Help me make a Rogue

[Zangief1983]

Looking for assistance trying to make a high damage dealing Rogue. First time Rogue player could you suggest a build for me. In terms of attribute allocation and what feats I should take? Any help would be greatly appreciative. Thanks a lot.

[Azgeroth]

DEX, aaaaaalll the DEX, the sooner you hit 20, the better.

weapon isn't so important, when you get to level 5+ as most of your damage, as in, almost all of it is from sneak attack..

good races, wood-elf, halfing.

both get +2 dex, and have some extra sneakiness which is going to be important for those sneak attacks.

as for archetype, swashbuckler gives you even more opportunity for sneak attacks, so i would recommend that. also adding your cha to initiative is no bad thing. so make sure that has at least a +1.

feats?

lucky, maybe xbox expert, so you can dual wield a rapier and a light crossbow, fun times ahead.

are you planning on going ranged or melee??

[Zangief1983]

Awesome, planning on going melee. Is Human not as good as wood elf or halfling when it comes to Rogues?

[NiklasWB]

It's actually pretty hard to build a bad Rogue in 5e. A lot of the power comes from the core class (sneak attack being the major one), and whichever Archetype you pick you should be good. As far as stats go, are you doing point by 27? In either case, just bumb DEX to 16 or 17 from level 1, 18 at level 4 and then max it to 20 at level 8 (or level 10 at the latest if you want an early feat). DEX basically gives you everything you need to be a good Rogue; Initative, attack roll, damage, AC, sneakiness etc. Get some descent CON as hit points are universally important (like 14-16 to start with). The rest is up to you... want to be charismatic, get CHA, want to be good at investigation and knowing stuff about stuff, raise INT. WIS is pretty important for perception, so I'd suggest at least a 12 there. STR is pretty unimportant besides athletics, so I'd leave that at a 10. How you distribute the points depend on the racial bonuses.

After that it comes down to what kind of rogue you want. Ranged? Melee? Two weapon fighting is a good option for the Rogue to give an extra chance to land a sneak attack per round. Just use a finesse weapon in each hand. In that case, take the Dual Wielder feat. Sharpshooter could be good if you use ranged weapons (but you would actually rather hit with you attack than get the +10, so not as great as for a fighter or ranger, but still good). Crossbow expert could be good if you want to make a crossbow build. As mentioned, weapons aren't really important since almost all your damage comes from sneak attack. Might as well use a tooth pick (well, dagger) as a rapier. Mobile is a great feat all around, as is Alert, Lucky (though I personally don't like it) or Resilient CON. Again, depends on what kind of Rogue you want. I'd say you can quite easily get at least 2 feats. Classic Sneak-thief? Go with Mobile and Dual Wielder maybe. Want a little bit of magic? take Arcane Trickster or the feat Magic Initiate.

Expertise kind of also define what kind of Rogue you are. You get 4 in total. Some good overall choices for skills are either Perception, Stealth, Athletics, Acrobatics, Thieves Tools, Investigation. Again, depends on what you envision your character to be good at.

My own current character is a fighter/swashbuckler multiclass and I'm going to take Martial Adept and Defensive Duelist for the flavor, not so much because they are the best feats. He also took expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics for the swashbuckling derring-do like swinging from a chandelier or climbing a rope.

Good luck, and remember, always try to flank, use Hide or get advantage every round in some other way. The Rogue is supposed to get sneak attack pretty much every round, but you need to understand how the rule about sneak attack works to get them.

EDIT: Human is fine, Variant Human is probably better though if it is allowed.

[Specter]

Awesome, planning on going melee. Is Human not as good as wood elf or halfling when it comes to Rogues?

Variant Human is fine. Tough, Alert and Lucky are generic feats that are good for any rogue. What you may miss by going human is darkvision. This will depend on the rest of your party; if everyone can see in the dark but you it's less fun, but otherwise you're cool.

[Zangief1983]

My GM is allowing us to play Variant Human. Would you suggest for my first feat I snag Dual wield? I am planning to play the classic sneak attack rogue :)

[nickl_2000]

My GM is allowing us to play Variant Human. Would you suggest for my first feat I snag Dual wield? I am planning to play the classic sneak attack rogue :)

Dual Wielding will give you the most bang for it's buck at early levels (although you are using it for a better chance to get a sneak attack in at later levels).

Do you think you will be scouting for the party? Because if you are and your DM is worried about vision, not having Darkvision will very much hurt you.


Other decent feats -
Mobile - Move around more on the battlefield without AoOs, always good
Lucky - It's just great
Healer - amazing at low levels, and still good at higher levels with your rogue free object interaction. Also frees up the cleric to cast other spells
Tough - Not your ideal, but decent to stay alive.


I'll be honest, I LOVE healer and the rogues ability at higher levels to do it for free is icing on the cake.

[Zangief1983]

Would getting Lucky instead of Dual Wield be OK?

[nickl_2000]

Would getting Lucky instead of Dual Wield be OK?

Sure, you likely won't regret either lucky or dual wielder.

Lucky gives you more versatility where it can be used.
Dual Wield gives you +1 AC and being able to draw two weapons in one round.

[Mikal]

I'd also consider a level or two for fighter, especially if dual wielding
It'll give you a fighting style so you can add dex to your off-hand attack, and level 2 gets you action surge, for extra damage/attempts to land Sneak Attack.

[Easy_Lee]

Awesome, planning on going melee. Is Human not as good as wood elf or halfling when it comes to Rogues?

Hiding is easier at range than in melee. Additionally, you won't always have a friend standing next to the target. For those reasons, I think sharpshooter + crossbow expert is generally the gold standard for rogue damage. The exception is if you have additional means of getting opportunity attacks.

If you're into multiclassing, rogue 5 / revised ranger 6 will get you extra attack, archery, colossus slayer, two Favored enemies with +4 damage against them, and 3D6 sneak attack.

[Finieous]

You want to go melee, and lots of folks are suggesting swashbuckler, which is good advice. Arcane Trickster will actually do a little more damage with an owl familiar and booming blade. If you go Variant Human and pick up booming blade and find familiar with the Magic Initiate feat, you get the nice combo (BB + Cunning Action Disengage) starting from 2nd level. You can also take the light cantrip for visibility management since you won't have darkvision (your owl also has excellent darkvision). This also frees up an out-of-school spell at 3rd level, so you can take shield (for example).

If your DM is the sort who will kill your owl at all costs, take that into account. I have a 9th level Arcane Trickster that I play in AL at conventions, and he's died once from a big AoE. Typically, in my experience, the owl's fly speed is good enough that he can stay out of AoEs and still be in range to Help.

[JellyPooga]

My GM is allowing us to play Variant Human. Would you suggest for my first feat I snag Dual wield? I am planning to play the classic sneak attack rogue :)

Dual Wielder gives you +1 AC and (average) +1 damage per attack (which as a single class Rogue, will be 2). It's strictly worse than increasing your Dex score IMO. Making your Dex odd at 1st level and taking a "half-feat" that increases Dex is probably a better option than Dual Wielder.

[DivisibleByZero]

Sure, you likely won't regret either lucky or dual wielder.

Dual Wielder sucks on a Rogue. There are many upon many upon many better options. Practically anything else would be better.
DW gives you the ability to draw two weapons at once.
Who cares?
DW gives you +1 AC.
You have decent AC, Uncanny Dodge, and can disengage as a bonus action already, so that's a very minor perk.
DW gives you the ability to use better weapons....
...but those "better" weapons aren't finesse, which means you can't sneak attack with them anyway. Useless. Oh, except for dual wielding rapiers. And you have a whole crap-ton of better uses for your bonus action as a Rogue, so when you *DO* use your bonus action to attack, it's because your first attack missed. At that point you're turning zero damage into sneak attack damage. That extra 1 point from a rapier? Who cares about 1 point? You just turned zero into 11d6. That 1 extra point is irrelevant.

A Rogue who takes Dual Wielder just wasted an ASI.
There are a lot of feats that can work for a Rogue. Dual Wielder is not one of them.
I would be very hesitant to take any advice about building a Rogue from someone who suggests you take that feat, and in this thread there are already a few. Beware.

[Citan]

Looking for assistance trying to make a high damage dealing Rogue. First time Rogue player could you suggest a build for me. In terms of attribute allocation and what feats I should take? Any help would be greatly appreciative. Thanks a lot.
Hi!

it's easy enough to build a good Rogue, especially if you don't plan on multiclassing.
For a sneaky Rogue, I'd suggest either Assassin (long-term, campaign-level sneaky) or Arcane Tricskter (immediate, scene-level sneaky). Unless you really want to play the "thieving" part of sneakiness, in which case obviously Thief. :)

For a Variant Human DEX Rogue, Dual Wielder is unfortunately not bringing much: note that you don't need it to be a dual-wielder technically, and considering all available finesse weapons, you would only gain 1-2 average damage compared to
just use weapons that are both finesse and light.

I'd rather suggest...
- Mobile feat: allows you to freely disengage the enemy you attacked, freeing your bonus action for another attack or Dash/Hide: great boon to your action economy. +10 feet speed.
- Healer feat: lackluster at low level, great at higher level, but only if you play in a party with low healing and go Thief. Otherwise, there are more immediately useful options.
- Sharpshooter: whether you fight a whole encounter at range or just have to switch from contact (scimitar) to close range (thrown daggers), this will be a great bang for your buck, unless you decide your character vowed to never ever use ranged attacks. ^^
- Magic Initiate: if you don't go Arcane Trickster, a good way to get a familiar and weapon cantrips to boost your damage.
- Mage Slayer: lackluster at low level for a Rogue, especially in melee, at higher level it will give you a great chance to break an enemy concentration from a safe distance with a powerful Sneak Attack arrow.
- Ritual Caster: if you want to be very useful outside combats (I mean, besides being an Expert at at least 2 skills and soon enough 4 ;)) this can be very helpful.
- Observant: if you want to be the party scout and/or go Arcane Trickster (Comprehend Languages) this is a great feat.

Also, I'd bump DEX to 18 with the first or second ASI (preferably first), then ensure I have 20 DEX before I hit level 16 (taking it as 10th or 12th level ASI is usually a right play).

Have fun ;)

[90sMusic]

Tabaxi my man.

They have everything you could want for a rogue built-in.

+2 dex bonus, a climb speed (no more climb checks, especially good if you dump strength), natural weapons so you can never be completely disarmed, the ability to double your movespeed without costing an action or bonus action and stacks with dash action/bonus AND it resets simply after spending one round without moving. They are also naturally proficient in both Stealth AND Perception AND they have Darkvision.

I don't think you can get something better than a Tabaxi for an awesome rogue.

[Easy_Lee]

Crossbow expert is the single strongest damage feature on a rogue. It effectively gives you the TWF fighting style at range.

Combine with Sharpshooter for the highest damage potential on your turn that a single classed rogue can muster.

Combine with Skulker for a nice trick: each round, you can make an attack and then hide with your bonus action. If you miss, you aren't revealed because of Skulker. So you may make a bonus action attack with crossbow expert and still get your sneak attack. Then bonus action hide the next round and continue the process.

[Finieous]

a climb speed (no more climb checks, especially good if you dump strength),

Where does this idea come from? A climb speed doesn't mean you never have to make Strength checks to climb. It's not Spider Climb. Consider the potion of climbing: It gives you a climb speed and advantage on Strength checks made to climb...

[90sMusic]

Where does this idea come from? A climb speed doesn't mean you never have to make Strength checks to climb. It's not Spider Climb. Consider the potion of climbing: It gives you a climb speed and advantage on Strength checks made to climb...

Spider Climb lets you climb up any wall/surface.

A climb speed lets you climb anything that would be normally climbable using an athletics check.

It's the difference between scaling a vertical wall with a smooth surface and literally no holds or cracks of any kind vs getting up a tree or down a rocky cliff face easily.

The "idea" comes from Mike Mearls. He is the one that stated no climb check is needed for a creature with a climb speed. Also, it was this way in previous editions as well. It's similar to having a swim speed means you don't have to make athletic checks to swim. Can you imagine the mundane ridiculousness of every aquatic creature in a campaign having the possibility of failing an athletics check to swim and just floundering around without moving?

But make no mistake, that doesn't mean you can climb on ceilings or up unclimbable surfaces as you can with spider climb. The surface still has to be climbable, you can just do so without a check.

[Finieous]

The "idea" comes from Mike Mearls.

Not that Mearls is definitive, but can you point me to that comment? Makes the potion of climbing a real puzzler!

[DivisibleByZero]

Spider Climb lets you climb up any wall/surface.

A climb speed lets you climb anything that would be normally climbable using an athletics check.

It's the difference between scaling a vertical wall with a smooth surface and literally no holds or cracks of any kind vs getting up a tree or down a rocky cliff face easily.

The "idea" comes from Mike Mearls. He is the one that stated no climb check is needed for a creature with a climb speed. Also, it was this way in previous editions as well. It's similar to having a swim speed means you don't have to make athletic checks to swim. Can you imagine the mundane ridiculousness of every aquatic creature in a campaign having the possibility of failing an athletics check to swim and just floundering around without moving?

But make no mistake, that doesn't mean you can climb on ceilings or up unclimbable surfaces as you can with spider climb. The surface still has to be climbable, you can just do so without a check.

I think he's simply asking you to explain why the potion grants Advantage to climb checks.... if you don't need to make them via having a climb speed.
And he has a seriously good point....

See, normally, your movement speed is effectively halved while climbing (as each 1' of movement requires and extra 1').
It is my understanding that a climb speed does nothing more than let you climb at that speed, meaning you don't use extra movement while climbing that height/distance.
Like, if your movement is 30', normally you can only climb 15'.
But if your movement is 30' and you have a climb speed of 30', then you're good to go.
You still need to make climb checks as normal, unless you have a way around that (spider climb, Advantage from a potion, whatever).

edit:
Yep
From the MM:
CLIMB
A monster that has a climbing speed can use all or part of its movement to move on vertical surfaces. The monster doesn't need to s pend extra movement to climb.

From the PHB:
Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling
While climbing or swimming, each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain), unless a creature has a climbing or swimming speed. At the DM ’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.

Even if you have a climb speed, the DM may still ask for a roll. Having a climb speed does nothing in and of itself except negate the normal double movement requirement.

[DKing9114]

Awesome, planning on going melee. Is Human not as good as wood elf or halfling when it comes to Rogues?

Variant Human is solid, as is Half-Elf (especially if you consider dipping into a charisma caster and/or becoming proficient in charisma skills). As far as stats go, I'd recommend keeping everything out of the negative, and as many positive modifiers as you can get. This is obviously easier with point buy than rolling, but the idea is that you should be very versatile outside of combat as well as within.

As to Feats, Alert, Defensive Duelist, Dual Wielder, Lucky, and Skulker are all possible choices if you want to primarily act as a melee combatant. Sharpshooter and Crossbow expert are solid options if you want to do more at range. Lastly, Actor and Dungeon Delver are possibilities as well, but I would advise talking to your DM and your party before getting either of those. If the campaign is likely to include a lot of Dungeon crawling and exploring hidden ruins, or options to run social trickery and pull cons on npcs, one of those Feats might be helpful, but otherwise they will feel wasted.

You should also talk to the DM and party when planning out archetypes, expertise options, and multiclassing. If the campaign world has a lot of magic items, and the campaign could have plenty of urban content, the Thief archetype has a chance to shine. The 3rd level and 17th level abilities of the Assassin are great, but only if the DM doesn't expect to railroad or funnel you into combat, while the 9th and 13th level abilities are only helpful if the DM likes making social encounters challenging. Swashbuckler and Arcane Trickster are both good options for the goals of the character you've stated. As to multiclassing, you can pretty much dip into anything except barbarian (if you want to dip paladin, ask your DM to let you substitute Dexterity for Strength in the class requirements). Keep in mind that your Sneak Attack damage only triggers once per turn, meaning abilities that let you attack with your reaction are valuable.

[Theodoxus]

With point buy, I agree with Easy - XBX, SS and Skulker will be your best bet for sustained high damage. If you can grab a level of fighter for the archery fighting style, that'll let you land hits that much more often. I'd probably start V-Human, fighter 1 (+1 to Dex and Con so Dex 16, Con 15); rest whatever.

1st feat, if you go XBX, you're gaining an offhand attack with a hand crossbow and the ability to shoot in melee range without penalty.

If you go SS, you're ignoring cover and can trade out -5 to hit for +10 to damage. (With 16 Dex (+3), +2 Proficiency, +2 Archery, that's a net +2 to hit your target, gaining +13 (3 from Dex) on every arrow that hits. That's going to dwarf sneak attack at 1st level...

If you go Skulker, you no longer have disadvantage on Wisdom (perception) checks in dim light. Effectively giving you "low light" vision for a human. The ability to hide and remain hidden on a miss is very nice as well.


However, if you're planning on a more melee centric build, and staying human, I'd still recommend skulker for your consideration. It really helps you avoid obstacles in the dim - and most places darkness (requiring darkvision to overcome) isn't a factor outside of dungeon crawls - and if that's the campaign, I highly recommend not using a non-darkvision race. It's not worth it.

As an aside, my favorite rogue build was a swashbuckling lightfoot halfling, maximizing both Dex and Cha for the bennies and eventually multiclassing to Paladin (ultimately being Rog 9/Pal 11). Hiding behind my larger party members, darting out to stab the lone badguy and hustling back to the safety of the front liners was a blast. For a melee rogue, there was nothing better.

Once the paladin levels started, the added smite and shield/medium armor really upped both my damage and my survivability. The +15 to Initiative (20 Dex, 20 Cha, Alert feat) meant I was always first and could chart my own destiny. +5 to saves... half damage from spells (I was ancients)... evasion, uncanny dodge... I was a vicious little tank. The party loved me. The DM enjoyed my antics enough to not want to kill me outright... The best part? His name was Mr. Sinister "it's a name, not an intention".

[Finieous]

See, normally, your movement speed is effectively halved while climbing (as each 1' of movement requires and extra 1').
It is my understanding that a climb speed does nothing more than let you climb at that speed, meaning you don't use extra movement while climbing that height/distance.

That's your understanding because that's all it says under the definition of climb speed in the MM, or for class abilities like Second-Story Work.

Now, I personally think a lot of DMs ask for way too many ability checks, rather than just allowing characters/creatures to succeed at routine operations for which they have trained or natural aptitude. But...climbing creatures can fail, and fall. I can post some cat GIFs for proof, if required.

[DivisibleByZero]

That's your understanding because that's all it says under the definition of climb speed in the MM, or for class abilities like Second-Story Work.

Now, I personally think a lot of DMs ask for way too many ability checks, rather than just allowing characters/creatures to succeed at routine operations in which they are proficient. But...climbing creatures can fail, and fall. I can post some cat GIFs for proof, if required.

As edited in above:

Yep
From the MM:
CLIMB
A monster that has a climbing speed can use all or part of its movement to move on vertical surfaces. The monster doesn't need to s pend extra movement to climb.

From the PHB:
Climbing, Swimming, and Crawling
While climbing or swimming, each foot of movement costs 1 extra foot (2 extra feet in difficult terrain), unless a creature has a climbing or swimming speed. At the DM ’s option, climbing a slippery vertical surface or one with few handholds requires a successful Strength (Athletics) check. Similarly, gaining any distance in rough water might require a successful Strength (Athletics) check.

Even if you have a climb speed, the DM may still ask for a roll. Having a climb speed does nothing in and of itself except negate the normal double movement requirement.

[Strangways]

Take a close look at the rules for movement in combat and the rules for when a rogue gets sneak attack damage. As others have pointed out, maximizing your damage as a rogue means ensuring you are in a position to get sneak attack damage at every opportunity because your sneak attack damage will be the vast majority of all the damage you do with any given hit.

Generally speaking, you get sneak attack damage when you 1) attack with advantage, or 2) you have a non-incapacitated ally adjacent to your target (technically he doesn’t even need to be an ally as long as he’s an enemy of your target, so it could be someone who is an enemy of both of you). Very often in combat you’ll be able to strike at someone adjacent to an ally, and get sneak attack damage that way, but that won’t always be possible.

So how do you get advantage? Typically that will involve attacking from a hidden position or having someone (or something) help your attack. An ally (including a familiar if you have one) can do a help action for your attack, which will give you advantage. An arcane trickster rogue can (eventually) get an invisible mage hand that can, effectively, do the same thing, giving the arcane trickster advantage on attacks. The other way to get advantage is to attack, then move (typically out of line of sight), then hide, then attack the next round from the hidden position. When this works, it will give you advantage. Rogues, fortunately, have Cunning Action which lets them try to hide every round as a bonus action. That’s why you’ll often see rogues doing attack/move/hide/attack round after round.

Now having read all that, go have a look at the racial abilities of the Lightfoot Halfling. They, unlike other races, can move through the squares of medium sized creatures, and can hide behind medium sized creatures (including their human/elven/dwarves etc. allies). In other words, do not underestimate how deadly a Lightfoot Halfling rogue can be in melee combat. He can move through the battlefield to get into position, run behind allies to hide after striking an opponent, and just generally be a holy terror in any big, crowded melee situation. That big, bad, evil spell caster in the back who thinks he’s safe behind his bulky half-orc minions is going to have his day ruined by a Lightfoot Halfling with a pair of short swords.

[djreynolds]

There are a few schools of thought on the rogue.

For me, it is important that you land that sneak attack every round.

Now you do not have to be the "scout" "point man" of the party, its just that your usual high dex and light armor and expertise makes it easier, but you do not have to be the stereotypical rogue

IMO, every party needs a skill person(s). This is essential really because it saves on resources. What do I mean? A wizard should have levitate, but a rogue can climb up a cliff and drop a rope. A wizard has invisibility, but you have stealth. Etc, etc. Your skills save party resources. But a monk or ranger can stealth "as well" as possibly you can depending on skills and abilities

In time, a well made caster can duplicate what your skills do.

So really it is your sneak attack damage that defines you.

Now you can already dual wield with light weapons, but really 2 short swords is adequate. I like sharpshooter and crossbow expert, but they are not necessary to land that sneak attack damage.

I think all of the rogue archetypes are awesome

Thief makes you better at the classic skills such as climbing and stealth
Arcane trickster can us their magic to either enhance their skill set, or like a wizard duplicate them and instead focus on other skills, like charisma and intelligence checks
Swashbuckler is more melee orientated

So you must discover what your party needs and what you can cover down on. Who else is in the party? You might select crossbow expert and sharpshooter, but there is an archery based ranger, a wizard, a warlock, and a cleric in the party... and you end up in melee.

So your archetype, skill selection, feat selection will really depend on your party composition. Who else is in your party?

[Zangief1983]

Very detailed responses all thanks a lot. Our party consists of a Barbarian, a wizard and myself the Rogue.