Everburning Torches are overpriced.

[Aquillion]

From Goods and Services (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm):

An Everburning Torch costs 110 GP. It's explicitly a normal torch with Continual Flame (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/continualFlame.htm) cast on it.

Paying a level 3 wizard to cast Continual Flame on something for you costs 60 GP. The torch costs 1 CP. That's some markup.

(Also, can you cast Continual Flame on 1 CP torches, then sell them for 55 GP?)

EDIT: Oh, bother, I forgot Continual Flame has a 50 GP material component. So you're actually getting a 1 CP discount.

[Deophaun]

They're still overpriced, though. 30% of all magic weapons glow equivalent to a light spell, equal to a torch or continuous flame. +1 arrows cost 46.2 gp. I saved you 63.8 gold and didn't even go outside of core.

[Elkad]

How many 1gp Sunrods does it take to get to a level where light becomes mostly irrelevant.

I've never managed to use more than a couple dozen, even throwing them down hallways and wells on occasion. And they work a hell of a lot better than an everburning torch.

[Vaern]

Glowing Orb costs a grand total of 200 gold to have cast, and the brightness can be adjusted anywhere 0 (off) to 60 feet of illumination at will by whoever controls the orb from as far as 30 feet away.
Note, though, that both the Everburning Torch and the Glowing Orb are both spell effects with a duration of "Permanent" rather than an actual magic item. This means that both spells can technically be dispelled and the items rendered useless afterward. The difference is that Continual Flame has a costly material component, while Glowing Orb has an expensive focus (the glass orb that becomes the light source). If dispelled, the Orb can be returned and recycled as the focus, allowing the spell to be cast again at a reduced cost.

The +1 arrow would still be cheaper and can not be dispelled as it is actually a magic item.
Or, if you like the idea of being able to turn your magical light off, you can get a +1 flaming arrow without the inherent magical glow for 166.2 gold, and use the command word to toggle the Flaming effect. This gives you a torch that you can turn on and off on command.

[Deophaun]

How many 1gp Sunrods does it take to get to a level where light becomes mostly irrelevant.
They weigh a pound each, which is important when you have eight strength and need to track these things.

Or, if you like the idea of being able to turn your magical light off, you can get a +1 flaming arrow without the inherent magical glow for 166.2 gold, and use the command word to toggle the Flaming effect. This gives you a torch that you can turn on and off on command.
I just put a half rank into Sleight of Hand. Now I can turn it off as a free action. Turning it back on as a free action requires more investment.

[Elkad]

They weigh a pound each, which is important when you have eight strength and need to track these things.

Sure. Same weight as a torch, which only lasts an hour - unless you can lay out for the everburning one.
Or a flask of oil for the same duration and weight, plus another 2lbs for a lantern to put it in.

Hearthfire is probably the best option at 6 days per lb (plus 2lbs for the lantern) when you worried about weight and cost both, but 17gp is a fair chunk at L1. Chip in for one for the party, but get a sunrod of your own for emergencies.

[rel]

How many 1gp Sunrods does it take to get to a level where light becomes mostly irrelevant.

I've never managed to use more than a couple dozen, even throwing them down hallways and wells on occasion. And they work a hell of a lot better than an everburning torch.

If you are not using slower exploration speeds from earlier editions of the game or running dungeons of prodigious size a single lantern and a few pints of oil will easily get you to a character level where continual flame is a trivial expense.

If you are buying a continual flame torch getting a custom one made is a good idea.
Get a cleric to cast the spell so it is level 3 and thus unaffected by darkness, cast it on something small, lite and slotless like an earing. When you want to put out the light just put the 'torch' into a pouch or bag.

[Deophaun]

Sure. Same weight as a torch, which only lasts an hour - unless you can lay out for the everburning one.
Or a flask of oil for the same duration and weight, plus another 2lbs for a lantern to put it in.

Hearthfire is probably the best option at 6 days per lb (plus 2lbs for the lantern) when you worried about weight and cost both, but 17gp is a fair chunk at L1. Chip in for one for the party, but get a sunrod of your own for emergencies.
No. Don't get either. You need a torch simply to deal with swarms at low levels. For light, you can use either the +1 arrow or a pellet of liquid sunlight. The arrow is superior simply due to magical light not being defeated by a cantrip and anti-magic being a long ways off.

[Forrestfire]

I favor angel radiance (BoED), myself. 20gp, shines indefinitely like a torch, and can be drawn as a free action.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You're forgetting that Continual Flame has a 50 gp costly material component.

50 gp material component, plus 60 gp NPC spellcasting fees, is exactly 110 gp, their printed price.


Furthermore, Continual Flame is an Evocation [Light] spell, so if you carry an Everburning Torch into the area of a Darkness spell, they'll cancel each other out until they're separated or until one's duration runs out. So it makes the party immune to that spell just by having it.

You can get a Heightened Continual Flame as a 9th level spell from a 20th level caster for a higher dispel DC, which should only cost 1,850 gp. That will automatically overpower any Darkness effect of 8th level or lower, including Deeper Darkness, and equally cancels 9th level Darkness effects. So just carrying one of those makes the party immune to pretty much any darkness effect they'll ever run into.

[Yahzi]

EDIT: Oh, bother, I forgot Continual Flame has a 50 GP material component. So you're actually getting a 1 CP discount.
No, you're still right, because paying a level 3 wizard 60 gp a spell is insanely overpriced.

Let's assume he has an INT of 14. That means he can cast two per day. Taking weekends and vacations off, that's still 500 castings a year. Which is an income of 30,000 gp. For a 3rd level wizard. Who works 2 hours a day.

:smallmad:

[Tohsaka Rin]

No, you're still right, because paying a level 3 wizard 60 gp a spell is insanely overpriced.

Let's assume he has an INT of 14. That means he can cast two per day. Taking weekends and vacations off, that's still 500 castings a year. Which is an income of 30,000 gp. For a 3rd level wizard. Who works 2 hours a day.

:smallmad:

Sounds to me like someone's jealous they didn't think of that career line first. :smallbiggrin:

[Fizban]

You can also have the spell cast with a Sunflower of Pelor to double the area. Main thing I hate about Everburning Torches is that they're not even as good as a lantern. Glowing Orb goes up to a 60' radius permanent, but must be cast on a fragile orb. Complete Champion strikes again, "masterwork" everburning torch of 40'.

[Gullintanni]

You can also have the spell cast with a Sunflower of Pelor to double the area. Main thing I hate about Everburning Torches is that they're not even as good as a lantern. Glowing Orb goes up to a 60' radius permanent, but must be cast on a fragile orb. Complete Champion strikes again, "masterwork" everburning torch of 40'.

Well now hold on...

Unless it's attacked directly, simply dropping the orb a few feet won't cause it any damage. There's no RAW for that. Glass is only fragile if it has stats, and drops from a height that would typically cause falling damage.

Get your real world logic out of my fantasy game. :p

[Fizban]

The orb does in fact have stats: 0 hardness and 2hp. Glass has 0 hardness and 1hp/inch. And even if your DM won't break it without a direct attack, I'll take any material over glass for resisting a sunder or Shout.

[Elkad]

And then there is tempered glass (yeah, not in the rules).

Hardness 12 or higher, but only 1hp. So if you get past the hardness, it turns to pointy dust.


Isn't there a 3.5 version of Glassteel in a splatbook? Cast that on your vulnerable orb.

[Gullintanni]

The orb does in fact have stats: 0 hardness and 2hp. Glass has 0 hardness and 1hp/inch. And even if your DM won't break it without a direct attack, I'll take any material over glass for resisting a sunder or Shout.

Fair enough lol - fairly fragile indeed. As suggested above though...4 inch diameter tempered glass orb?

[Vaern]

The spell description specifically says that a glass orb suitable for the spell has hardness 0 and 2 HP, so I don't think using tempered glass to boost the stats would work. You might be able to transmute it into tempered glass after the spell has been cast, or use the stats for magically treated walls to enhance its health, or even argue that it can be used as an improvised weapon and try giving it a +1 enhancement bonus to buff its hardness and health.

[Fizban]

"Tempered" glass harder than steel? Yeah no. The spell calls out the exact stats of the required orb, no dodging that. A Hardening spell could be applied later, but I avoid those like the plague 'cause they mess with all sorts of assumptions.

[Elkad]

"Tempered" glass harder than steel? Yeah no.

It's outside the rules, but of course it is. Even regular glass is harder than steel. That's why you can sharpen your knife on the bottom of your coffee cup and not mar the cup.
Youtube is full of people throwing heavy objects at tempered windows and them bouncing off. 16lb sledge hammers dropped 5 feet onto sheets, etc.
Prince Rupert's Drops are the classic example. Put them in a hydraulic press and they dent the tool steel before they eventually fail, at many tons of force.

[Fizban]

I'm not really seeing anything to change my mind there. You can sharpen a knife on a stone, you know, a whetstone, which in dnd has lower hardness. Video results, aside from phone screens there's sheets which bend until they break, or hitting the glass bridge panel with a hammer-which showed clear damage with every hit. Prince Rupert's Drops shatter if struck on the wrong end. DnD hardness means universally taking no damage below a certain point, not surviving a blow with damage or being tough in one direction. Would tempered glass survive a drop? Obviously. Could it be made in DnD? Maybe. Does it have hardness 10? No.

[Yogibear41]

Everburning Torches are free if you know what you are doing :smallsmile:

[Yogibear41]

No, you're still right, because paying a level 3 wizard 60 gp a spell is insanely overpriced.

Let's assume he has an INT of 14. That means he can cast two per day. Taking weekends and vacations off, that's still 500 castings a year. Which is an income of 30,000 gp. For a 3rd level wizard. Who works 2 hours a day.

:smallmad:


You are or course assuming there is a demand for that many torches. Chances are the price is so high because almost no one ever wants to buy one, so when someone does you jack the price up to compensate for lack of demand. Wizard might be lucky to sell 50 everburning torches a year. Because lets face it, once you actually have the money to start throwing at things like everburning torches you might buy one and then you either become powerful enough to not need it anymore, or you die in a dungeon somewhere and someone comes by later and takes if off your corpse.

[noob]

You are or course assuming there is a demand for that many torches. Chances are the price is so high because almost no one ever wants to buy one, so when someone does you jack the price up to compensate for lack of demand. Wizard might be lucky to sell 50 everburning torches a year. Because lets face it, once you actually have the money to start throwing at things like everburning torches you might buy one and then you either become powerful enough to not need it anymore, or you die in a dungeon somewhere and someone comes by later and takes if off your corpse.

There is an easy way to raise the need for everburning torches: breed monsters with magic dispelling powers and release them in dungeons.
(when you hear the sentence "a wizard did it" that wizard is probably an economist)

[Deophaun]

Everburning Torches are free if you know what you are doing :smallsmile:
If you're talking of using summon monster, no, they aren't, because all spell effects a summoned creature creates end when the summon's duration ends.

[denthor]

SCroll 25 (level 3rd)=75 gold (2nd level spell) = 150 gold


150+50 gold component = 200 per spell if you purchase and cast using magic device. So 110 plus you provide spell component seems like a bargain to me.

[Dimers]

If you're talking of using summon monster, no, they aren't, because all spell effects a summoned creature creates end when the summon's duration ends.

Nah ... summon monster has a cost itself, so Yogi must be talking about theft. :smallsmile:

[Yogibear41]

If you're talking of using summon monster, no, they aren't, because all spell effects a summoned creature creates end when the summon's duration ends.

You know, dang you are right. I was thinking Continual Flame was Instantaneous, but it in fact has a duration of permanent so technically it would end darn.

Although you could still planar binding one, because they are "calling" effects not summoning, which means it shouldn't end after they return home.

Or just being buddy buddy friends with an Archon that can do it.


Theft works too. :smallsmile:

[Knaight]

Let's assume he has an INT of 14. That means he can cast two per day. Taking weekends and vacations off, that's still 500 castings a year. Which is an income of 30,000 gp. For a 3rd level wizard. Who works 2 hours a day.

Casting the spells takes two hours a day - that doesn't mean that running the business takes two hours a day. There's the need for supplies (both in material components and in sticks/rods of some sort), there's probably a need to maintain a storefront at minimum (which means both dealing with the legal and financial aspects of getting a building and with maintenance on said building), and likely a need to deal with clients/customers.

[Aquillion]

You are or course assuming there is a demand for that many torches. Chances are the price is so high because almost no one ever wants to buy one, so when someone does you jack the price up to compensate for lack of demand. Wizard might be lucky to sell 50 everburning torches a year. Because lets face it, once you actually have the money to start throwing at things like everburning torches you might buy one and then you either become powerful enough to not need it anymore, or you die in a dungeon somewhere and someone comes by later and takes if off your corpse.There's no rules for supply and demand, though. In fact, D&D has exactly one rule to set buying and selling prices.

Buying prices are set according to the SRD. Selling prices are half buying prices (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm).

Ergo, if you're a merchant selling an everburning torch, you only get 55 GP for it, but whoever purchased it has to spend 110 GP. What happens to the other 55 GP? Taxes. The only real conclusion is that every D&D setting, without exception, has a hard 50% sales tax that is magically enforced (or a 100% sales tax, depending on whether or not listed prices include tax.)

However, there's a corollary: If you want to sell something, you will be able to sell it at that 50% list price. Doesn't matter where you are or what it is, as long as you can find a merchant or put a "for sale" sign in the ground, you get 50% list price.

Anything listed as a "trade good" on that page has no sales tax; presumably "trade good" means "good that has a strong trade lobbyist group." The D&D setting has an extremely powerful Pig Lobby that has prevented the sale of pigs from being taxed.

[noce]

I just prefer Dwarven Eyes.

They cost 0 CP, you can see with them without emitting any light, they're permanent unless pulled out of their sockets, and you start with two of them at character creation.

Never spend a copper piece again on light-emitting stuff, go dwarf.

[noob]

But people usually prefer to be whisperer halflings for the bonus everything.(but no darkvision)
Anyway mass-less candles are awesome:carry one hundred of them then you can throw them everywhere and leave a trail of them to attract as many monsters as possible(that is the main use of light).

[Fizban]

I just prefer Dwarven Eyes.
I mean, we could talk about how darkvision and low-light vision completely and utterly destroy the concept of stealth/lighting/detection for military matters that were conceived based on normal human vision. It it literally impossible to sneak around under cover of night when elves exist: they can always see you at night. Darkvision is completely impossible to sneak past even in a thunderstorm at night, unless you're 61' away in which case you're completely invisible, which should result in some very particular camp formations.

Anything without low-light or darkvision is completely and utterly screwed if they're ever attacked at night during a rainstorm, and humans are the major species?

Hilarious how they're both thrown on so many races as a complete afterthought when for anyone who doesn't have a permanent magical light source is at a crippling disadvantage without them. Adventurers.

[Deophaun]

I just prefer Dwarven Eyes.

They cost 0 CP, you can see with them without emitting any light, they're permanent unless pulled out of their sockets, and you start with two of them at character creation.

Never spend a copper piece again on light-emitting stuff, go dwarf.
I've never been able to get them to work. Plus, people don't react well when you walk around holding a decapitated head in front of you.

[noce]

I've never been able to get them to work. Plus, people don't react well when you walk around holding a decapitated head in front of you.

Are you looking for trouble? :mad:


(joking)

[Deophaun]

Are you looking for trouble? :mad:
Of course. That's why I need to see in the dark.

[Alcore]

Furthermore, Continual Flame is an Evocation [Light] spell, so if you carry an Everburning Torch into the area of a Darkness spell, they'll cancel each other out until they're separated or until one's duration runs out. So it makes the party immune to that spell just by having it.

Fun fact: :smallbiggrin:

Casting darkness in a dark room still leaves it dark when the torch arrives. It might be less dark (dim lighting) but if no one has darkvision or regular lighting the encounter with darkvision guys is going to be fun.

[Deophaun]

Casting darkness in a dark room still leaves it dark when the torch arrives. It might be less dark (dim lighting) but if no one has darkvision or regular lighting the encounter with darkvision guys is going to be fun.
Best of both worlds: cast continual flame on a +1 arrow. Now you always have light.

Also, bears mentioning, cheapest way to gain blindsight is with a +1 blindsighted arrow. 366.5 gp.

[noob]

Best of both worlds: cast continual flame on a +1 arrow. Now you always have light.

Also, bears mentioning, cheapest way to gain blindsight is with a +1 blindsighted arrow. 366.5 gp.

Sorry but arrows have 1/50 the price and not 1/100 the price.
Since that enchant costs 30000 having it on an arrow costs 600 gp.(that factor in cost is still negligible)

[Deophaun]

Sorry but arrows have 1/50 the price and not 1/100 the price.
Since that enchant costs 30000 having it on an arrow costs 600 gp.
No. Blindsighted is a +2 enchant. So a +1 blindsighted arrow is 1/50th of 18310, or 366.2 gp! (OK, you got me, I was three silver off!) 18,350, or 367 gp. (Had the price per mundane arrow wrong)

You wanna get on someone's math, make sure you've got your own math correct.

[noob]

No. Blindsighted is a +2 enchant. So a +1 blindsighted arrow is 1/50th of 18310, or 366.2 gp! (OK, you got me, I was three silver off!) 18,350, or 367 gp. (Had the price per mundane arrow wrong)

You wanna get on someone's math, make sure you've got your own math correct.

Sorry but I had another blind-sighted(mine come from drow of the underdark):
http://www.realmshelps.net/magic/weapon/Blindsighted
This one is a flat +30000.
Quote your source please.
mic was published before drow of the underdark so this version of blindsighted override the one from mic

[Deophaun]

Sorry but I had another blind-sighted(mine come from drow of the underdark):
No it doesn't. DotU has accurate, light burst, sparkling, spiderkissed, toxic, and virulent. No blindsighted.

Quote your source please.
Magic Item Compendium. Pg 29.

[noob]

Sorry I confused underdark and drows of the underdark.

[Deophaun]

Yeah, DotU would conflict with MIC (and does, due to the fearsome armor enhancement) because it comes later and then you now have to look at primary source rules. Underdark, being 3.0, has to bow to it, so no 30000gp blindsighted enhancement.

[Jeraa]

Yeah, DotU would conflict with MIC (and does, due to the fearsome armor enhancement) because it comes later and then you now have to look at primary source rules. Underdark, being 3.0, has to bow to it, so no 30000gp blindsighted enhancement.

Just a minor note, Underdark is not a 3.0 book. It is one of the first 3.5 books. (3.5 PHB is June 2003. Underdark is October 2003.)

[Yahzi]

You are or course assuming there is a demand for that many torches.
Except, of all the magical items in D&D, the Everburning torch has the largest demand.

How many guns (i.e. magic swords) do you have in your house? How many flying carpets (i.e. cars)? Now... how many light bulbs?

Light was actually a real problem in the middle ages - all those movies that show caves full of burning torches or massive chandeliers of candles are complete bunk. That stuff only happened for the super uber wealthy (and it only happened in the movies because the cameras needed the light). Samuel Johnson wrote the dictionary by the light of a single candle.

Of all the technological inventions, safe, cheap and easy light is one of the big ones.

You can easily imagine a largish city (50,000) buying 500 torches a year. Of course that business would be split across lots of mages, but that still doesn't justify the ridiculous price that the DMG suggests for spell-casting services. Those prices are only supposed to apply to mysterious adventurers demanding absurd one-time services that are possibly dangerous and probably likely to anger powerful entities. Not every-day life.

Which kinda describes literally everything about D&D. The minute you step outside a dungeon, the whole thing starts to fall apart. Fortunately some people have done the work to patch it up so you don't have to! Meaning my "World of Prime" guides, of course. :smallbiggrin: As an example, in my world an Everburning Torch costs 55 gp. Because 5 gp a year for a 3rd level wizard is not insane.

[Rijan_Sai]

You know, dang you are right. I was thinking Continual Flame was Instantaneous, but it in fact has a duration of permanent so technically it would end darn.

Although you could still planar binding one, because they are "calling" effects not summoning, which means it shouldn't end after they return home.

Or just being buddy buddy friends with an Archon that can do it.


Theft works too. :smallsmile:
Funny, I was thinking you were talking about a StP Erudite. 7pp per manifest is fairly negligible (assuming I'm remembering the numbers correctly... AFB ATM).
(Also, absolutely going to be one of the first spell-powers I get next time I have a chance to play a 5th+ level StPE!:smallbiggrin:)





I just prefer Dwarven Eyes.

They cost 0 CP, you can see with them without emitting any light, they're permanent unless pulled out of their sockets, and you start with two of them at character creation.

Never spend a copper piece again on light-emitting stuff, go dwarf.I've never been able to get them to work. Plus, people don't react well when you walk around holding a decapitated head in front of you.
I had to read that a couple of times to realize he was talking about playing a dwarf, and not doing something far more... violent with one!:smallamused:

[John Longarrow]

Player in my game has continual flame cast on a 3" brass ring sewn onto a shoulder strap. He also has a piece of leather that he can pull over it to cut off the light. As a 9th level human, having a torch light that can appear behind his shoulder is really really useful. Course it doesn't take up space as an "Item" would, so its pretty much a win/win for him.

[Yogibear41]

There is that exalted spell that creates lantern archons in exchange for strength drain, so you could theoretically create Ever Burning torches that way for free (if you can heal the strength drain at no cost)

[rferries]

You can get a Heightened Continual Flame as a 9th level spell from a 20th level caster for a higher dispel DC, which should only cost 1,850 gp. That will automatically overpower any Darkness effect of 8th level or lower, including Deeper Darkness, and equally cancels 9th level Darkness effects. So just carrying one of those makes the party immune to pretty much any darkness effect they'll ever run into.

I quite like this idea... a humble light spell that drives back even the most powerful darkness.


Anything listed as a "trade good" on that page has no sales tax; presumably "trade good" means "good that has a strong trade lobbyist group." The D&D setting has an extremely powerful Pig Lobby that has prevented the sale of pigs from being taxed.

:smallbiggrin:

[Vaern]

Anything listed as a "trade good" on that page has no sales tax; presumably "trade good" means "good that has a strong trade lobbyist group." The D&D setting has an extremely powerful Pig Lobby that has prevented the sale of pigs from being taxed.
So could a merchant exchange an everburning torch for 110 GP worth of pigs, and then exchange the pigs for coinage equal to their full value to circumvent the tax? Or would the tax collector catch wind of this and take half the cost of the pigs anyway?

[Deophaun]

So could a merchant exchange an everburning torch for 110 GP worth of pigs, and then exchange the pigs for coinage equal to their full value to circumvent the tax? Or would the tax collector catch wind of this and take half the cost of the pigs anyway?
No. The pigs are traded as coin, but the torch is not. You would be trading the torch for 55 GP worth of pigs, and the pigs for their full value.

To get around this, what you actually need to do is cast continual flame on an art object, because art objects are also traded at full value. Just put a carving of a face into the plain stick you'd normally use and Bob's your uncle.

[Aquillion]

No. The pigs are traded as coin, but the torch is not. You would be trading the torch for 55 GP worth of pigs, and the pigs for their full value.

To get around this, what you actually need to do is cast continual flame on an art object, because art objects are also traded at full value. Just put a carving of a face into the plain stick you'd normally use and Bob's your uncle.It'd be unlisted, though, so you'd basically just have to make puppy-dog eyes at your DM while they assign a value to it. Nothing says it will necessarily be worth more than the material component spent to enchant it.

You might as well cast Continual Flame on a pig.

(Hmm, can you? Is "object" well defined somewhere? What if you cast it on someone's corpse before they're resurrected?)

[rel]

To get around this, what you actually need to do is cast continual flame on an art object, because art objects are also traded at full value. Just put a carving of a face into the plain stick you'd normally use and Bob's your uncle.

Sadly due to the craft rules carving the face into your stick requires 36 (or maybe 18) gp of unspecified crafting materials and takes 3 weeks of solid work to complete.

[Thurbane]

Trying to rationalize certain items in the D&D economy just causes headaches. Wall of Salt renders your argument invalid! :smalltongue:

Seriously through, yes, Everburning Torches are one of the many poorly priced items in 3.5.

[mattie_p]

You might as well cast Continual Flame on a pig.

(Hmm, can you? Is "object" well defined somewhere? What if you cast it on someone's corpse before they're resurrected?)

Object is defined. Look under Nonabilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)


Wisdom
Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom. Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature. Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.

A corpse (no longer) has a wisdom score, so it's an object.

[Aquillion]

Hmm. Technically that only says certain situations where something must be an object; it doesn't conclusively define objects or say that an object cannot have a Wisdom or Charisma score.

What about body parts? My hair or a pig's snout has no Wisdom or Charisma score - can I cast Continual Flame on it?

(Of course, this line if thinking is a bit dangerous, since it approaches "your torso has no Wisdom or Charisma score, therefore it is an object and I can cast Teleport Object on it to de-torso you." There's probably a rule somewhere against using a spell on just one part of a creature? But I can't find it.)

[rferries]

Object is defined. Look under Nonabilities. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)



A corpse (no longer) has a wisdom score, so it's an object.

Another contradictory ruling (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22463259&postcount=18)!

[mattie_p]

To that reference, I will state that "a dead creature" is a particular kind of object. Gentle repose targets a "corpse touched" and further states "You preserve the remains of a dead creature so that they do not decay."

The creature is not the target, just the corpse. The saving throw line includes (object), meaning it can be cast on an object. The only type of object which would be a useful target is one which is a corpse. The soul isn't decaying anyway.

Likewise raise dead and resurrection do not offer a save. The creature in it's afterlife must be willing. (This is why true resurrection can still function without a body). The dead condition even states that the soul has left it's body, often to become a petitioner depending on the cosmology of the setting.

Also ( premising this question upon the assumption that a corpse is a dead creature) at what point is a portion of the corpse no longer the creature and is only an object? Is the skin of a creature that has been crafted into leather armor a creature or an object? Is a rasher of bacon an object? For that matter, is a fingernail clipping an object? Is the subject of a reincarnation spell a different creature the same character as before? After all, no portion of the old body is used to make the new body.

This topic could probably use further discussion but I'm confident of the RAW in this matter.

[rferries]

Yeah, I agree with you. I just thought it was funny that the issue came up in two different threads so recently :)