rawrawrawr]

d8 blast, can change invocations, shape/essence improves automatically*, Hideous Blow = Eldritch Glaive.

*Choose from a menu by level, doesn't count against Invocation total.

Grappling

Reduce size bonuses/penalties; FoM only gives Escape Artist bonus.

Eidolon (Ghostwalk)

[Cosi]

Reduce size bonuses/penalties; FoM only gives Escape Artist bonus.

I don't think that fixes grappling. The problems aren't really that the inputs are out of whack, it's that the process is too complicated to resolve. Maybe make it an opposed check to inflict the Immobilized condition on your target?

[Hecuba]

Reduce size bonuses/penalties; FoM only gives Escape Artist bonus.

Eidolon (Ghostwalk)

Allow feats to be changed daily and add partial ToB initiator progression.
(which is to say, the same thing you would do for fighter).

Cipher Adept

[Grod_The_Giant]

Allow feats to be changed daily and add partial ToB initiator progression.
(which is to say, the same thing you would do for fighter).

Cipher Adept
My goodness, that is spectacularly bland.

Full BAB, Monk damage, initiator progression (Diamond Mind, Setting Sun).

Apostle of Peace

[Nifft]

Evocation.

I've got a thread about fixing Evocation up here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?538328-Evocation-as-Meta-Spells

[Menzath]

My goodness, that is spectacularly bland.

Full BAB, Monk damage, initiator progression (Diamond Mind, Setting Sun).

Apostle of Peace

+To divine caster level(cleric casting if none), mnk AC, free subdual damage on all, 3/4 BAB


AC/touch AC

[rel]

AC/touch AC

touch AC now equals regular AC

teleportation spells

[Cosi]

teleportation spells

40ft stone blocks any longer-than-long range spell.

Dragonmarks.

[Nifft]

Dragonmarks.

Expanded SLA choices with levels; caster level is half HD.


Forgery.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Forgery.
Appraise or relevant Profession can oppose; use Bluff's believability modifiers.

Diplomacy.

[Bakkan]

Diplomacy.

Creatures' attitudes cannot change more than one step per day.

Ninja

[Cosi]

Ninja

Rogue/Swordsage Gestalt.

Duskblade.

[ben-zayb]

Creatures' attitudes cannot change more than one step per day.

Ninjause preview post to see if someone already respondedvery appropriate

Use Sneak Attack, Unarmed scaling, and Shadow Hand / Tiger Claw / Diamond Mind progression


Scout

[Cosi]

Scout

(Mystic) Ranger Gestalt.

Samurai.

[rel]

Samurai.

smite at will. class features appear at normal lvl / 2.

animate dead

[Cosi]

animate dead

Minions as Leadership. Only one set of minions per character.

flaming sphere

[SirNibbles]

Minions as Leadership. Only one set of minions per character.

flaming sphere

Remove "stops moving for the round and".

_

Jester

[Zaq]

Jester

Light armor, thematically appropriate non-Core spells from the Bard list, and feats/abilities that affect Bardic Music affect Jester's Performance in analogous ways.

Spell-to-Power Erudite.

[SirNibbles]

Light armor, thematically appropriate non-Core spells from the Bard list, and feats/abilities that affect Bardic Music affect Jester's Performance in analogous ways.

Spell-to-Power Erudite.

That's way more than 10 words!

Light armour, bard spells, Bardic Music enhancers affect Jester's Performance.

[Nifft]

Spell-to-Power Erudite.

Expend spell research time & XP for each spell.

~ alternate ~

Ban all versions of Erudite; Psion is fine as-is.


Epic Spellcasting

[NecroDancer]

Expend spell research time & XP for each spell.

~ alternate ~

Ban all versions of Erudite; Psion is fine as-is.


Epic Spellcasting

Give martials something equal (like at will bullet time/action movie physics).

Too many skills

[Nifft]

I love the idea of action movie physics as the Epic Level Martial fix.


Too many skills

Broader skills, with some overlap: Athletics, Acrobatics, Stealth, Perception, etc.


Baby Orcs

[Blue Jay]

Baby Orcs

Don't kill them: they're innocent? (I don't actually know what you mean here)

Savant

[Inevitability]

Improve spellcasting and sneak attack, give ability to damage SA-immunes.

Duskblade

[Cosi]

Duskblade

Gestalt with Warmage. Give spells to get into Gish PrCs like Swiftblade or Knight Phantom.

Knight.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Gestalt with Warmage. Give spells to get into Gish PrCs like Swiftblade or Knight Phantom.

Knight.
Gestalt with Marshal; double Challenge/Major Aura bonuses; remove Code.

Lurk

[Nifft]

Don't kill them: they're innocent? (I don't actually know what you mean here) The question was: what do you do with them, after killing their parents?

"Don't kill them" is ... er, as plans go it's not the most comprehensive.

[Telonius]

The question was: what do you do with them, after killing their parents?

"Don't kill them" is ... er, as plans go it's not the most comprehensive.

Fund a daycare, come back in 15 years for your army.

[Nifft]

Fund a daycare, come back in 15 years for your army.

Now THIS is a viable plan.

Call it the Jr. Reserve Orc Training Corps.

[Zaq]

Lurk

6+INT skills, more augments/day, "tax" augments don't take choice slots.

Wild Shape

[Telonius]

I actually pulled something like that in a Shackled City campaign. Vow of Poverty Monk (... yeah, it was over a decade ago... ) who donated his entire share of the loot to the Lantern Street Orphanage. Eventually it got so impressive and well-funded that well-off parents were leaving their kids at the doorstep deliberately, and I had a network of Lantern Street Irregulars as my Followers from Leadership.

[Cosi]

Wild Shape

No longer a Druid ability. Now only on Wild Shape Ranger.

Survivor.

[Bakkan]

Wild Shape

Give choice: half-speed Wild Shape progression or Bard casting progression.

Healer

[Cosi]

Healer

Play a Cleric instead?

permanency

[Nifft]

Lurk
Real sneak attack, free scaling Augments, longer duration powers.


Wild Shape
Ban Natural Spell.


Survivor.
Now a Martial Initiator PrC; grants Setting Sun maneuvers / stances.


permanency
Dispel Magic only suppresses for 1d4 rounds; your XP is safe.



Awaken

[Cosi]

Proposal: no "just ban it" posts. Or at least, without explanation of why you think it can't be fixed.


Awaken

Now sets rather than increases all attributes. No bonus HD.

Archivist.

[Blue Jay]

Healer

Spontaneous casting. Add all abjuration & healing spells to list.


Proposal: no "just ban it" posts. Or at least, without explanation of why you think it can't be fixed.

Addendum: And no "play X instead" posts, either.


Archivist.

Cleric spell list only. No druid or domain spells.

Ninja

[Cosi]

Spontaneous casting. Add all abjuration & healing spells to list.

That's a good deal more than the other spontaneous casters get, though from lists that are probably worse.


Addendum: And no "play X instead" posts, either.

Fair. Also, I think more discussion of suggested fixes would be cool.

[Nifft]

Spontaneous casting. Add all abjuration & healing spells to list. Bit if a nerf, since you remove easy Sanctified spell access.

Maybe something like: you can prepare spells from some small buff / utility list (which allows Sanctified) and you can spontaneously convert prepared slots into this other list of healing spells.

Basically like the Cleric mechanic (prep for combat, spontaneously cure) -- except you have worse options for preparation in trade for better spontaneous cure options.


Cleric spell list only. No druid or domain spells. Too much of a nerf for me.

Removing Domains would be fine, or even restricting to basic Cleric + Druid + Ranger + Paladin access (thus not allowing every new random divine PrC to expand the Archivist list).



Fair. Also, I think more discussion of suggested fixes would be cool. Here, have some discussion. :smallsmile:

Let's see if discussion disrupts the rhythm too much.

[SirNibbles]

Proposal: no "just ban it" posts. Or at least, without explanation of why you think it can't be fixed.


Addendum: And no "play X instead" posts, either.


Fair. Also, I think more discussion of suggested fixes would be cool.

It'd help if people were a bit more direct (though it's hard in 10 words). Just saying 'make X ability better/more' as your fix (which a lot of people have done) doesn't help because you can't quantify those effects. It's like if the Dodge feat just said 'You can avoid attacks better'.

Some examples:


Improve spellcasting and sneak attack, give ability to damage SA-immunes. Savant


Give martials something equal (like at will bullet time/action movie physics). Epic Spells


Reduce size bonuses/penalties Grapple

Compare that to these:


Creatures' attitudes cannot change more than one step per day. Diplomacy


Gestalt with Marshal; double Challenge/Major Aura bonuses; remove Code. Knight


Remove prerequisite feats, add full casting advancement. Fleet Runner of Ehlonna

The latter three fixes listed can be implemented without the DM having to actually decide what the details are- they're already decided. Vague answers like 'improve', 'reduce', and 'give them something' are somewhat helpful for discussion purposes of which direction we should go, but it still doesn't allow a direct plug-and-play.

[Blue Jay]

Bit if a nerf, since you remove easy Sanctified spell access.

Then maybe I'd amend to this: "Spontaneous casting. Add all abjuration, healing and sanctified spells to the list."


Too much of a nerf for me.

Removing Domains would be fine, or even restricting to basic Cleric + Druid + Ranger + Paladin access (thus not allowing every new random divine PrC to expand the Archivist list).

Maybe this then: "No domain spells. Spells on the cleric list cannot be learned from a different list."

(Early spell access is a pet peeve of mine).

----

Also, I proposed Ninja last, but someone already did that. So, let's do something else.

Maybe... Spellthief?

[Cosi]

Removing Domains would be fine, or even restricting to basic Cleric + Druid + Ranger + Paladin access (thus not allowing every new random divine PrC to expand the Archivist list).

The Archivist is inherently problematic to balance. If all it gets is Cleric spells, it's just a worse Cleric. Frankly, it's probably worse than the Cleric in most practical situations even as-is. But if you give it big enough access, it gains access to very stupid tricks when you allow it to plunder under-leveled spells from weird lists. That's an interesting thing, but I think the Chameleon is a better fit for it (also, it's probably not really good to a sufficient degree for it to be worth keeping around).


Spellthief?

Sorcerer spellcasting. One native spell known per level. Can cast stolen spells/SLAs for one week after theft.

holy word line of spells

[Malimar]

Factotum.
Arcane Dilettante gets real spell progression & is any arcane/divine/psionic/martial spells/powers/maneuvers.
OR ALTERNATIVELY
Buttloads more inspiration.


Paladin
Smite per encounter. Choose CHA or WIS for abilities/spellcasting.


Samurai.
Gestalt CW Samurai with OA Samurai.


Maybe... Spellthief?
Can steal a broader range of abilities than just spells.
(I dunno, I don't think of Spellthief as being in all that much need of fixing.)



Sha'ir?

[Cosi]

Gestalt CW Samurai with OA Samurai.

I don't think that's good enough. Probably needs some extra juice from ToB or something.


Sha'ir?

Spirit Shaman style casting. Elemental "animal companion" that eventually evolves into a genie.

polar ray

[Malimar]

I don't think that's good enough. Probably needs some extra juice from ToB or something.
If I wanted to completely fix Samurai, I'd probably also give either a maneuver progression or some class features pertaining to iajutsu focus, but that's a bit vague for this thread.

[Menzath]

Arcane Dilettante gets real spell progression & is any arcane/divine/psionic/martial spells/powers/maneuvers.
OR ALTERNATIVELY
Buttloads more inspiration.


Smite per encounter. Choose CHA or WIS for abilities/spellcasting.


Gestalt CW Samurai with OA Samurai.


Can steal a broader range of abilities than just spells.
(I dunno, I don't think of Spellthief as being in all that much need of fixing.)



Sha'ir?

Remove spells known, prepping spells is 1d4+spell lvl rounds for arcane, and mins for divine. Failed diplomacy doubles time. Gen gain bonuses similar to animal companion, but at -4lvl rate.


Save or I win spells and abilities.

[Bakkan]

Save or I win spells and abilities.

How to we feel about responses of "leave as is?" Obviously people will disagree on whether or not something needs fixing; is there value to the thread in seeing responses from people who say it doesn't (e.g. me in this case)?

[Cosi]

Save or I win spells and abilities.

Broadly agree that this is not inherently a problem. That said, if you did want a "fix", I would go with: "people above half HP take 10/15/20 on saves." That forces people do deal damage, but doesn't remove the use of Save or Dies, particularly against large numbers of enemies.

[Nifft]

The Archivist is inherently problematic to balance. If all it gets is Cleric spells, it's just a worse Cleric. Frankly, it's probably worse than the Cleric in most practical situations even as-is. But if you give it big enough access, it gains access to very stupid tricks when you allow it to plunder under-leveled spells from weird lists. That's an interesting thing, but I think the Chameleon is a better fit for it (also, it's probably not really good to a sufficient degree for it to be worth keeping around).

The fix might be to establish a canonical spell level ordering:

Cleric > Druid > Paladin > Ranger (maybe +> all other PrCs, maybe not)

If you find the spell on the Cleric list, use the Cleric level.

If it's not on the Cleric list but it is on the Druid list, use the Druid level.

If it's not on the Cleric or Druid list but it is on the Paladin list, use the Paladin level.

(etc.)


IIRC this is how Pathfinder handles level discrepancies, though maybe not that specific order.

Since the Chameleon's whole bag is emulating whatever gets early-access, I don't begrudge them that access. They can keep cherry-picking from weird lists.

[Menzath]

Broadly agree that this is not inherently a problem. That said, if you did want a "fix", I would go with: "people above half HP take 10/15/20 on saves." That forces people do deal damage, but doesn't remove the use of Save or Dies, particularly against large numbers of enemies.

I feel that it's an issue, in that these spells and abilities can end the play experience for people, by either one shotting a player at start of combat, or ending the enemy at the start of combat. I think a game is more about the play experience, and not prematurely ending it.

[Bakkan]

I feel that it's an issue, in that these spells and abilities can end the play experience for people, by either one shotting a player at start of combat, or ending the enemy at the start of combat. I think a game is more about the play experience, and not prematurely ending it.

As a counterpoint, a significant part of the game is preparation, both in building your character and by making in-game choices. For those efforts to matter, it should sometimes be the case that characters fail because they didn't have sufficient defenses (bonuses, immunities, rerolls) and sometimes they should win handily (research the enemy, find scrolls of spells particularly effective against them).

[Alent]

Save or I win spells and abilities.

Rewrite the inflicted conditions to require stacking multiple SoLs.

Battledancer.

[Nifft]

As a counterpoint, a significant part of the game is preparation, both in building your character and by making in-game choices. For those efforts to matter, it should sometimes be the case that characters fail because they didn't have sufficient defenses (bonuses, immunities, rerolls) and sometimes they should win handily (research the enemy, find scrolls of spells particularly effective against them).

I agree with this in principle, but I don't think that winning via research should mean one-roll-victory (or one-roll-defeat).

I feel like there's a lot of design space in which preparation & research matter, but also in which teamwork matters.

[Menzath]

I agree with this in principle, but I don't think that winning via research should mean one-roll-victory (or one-roll-defeat).

I feel like there's a lot of design space in which preparation & research matter, but also in which teamwork matters.


As a counterpoint, a significant part of the game is preparation, both in building your character and by making in-game choices. For those efforts to matter, it should sometimes be the case that characters fail because they didn't have sufficient defenses (bonuses, immunities, rerolls) and sometimes they should win handily (research the enemy, find scrolls of spells particularly effective against them).

And I agree that preparation should matter, but we need mechanics that work at all levels of play. I know when I was new to 3.5 I didn't build a high OP wizard who knew what to do all the time.
And I don't mind of its save or severe suck, but it shouldn't be an outright "win".

[Bakkan]

And I agree that preparation should matter, but we need mechanics that work at all levels of play. I know when I was new to 3.5 I didn't build a high OP wizard who knew what to do all the time.
And I don't mind of its save or severe suck, but it shouldn't be an outright "win".

I don't agree that all mechanics need to be applicable to all levels of play. I prefer restricting abilities game-by-game. e.g. "We're playing a teamwork-focused, mid-OP game, so save-or-loses aren't allowed". Keeping the save-or-lose abilities allows for a high-risk, high-reward game as another option, hence I don't see a need to change them.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Spirit Shaman style casting. Elemental "animal companion" that eventually evolves into a genie.polar ray

Remove spells known, prepping spells is 1d4+spell lvl rounds for arcane, and mins for divine. Failed diplomacy doubles time. Gen gain bonuses similar to animal companion, but at -4lvl rate.
Eh, the whole "access all Sorcerer/Wizard spells" bit is probably still too much. I'd say, "Knows domain spells and 2*normal table; prep from those." That keeps you from going too insane in terms of access.

On the Archivist, I stand by my original point of limiting it to Cleric and Druid spells. Allowing 4th level lists in any form is just asking for trouble, methinks; one way or another, you get underleveled spells-- even if you block dual-list ones, you still have unique spells that were intended to be higher level abilities.


Battledancer.
Gains Bardic Music; Dances become Musics. Springing Tiger at 6th.

Wilder

[XionUnborn01]

Broadly agree that this is not inherently a problem. That said, if you did want a "fix", I would go with: "people above half HP take 10/15/20 on saves." That forces people do deal damage, but doesn't remove the use of Save or Dies, particularly against large numbers of enemies.


I really like this idea. Maybe any spells that can instantly slay someone uses take 20 at full, take 10 at 3/4. Any save or suck uses take 15/take 5. That way you won't fail by rolling a 1 unless you've already been beaten.

[Blue Jay]

On the Archivist, I stand by my original point of limiting it to Cleric and Druid spells. Allowing 4th level lists in any form is just asking for trouble, methinks; one way or another, you get underleveled spells-- even if you block dual-list ones, you still have unique spells that were intended to be higher level abilities.

Yeah, I think I'm on board with this. But, the "cleric-level precedence" thing is still a palatable compromise for me.


(Battle Dancer) Gains Bardic Music; Dances become Musics. Springing Tiger at 6th.

What about "add Dervish abilities at half-progression rate; monk speed bonus"?

Still on Wilder (I don't know what to do with it).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Still on Wilder (I don't know what to do with it).

Educated wilder is automatic. Make Wild Surge less punitive.*

*I have ideas for that but 10 word limit.

Spelldancer

[TotallyNotEvil]

What's wrong with Spelldancer? You have a hard cap of adjustment levels you can wave away in the form of CON + Dancer level.

Dancer level + CON is the maximum rounds of dancing per day.

Sorcerer

[Zaq]

Still on Wilder (I don't know what to do with it).
Double powers known; Enervation dazes or costs PP (not both).


Educated wilder is automatic. Make Wild Surge less punitive.*

*I have ideas for that but 10 word limit.

Spelldancer

Hard cap on reduction; cost ability burn rather than fatigue.

Synchronicity

[Cosi]

Synchronicity

Make the loss of the standard action part of the effect of the power rather than its cost.

Shugenja.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Make the loss of the standard action part of the effect of the power rather than its cost.

Shugenja.
"Remove cross-element prohibition, add more elemental Druid spells" does a good job, methnks. "Know all order+element+"all" spells, plus one other/level" works too. Really, the only issue is that you have to focus in a bad element if you want to access both good ones.

Uncanny Forethought

[Cosi]

Uncanny Forethought

No adjustment to casting time.

celerity

[Zaq]

Uncanny Forethought

Limit use to a max of 1 / spell level / day, and full-round action is minimum rather than maximum casting time.




celerity

Change "dazed" to "lose your next turn" (or another clause that can't be cheesed around with immunity).

Alternate: make it a swift action rather than an immediate (turning it into just diet Time Stop instead of diet Time Stop that can interrupt someone else's turn).

Polymorph Any Object

[ben-zayb]

No adjustment to casting time.

celerity
Make it level 8, remove greater version, ignores daze immunity


Rage Mage

[Cosi]

Rage Mage

Full casting and BAB. All rages are spell rages. Spell rage grants free Empower Spell.

Wu Jen.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Full casting and BAB. All rages are spell rages. Spell rage grants free Empower Spell.

Wu Jen.
What's wrong with the Wu Jen? Apart from having near-Wizard-level spellcasting power, which I know you don't see as an issue.

[Cosi]

What's wrong with the Wu Jen? Apart from having near-Wizard-level spellcasting power, which I know you don't see as an issue.

The same thing that's wrong with every caster -- almost no class features aside from spells. The Wu Jen is slightly better than normal, but still not great.

That said, to some degree I'm asking as much to see what people see as problems as to get solutions. I already know how I would fix most problems, and the problem with those solutions is generally that the require a good deal of effort (for example, more ToB-ish stuff for martials).

[Grod_The_Giant]

The same thing that's wrong with every caster -- almost no class features aside from spells. The Wu Jen is slightly better than normal, but still not great.

That said, to some degree I'm asking as much to see what people see as problems as to get solutions. I already know how I would fix most problems, and the problem with those solutions is generally that the require a good deal of effort (for example, more ToB-ish stuff for martials).
It's pretty hard to fix "no class features" in ten words, sadly. My quick-improvement for prepared casters would probably be something like "[god/nature/spellbook] can only [grant/hold] 5 different spells/unmodified caster level." A high enough limit that they can fit plenty of situational spells, but low enough that they're under some sort of control, and that the DM knows what sorts of things to plan for.

[Cosi]

It's pretty hard to fix "no class features" in ten words, sadly. My quick-improvement for prepared casters would probably be something like "[god/nature/spellbook] can only [grant/hold] 5 different spells/unmodified caster level." A high enough limit that they can fit plenty of situational spells, but low enough that they're under some sort of control, and that the DM knows what sorts of things to plan for.

I think the Wizard specifically is fine. You genuinely don't have enough money to get "all the spells" unless you're breaking WBL, and if you're doing that there are better things to do with your infinite money than "learn more spells".

For the Cleric and Druid, I would prefer "get all spells from core, get <some fixed number> of non-core spells". That way you guarantee access to the "fix up the party" spells, but still limit spells somewhat, and their spell acquisition mechanic is at least dangerous.

[SirNibbles]

I think the Wizard specifically is fine. You genuinely don't have enough money to get "all the spells" unless you're breaking WBL, and if you're doing that there are better things to do with your infinite money than "learn more spells".

For the Cleric and Druid, I would prefer "get all spells from core, get <some fixed number> of non-core spells". That way you guarantee access to the "fix up the party" spells, but still limit spells somewhat, and their spell acquisition mechanic is at least dangerous.

I think not having many class features is supposed to represent the amount of time it takes to learn spells.

Characters can have:
BAB
Bigger HD
Saves
Skills
Spells
Abilities

Each thing takes time to train. Spells take a ton of time, at the expense of the other class features.

That's just my thinking. Along that line of thinking, I think Sorcerers should have a ton of class features, since they don't really have to learn their spells.

[Cosi]

Each thing takes time to train. Spells take a ton of time, at the expense of the other class features.

That's just my thinking. Along that line of thinking, I think Sorcerers should have a ton of class features, since they don't really have to learn their spells.

That places too much emphasis on verisimilitude over balance. You want characters to be balanced, and you want them to be varied, and that means either giving them selectable class features (which means giving the Wizard class features) or letting them take PrCs (which is equivalent to giving the Wizard class but slightly more complicated, because PrCs that cost caster levels is a dog that will not hunt).

To get the ball rolling again:

White Raven Tactics

[Zaq]

White Raven Tactics

Cannot use on self; works only 1/target/encounter.

I still don't think we had a discussion on Polymorph Any Object.

[Bakkan]

White Raven Tactics

A character can only benefit from this maneuver once/round.

This is, I think, the only way to eliminate the possibility for infinite turns per round without changing the initiating classes significantly. The once/round part could be changed to twice or three times per round if one wanted to marginally increase the power of the maneuver.

Warmage

[Cosi]

I still don't think we had a discussion on Polymorph Any Object.

I don't think a real fix is possible without overhauling a whole lot more than a sentence's worth of stuff. That said, if I had to pick, I would do:

6th level slot. Close range. Choice of polymorph or baleful polymorph at cast time.

That's probably better, but it's still nowhere close to good.


A character can only benefit from this maneuver once/round.

Seems like a pretty solid fix. I suppose you could make it "a character can only use this maneuver once/round" which would allow something like a bunch of mooks that give a boss monster extra actions (which is a potentially interesting tactical dynamic).


Warmage

In Combat: some free metamagic. Maybe also some buff spells
Out of Combat: I'm fond of giving it a big list of logistical utility spells like create food and water, remove disease, teleport, and the various shelter-creating spells. Maybe some flashy stuff at high levels like 7th level travel-only gate.

Dread Pirate.

[Zaq]

Dread Pirate.

Make it a base class.

EDIT: Next task: Persist Spell

[Lans]

It's pretty hard to fix "no class features" in ten words, sadly. My quick-improvement for prepared casters would probably be something like "[god/nature/spellbook] can only [grant/hold] 5 different spells/unmodified caster level." A high enough limit that they can fit plenty of situational spells, but low enough that they're under some sort of control, and that the DM knows what sorts of things to plan for.

Pick prc, add features at the rate it advances casting

[SirNibbles]

Make it a base class.

EDIT: Next task: Persist Spell

Benefit: Your Extended Spells last 3x longer instead of 2x.


Centaur

[Blue Jay]

Benefit: Your Extended Spells last 3x longer instead of 2x.

Centaur

Ooh, I love centaurs! I have a whole list of things I'd like to change, but here's what I think is most important:

"Attacks as Medium, 3 RHD, LA +0, no Int penalty"

I guess it's more of a nerf than a fix, but it's more playable, and I really hate Large (long).

Here's the full list of stuff I like to change:
+6 Str, +4 Con (replaces MM ability mods)
Counts as Humanoid for spells, effects and prereqs
Counts as a Medium creature for attack rolls, weapon size and grapple checks
Hooves are primary (still 1d6 damage)
3 RHD, LA +0

-----

How about another monster:

Vampire

[AvatarVecna]

Vampire

LA +5, now affected by Glitterdust in sunlight instead of being harmed.

Sorcerer.

[Nifft]

LA +5, now affected by Glitterdust in sunlight instead of being harmed. BOO THIS MAN!

BOO HIM!


Sorcerer.

- Slots @ odd;
- Metamagic @ x5;
- Restore some multipurpose spells.

[Cosi]

Sorcerer.

The Sorcerer's big problem is that while it has a reasonable primary shtick, it doesn't have anything to back that up.

The obvious answer is to just give it more spells. Like three times as many when you get a new level, and twice as many when you get new ones. So you end up with 7 to 11 spells at each level, which should probably be enough to make up for lower long term versatility.

Of course, that doesn't solve the other problem -- the total lack of class features. You could go with a bunch of bonus Reserve Feats and Heritage Feats, plus maybe stuff like free Still/Silent/Eschew to emphasize the innate aspect of the magic. Maybe give them SLA limited wish as a capstone.

You could go another direction and let them gestalt with one of the weaker pseudo-casters like Shadowcaster or Truenamer, which gets you some utility and also makes those classes better.

Also, it should be the same progression as Wizard.

Any of those would be reasonable choices for a Sorcerer fix.

polymorph

[AvatarVecna]

BOO THIS MAN!

BOO HIM!

*collects salt to sell to McDonalds*

[Seerow]

polymorph

You can only transform into animals with CR half your caster level.



Blasting Spells

[Cosi]

Blasting Spells

Use this list (http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=6) for spell levels. Write some new 9ths.

Or maybe something like free Empower/Maximize on all blasting spells.

In-Combat Healing.

[Nifft]

*collects salt to sell to McDonalds*
I suspect the salt over Twilight Vampires would be of sufficient quantity that it could be mined.


The Sorcerer's big problem is that while it has a reasonable primary shtick, it doesn't have anything to back that up.

The obvious answer is to just give it more spells. Like three times as many when you get a new level, and twice as many when you get new ones. So you end up with 7 to 11 spells at each level, which should probably be enough to make up for lower long term versatility.

Of course, that doesn't solve the other problem -- the total lack of class features. You could go with a bunch of bonus Reserve Feats and Heritage Feats, plus maybe stuff like free Still/Silent/Eschew to emphasize the innate aspect of the magic. Maybe give them SLA limited wish as a capstone.

You could go another direction and let them gestalt with one of the weaker pseudo-casters like Shadowcaster or Truenamer, which gets you some utility and also makes those classes better. Sorcerer suffered a lot from the 3.5e meta, which seemed to push spells into ever-narrower niches.

3.0e had spells like Emotion which covered the same design space as ~4 spells in 3.5e, and even relatively specific spells like 3.0e Otiluke's Freezing Sphere became multiple spells in 3.5e.

Sorcerer needs a fundamental re-design to keep up with the 3.5e meta.

Some options might be:

- Spell Packages where you get a high number of thematically related spells, which include a lot of second-string spells that wouldn't otherwise make the cut for a Sorcerer's small number of spells known, but taken together they represent a balanced basket of value.

- Non-spell powers like Maneuvers or Invocations which provide sufficient basic utility that a Sorcerer can contribute even when her narrow spell selection isn't applicable. Gestalting with Dragonfire Adept or Warlock, for example, covers enough utility niches that a Sorcerer can focus on being truly good at something more specific.

- Sorcerer-only spells which provide more utility per spell known. Unfortunately these would probably be a no-brainer so there would need to be some kind of limit on them -- like you can only learn them using a Sorcerer class feature, so there's a strict limit on how many total you can get.



polymorph
Forms provide ability score bonus on top of your own.

[Blue Jay]

LA +5, now affected by Glitterdust in sunlight instead of being harmed.

BOO THIS MAN!

BOO HIM!

I didn't even catch that: I was thinking, "Okay, debuff instead of die: not a bad idea." Derp. :smallbiggrin:


In-Combat Healing.

"Swift-action cure spells"

Energy-damage weapon properties (e.g., flaming, frost, etc.)

[Nifft]

Energy-damage weapon properties (e.g., flaming, frost, etc.)

I've never seen those described as problematic.

Can you explain the problem(s) a bit?

[Alent]

I didn't even catch that: I was thinking, "Okay, debuff instead of die: not a bad idea." Derp. :smallbiggrin:



"Swift-action cure spells"

Energy-damage weapon properties (e.g., flaming, frost, etc.)

The Bonus Dice of Energy Damage Weapon Properties are cumulative.

Item Familiar

[Blue Jay]

I've never seen those described as problematic.

Can you explain the problem(s) a bit?

People seem to think they're weak compared to other +1 bonus properties you could get.

Do you think that's not the case?

[atemu1234]

This thread is inspiring me to go back to my project of updating all PrCs to Pathfinder and rebalancing them.

Dragonborn (Water Orc)

[daremetoidareyo]

Dragonborn (Water Orc)


Balance non- Water orcs ability bonuses better, make tiamat-born an option,

[Nifft]

People seem to think they're weak compared to other +1 bonus properties you could get.

Do you think that's not the case?

I think it depends on your monster palette.

In a game focused around Outsiders who have 3+ energy resistances each, they're probably not worth it.

But I've seen them recommended often enough that I never considered them to be too weak.

After MIC came out, they seem to have disappeared from the meta -- but I think that's because SpC spells and weapon crystals took over their niche, and now you'd get people with weapon crystals that emulate the +1d6 damage effects but which could be tailored to expected encounters, or with a spell that did the same thing but could be cast only as needed.

So I don't know if the +1 weapon effects need fixing so much as they're a bit obsolete. That's fine. Silver weapons exist in parallel to the Sure Striking enhancement. +4 weapons exist in parallel to the greater magic weapon spell. Having effects that are a bit obsolete isn't too terrible.


If you think those effects are too weak, here's what you could do:

1/ Don't use monsters which resist a large number of energy types.

2/ Add some vulnerabilities to those energy types; specifically, some of the weaker 4e style vulnerabilities. Like, a Zombie might have Electricity Vulnerable 5, which means every time it takes Electricity damage, add 5 to that damage. A particularly oily or fluffy monster might have Fire Vulnerable 5. Sprinkle those on liberally, since they tend to NOT reward one-big-hit magic-users as much as they reward lots-of-little-hits weapon-users.

[Blue Jay]

I liked this thread: it was fun to see what people were coming up with off the top of their heads. I guess it's kind of died down now, but I'd still like to comment on some of my favorite ideas that came from this (and some opinions or discussion points otherwise).

Battle Dancer: Grod suggested a bard-like concept for this class, but I was thinking of a more melee-focused idea. I started a homebrew idea that gave a "Battle Dance" ability that worked like a hybrid of rage, dervish dance and bardic music: basically, some minor ability boosts, move while full attacking (and flurrying), and you can try to impose temporary status effects on creatures you successfully Tumble past, using Bardic Music and the Cloaked Dancer's Enchanting Dances as the basis.

Dwarven Defender: I didn't really like the suggested fixes here: instead of basically taking away the "immobile defender" archetype, I'd like to see a viable way to make the archetype work. I would have started with "move at half speed while in Defensive Stance," and tried to work from there. I feel like the class could make decent use of readied actions that way, so you'd improve your battlefield control. Deadly Defense (like the duelist gets) would be thematically appropriate, too. And incorporating it into a build with Grod's knight/marshal gestalt might make a reasonably viable character (provided you started with one of the dwarf subraces that doesn't take a Cha penalty).

Jester: A couple people suggested ways of making a jester work like a bard. What would you guys think of just making jester a variant bard with Jester's Performance replacing Bardic Music? I feel like the jester's abilities are more restricted and situational than the bard's, so maybe it would be a weaker variant of the bard.

Knight: Grod suggested a gestalt with marshal. This really sounds cool to me: the synergy there is really good. I brewed up a class with a friend at Myth-Weavers that combines paladin and marshal, and sprinkles in some knight and samurai abilities.

-----

Also, if anyone wanted to start this up again, I don't think we ever got definitive fix suggestions for Item Familiar? I've never used one, so I have no idea.

[Jormengand]

Item Familiar: Rewrite it so that it just does what normal familiars do except it's an item.

Next up, how about Disciple of the Word? That's always a fun one. :smalltongue:

[Nifft]

Item Familiar: Rewrite it so that it just does what normal familiars do except it's an item.

Deliver touch spells: "If only my hat had a fly speed..."

Speak with items of its kind: "Tell me your secrets, ugly hat."

Seriously, though, what were you thinking about in terms of useful effects?

[Jormengand]

Deliver touch spells: "If only my hat had a fly speed..."

Speak with items of its kind: "Tell me your secrets, ugly hat."

Seriously, though, what were you thinking about in terms of useful effects?

DTS can work if your item familiar is, say, a sword (or if your item familiar is a hat, go full Oddjob on it). And speak with items of its kind could be similar to Stone Tell where it allows normally non-sentient objects to talk.

Also the ugly hat could at least tell your familiar what house a student was in... :smalltongue:

[Grod_The_Giant]

Battle Dancer:[/B] Grod suggested a bard-like concept for this class, but I was thinking of a more melee-focused idea. I started a homebrew idea that gave a "Battle Dance" ability that worked like a hybrid of rage, dervish dance and bardic music: basically, some minor ability boosts, move while full attacking (and flurrying), and you can try to impose temporary status effects on creatures you successfully Tumble past, using Bardic Music and the Cloaked Dancer's Enchanting Dances as the basis.
Oh, you could definitely come up with a bunch of unique dances, and that's probably the better solution. (Though my preference would be to work in some more buffing/magical type stuff, just because that makes a more interesting character). You just... can't really do that in 10 words.


Dwarven Defender: I didn't really like the suggested fixes here: instead of basically taking away the "immobile defender" archetype, I'd like to see a viable way to make the archetype work. I would have started with "move at half speed while in Defensive Stance," and tried to work from there. I feel like the class could make decent use of readied actions that way, so you'd improve your battlefield control. Deadly Defense (like the duelist gets) would be thematically appropriate, too. And incorporating it into a build with Grod's knight/marshal gestalt might make a reasonably viable character (provided you started with one of the dwarf subraces that doesn't take a Cha penalty).
If you're going to melee, you've got two options: go to your enemies, or make your enemies come to you. If the Dwarven Defender is going to be an immobile-tank, they need some way to control the flow of enemy combatants-- aggro-auras, enhanced reach, the ability to shelter allies, whatever. Maybe something like "when in Stance, enemies within 5*lv ft must move towards you."


Jester: A couple people suggested ways of making a jester work like a bard. What would you guys think of just making jester a variant bard with Jester's Performance replacing Bardic Music? I feel like the jester's abilities are more restricted and situational than the bard's, so maybe it would be a weaker variant of the bard.
The Jester stacks up fine with the base Bard; their only real issue is that they don't get access to all the awesome splatbook stuff. Your idea loses their altered spell list, which contains a lot of the "evil Bard" flavor.


Knight: Grod suggested a gestalt with marshal. This really sounds cool to me: the synergy there is really good. I brewed up a class with a friend at Myth-Weavers that combines paladin and marshal, and sprinkles in some knight and samurai abilities.
Marshal + any full-BAB martial is a good combination, in my opinion. It gives you a decent boost to noncombat stuff along with a small combat boost and a bunch of flavor.


Also, if anyone wanted to start this up again, I don't think we ever got definitive fix suggestions for Item Familiar? I've never used one, so I have no idea.
Remove Invest abilities; sentience at 3rd, special abilities every 3rd.


Next up, how about Disciple of the Word? That's always a fun one. :smalltongue:
Grant full Truenaming advancement.

Necrocarnate

[Zaq]

Necrocarnate

Grant (reduced) essentia progression; put level-based cap on (whatever the name is of the "suck essentia from a bag of rats" ability).

Blighter

[Nifft]

Blighter

Move abilities / restrictions into a Druid-specific feat or template.

Then you'd just be taking Druid levels, except you'd get anti-nature undead-powers and spells -- at the appropriate level, since you're just taking Druid levels which grants a sane (... by T1 standards ...) progression.


Half-Orc :thog:

[rferries]

Half-Orc: +2 Strength, +2 Con, -2 Intelligence, human bonus skill points.

Alter Self.

[Jormengand]

Give it a whitelist rather than blanket allowing entire types.

Astral Projection

[Bakkan]

Astral Projection

Focus instead of material component, 8 hour duration.

Spell Thematics

[Grod_The_Giant]

Focus instead of material component, 8 hour duration.

Spell Thematics
That still leaves all the "copy consumable items" and risk-free adventuring cheese, though. I'd say something like "Lose 1 level if astral body dies, items aren't copied" works better.

[Bakkan]

That still leaves all the "copy consumable items" and risk-free adventuring cheese, though. I'd say something like "Lose 1 level if astral body dies, items aren't copied" works better.

I agree having some language in there about items would be good, but with the level loss or similar penalty for death I'm concerned it would be too weak for a level 9 spell. In particular it would eliminate a lot of the current reason for casting it.

[Nifft]

Focus instead of material component, 8 hour duration. That's not a fix.


Spell Thematics That feat is now part of the base mechanics of spellcasting, and not a problem.

[Bakkan]

That's not a fix.


I suppose that depends on what you think is broken about it. I believe it's too cheap a cost for the effect (one spell for indefinite projection) so my fix increases its cost.

[Nifft]

I suppose that depends on what you think is broken about it. I believe it's too cheap a cost for the effect (one spell for indefinite projection) so my fix increases its cost.

A focus is not consumed.

You've REMOVED the cost.

[Bakkan]

A focus is not consumed.

You've REMOVED the cost.

I have significantly increased the cost in terms of spell slots available during the day. Before, a caster would just cast astral projection once, rest, and have his full complement of spells as well as having an extra life. With my proposal, he will be down at least one 9th level spell whenever he is astrally projected.

[Dimers]

I'm a little late to the game, but ...


Monk

"Add cleric or druid spells at bard rate. One domain."

[Nifft]

I have significantly increased the cost in terms of spell slots available during the day. Before, a caster would just cast astral projection once, rest, and have his full complement of spells as well as having an extra life. With my proposal, he will be down at least one 9th level spell whenever he is astrally projected.

Okay, so you think the main benefit of Astral Projection is that you could in theory rest and regain the level 9 slot. The unlimited use of charged items, and the fact that you'd get your spells back after exiting the Astral, are not problems to you.



IMHO the unlimited use of charged items & recovery of spells is the major problem. Here's what I'd do to fix that:

- Spells cast while Astral are deducted from your spells prepared and/or slots available. You pay XP, components disappear from your real body, etc.

- 1k gp material component? Great, that's your pool for charged item uses.

- If you exceed that pool, you pay 1 XP per 5 gp expended.

- If you die while Astral, pay a price similar to what it would cost if you lost a Familiar (-200 XP * character level). Not as bad as real death + raise dead, but not free either.


Putting it into 10 words...

"Using items & death costs XP; 1k gp initial credit."

[TotallyNotEvil]

You'd have to measure out the cost for each charge tho. While that isn't hard, it's unnecessary busywork, which is no good.

[rferries]

May I humbly submit my astral projection fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?537722-Astral-Projection-(revised))?

[SirNibbles]

Well, someone forgot to say what to do next, so I'll start us off again.

Bugbear

[Luccan]

Well, someone forgot to say what to do next, so I'll start us off again.

Bugbear

Remove LA, potentially knock off a hit die and its benefits.

Goblins

[rferries]

Goblins: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma, +1 attack bonus against dwarves and elves, stonecunning as dwarves

Dryads

[Cosi]

Astral Projection

Your projection is a simulacrum. No item duplication. (Alternatively, if you play with wish economy rules, it could duplicate items under 15k GP).


Dryads

The dryad's abilities aren't that bad, really. I would totally take someone with at-will entangle and some mind control powers on adventures with me at 3rd level. There are three problems:

1. Because Dryads are caster monsters that don't get actual casting, they can't advance properly.
2. Dryads do have some SLAs that are kind of crazy at 3rd level if they're in the right environment.
3. Because Dryads have to stay with 300ft of their tree, they cannot go on adventures.

So as a fix:

ECL 4. 3rd level Druid casting with SLAs on list. Just have to be within 300ft of a piece of their tree.

Then you're a slightly crappy Druid with a "holy symbol". Ideally their list would be somewhere between Druid and Beguiler, but that's a little too much to put down.

Have we done Binder yet?

[Blue Jay]

Goblins: +2 Dexterity, -2 Charisma, +1 attack bonus against dwarves and elves, stonecunning as dwarves

Dryads

I assume you mean "dryads as PC's"? Because, they're actually quite good how they are, minus the Tree Dependency. But, that's easily fixable in a number of ways:

"acorn of far travel, 1/day"
"allow livewood tree."

Cloaked Dancer

(Ninja'd)

[Nifft]

Have we done Binder yet?
More Vestiges earlier; not all Vestiges may be max level.

So basically:

Binder 1: vestige levels: 1
Binder 3: vestige levels: 2
Binder 5: vestige levels: 3, 1
Binder 7: vestige levels: 4, 2
Binder 9: vestige levels: 5, 3
Binder 10: vestige levels: 5, 3, 1
Binder 12: vestige levels: 6, 4, 2
Binder 14: vestige levels: 7, 5, 3
Binder 15: vestige levels: 7, 5, 3, 1
Binder 17: vestige levels: 8, 6, 4, 2
Binder 19: vestige levels: 8, 7, 5, 3
Binder 20: vestige levels: 8, 7, 5, 3, 1

... or improve lower-level slots at different levels.

Improved Binding re-write for this: "One of your bound Vestiges may exceed the slot's maximum level by +1."



Cloaked Dancer


Full caster and Bardic Music progression (class features are garbage).


Incantatrix

[Grod_The_Giant]

Have we done Binder yet?
1 Vestige bound/5 levels, Pact Augmentation grants bonus feats.

From what I've heard, the class suffers most in the early-mid levels, when you're hitting the limits of what an unenhanced fighter-type and have to start working to optimize one specific vestige. Getting to bind a second one means that you can focus on one role while still switching things up, along with getting a power boost around the same time as everyone else is hitting 3rd level spells and iterative attacks. Getting floating bonus feats means that you're not stuck building around a single vestige-- you can grab a Sacred Healing when bind Tenebrous, switch to Mounted Combat when you pick up Andras, grab Ability Focus or a crafting cost reduction feat when you take Asteroth, and so on.


Incantatrix
We did that on the first page. You contributed, even.




Incantratix
Ban all FR caster PrCs, including Spelldancer and Cheater of Mystra and Spellfire Cheater and whatever others I forgot, but not that cool Barbarian-with-an-AMF class, because that one is cool.



Incantratix
Nuke from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.

Or, ditch Focused Specialist and all Metamagic-based features.

Montebank (DMC version)

[Alent]

I assume you mean "dryads as PC's"? Because, they're actually quite good how they are, minus the Tree Dependency. But, that's easily fixable in a number of ways:

"acorn of far travel, 1/day"
"allow livewood tree."

Cloaked Dancer

(Ninja'd)

I assumed he meant that, too, I was thinking this needed to be more aggressive, but it goes outside of the reach of single sentence fixes:

Dex +2, Con -2, Cha +2, LA +0.

Remove Racial HD, Natural Armor, Tree Dependent, Entangle, charm person, deep slumber, tree stride, and suggestion.

Reduce Wild Empathy racial bonus to +2, increase by +1 for every 4 HD the Dryad possesses, to a maximum of +6. Reduce DR to 1\Cold Iron at first HD, increasing by +1 every 3 HD (as barbarian?).

Gain perform as class skill, 1/day Fascinate as the bard class feature, and "Favored Tree", granting the PF Favored Terrain bonus within 300 feet of a chosen tree. Dryads add Barkskin, Charm Person, Deep Slumber, Entangle, Suggestion, and Tree Stride to the list of spells known for their first spellcasting class.

NPC dryads typically advance as Mystic Rangers. Any time a Dryad takes a level in a class that grants Favored Enemy, replace Favored Enemy with an additional Favored Tree.

Tactics: Dryads prefer to approach potential combat by casting Barkskin in advance, leading to the popular belief that their skin is actually bark. When taking levels in a class which prepares spells, Dryads typically prepare their racial spells known multiple times.

This seem reasonable? I wanted to scale the abilities like a Savage Progression Gestalt, but without the wonkiness of invoking Savage Species.

Mountebank

Mrr, can't fit this in 10 words: Mark of Damnation instead causes the infernal power's cult to raise the Mountebank with a mission on behalf of their dark master, this ability can not be used again until the mission is completed, Aspect of the Damned does not make you an NPC.

Extra Chakra Bind

[Nifft]

We did that on the first page. You contributed, even. No valid answer was under 10 words, though.


Extra Chakra Bind


Extra Chakra Bind [Epic]
You gain the ability to use more of your body's centers of power in conjunction with your soulmelds.
Prerequisite: Three chakra binds, ability to bind soulmelds to your lesser chakras.
Benefit: The number of chakras to which you can bind soulmelds increases by one.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times.


1/ It's an [Epic] feat; which
2/ Allows expansion of a class feature; and
3/ Seems pretty clearly aimed at multi-class characters who want more Incarnum now that they've finished their pre-Epic Wiz3/Inc2/Soulcaster10/PrC5 (or whatever).

So... honestly I don't see much of a problem. It expands a class feature which isn't going to compete in power against Epic Spellcasting, but nothing else possibly could. It's not going to compete against higher-level spell slots, so you apparently have enough of those already.

What's the problem with it?

[Alent]

1/ It's an [Epic] feat; which
2/ Allows expansion of a class feature; and
3/ Seems pretty clearly aimed at multi-class characters who want more Incarnum now that they've finished their pre-Epic Wiz3/Inc2/Soulcaster10/PrC5 (or whatever).

So... honestly I don't see much of a problem. It expands a class feature which isn't going to compete in power against Epic Spellcasting, but nothing else possibly could. It's not going to compete against higher-level spell slots, so you apparently have enough of those already.

What's the problem with it?

Derp, I typed the wrong feat name. I meant to type Open X Chakra. (Chosen because I remember there being three different possible interpretations of how the feats work.)

[Nifft]

Derp, I typed the wrong feat name. I meant to type Open X Chakra. (Chosen because I remember there being three different possible interpretations of how the feats work.)

"Got soulbinds? Spend one. No soulbinds? You get one, period."

So: feats don't stack with each other, you just get one soulbind from among your feat/power/spell opened chakras.

Also: your spell/power/feat-provided chakra bind lasts 24 hours, because Chameleon is good enough without longer-term BS.


Favor text could be something like...

"Every thinking being above a certain level of experience has the potential to bind one soulmeld. Obviously, those who specialize in meldshaping can far exceed this minimum competence, but the competence is there for those who master other pursuits."


Thrall of Demogorgon

[SirNibbles]

"Got soulbinds? Spend one. No soulbinds? You get one, period."

So: feats don't stack with each other, you just get one soulbind from among your feat/power/spell opened chakras.

Also: your spell/power/feat-provided chakra bind lasts 24 hours, because Chameleon is good enough without longer-term BS.


Favor text could be something like...

"Every thinking being above a certain level of experience has the potential to bind one soulmeld. Obviously, those who specialize in meldshaping can far exceed this minimum competence, but the competence is there for those who master other pursuits."


Thrall of Demogorgon

Dual Actions and Touch of Fear are 1/round Free Actions.

Fell Drain (Libris Mortis, page 27)

[Grod_The_Giant]

No valid answer was under 10 words, though.
Mine was-- "ditch Focused Specialist and all Metamagic-based features." 8 words and you've got a very mild wizard-plus who gets a few bonus metamagic feats and who can take over existing spells.

[Cosi]

For Incantatrix, I think just not having it apply to Persist and/or capping the uses/day more on Metamagic Effect might well do it.


Fell Drain (Libris Mortis, page 27)

I don't think this is broken, except in concert with metamagic reducers, and those are clearly broken in concert with other stuff, so I don't think this is what you should be fixing.

[Jormengand]

I think that fell drain is broken, mainly because it's written so badly that no-one's quite sure who takes how many negative levels and when. If it's only one per person ever, then it's somewhat mediocre - usable with hail of stone? - if it's one per person per hit then it's horribly powerful with magic missile and an instakill if you can land every hit of the shoddily-written chill touch (according to the Rules Compendium rule about instantaneous spells with multiple shots, anyway); if it's one per person per round in which they're hit then it's somewhat nasty with acid arrow (I'm sure there's a better example because acid arrow isn't a very good spell - thunderhead?).