[3.5] Build Help; Optimizing a Shugenja/Void Disciple or Wu Jen/Jade Pheonix Mage

[Nautilust]

I've finally found a class and race combination that my Gm approves of; either Crane Hangeyokai Shugenja X/Void Disciple X or Crab Hangeyokai Swordsage 1/Wu Jen X/Jade Pheonix Mage X. I'm fine with either of these as long as I can get my character finished!

Hybrid Crane Shugenja goes
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha

10/14/14/15/08/17

Elemental Focus is either Air or Water

Feats are ?

OR

Hybrid Crab Swordsage/Wu Jen goes
Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha

14/12/15/17/08/10

Stances?
Maneuvers?
Feats are ?

(I will be using the elemental mastery rules for the Wu Jen instead of the Spell Secrets)

[Amphetryon]

I would advise against the Shugenja/Void Disciple; without cheesing your CL & progression, the lost Caster levels are too painful on Shugenja's Spell list.

For the JPM, it's generally best to delay your Swordsage entry as long as possible, so you can use higher level Maneuvers. Diamond Mind is a natural fit, since you'll want a high Concentration anyway.

[Nautilust]

Plus you get access to Immolation and Transcend Mortality at high levels.

How does waiting to enter swordsage help determine the levels of maneuvers you can take?

[Nautilust]

Thinking about switching from Crab Hengeyokai to Crane Hengeyokai. Fly and a +2 to dex is pretty nice

[DeTess]

How does waiting to enter swordsage help determine the levels of maneuvers you can take?

The maneuvers you can take are based on your initator level. Your initiator level is equal to your levels in an initiator class, and your half your levels in all other classes. For example, if you take 5 levels of Wu Jen first, and then take 1 level of swordsage, your initaitor level is 5*1/2+1=3.5, which rounds down to 3. This means you can take second level maneuvers. If you take swordsage first, you can only take first level maneuvers.

[Deadline]

How does waiting to enter swordsage help determine the levels of maneuvers you can take?

The level of maneuvers you can take depend on your Initiator level. A Swordsage 1 has an initiator level of 1. A Wu Jen 4/Swordsage 1 has an initiator level of 3 (and can thus elect to take 2nd level maneuvers that they qualify for), due to the fact that non-initiator classes grant 1/2 initiator levels.

[Nautilust]

Thanks for the explanations. I didn't know that part about the other character classes counting for 1/2.

[illyahr]

Without the Rokugan Campaign Setting book, shugenja don't get much versatility. That said, water shugenja lose access to any decent attack spells whereas air shugenja lose any bfc spells.

Wu jen gain a lot of blaster and bfc spells. If you know the Naruto anime/manga, you could make a very good naruto-style ninja, especially with your swordsage/jpm combo

Not much support for either, but both very flavorful.

[Nautilust]

I left optimization for flavor when i found out Hangeyokai are LA +1

[illyahr]

I left optimization for flavor when i found out Hangeyokai are LA +1

Only LA +1 due to Shape changer creature type (immune to x person spells). Shapechanger changed to a subtype in 3.5 so LA dropped according to the OA 3.5 update (Dragon Magazine 318 I think).

OA was my favorite book as it was. It got awesome with the 3.5 update :smallbiggrin:

[Nautilust]

Only Problem is that my GM does not apparantly use Errata in favor of whatever is in a book. Which is one of the myriad of problems I am starting to have with him

[illyahr]

Wow, really? "This doesn't work anymore, it works this way now. -Wizards of the Coast" isn't good enough for him? That must be frustrating.

[ZamielVanWeber]

3.5 has officially turned shapechanger from a type to a subtype, so he has to deal with that implication. Also in general avoid shugenja unless you have access to something like Magic of Rokugan as it has some issues (such as being required to select spells that simply do not exist).

[Nautilust]

I told him that WotC Erratta changed that but I doubt the outcome will be anything but frustrating. Could I get some links maybe that would help.

EDIT: He didn't even answer me this time. Does anyone know of an instance where it's on paper so I can throw it at his face.

[illyahr]

You can google it. It can be found as a PDF. Print the page off and wave it in his face :smallbiggrin:

[Nautilust]

I might have to try that, cause at this rate when at ECL 20 i'm still just casting 8th level spells

[Nautilust]

And now he's saying he looked at the Errata and LA didn't change

[illyahr]

It's not errata, though. It's the official conversion from 3.0 to 3.5 found in Dragon Magazine #318, a publication printed by WotC.

[Psyren]

I left optimization for flavor when i found out Hangeyokai are LA +1

Does your GM allow LA buyoff? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm)

[Nautilust]

That might be useful to know. But at the moment i've given up and am looking at the Druid,