[3.5] Build Help; Optimizing an Enchanter/Incarnate/Soulcaster

[Nautilust]

So my GM has royally made me frustrated. He's denied three builds so far, and now i'm not showing him a build until Game Day.
Let's build the Best Enchanter/Incarnate/Soulcaster possible. I'm open to any advice.

It's a homebrew setting that i know very little about the groups been around for longer than i've been a part and he didn't tell the new players much about his homebrew setting when we joined. I do know that they started out in a city nearly surrounded by mountains with a forest below it, and that the area arctic so i need a cold weather outfit.

If it's in a book it's allowed, even third party stuff.

all races are allowed (except for lycanthropes and dragonwrought lore drake kobolds)

The array is 16/15/14/12/10/10

I picked enchanter cause i want to control people with my spells. Like really want to control people. And i like the idea of soulmelding alot so i figured i could mix the two ideas.

We are 4th level with the standard gold lvl from the dungeon masters guide. And yes we can buy magic items

I know that the new player's are playing a Wizard (Evoker) and Gish. From the GM "We have a half-elf half-dragon sorceress with a breath weapon,
Human gunslinger (Class is from Pathfinder, not sure how they converted it to 3.5), human cleric of kord (pretty straight forward), gnome shaman (The groups healer), and changeling rogue (pretty straight forward.)"

Alignment will be Chaotic Neutral

I'm thinking CN Enchanter 3/Incarnate 1 Grey Elf.

Str 08/Dex 12/Con 14/Int 18/Wis 12/Cha 14

1st: Incarnum Spellshaping
3rd: ?

[Galacktic]

Why has he denied them? This sounds like something you should discuss. If one of my players showed up on game day without me knowing a thing about their character, and it's the typical GitPG monstrosity, that player and I are having a discussion and no game.

[Nautilust]

First character was my fault. I made a dragonwrought kobold loredrake sorcerer and he understandably felt that it was too powerful for the party after some research.

2nd character was also my fault i just threw together your basic fighter and threw it his way, he felt it was too weak and could tell i didn't spend any time on it.

Third character was him. I was going to play a soul manifester from the wotc site. I sent him the link and asked him if i could play it he said he didn't see why not. Then 14 hours later he says i can't play it cause it's not from a book :smallmad: 14 hours i had spent reading about psionics and coming up with backstory and trying to make the best character i could.

I'm probably not really going to not show him this character i'm just really frustrated right now and will make this character and show him tomorrow. His requirements are that i make a character that's legal and from the books so i'll give him a character that's legal and from the books.

[Nifft]

Edit the first post to include:
- Setting info
- Books allowed (or "all books" or whatever)
- What races are allowed (if it's not just all races)
- Your stats (I think your previous characters had an array?)
- Why you picked Enchanter, and which two schools you intend to ban.

If you're above 1st level, do you get to buy magical gear?

Do you know what the rest of the group will be playing? (Even just roughly knowing is useful.)


EDIT: Okay now I see stats:


I'm thinking Enchanter 3/Incarnate 1 Grey Elf.

Str 08
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 12
Cha 14

1st: Incarnum Spellshaping
3rd:?


Suggestions:

1/ If you're going to be an Elf, take a look at the Elven Generalist ACF from Races of the Wild. You only get 1 bonus spell slot, but it's always at the highest level.

2/ At 3rd level, you pick up your round-to-round at-will damage option. You might want to take a [Reserve] feat like Fiery Burst (C.Mage). Or, you might want to rely on the Dissolving Spittle soulmeld to give you something to do every round. If you go for Dissolving Spittle, then consider Share Soulmeld as your level 3 feat. You'd need to go Wiz 2 / Incarnate 1 / Wiz +1 to qualify, but you'd potentially double your per-round damage.

3/ What's your alignment? As a Chaos Incarnate, you can do some funky stuff with ranged attacks. As an Evil Incarnate, you can animate a zombie, and renew it for free after a fight.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Share Soulmeld is awesome-- not only does it offer nice defensive and utility buffs for your familiar, but sharing something like Dissolving Spittle is a great offensive boost at low levels. Expanded Soulmeld Capacity is also literally never a bad choice for a Meldshaper.

[Nautilust]

I was going to use the silvertongue mask as my brow/throat slot.

I was thinking of maybe going Ancestral Weapon on an Elvencraft Longbow for damage.

But Fire Burst might work too.

Elven Generalist doesn't look too bad I might go with it

[Nautilust]

So far I have
CN Elven Generalist 3/Incarnate 1 Grey Elf.

Str 08/Dex 12/Con 14/Int 18/Wis 12/Cha 14

1st: Incarnum Spellshaping
3rd: Share Soulmeld

Familiar: Snake +6 Bluff (From Natural Link)

What equipment should I/can I buy?

[Nautilust]

Eh, this build is pretty good but i'm not liking it for some reason. Maybe I should move way from soulmelding?

[Grod_The_Giant]

Eh, this build is pretty good but i'm not liking it for some reason. Maybe I should move way from soulmelding?
What part feels off? Maybe you need to move farther away from the rejected soulcaster idea?

[Nautilust]

I think that it's that the character is just a weaker version of the soul manifester that I was building. Health and melee wise. It's not doing as many things.

[Nautilust]

So I got a couple choices I can go for something about as versatile or forget about it and focus on something that just casts.

So I'm thinking either Warblade/Wu Jen/Jade Pheonix Mage or Shugenja/Void Disciple.

If the Gm will let me bring in oriental classes

[Grod_The_Giant]

If you really want versatility... Try something like Changeling Binder 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 2/Chameleon. See how long it takes your partymates to realize you're not just making a new character every session.

[Nautilust]

That reallly peaks my interest. How could we optimize the changeling/chameleon combination so that I could play just about whatever I wanted to play any given day.

[Nifft]

If you really want versatility... Try something like Changeling Binder 1/Totemist 2/Incarnate 2/Chameleon. See how long it takes your partymates to realize you're not just making a new character every session.
How did you get Disguise 8 on that build?

I know that a Silverbrow Human Totemist 2 / Binder 3 / Chameleon is hella fun. The 3rd level of Binder (+ Improved Binding of course) gets you access to 2d6 sneak attack, Aura of Sadness, Dance of Death, and with another feat Ahazu's fun stuff.

Silverbrow gets you several nice things:
- Human for Able Learner and Chameleon
- Disguise as a class skill
- Feather Fall for a caster level (for item creation feats)
- Dragonblood subtype for fun early Totemist melds
- Bonus feat is also nice

[Nautilust]

Could we fit doppleganger into this character so I can go Able Learner

[Nautilust]

Does it need Totemist? Could it just go Binder X/ Chameleon X

[Grod_The_Giant]

How did you get Disguise 8 on that build?
Dang, you're right. Forgot that you need Silverbrow for that. You could grab Able Learner at 1st and City Slicker at 3rd; especially if you invest cross-class with Able Learner at 1st and 2nd, that's plenty of time to bump it up to 8. Flaws make this easier, of course; grab both skill feats at 1st and Expanded Soulmeld Capacity at 3rd.


Could we fit doppleganger into this character so I can go Able Learner
Doppleganger, probably not with that LA, but if you look at the "Adaptation" section for Chameleons, it says

If you’re using the EBERRON Campaign Setting, the chameleon prestige class should be available to changeling player characters as well as humans and doppelgangers. In this case, the Able Learner feat extends to changelings as well.


That reallly peaks my interest. How could we optimize the changeling/chameleon combination so that I could play just about whatever I wanted to play any given day.
Things That Make Good Chameleon Entries:

Changling Rogue 1: Just so many skills, and great social boosts while you're at it. Sneak Attack never hurts.
Duskblade 3: Arcane Channeling works with any spell, not just Duskblade ones. Chameleons can give you lots of fun touch attacks to throw around.
Totemist 2-5: Totem Melds are badass, and Meldshaping works well with multiclassing. Especially that Floating Feat for things like Open Chakra. Or spells to do the same. Melds like Girillon Arms and Manticore Tail are devastating from 1-20. Two levels give you your Totem slot; five levels gives you the rest of your low-level binds.
Incarnate 1-4: The offensive capabilities aren't as good as a Totemist (though you can be pretty nasty at low levels with things like Dissolving Spittle and Lightning Gauntlets), but the utility options are top-notch. One level is good for accessing skill-boosting binds; three levels gets you an extra capacity upgrade, and four levels give you extra binds.
Binder 1+: Just like Chameleons, they can radically change their focus from day-to-day. The floating bonus feat works great for grabbing things like Ability Focus (when you bind someone with a save-or-lose ability), Divine feats (when you bind Tenebrous), and similar situational things.
Spirit Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1: Especially when coupled with Extra Rage, gives you all your melee needs in one easy package.
Any ToB Class: Especially if you focus on boosts and counters, gives a nice bit of added punch to your melee or defense.


EDIT:

Does it need Totemist? Could it just go Binder X/ Chameleon X
That would work, sure. I like splashing Meldshaping anywhere I can fit it, and it goes well with the floating bonus feat, but... said feat also goes well with Binders. As Nifft noted, you'll either need to go Silverbrow Human (gets Disguise as a class skill) or take City Slicker (gives a bunch of new class skills, including Disguise) to get the required 8 ranks, though.

[Nautilust]

I made another post for advice on optimizing. I think i'm going to go Binder X/Chameleon X not sure on whether to go Changeling or Silverbrow. Might need to go Silverbrow though for their innate disguise skill? Where should I array my ability scores? etc..

[Nifft]

I made another post for advice on optimizing. I think i'm going to go Binder X/Chameleon X not sure on whether to go Changeling or Silverbrow. Might need to go Silverbrow though for their innate disguise skill? Where should I array my ability scores? etc..

You need Silverbrow for Disguise, or you need to find some other way to get Disguise as a class skill.

Binder 5 is great. You get a bonus feat at level 4 (where you start) which pays for Improved Binding, and you get access to a bunch of great Vestiges, which include level 4 Vestiges (at Binder 5).

If you make it to higher levels,, you'll probably want to expand your Binder capabilities, perhaps by doing something like Binder 5 / Chameleon 10 / Knight of the Sacred Seal 5.


Binder 3 is a lot of fun with Totemist 2, specifically because you get +2d6 Sneak Attack from Binder and then a bunch of natural attacks from Totemist.


Binder 1 / Wizard 3 / Anima Mage is also great. You get Naberius which makes Corrupt and Sanctified spellcasting a lot more palatable. (Naberius is a big part of why I adore the Anima Mage PrC.) Eventually, you get access to even more Vestiges via Anima Mage, but starting out with just plain Naberius every day is perfectly fine.

[Nautilust]

GM declined this build aswell. citing the stronger a character I make the higher the CR he will have to make encounters and the more other people will die because of me. On top of this things aren't going very well for me IRL so I snapped at him. He said to make whatever I wanted. I decided I'd meet him half-way.

So I'm either playing a Shugenja/Void Disciple or a Wu Jen/Jade Pheonix Mage Both will probably be weaker than the wizard and the sorcerer in the party i'm hoping.

[Nifft]

GM declined this build aswell. citing the stronger a character I make the higher the CR he will have to make encounters and the more other people will die because of me. On top of this things aren't going very well for me IRL so I snapped at him. He said to make whatever I wanted. I decided I'd meet him half-way.

So I'm either playing a Shugenja/Void Disciple or a Wu Jen/Jade Pheonix Mage Both will probably be weaker than the wizard and the sorcerer in the party i'm hoping.

Binder is significantly weaker than Wizard or Sorcerer, so ... yeah.

It seems like the main point of contention is that you want to use a weird subsystem that the DM doesn't understand, and the DM thinks that you're doing so because it's somehow more powerful than Wizard spellcasting.

The weird subsystems are universally less powerful than Wizard spellcasting -- but you would get some tricks that a standard Wizard couldn't do, and that's enough to trigger confirmation bias in an already-distrustful mind. My advice is: you won't win trust by butting heads.


Just make an Enchanter 5 / Incantatatrix 10 (or Elf Generalist 5 / Incantatrix 10, or Changeling Wizard with racial subs 5 / Incantatrix 10).

Take the Spontaneous Divination ACF at level 5.

There's an Evoker in your party, so ban Evocation. Now you don't compete.

All of those are simple, very powerful, and none of them involve any unusual subsystems.


Or just make a Druid and win everything forever by virtue of being a Druid.

[Nautilust]

Funny thing is he mentioned I could play a Druid like he wanted me to play one. But if he's so worried about me overpowering people why would he suggest Druid and not like Ranger or Fighter.

I think you might be right.

[Nifft]

Funny thing is he mentioned I could play a Druid like he wanted me to play one. But if he's so worried about me overpowering people why would he suggest Druid and not like Ranger or Fighter.

I think you might be right.

Lots of inexperienced people think that weird == untrustworthy, and familiar == trustworthy.

Play a Druid, or something else from the core books.

This has nothing to do with how strong the character actually is, it's just about how much trust this DM has for the core books.


Druids are awesome. Eggynack has a fantastic guidebook. Google "Being Everything druid eggynack" and you'll find it.

[Nautilust]

i'll keep that in mind

i've already played every class from Core though. That's why i'm reaching out to new books.