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Manave_E_Sulanul
2007-08-14, 09:44 PM
My copy of Tome of Battle says that at level one a Swordsage gets 6+int modifier X6. This is obviously not the norm and I was wondering if this was errata-ed or purposely done to give the Swordsage quite a few extra skill points.

Madmal
2007-08-14, 10:05 PM
I'm pretty sure i't's an errata.

Abstruse
2007-08-14, 10:25 PM
Not officially errata'd as yet, no, but I'm pretty certain it's meant to be x4 the way that all the rest of the 1st level classes are.

Douglas
2007-08-14, 10:27 PM
Not errataed yet, but I'm quite certain that's only because WotC hasn't issued errata for Tome of Battle at all yet.

BCOVertigo
2007-08-14, 10:35 PM
Well I for one think the swordsage is so awesome that he's above your petty normalcy. You fighters and monks are just jealous and want to drag him back down to your level because being able to make decisions beyond how much to Power Attack for in a given turn and looking freakin' sweet while doing it are too cool to pass up, and now that he gets more skills too you might as well see if the DM gives roleplaying XP for ritual suicide.

But ya it's a typo, x4 at first level is standard fare.

Shhalahr Windrider
2007-08-14, 10:36 PM
Not errataed yet, but I'm quite certain that's only because WotC hasn't issued errata for Tome of Battle at all yet.
Haven't issued errata on a new product since Tome of Magic in March '06. Unless you count the bits of errata you have to pay for 'cause it's only done in reprinted material.

Glyphic
2007-08-14, 11:49 PM
My favorite little slip in Tome of Battle is Searing blade. It's a boost that makes all your melee attacks deal two extra dice plus level of fire damage, until the end of your current turn.


And it's initiation time is a Standard action.

Manave_E_Sulanul
2007-08-14, 11:50 PM
One can only hope it never is. ;)

I like the skills points.

Douglas
2007-08-14, 11:52 PM
I hadn't noticed that one. Of course, they also label it as a boost and state unequivocally on page 42 that ALL boosts are swift actions... Pretty easy to tell which rule was intended there.

skywalker
2007-08-14, 11:56 PM
It never occurred to me that that was a typo. I just thought it meant the swordsage got extra, cuz swordsages are awesome. Whoops. I just got done playing a swordsage too. He kicked ass. I guess I know part of the reason now, huh?

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 12:57 AM
It is a typo look at the sword sage human starting package on page 18 of ToB with 6 + Int mod for skills and the class skill list all with 4 ranks for choices except the cross class skill.

Reread the core rules regarding skills on page 61 of the PHB and the reason first level characters get that X4 multiplier not X6 multiplier.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 01:22 AM
Not a typo look at the sword sage human starting package and the class skill list.

The sword sage has 6 skill points because he has a D8, Average BAB and weaker Specials including light armor proficiency while knowing more manuevers compared to the Crusader with D10, Best BAB and 4 skill points or the Warblade with D12 and open bonus feats and better armor comparing non core builds.

The swordsage entry says x6 skill points at first level, not just 6+INT, which is what's being discussed.
And for the record, the swordsage's class features are juuuuuuuuuuuuust fine. The Warblade's actually the weakest of the three, IMO.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:52 AM
The swordsage entry says x6 skill points at first level, not just 6+INT, which is what's being discussed.
And for the record, the swordsage's class features are juuuuuuuuuuuuust fine. The Warblade's actually the weakest of the three, IMO.

I didn't say anything was wrong with the Sword Sage or the Warblade was the strongest.

Look at the first sentence you quoted me on. I noted the human sword sage starting package on page 18 of ToB showing an example sword sage. It clearly says that the Sword Sage receives 6 + Intelligence modifer skills.

SadisticFishing
2007-08-15, 01:56 AM
I didn't say anything was wrong with the Sword Sage or the Warblade was the strongest.

Read my first sentence I did note the human sword sage starting package which if you look over has listed that the Sword Sage receives those Intelligence modifer skills 23 minutes before you blasted me.

It is a non issue if you check out the example on page 18 for the Human Sword Sage starting package.

Those are rather unreliable, especially in that book. The Master of Nine doesn't have enough feats to have all its feats, and far worse, check the Deity of the sample Ruby Knight Vindicator of Wee Jas.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 01:59 AM
The thread is discussing if this is a typo regarding the sword sage being the only class in the game that would receive a X 6 multiplier at first level.

The example of the human sword sage under SKILL SELECTION clearly says 6 + Int modifier on page 18 of ToB with a limit of skill rank - 4 for skills.

Regarding the Mo9 there is probably a build you can make utilizing levels 2 of Fighter with at least one Level of Crusader, Sword Sage and Warblade plus 2 other levels to make the build.

Just taking 2 Flaws you should be able to make the build. Wizard's just didn't make it easy to enter starting at level 8 is all.

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 02:03 AM
As SadisticFishing above you said, that isn't very good evidence. From the same book, there are two other examples that also make obvious errors.
Also, there's a possibility that the swordsage example was written after the swordsage stat-block, and the example-writer just assumed that x6 was correct.

Douglas
2007-08-15, 02:04 AM
Um, no, that's not it. The skills entry on page 16 clearly states "6 + int modifier". The part we're discussing is that it says x6 at first level instead of the usual x4.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 02:05 AM
As SadisticFishing above you said, that isn't very good evidence. From the same book, there are two other examples that also make obvious errors.
Also, there's a possibility that the swordsage example was written after the swordsage stat-block, and the example-writer just assumed that x6 was correct.


It is great evidence. Wizard's has a history of typos and shoddy proofreading.

Does it specifically say anywhere in the sword sage class description that it negates the core rules of the PHB on page 61? No it does not.

What other source books have this same problem a base class that receives X 6 skill points at first level?

Douglas
2007-08-15, 02:08 AM
What other source books have this same problem a base class that does not receive bonus skill points for intelligence?
None, including this one? You misread what the typo is.

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 02:08 AM
You are laboring under a misapprehension. We are not debating the part that says "6 + Int modifier", we are talking about how the swordsage, alone among every 3.X class ever published, gets that amount times six at first level, instead of times four.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 02:10 AM
Um, no, that's not it. The skills entry on page 16 clearly states "6 + int modifier". The part we're discussing is that it says x6 at first level instead of the usual x4.

Page 18 trumps page 16 since it is a latter source page 18 was published after page 16. The human sword sage example only has 4 ranks in his skills.

Core trumps non core unless specifically stated otherwise.

You cannot have more than hd/level + 3 for ranks in skills. Page 61 PHB under SKILLs explains the X4 multiplier at first level.

Douglas
2007-08-15, 02:13 AM
Yes, yes, they both say "+ int modifier". That is not what is under debate. It's the x6 at first level instead of x4.

Goober4473
2007-08-15, 02:17 AM
Mike, what are you arguing?

Debate: "(6 + int modifier) x6" or "Typo, should be (6 + int modifier) x4."

Obviously a typo in my opinion. And if it wasn't, screw that I'm using x4 anyways.

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 02:19 AM
Ah, I see what the problem is.

We are not discussing how many ranks in a skill you can have.

We are not discussing how many skill points a swordsage is supposed to add to his Int modifier each level.

We are discussing the fact that, where most classes get something like "(6 + Int modifier) x4" at first level, swordsages get (6 + Int modifier) x6".

Goober: Out of curiosity, what other power reductions are you making?
EDIT: Hey, you edited out the part that I was responding to!

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 02:25 AM
Mike, what are you arguing?

Debate: "(6 + int modifier) x6" or "Typo, should be (6 + int modifier) x4."

Obviously a typo in my opinion. And if it wasn't, screw that I'm using x4 anyways.

Obviously a typo went off on a tangent and have amended all my posts.

Under Core rules PHB page 61 SKILL RANKS hd/level + 3 and modifiers. To my knowledge there is no other source book that has an exception to this core rule.

Using ToB page 18 all skill choices for a starting level 1 human sword sage are limited to 4 ranks unless a cross class skill.

Wizard's has a history for typos and poor editing. Don't believe I have ever seen a published source book without one.

Core rules and the source book itself contradict the exception which would normally warrant a sentence or more confirming the exception to the standard rules.

Reel On, Love
2007-08-15, 02:29 AM
You're doing it wrong.

"Later source" rule isn't something you apply to PAGES IN A BOOK. It's to sourcebooks. On the contrary--example characters can be wrong; the actual rule wins out--that's why the sample Abjurant Champion gets more AC from Mage Armor when it's actually not an Abjuration. What's more, x6 skill points at first level just refers to NUMBER of skill points--not to the HD+3 cap. A swordsage with 10 INT, *as printed*, would get 36 skill points at first level, and could therefore max out 9 skills to 4 ranks each. As intended, he'd get 24 skill points, and be able to max out 6 skills to 4 ranks each.

On that note, it's obviously a typo, CustServ has said so consistently and repeatedly, it's pretty obvious.

Inyssius Tor
2007-08-15, 02:39 AM
I second everything that Reel On, Love said, and add that you are looking at the wrong thing.


Under Core rules PHB page 61 SKILL RANKS hd/level + 3 and modifiers. To my knowledge there is no other source book that has an exception to this core rule.

Using ToB page 18 all skill choices for a starting level 1 human sword sage are limited to 4 ranks unless a cross class skill.
This is correct. We all know that, and as such it is not what we are talking about.

Every class gets a certain number of skill points to spend. They add that number to their Int modifier, and the resulting sum is how many skill points you get on each level. At first level, though, everyone except the swordsage is given four times that many skill points to spend. The swordsage gets six times that many skill points. Not ranks, points.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 03:20 AM
You're doing it wrong.

"Later source" rule isn't something you apply to PAGES IN A BOOK. It's to sourcebooks. On the contrary--example characters can be wrong; the actual rule wins out--that's why the sample Abjurant Champion gets more AC from Mage Armor when it's actually not an Abjuration. What's more, x6 skill points at first level just refers to NUMBER of skill points--not to the HD+3 cap. A swordsage with 10 INT, *as printed*, would get 36 skill points at first level, and could therefore max out 9 skills to 4 ranks each. As intended, he'd get 24 skill points, and be able to max out 6 skills to 4 ranks each.

On that note, it's obviously a typo, CustServ has said so consistently and repeatedly, it's pretty obvious.

I had trouble grasping the thread problem initially because I am familiar with the core rules. No one had bothered to cite the core rules as a reason for it being an incorrect typo.

Seriously if the second post had been under the core rules Getting Skills and Skill Ranks are limited to hd/level + 3 and the first level X 4 multiplier. It is doubtful there would have been many more posts on the thread.

It is clearly spelled out in the first paragraph of Getting Skills of the PHB on page 61. That is what the 4X multiplier is for like any other first level PC (Not 6X (Typo) multiplier for the sword sage because they say pick a number of skills equal to 6 + Int mod on the sword sage example of page 18 ot ToB)


Generally a deliberate exception to core rules by Wizard's in a source book warrants an annotation in the same source book with the exception unless it is a typo.

Why not? The Abjurant Champion PRC is a good example. The second sentence strongly implies that Mage Armor receives the benefit because it is specifically listed in the ability.

The Abjurant Champion with Mage Armor is a non issue in most games because you can look at that sentence two ways.

---------------------------------
First sentence from Complete Mage:

Abjurant Armor (SU) Any time you cast an ABJURATION spell that grants you an armor bonus or shield bonus to AC you can increase the value of the bonus by your Abjurant Champion class level.

Second sentence from Complete Mage:

Abjurant Champions rely on Mage Armor, Shield, and similar spells instead of actual armor.

First look using core rules:

Mage Armor is Not an Abjuration spell so Mage Armor does not receive the Abjurant Armor bonus although Abjurant Champions typically use it since they do not normally wear actual armor according to Complete Mage.

Second look the designer's clearly intended for it to apply to Mage Armor although it is not an Abjuration spell because it is specifically listed with Shield and similar spells instead of actual armor in the second sentence of the supernatural class ability of the PRC source book.

Third pretty simple under "Orignal Spell Research" core rules a PC could create an Abjuration school Mage Armor spell that would qualify for the PRC bonus.

Fourth under a House Rule the DM could rule that Abjurant Champions may learn a variant Abjuration school Mage Armor spell to gain the Abjurant Armor bonus.

Fifth the Abjurant Champion PRC is not an option in the DMs's campaign since it is not core and a source book PRC that would unduly burden his or her campaign.

Sixth as a player decide if you want to play an Abjurant Champion in game if your DM won't give you the PRC bonus to Mage Armor even with original spell research not being an option.

I am good with any of the six. If a player and a DM cannot come to an accord over it in their game they probably have some serious problems IMO.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 04:04 AM
I second everything that Reel On, Love said, and add that you are looking at the wrong thing.


This is correct. We all know that, and as such it is not what we are talking about.

Every class gets a certain number of skill points to spend. They add that number to their Int modifier, and the resulting sum is how many skill points you get on each level. At first level, though, everyone except the swordsage is given four times that many skill points to spend. The swordsage gets six times that many skill points. Not ranks, points.

That is exactly what you are talking about. The core rules are the basis for the X4 multiplier for all classes in game including the sword sageand why the X6 is a typo.

I suggest rereading both paragraphs of the core rules on page 61 Getting Skills which is why all first level PCs receive that 4 X multiplier (and the 6X is a typo). I also suggest looking at the example sword sage on page 18 of ToB skill points 6 + Int modifier with no funky extra skill point bonus.

Core rules nornally trump OPTIONAL source books and source book material in game.

Wizard's has a history of typos and poor proof reading.

As the DM you can do whatever you want in your games including not allowing the class in game. As a Player you have to accept your DM's ruling or play another class.

IMO if it was the only class in game earning skill points that way there would have been an annotation of some sort specifically mentioning the exception.

Overlard
2007-08-15, 04:17 AM
I am confident that if it were not a typo, it would be listed as a class feature. Something as large as a "different from every other base class in the game" wouldn't be hidden in a block like that, it would be marked out and noted.

That being said, a player of mine played a swordsage in a one-shot, and insisted that as there was no errata, he could use the x6 rather than the standard x4. After 5 minutes of arguing, and with no sign of him letting it go, I let him take it.

I then applied a secret -5 modifier to all his skill rolls for the game. :smallwink:

CASTLEMIKE
2007-08-15, 04:42 AM
Mike, what are you arguing?

Debate: "(6 + int modifier) x6" or "Typo, should be (6 + int modifier) x4."

Obviously a typo in my opinion. And if it wasn't, screw that I'm using x4 anyways.

I agree 100% the thread debate is regarding the sword sage (6 + int mod) X6 for the skill point multiplier on page 16 of ToB which would make the sword sage the only class in game to get that benefit.

It is a TYPO and should be (6 + Int Mod) X4 for the skill point multiplier as per the PHB page 61 core skill rules and how class skills are modified for first level characters.

The ToB source book for the sword sage example on page 18 lists choosing skills as 6 + Int mod for the sword sage.

The same source book does not give an annotation why a first level sword sage would be using a 6X multiplier as the only class in game operating that way. Normally an exception to standard core rules for a class in game warrants some kind of reason in it's class description.

Swooper
2007-08-15, 05:00 AM
To think that this argument could have been avoided by a sensible presentation of skill point amount gained per level. Instead of:

Skill points at first level: (x + INT modifier) x 4
Skill points at each subsequent level: x + INT modifier

they could have used simply:

Skill points per level: x

And then made sure everyone knew you got your int modifier added to that and four times that at first level. It's a little trick they teach in Computing Science. The more often you write something, the more likely you'll make an error somewhere, and then, finding it can be a pain in the behind.