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Magic Myrmidon
2017-10-05, 12:53 PM
I'm gonna be joining a Dark Eye game on Friday, and looking over character options and trying to come up with a character concept. Unfortunately, the setting seems massive, being built up over 30 years, and I'm having trouble finding info about the world.

Sure, the 5th edition book has primers on culture and the gods and such, but it can be hard to absorb. I don't know what the state of the world is typically like at this point in the game, I don't know the relationships between countries and races, and I don't know the history at all. I imagine this is mainly because the game was in German until recently.

Does anyone know of a sort of "primer" that I can find? Unfortunately, I can only read English, so any German sources are a no go.

Feel free to talk about whatever stories you may have with the game, yourself, too. I'm loving the look of the system, it's just the fluff side that I'm having trouble getting a grasp on.

Kapow
2017-10-07, 02:14 PM
Wow, you're asking for something.
DSA (as we Germany call it ;)) was the first RPG I played, back in '88 and is still the game I played second most.
It has changed a lot over this time, and the fluff can really be overwhelming.

As always, it will be best to talk to your GM and/or group.
But I can at least try to get you started.

The continent, DSA takes place on (Aventurien in german) is home to elves (and half-elves), dwarves, orks (and half-orks), goblins, lizardmen (called Achaz) and humans. Those are the playable races, there are more. Additionally, there are different cultures for all races.

Humans are the only people, that didn't originate from “Aventurien“, they came, a loooong time ago from 2-3 other continents, first as refugees (fleeing from slavery, today they are the viking-like “Thorwaler“ and their spin-off cultures), then as conquerors, waging war mostly against goblins and orks.

Elves, dwarves and above all the lizardmen are declining for at least centuries, if not even longer.

There are a bunch of countries, often styled after real countries (not-russia - “Bornland“, not-greece - Cyclops-Isles, ...)

I just realised, that I could go on and on and on...
So, perhaps you could narrow down, what you would like to know...

Magic Myrmidon
2017-10-09, 12:45 PM
Glad I'm not just being obtuse. Kind of a relief to know that it can be overwhelming even for the people over in Germany.

It already helps to know that humans weren't from the continent of Aventurien. I didn't catch on to that.

I ended up making a womanizer from the Cyclopes Isles, who specializes in polearms and throwing weapons. So uhm. I guess most relevant would be whether the isles were ever involved in a major conflict or event.

I'm kind of curious about the high elves, and if it's known why they collapsed, but it's not particularly relevant to my new character.



I'm willing to read whatever anyone feels like talking about though.

Zejety
2017-10-09, 01:37 PM
You'll be likely to play 4.1 or 5th edition.
If playing 4.1 (or if 5th has been expanded sufficiently by now) than character options are basically unlimited, with you being able to play mundane professions like a pastry chef.
Therefore, I absolutely recommend to speak to your DM and fellow players about the style of the campaign.

I personally know many DMs who prefer to Dark Eye as some kind of "anti-cliche D&D", where combat only comes up occasionally. However, if combat does come up, a not-combat oriented character will be bored to death, either hiding or rolling with what will essentially be a 20% to hit (factoring in parry rolls of your opponent).
So if in doubt, play an actual adventurer.

The setting is indeed vast with a long history. The tome is low-fantasy-ish middle ages. Magic, and wizards exist (and there are big wizard academies in large cities), but you won't find wizards in remote villages (though a witch might live nearby!). The usual fantasy races exist but do not mingle much, but it varies from area to area.

The easiest way to get away with not knowing much is to play a character who doesn't know either. Education isn't readily available in the setting for most poor folk, or people from remote places. Andergast and Nostria (sorry, don't know the English names) are sub-settings (kingdoms) pretty much explicitly designed for beginner play. They do not deal much with outsiders, are pretty much small run-of-the-mill medieval european kingdoms. They are at war with eachother more often than not, and therefore progress is a little slower and people just xenophobic enough not to care much about the rest of the world.
Playing a character from there makes it so they know as little about the world as you.

[Edit: Cyclopes Isles sound good in this regard. IRCL, they kept mostly to themselves.]

The central kingdoms/nations of Aventuria can be losely compared to certain historical countries around the medieval age and later (again, using German names):
- Mittelreich = Germany
- Horasreich = France/Italy; has some elements of the renaissance era
- Almada = Spain
- Bornland = Russia
- Thorwal = VIKINGS
- Cyclops Isles = Ancient Greece

The main pantheon are the Twelve, with sun+justice god Praios at the top. All 12 would probably be considered good or neutral aligned in D&D terms. There is a single evil god, the Nameless One, but evil outsiders are usually demons, headed by 12 arch-demons, all of which are counterparts or perversions of The Twelve.

I'm less versed in the southern regions, so I can't help much with those. But depending on the nation, slavery and black magic might be acceptable there.


Hope this helps.

Floret
2017-10-09, 01:50 PM
Glad I'm not just being obtuse. Kind of a relief to know that it can be overwhelming even for the people over in Germany.

It already helps to know that humans weren't from the continent of Aventurien. I didn't catch on to that.

I ended up making a womanizer from the Cyclopes Isles, who specializes in polearms and throwing weapons. So uhm. I guess most relevant would be whether the isles were ever involved in a major conflict or event.

I'm kind of curious about the high elves, and if it's known why they collapsed, but it's not particularly relevant to my new character.

I'm willing to read whatever anyone feels like talking about though.

A slight correction on that "Humans aren't from Aventuria" thing - it's more complicated, as the different human cultures have very differing origins (As mentioned, Dark Eye has... layers... this might get wordy, feel free to ask follow-up questions).

The Utulu, for example, come from the Continent of Uthuria in the south, for unknown (Well, to me) reasons.
The Thorwalians (And with them other cultures related - Fjarnings and Gjalsker) came fleeing from an invading army from the Empire in Myranor (A continent from the west). Later, originally as religious outcasts, later setting out to conquer the whole darn continent (And, while not totally succeeding, doing pretty well at it), some of the descendants of the Empire that pushed out the ancestors of the Thorwalians also came across the sea, settling further south (Leading to divine intervention blocking seafaring between continents. Sort of, at least.). What they conquered are today Horasia, the Cyclops isles, the Middenrealm, the Bornland, Northern Aventuria, and Southern Aventuria. Of course, they also intermingled in numerous other places.
We do get some humans originally from Aventuria, though - the Tulamids, and all cultures related to them (Novadi, Maraskans, Ferkina, Norbards, etc.) are natives, as are the Moha and other tribes from the jungles (iirc), and the Nivesen from the north.

As for the cyclops isles, the main inspiration here seems to be ancient greece - architecture, names, clothing and food fit that bill, as do mythological creatures that you might expect from there (Minotaurs, Satyrs and the name-giving cyclopses, that are masterful smiths, but potentially hostile to humans.) They aren't, however, technologically as much behind as that might imply, and are legally ruled by the Horasian empire (Think Renaissance/early Baroque Italy/France), despite their head of "state" being called (sea)king.
They have an oracle, inspired of course by the oracle of Delphi, that sits of the island of Balträa and is dedicated to Praios. They are volcanic islands, maybe that is interesting? And they have a more-than average level of fairy action, given that the islands are rather sparsely populated.
As with almost all of Aventuria, full gender equality applies, and the twelve gods are worshipped - heavy focus being on Efferd (God of the sea and fishing), but all of the other gods getting their due parts. A womanizer would probably pray much to Rahja, goddess of beauty, wine, horsemanship, festivals, and sex.

As for the islands involvement in recent conflicts... They were, naturally, involved in the recent war of succession for the Horasian throne (And in fact got renamed after it, though I don't know the reason). As part of Horasia they are also drawn into every war the country fights, most recently against the Thorwalians up until 1026 BF (Current year of the 5th edition is 1040, if your GM sticks to that). Thorwalian ships still occasionally raid villages on the cyclops isles as part of their viking-shtick. Acting independently of the Thorwalian state, but the Cyclopeans probably don't much care about that distinction.
The current ruler was missing for a while, but is back as of 1020 BF.
...I know nothing of too much importance that you'd need to know there.

Why the high elves collapsed is indeed known, but might be a Spoiler for a lot of adventures. If you don't care about these things, I might try and gather my recollection of these things.

Zejety
2017-10-09, 02:22 PM
Oh, and if you got curious about the tone, there are two excellent (recent-ish) point and click adventures set in aventuria (although they don't exactly cover the whole political and geological landscape :smallwink:): Chains of Satinav and Memoria,

Magic Myrmidon
2017-10-09, 03:58 PM
This is the version I'll be playing: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/185074/The-Dark-Eye--Core-Rules?src=hottest_filtered

I think it's 5th edition.

Come to think of it, the GM says we'll be running through "Revelations from Heaven". So. No spoilers there, if possible.



This is all awesome stuff to know! A lot of the book touches on the most general aspects of the stuff you guys have brought up, but these specifics are helping me flesh out my concept a bit. For example, now I know to dislike Thorwalians! And that the Oracle is someone who exists. Maybe I'll give him some ability to identify or work with igneous rocks, if the islands are volcanic.

Zombimode
2017-10-10, 07:40 AM
I second the method of learning the world by playing the Computer games. Luckily Aventurien is the base for a number of good to excellent games. Satinavs Ketten and Memoria have already been mentioned.

The old classic Nordlandtrilogie is of course old, but strangely unrivald even to this day (especially the second installment).

There is the solid Drakensang and it's really good sequel Drakensang: Am Fluss der Zeit.

The first Blackguards is also worth checking out.


The only games I would no recommend are Blackguards 2, Demonicon and the "HD" Remake of the first part of the Nordlandtrilogie.


You will notice that I insisted on the original german titles of the games. I did this on purpose. One thing to keep in mind is that Aventurien is fundamentally a very german setting. I strongly recommend playing These games in their original language.


For a quick reference for DSA lore, there is always Wiki Aventurica (http://de.wiki-aventurica.de/wiki/Willkommen_im_Wiki_Aventurica!).

Satinavian
2017-10-10, 08:12 AM
I ended up making a womanizer from the Cyclopes Isles, who specializes in polearms and throwing weapons. So uhm. I guess most relevant would be whether the isles were ever involved in a major conflict or event.It is not the most chaotic region. Ignoring the older stuff, it once was part of the Midden Realm but the ruler made some arrangements with a neighboring queen to secure independence. Once he died, this particular queen became heir and ruled both kingdoms. She later declared herself Horas and that is why the Islands are now in the Horas realm.
Some years later another Cyclopean ruler who had been lost in some fey realms for centuries reemerged but instead of fighting over the title the stuff was solved diplomatically. He rules the isslands but is subject to the Horas.
Another couple of years later the Horas realm had a pretty nasty civil war about succession. The islands were not involved that much. But some people in Al Anfa decided that this weakness was perfect to enforce some ancient claim to a certain island. Unfortunately for them, they were a tad late and found the various Horasian factions united enough to defend that island and lost a very huge see battle against them.

I'm kind of curious about the high elves, and if it's known why they collapsed, but it's not particularly relevant to my new character.That is quite complicated. But it is basically the fault of the nameless god who for unknown reason has some special hate for elfs.
There were quite a number of high elf realms. And at least 6 had a theme with one of the elements and a capital built at a place with special elemental affinity and every one of them has a story of its fall.
The elves themself blame the fall mostly on hybris and certain mistakes which can be extracted from the different stories. And thus all the modern elf cultures drew different lessons from the fall. The Firn elves think the fall was because of relying on gods, the steppe elfs thing the fall was because living in houses and fortifications where you might get trapped, the wood elfs think the fall was because the way of the high elves was completely wrong to begin with.

Kapow
2017-10-10, 01:43 PM
Okay, maybe I was wrong with the origins of humanity...
I probably could have read up, before posting. It's been a while.

I'd like to point out the proximity of the realms of fey on the cyclops isles again.
It is at least a good inspiration to fluff stuff like “Knowledge: myths & legends“ (not sure if it's called like that in english) or superstition or the like...

warty goblin
2017-10-12, 12:36 PM
You will notice that I insisted on the original german titles of the games. I did this on purpose. One thing to keep in mind is that Aventurien is fundamentally a very german setting. I strongly recommend playing These games in their original language.


Those are indeed very good games; IMHO Drakensang: River of Time is the gold standard for pauseable real time RPGs. On the other hand, I suspect learning a foreign language to play a computer game as background to a tabletop RPG is probably asking a bit much of a person. But they should play River of Time anyway, because it's bloody fantastic

There are a number of DSA/TDE settings material only books available. This (https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Eye-World-Aventuria-FPR15002/dp/1932564063/ref=sr_1_23?ie=UTF8&qid=1507829554&sr=8-23&keywords=the+dark+eye)is the one for the old edition (IIRC 4th) that was translated into English. I have it, and have read it, and it's really really detailed, although about as dry as a desert. I'd imagine it's a bit behind in the timeline now, and obviously the stat blocks won't be correct for the new edition, but there's hardly any of those anyway.

This (https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Eye-Aventuria-Almanac/dp/3957523273/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=3957523273&pd_rd_r=N9Z5V3ABB1CC1BE6QK48&pd_rd_w=Lxw2r&pd_rd_wg=gAjX5&psc=1&refRID=N9Z5V3ABB1CC1BE6QK48&dpID=616RcwheuYL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=detail)is apparently the equivalent book for the new English edition. I don't have this one (yet), but I'd almost be willing to recommend it sight-unseen, given how much of an improvement the new edition has made in terms of quality and readability.

Floret
2017-10-12, 01:43 PM
This (https://www.amazon.com/Dark-Eye-Aventuria-Almanac/dp/3957523273/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=3957523273&pd_rd_r=N9Z5V3ABB1CC1BE6QK48&pd_rd_w=Lxw2r&pd_rd_wg=gAjX5&psc=1&refRID=N9Z5V3ABB1CC1BE6QK48&dpID=616RcwheuYL&preST=_SY291_BO1,204,203,200_QL40_&dpSrc=detail)is apparently the equivalent book for the new English edition. I don't have this one (yet), but I'd almost be willing to recommend it sight-unseen, given how much of an improvement the new edition has made in terms of quality and readability.

From having read the German version: One of the best books of the new edition (Which is alltogether my preferred one as a whole). I can whole-heartedly recommend it for everyone interested in the setting (Be they newcomers or veterans). I cannot judge the translation, of course, but everything else was great - not in too great amounts of detail (That's what the more specific Regionalbände are for, as for example "Warring kingdoms" that had a crowdfunding a while ago iirc?), but incredible as a primer. It also comes with some stats for basic enemies, both creatures as well as humans, which I believe the 4th edition version didn't really.
(@MagicMyrmidon: Btw, yes, the book you linked is the 5th edition :smallwink:)

warty goblin
2017-10-12, 03:10 PM
From having read the German version: One of the best books of the new edition (Which is alltogether my preferred one as a whole). I can whole-heartedly recommend it for everyone interested in the setting (Be they newcomers or veterans). I cannot judge the translation, of course, but everything else was great - not in too great amounts of detail (That's what the more specific Regionalbände are for, as for example "Warring kingdoms" that had a crowdfunding a while ago iirc?), but incredible as a primer. It also comes with some stats for basic enemies, both creatures as well as humans, which I believe the 4th edition version didn't really.
(@MagicMyrmidon: Btw, yes, the book you linked is the 5th edition :smallwink:)

There's some stat blocks for notable characters in the previous edition IIRC, but they're next to useless even for that edition of the game because a lot of the characters have abilities that are detailed in supplements that were never translated. I'd be annoyed about this, except that I got the book for setting stuff, not statblocks, because let's face it, finding somebody who wants to play an extremely rules-heavy out of print RPG is not gonna happen. And if I was going to try to get anybody to play DSA (no point, nobody I know does tabletop RP) I'd definitely go for the really gorgeous and much more playable seeming new version.

(Just in case the new edition seems ridiculously complicated, the old edition required solving multiple linear or occasionally quadratic equations to work out the effects of encumbrance. This is enough to elevate it to the second most rules heavy RPG in my collection. The first is a real piece of work. )

Eldan
2017-10-13, 07:41 AM
I still occasionally have nightmares about really old DSA editions, yeah. Character building was stupidly overcomplicated sometimes.

warty goblin
2017-10-13, 01:55 PM
I still occasionally have nightmares about really old DSA editions, yeah. Character building was stupidly overcomplicated sometimes.

The previous English edition is a bit gnarly, I have no idea about the even older German versions.

I'll bet they aren't in the same league as my worst offender, a deeply obscure and utterly unplayable thing from the 1990s called GateWar. Besides having a monster who does nothing but follow the players around, watching, it also has tables. So many tables. There's a table you can roll on to determine your race, a per-race table to determine any unusual characteristics (in a vital detail if you roll an amazon, you have a chance of unusually large breasts), and a really terrific table where you cross-reference your characters (random) attributes with some more random rolls to figure out your height and weight, which determines how much health you have. IIRC amazons with large breasts do not get a bonus to health. This number only really matters for another table, which determines how much health all of your body parts have, and to figure out how much blood loss you can survive.

What I'm getting at is that you might just wear your d10s out before you even generate a character.

Morty
2017-10-14, 06:35 PM
I've wanted to take a look at this system for a while, but I'm not sure where to start. It seems there's an English version of the actual full rules now, but which book(s) do I need to actually play/run?

Eldan
2017-10-15, 07:44 AM
There's a base book, which should have most of what you need in it. Character generation and some background. There's also a monster manual style book, which I can't say much about, and the Almanach, which is a huge background tome.

Floret
2017-10-16, 04:15 AM
I've wanted to take a look at this system for a while, but I'm not sure where to start. It seems there's an English version of the actual full rules now, but which book(s) do I need to actually play/run?

To play 5th edition, someone in the group will need the Base Rules - the "Rulebook" I think it is called. Technically, this is all that is needed, but other things might improve gameplay significantly:
The Aventurian Almanach (The setting book I praised further upthread :smallwink:) contains quite a bit more background on the setting, the different regions, the history of the continent, the creatures you can find there, how trade and social status works, etc. It also contains (contrary to the Rulebook, which only has some stats for "Animals and creatures a player might have control over" - a horse, dog, some demons and elementals to summon and witches' familiars) stats for classical monsters and opponents (Orcs, wolves, but also some of the more iconic creatures from the Dark Eye that I dunno how to translate. Giant Kraken, and Flightless dragons, amongst other things.), some plants, more alchemical works; and some mysteries of the world to base plots on.
According to the statements of the designers, it is intended that all adventures and other books (except in some rare cases where it is specified) can be run with only those two books. I would heartily agree with that, but on the other hand I have quite some material from older editions lying around and am willing and able to convert things if needed (Not that I do so often), so your mileage may vary.
(I do play a self-designed epic campaign with players familiar with a lot of the old material atm, so for playing purchased adventure modules, I expect the two books to be fully enough.)

The Bestiary contains more creature stats and background, alongside gorgeous illustrations, and I found it to be a nice book, quite inspiring for adventures written with those beasts, but I wouldn't call it essential. Beyond that, there are (and will be/are translated) additional books for more player options (Aventurian Magic/Aventurian Compendium/Aventurian Gods) that are optional but expand your options (Blessed ones of more gods, more kinds of magic including Illusionists, magical bards, etc.; schools of fighting and stuff like that, with more options for existing characters as well). Then there are the Regional books that describe one region in more detail that the Almanach does, and also supply some build options for characters from that region, as well as typical creatures, etc. All of that is optional, though.

Knaight
2017-10-16, 04:37 AM
(Just in case the new edition seems ridiculously complicated, the old edition required solving multiple linear or occasionally quadratic equations to work out the effects of encumbrance. This is enough to elevate it to the second most rules heavy RPG in my collection. The first is a real piece of work. )

Encumbrance as a stat, or encumbrance as an effect? Also does "multiple" mean systems of?

I'm not saying that having to solve several linear equations sequentially to calculate encumbrance limits in the first place is good design, but it's a lot better than solving a system of linear and quadratic equations simultaneously every time you change what you're carrying.

I suspect the most rules heavy RPG in question is Phoenix Command, so either of those still seem plausible for something in second place.

warty goblin
2017-10-16, 08:45 AM
Encumbrance as a stat, or encumbrance as an effect? Also does "multiple" mean systems of?

I'm not saying that having to solve several linear equations sequentially to calculate encumbrance limits in the first place is good design, but it's a lot better than solving a system of linear and quadratic equations simultaneously every time you change what you're carrying.

I suspect the most rules heavy RPG in question is Phoenix Command, so either of those still seem plausible for something in second place.

Effect of encumbrance. Every large or heavy item (like armor) has an encumbrance rating. However the effect of encumbrance varies by skills, and everything is a skill. This means you have to calculate the effect of your shiny new hauberk on your weapons skills (there's a lot) your physical skills, social skills, etc. Each of which has a different equation. Most are linear, but IIRC swimming is quadratic.

It's only a pain when you change armor or something, but in those cases it's gotta be a real pain.

Satinavian
2017-10-16, 10:10 AM
No, all of this was linear, there has in no version been a quadratic encumberance calculation.

It usually worked (remember, last edition) this way:

You calculate your encumberance (BE). That is a value from your armor + a value based on how much you carry beyond your load (this was linearly increasing with weight)

Then for every skill you calculate your effective encumbeance (eBE) which is your skill modifier. Usually that effective BE is the BE minus a low integer number (meaning most skills allow you to ignore a certain amount of armor or load). For some skills (like swimming), the eBE was double the regular BE (doubled, not squared).

So everything was linear and not even particularly complicated. TDE was never that hard math-wise but occassionally got sidetracked with convoluted subsystems.

Tinkerer
2017-10-16, 12:57 PM
This sounds like the very definition of a system where it's handy to have a computer program backing you up.

Satinavian
2017-10-17, 01:58 AM
Unsurprisingly for 4th edition (where those problems occurred) there exist quite a lot of helpful programs.

Floret
2017-10-17, 03:42 AM
One thing I forgot to mention on the topic of Dark Eye 5th edition rules - there is an official "rules wiki (http://www.ulisses-regelwiki.de/index.php/home.html)" that contains (most of the) rules for 5th edition that have already been published, but without any of the fluff attached. Not all that useful for building characters and getting a good overview of whats possible, but great for looking up things during a session, and also possibly for checking "Is that book something I want" through looking at the rules that would be in it.
It tends to be notoriously behind publishing, but the teams responsible for the Dark Eye aren't all that big.

And, yeah, as much as I dislike the 4th edition, quadratic equations isn't quite fair.
I think maybe for the creation of new professions that was incessantly complex (and unbalanced)? But probably not even there.
The only math-wise real and utter nightmare other than having to do vast amounts of it is the exact calculation of success rates for skill tests - which hasn't improved with 5th, but can be relatively ignored during gameplay.

Morty
2017-10-17, 05:02 PM
I guess I'll try buying the basic book, since I've finally got some money. Then I might get more if I like it. The discussion about encumbrance isn't very encouraging, though.

warty goblin
2017-10-17, 06:15 PM
I guess I'll try buying the basic book, since I've finally got some money. Then I might get more if I like it. The discussion about encumbrance isn't very encouraging, though.

That's the old edition. The new edition is much simpler, pretty much everywhere without losing the cool crunchy bits like the iterated die rolls for skill checks. IIRC the new version's encumbrance is basically cross reference your armor with a table to figure out your penalties, if you've got a special ability that reduces the encumbrance for armor just use a different row.

It's still a really crunchy game with loads of rules to be sure. A lot of them are the sorts of things that you aren't likely to need constantly, like the surprisingly flavorful and detailed rules for summoning demons or other extraplanar beasties. The basic mechanics you need to play most stuff out are pretty straightforwards.

Note that I've also seen physically smaller versions of the core rules for much cheaper, like $20 or so. I didn't buy one, so I can't check against the big version, but from paging through they looked content complete. Mind, the big version is a really excellent piece of work, with good layouts and absolutely lovely art.