Double Divine Grace?

[Jesterface]

So, I've been looking at a potential build for a new player in one of my IRL games. He's interested in playing a Paladin (I know, I know, sub-optimal) but he's new to 3.5, and I'm willing to help him be the best paladin he can be. One idea I had was to play Paladin of Freedom, dip Barbarian and go into Champion of Gwynharwyf (it kinda fits the game). Now, my question is, if he gets Divine Grace from both Paladin and Champion, do they stack? The bonus is untyped, obviously, so it would suggest so.

Guess this is kind if a RAI vs RAW issue?

[A_S]

RAW, this depends on what you decide the word "source" means. The relevant rule (SRD source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm)) is:

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession).
If you think the source of the Divine Grace bonus is "the character's Charisma modifier," then the two bonuses in question come from the same source, and don't stack. If you think the sources are "the Paladin class feature Divine Grace" and "the CoG class feature Divine Grace," then they're different sources and do stack. This has been argued about interminably, and as far as I know isn't clarified anywhere in the rules beyond what I've quoted here.

Fortunately, you're the DM, which means ruling on this kind of ambiguous case is part of your job. Given that it's a new player playing a not-terribly-strong class and you're looking to give him a leg up anyway...why not rule in his favor? It's not like this guy having really good saves is going to break the game.

[Necroticplague]

So, I've been looking at a potential build for a new player in one of my IRL games. He's interested in playing a Paladin (I know, I know, sub-optimal) but he's new to 3.5, and I'm willing to help him be the best paladin he can be. One idea I had was to play Paladin of Freedom, dip Barbarian and go into Champion of Gwynharwyf (it kinda fits the game). Now, my question is, if he gets Divine Grace from both Paladin and Champion, do they stack? The bonus is untyped, obviously, so it would suggest so.

No. Both of these come from the same source: the 'Divine Grace (SU)' ability.

[Vaern]

If you think the source of the Divine Grace bonus is "the character's Charisma modifier," then the two bonuses in question come from the same source, and don't stack. If you think the sources are "the Paladin class feature Divine Grace" and "the CoG class feature Divine Grace," then they're different sources and do stack. This has been argued about interminably, and as far as I know isn't clarified anywhere in the rules beyond what I've quoted here.

I'd say that two abilities with the exact same name with the exact same effect should be classified as two instances of the same source.

[noob]

So if I got divine grace and holy potato:each time you roll a save add your charisma to the result would I get twice my charisma to my saves?

[Necroticplague]

So if I got divine grace and holy potato:each time you roll a save add your charisma to the result would I get twice my charisma to my saves?

No. You would add your charisma bonus to your saves (as per holy potato), and you would add an untyped bonus equal to your charisma bonus to your saves as well (as per Divine Grace).

There's a big difference between adding a bonus to something equal to a stat bonus, and adding a stat bonus to something.

[Vaern]

Now you're just arguing semantics. The point is, you would still get the full effect of both Divine Grace and Holy Potato, as even though the effects are similar, they are from two distinctly different sources.

[A_S]

I'd say that two abilities with the exact same name with the exact same effect should be classified as two instances of the same source.
Huh, I've generally assumed that class features from different sources are separate, even if they're called the same thing. Would you also rule that a Paladin/CoG doesn't get two different Smite Evil abilities? Or is the fact that they're keyed off of different class levels enough to make them different class features?

[Necroticplague]

Now you're just arguing semantics. The point is, you would still get the full effect of both Divine Grace and Holy Potato, as even though the effects are similar, they are from two distinctly different sources.

1. I'm not arguing semantics (what words mean), I'm arguing minutia (the implications of minor details and differences).
2. In a RAW debate such as these, distinguishing fine minutia is a perfectly valid thing to do, since things can hinge on the minutia.
3. The effects are similar, yes, but not the same, in addition to them being from different sources.

[Gullintanni]

The best use of getting Double Divine Grace (IMHO) is to trade away Divine Grace for Cha to AC using the Paladin sub level in CoV, then re-acquiring Divine Grace. Then you get Cha to Saves and Cha to AC.

[KillianHawkeye]

Would you also rule that a Paladin/CoG doesn't get two different Smite Evil abilities? Or is the fact that they're keyed off of different class levels enough to make them different class features?

Using the rules for multiclass characters with replicated class features (the examples being cleric/paladin turn undead, barbarian/rogue uncanny dodge, and sorcerer/wizard familiar), I would say that you should combine your levels of the two classes to determine the strength of the Smite Evil ability, and probably just add the number of uses from your paladin and your prestige class levels to get your daily total number of uses.

[Jowgen]

Witch Hunter from OA gets "Kami's Grace (Su)", which is just Divine Grace, but by RAW it has a different name. So it can be done.

[Necroticplague]

Or is the fact that they're keyed off of different class levels enough to make them different class features?

You always have all class abilities. Even if you have both Divine Grace's, they don't combine to make one ability, they just don't stack (so if you're targeted by something that removes abilities, like Ability Rip, you have a backup). Similarly, a paladin/CoG has two completely separate Smite Evils: one based off their paladin levels, and one based off their CoG levels.

[A_S]

You always have all class abilities. Even if you have both Divine Grace's, they don't combine to make one ability, they just don't stack (so if you're targeted by something that removes abilities, like Ability Rip, you have a backup). Similarly, a paladin/CoG has two completely separate Smite Evils: one based off their paladin levels, and one based off their CoG levels.
This is how I have always ruled, but that same ruling leads me to conclude that the Paladin ability called "Divine Grace" and the CoG ability called "Divine Grace" are not the same ability, and therefore not the same source.

[EndocrineBandit]

I think the sohei or the shaman gets spirits grace, which is cha to saves as well. Throw on paladin, witch hunter, and iajutsu master and that will net you cha to saves x 3, cha to initiative, ac, and damage, plus a cha based skill check for a bunch of bonus damage dice.