[3.5] Sorcerer vs. Favored Soul

[Thurbane]

Hey all,

So, generally speaking, Sorcerer is a much better class than Favored Soul. More ACFs/sub-levels, PrC options, better spell list and all around better splat book support.

But if you compare a single classed Sorcerer (with no kobold cheese or Dragonlance templates etc.) to a single classed FS, how do they compare? The FS has more spells known (from an inferior list), better BAB, saves and HD, can wear armour and get's a handful of (underwhelming) class features.

Let's assume single classed, no ACFs or PrCs, no racial sub levels, and both are limited to PHB races without templates.

I know realistically most games are not going to have these restrictions, but it's just a thought exercise. How do the two classes compare under these restrictions? Does the level matter? (i.e. does the FS have the edge at lower levels).

Cheers - T

[Cosi]

The Wizard list is better than the Cleric list. It's also better suited to picking a small number of spells at each level. The Sorcerer takes this, and it isn't terribly close. The Sorcerer also gets some amount of love from their spell list both explicitly (arcane fusion) and implicitly (arcane spellsurge + Invisible Spell + Spontaneous Casting is actually quite good).

[tyckspoon]

In probably 80% or more of cases, it's the Sorcerer. The combination of Wizard/Sorc spell list and having only one casting stat to focus on more than makes up for the Favored Soul's fairly minor class features. The exceptions would be those areas where Divine magic is traditionally better than or equal to Arcane - healing, status treatment, and buffs, where having access to the Cleric list gives you more and better spells for the job and where your split casting stats don't matter because you aren't worrying about DCs anyways.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, I should probably stipulate two distinct comparison criteria:

1.) PvP (equal levels in an arena type scenario)

2.) Ability to contribute as part of a party.

...and yes, dual casting stats definitely hurts the FS. Also, Sorcerer gets a familiar, which can be fairly optimized in and of itself.

[Anthrowhale]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526397-Warmage-vs-Favored-Soul) is an optimized Favored Soul 20 that has Initiate of Mystra + AMF + Consumptive Field + Holy Word + Necrotic {Tumor, Domination} + Persistent Spell + Delay Death. Aside from Silverbrow, I think everything is in your 'allowed' set? Anyways, this can blow through just about any monsters. In a PvP situation it probably loses initiative (and hence loses) against a sorcerer, but the sorcerer would have to work for it.

[Thurbane]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526397-Warmage-vs-Favored-Soul) is an optimized Favored Soul 20 that has Initiate of Mystra + AMF + Consumptive Field + Holy Word + Necrotic {Tumor, Domination} + Persistent Spell + Delay Death. Aside from Silverbrow, I think everything is in your 'allowed' set? Anyways, this can blow through just about any monsters. In a PvP situation it probably loses initiative (and hence loses) against a sorcerer, but the sorcerer would have to work for it.

Interesting. I don't think Silverbrow Human should skew the results too badly...

[Nifft]

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?526397-Warmage-vs-Favored-Soul) is an optimized Favored Soul 20 that has Initiate of Mystra

The Initiate of Mystra feat looks like it has a prereq: Cleric level 3.

There are other Initiate feats which don't specify Cleric in particular, but this one looks like it is not valid for a Favored Soul.

[Goaty14]

At level 1; the FvS would be better having those weapon/armor proficiencies and cure spells, at higher levels, though, it becomes less of a thing to hit stuff and more of a thing to blast stuff, making the sorc better.

[Anthrowhale]

The Initiate of Mystra feat looks like it has a prereq: Cleric level 3.

There are other Initiate feats which don't specify Cleric in particular, but this one looks like it is not valid for a Favored Soul.

Dragon Magic rescoped cleric requirements for Initiate feats. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493853-Initiate-feats-and-archivist&p=20971938&viewfull=1) for some discussion.

[Cosi]

Dragon Magic rescoped cleric requirements for Initiate feats. See here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?493853-Initiate-feats-and-archivist&p=20971938&viewfull=1) for some discussion.

Urgh. That text is so freaking stupid. In their quest to let Favored Souls take Initiate Feats, they stopped Clerics from taking them. Clerics are under no obligation to pick a deity, and as such they cannot take Initiate Feats under the Dragon Magic rules, despite the fact that the prerequisites for the vast majority of Initiate Feats literally say "Cleric Level X". In fact, I think Favored Souls are the only class who can take Initiate Feats under those rules, and I'm not even sure they strictly "qualify" so much as "the text has explicitly okayed them without explaining how they meet the requirements or even what those requirements are". I don't even think Clerics "use the Cleric list for spellcasting". They use it for spell preparation (and even that is shaky when you consider Domains), but once the spells are prepared they can just cast them.

I'm not saying you're wrong mind you, but those particular rules break the game super hard because whoever wrote them didn't bother to check what he was writing against the rest of the rules.

[heavyfuel]

Depends on what you're looking for

The FS is nigh useless in combat. It has almost no blasting spells (and the ones they do have are much worse than the sorcerer's) and they can't use SoD spells decently because they need to invest in Wisdom for it.

However, outside of combat they provide excelent "reactive-utility". That is to say that they can deal with a lot of things Clerics can deal with.


Sorcerers dominate the combat game, and aren't left behind in the utility game either, bringing Invisibility, Fly, and Teleport to the table.


Overall, I say that Sorcerers take the cake, by a mile.

[Soranar]

Until level 4 spells come into play (level 8), I would say a favored soul is far more useful than a sorcerer. After that the balance gradually shifts in the sorcerer's favor. By level 6 or 7 spells, the sorcerer becomes superior which is pretty late in the game and it never completely overshadows a favored soul.

Compare a favored soul that dumped Wisdom and ignores spells that allow saves

assume the favored soul wears a mithral full plate , uses hank's energy bow (deity's favored weapon) and has an animated shield

you have more spell knowns than the sorcerer, you don't need to waste spell knowns on redundant spells either (for example all the healing you need is provided by lesser vigor, close wounds and heal)

As this, you can still

become a warrior (divine might/righteous might)
summon (all the summon spells)
provide buffs (mass aid, lesser vigor, protection from evil, etc)
dispel magic , use dispel magic to counterspell
remove status effects/heal (lesser vigor, ressurect, restoration, etc)
and eventually you get the big guns like gate and miracle too

summoning alone is considered tier 2.

A sorcerer has a shorter list
needs protection spells for himself (the favored soul relies on all good saves, decent armor, shield)
some way to deal damage (favored soul has a decent weapon and BAB)
can rarely afford to spend spell knowns on summoning spells
but it eventually gets the big boy spells that make all of that mostly irrelevant

[Gnaeus]

Until level 4 spells come into play (level 8), I would say a favored soul is far more useful than a sorcerer. After that the balance gradually shifts in the sorcerer's favor. By level 6 or 7 spells, the sorcerer becomes superior which is pretty late in the game and it never completely overshadows a favored soul.

A sorcerer has a shorter list
needs protection spells for himself (the favored soul relies on all good saves, decent armor, shield)
some way to deal damage (favored soul has a decent weapon and BAB)
can ALMOST ALWAYS afford to spend spell knowns on summoning spells
but it eventually gets the big boy spells that make all of that mostly irrelevant

Fixed that for you. Sorcs might not take the low level ones, but summon monster 4+ should almost always be the first or second spell known. Summon monster 4 alone packs close to a dozen third level spell equivalents between the archon and the mephits. But by that point the math is done because:

Polymorph.

Need to buff your fighter into a huge weapon using monster? Polymorph.
All movement modes? Polymorph
Energy resists? Polymorph
Water breathing? Polymorph
Stupid high AC? Polymorph
Break something or move it with giant strength?Polymorph
Sneak around as a fine creature? Polymorph
Infiltrate a monster lair? Polymorph
Mild healing? Polymorph
Stupid range of extraordinary attacks? Polymorph

By 8th level a sorc with versatile spellcaster can cast polymorph like 7 times a day. That one spell alone is likely more versatile than the entire FS spells known.

Certainly, in a couple of levels planar binding and friends finishes the FS off. But really it's all over by 8.

[Anthrowhale]

Urgh. That text is so freaking stupid. In their quest to let Favored Souls take Initiate Feats, they stopped Clerics from taking them. Clerics are under no obligation to pick a deity, and as such they cannot take Initiate Feats under the Dragon Magic rules, despite the fact that the prerequisites for the vast majority of Initiate Feats literally say "Cleric Level X". In fact, I think Favored Souls are the only class who can take Initiate Feats under those rules, and I'm not even sure they strictly "qualify" so much as "the text has explicitly okayed them without explaining how they meet the requirements or even what those requirements are". I don't even think Clerics "use the Cleric list for spellcasting". They use it for spell preparation (and even that is shaky when you consider Domains), but once the spells are prepared they can just cast them.

I'm not saying you're wrong mind you, but those particular rules break the game super hard because whoever wrote them didn't bother to check what he was writing against the rest of the rules.

I think you are being to selective about what 'use' is since 'indirect use' is still 'use'. Here's my breakdown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=20971938&postcount=4) of the classes which can use Initiate feats.

Also for the optimized FS, here's the stats block.

LE Medium Outsider [good, cold]
Darkvision 60' + see in magical darkness (True Seeing at will) + Spot 22 (much higher with Owl's Insight+29, Divine Inspiration+15, Benediction+20)
AC 69 (Dex+5, Armor+10, Shield+7, Deflect+21, Sacred+5, Natural Armor+4, Luck+3, Insight+2, Dodge+2)
Fort 38 (FS+12, Con+8, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2) + Immune unless harmless or affects objects
Refl 40 (FS+12, Dex+5, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+5, Insight+2)
Will 36 (FS+12, Wis+4, Resist+6, Luck+5, Morale+5, Sacred+2, Iron Will+2) + Immune Mind-affecting
Initiative +5
Ranged Touch attack+49 (base attack+20, Dex+5, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for 30 Fire (45 vs evil) or 5d6 Acid (x1.5 vs evil)
Melee attacks+115 (base attack+20, Str+71, Enhance+21, Luck+3) for by-weapon damage
Caster level 50/60(buffs) (20 base +29 Consumptive Field+4 Prayer Bead:Karma+4 Ankh of Ascension+1 Orange Ioun Stone+1 Robe of Arcane Might)
Strength 156 (12+120 Consumptive Field+6 Enhance+4 Clawed Arm+8 Size+2 Sacred)
Dexterity 22 (13+1 Inherent+6 Enhance)
Constitution 26 (13+2 Inherent-1 Cerebrosis+6 Enhance+4 Size+2 Sacred)
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 18 (14 +4 Inherent) (+Owl's Insight)
Charisma 32 (16 base, Enhance+6, Level+5, inherent+5)
Immunity to Mind-Affecting, Paralysis, Stunning, Death, Suffocation, Poison, Sleep, Critical Hits, Non-lethal, Starvation, Massive Damage, Fort unless harmless or affects objects, Energy Drain, Ability Drain, Fatigue, Exhaustion, Physical Ability Damage, Cold, Fire, Acid, Electricity, Sonic, Death by Damage, Encumbering Magic, Grapple, Dazzle, Blindness, Spells, SLAs, and Su via Antimagic Field.

... so basically a melee monster that is immune to most things with several no-save-just-die spells as a backup (wall of sand, maximized shivering touch, holy word/blasphemy, spread of contentment, erupt) and very powerful minionmancy via the necrotic line of spells.

[Soranar]

Polymorph is a big spell, but often a different spell or a lower level spell (that you would pick normally) can achieve the same result. It also only targets 1 character per casting so even 7 slots isn't that impressive in certain situations that require your whole party to do something (assuming your standard 4 people party)

Need to buff your fighter into a huge weapon using monster? Polymorph.


or just summon a disposable big stupid fighter with summon monster 4, hell just use yourself with divine power


All movement modes? Polymorph

for 1 character sure but you're better off summoning flying mounts or using magic items than wasting 4 spells on giving your party a new movement mode


Energy resists? Polymorph

or use energy resist?

Water breathing? Polymorph

or use water breathing spell which will last hours and can be divided up between your party members. Level 3 isn't that great for a favored soul, it's not that big of a deal to pick this.

Stupid high AC? Polymorph

that's what magic vestment is for

Break something or move it with giant strength?Polymorph

summon monster has that covered, bull strength on a barbarian can do the trick too

Sneak around as a fine creature? Polymorph

I got nothing for that, being subtle is not a favored soul's cup of tea. Though you need 4 castings to make your whole party do this.

Infiltrate a monster lair? Polymorph

again I got nothing, see above

Mild healing? Polymorph

now that's plain wasteful, you're doing something a FS can do with a level 1 spell

Stupid range of extraordinary attacks? Polymorph

ex attacks are useful for someone without actual attack abilities, a favored soul can just fight

By 8th level a sorc with versatile spellcaster can cast polymorph like 7 times a day. That one spell alone is likely more versatile than the entire FS spells known.

It really isn't, it's good but it's not THAT good and it's just one dispel magic away from disappearing. It can definitely solve many encounters but a polymorphed sorcerer is just that, a d4 hitpoints weakling with poor BAB.

The sorcerer is a powerhouse due to his access to action economy but that doesn't become that useful until you reach higher levels. You use so many spells that way that you tend to nuke encounters , it's harder for a sorcerer to pace himself throughout the day.

What makes me think that a favored soul is just as useful for the party is stuff like freedom of movement, revivify, mass lesser vigor, energy immunity, heal. Both have very different roles to play in a party. A sorcerer is a poor wizard, a favored soul is a cleric without domain spells

In many ways this feels like cleric vs wizard but in this case the wizard's spell knowns is heavily restricted while some of the cleric's best spells are taken away. Losing DMM also hurts if you don't get turn undead back through a prestige class.

[bahamut920]

Gnaeus' point wasn't that the favored soul couldn't do those things, or that polymorph was the only (or even the best) way to do those things. His point was that it's a very powerful, very versatile spell that can take the place of a lot of other spells in a pinch, and that it pulls its weight and more as one of a spontaneous caster's very limited list of spells known, which is one you quite helped prove in your argument. Look at how many other spells your hypothetical favored soul would have to know to fill all of the niches that he mentioned, and how you couldn't find a spell of equivalent or lesser level for some of them. Polymorph is sort of like the spell equivalent of the factotum class; a very versatile option that can handle a wide variety of situations. There may well be a more efficient or powerful way to handle the situation, but when you have a limited number of options, anything that helps round out your abilities in such a broad way is highly useful.

[Anthrowhale]

In calibrating the power of a Favored Soul, it's important to remember that they have about 2 more spells known of the top 3 spell levels than a Sorcerer. In particular at charater level 8 it is 3 vs 1 @4, 4 vs 2 @3, 5 vs 3 @2 and 6 vs 5 @1.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I'm going to agree with the sentiment that (well built) FS is better in the early-to-mid game, is slowly overtaken by Sorcerers as they get a decent amount of spells known and start having access to the juicy ones, but in the end they are both get 9ths.

The FS does have a serious amount of extra spells over the Sorc, tho. They are looking at 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4 at 20th. Sorcerers meanwhile are rocking 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3. That's a very considerable difference, especially at the higher levels. That's double the amount of 6th and 7th level spells, 66% more 8th and 25% more 9th.

So while the Sorcerer starts getting the really nice spells, the FS has a ton more of very-solid ones, with the occasional gems like Holy Word sprinkled in. I'd say it evens out, especially considering FS's chassis.

Say what you will, but all-good saves, d8 and mithral fullplate and animated shield combined with access to things like Divine Agility, Conviction, Spell Resistance and others make for a very, very solid character.

Like fighting demons and devils, they are annoyingly well-rounded. There is no easy I-win with something with a bunch of resistances, AC, good saves, SR, DR, flight, teleport...

FS's much greater spell capacity means it can easily play into this to no great detriment to itself.

[Fizban]

Favored Soul has extra spell slots to make up for the fact that their obvious role is replacing the Cleric, and the Cleric is supposed to have all the "survive/remove X monster ability" spells. The Favored Soul likely does not have enough spells known to actually know all these spells (or if they do they won't have much of anything else), which means FS is inferior at filling its designated role. The Sorcerer is capable of filling the arcane role, because it only takes a couple of crowd-control and unstoppable spells to actually fill.

Using a Favored Soul in the arcane slot, they get fewer and worse crowd-control/unstoppable spells, usually later, so they aren't as good there either. Most notably, while having d8's and healing sounds better at low levels, swarms of monsters (and swarm monsters) remain possible, as well as monsters with high AC and resistance to normal weapons. I think if FS pulls ahead there it's not because of the class, but rather from general optimization that could apply to any character.

[Telok]

On the d8 hp thing, do note that the difference between d4 and d8 is equal to 4 con. You could well argue that a FS with +4 Wis and Cha items is functionally similar to a sorcerer with +4 Con and Cha items. Likewise you could compare mithril full plate to Alter Self for AC purposes.

[Rebel7284]

This is off topic, but why not just be both? :D

Bamboo Spirit Folk
Favored Soul 1/Sorcerer 2/Mystic Theurge 4/Arcane Hierophant 10/Mystic Theurge +3

Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell works on both sides.

Casts as Sorcerer 19, Favored Soul 18

[TotallyNotEvil]

On the d8 hp thing, do note that the difference between d4 and d8 is equal to 4 con. You could well argue that a FS with +4 Wis and Cha items is functionally similar to a sorcerer with +4 Con and Cha items. Likewise you could compare mithril full plate to Alter Self for AC purposes.
I don't know, Dynamic Priest solves the MAD issue neatly.

And armour can be enchanted.

I think the many extra spells, and the cleric list, are being underestimated here.

[Luccan]

I think the many extra spells, and the cleric list, are being underestimated here.

Agreed. True, part of the greatness of the cleric lay in it's ability to use any cleric spell given a days notice, but the list isn't actually bad. If it were, cleric's wouldn't be powerhouses. The wizard/sorcerer list might be better, but the cleric list is still solid.

[Anthrowhale]

The reason why I think a sorcerer still comes out on top is because a FS has no good action economy abuse. A sorcerer at level 9 can potentially nova with Twin Celerity. While nova approaches aren't terribly sustainable, they are pretty good for taking down any individual opponent.

[Kobold Esq]

Urgh. That text is so freaking stupid. In their quest to let Favored Souls take Initiate Feats, they stopped Clerics from taking them.

It doesn't stop clerics, and doesn't change the original prerequisite. It just created a loophole to allow additional classes to qualify. Imagine you created a rule that said "any class that grants an exotic weapon proficiency may count levels in that class as levels of fighter for the purpose of qualifying for weapon specialization." Now monks and bards qualify, but that doesn't PREVENT a fighter from still qualifying.