A World Without Wizards (and Clerics and Druids etc)

[N0RKS]

I'm starting a new game in a super low-magic setting, an ancient civilisation was great at magic and they made a bunch of cool stuff, but now a lot of their secrets have been lost.

No new magical items can be made, and I'm banning any class with full-caster progression. I've run a lot of games, but can you lot see any unexpected problems I'm going to run into with this set up?

[Elkad]

As long as there is plenty of used stuff to buy, it'll be fine.

If your players are scrounging for gear? Yeah, you'll have issues with some encounters at higher levels, when the party is expected to have flight for everyone, various immunities, etc.

[Mikemical]

Well, no magic means no magical beasts either.

[N0RKS]

Well, no magic means no magical beasts either.

Magic exists, and is a part of the natural order, people just have limited knowledge of how to manipulate or access it.

And yeah there should be pretty regular chances for them to get magical gear. They won't be able to buy it very cheaply, but I'm not stingy with loot

[DeTess]

I don't really see any trouble, though you might want to be a bit more careful with high-CR encounters, as the party without casters would be weaker than a same-level party with a wizard or cleric. This does depend non the party make-up, of course. If your players just decide to play solid half-casters and initiators, it still won't be an issue, but a monk, rogue, fighter and Barbarian would definitely suffer from lack of magical support.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Your biggest concern is likely to be healing. I'm in a game without any conventional casters right now, and keeping health topped off is hard. Half casters can manage some hit point stuff, especially if wands and the like are available, but you should be careful of long-term status conditions-- it'll be harder to rustle up a Restoration or Break Enchantment when the monster manual expects you to.

[Psyren]

I'm starting a new game in a super low-magic setting, an ancient civilisation was great at magic and they made a bunch of cool stuff, but now a lot of their secrets have been lost.

No new magical items can be made, and I'm banning any class with full-caster progression. I've run a lot of games, but can you lot see any unexpected problems I'm going to run into with this set up?

This means that magic items will be rare, right? You're going to need an alternate gearing system (e.g. Automatic Bonus Progression) or a hard cap on how high the game will advance (e.g. E6) - not doing those will basically screw over your playes once they start getting to high levels with no Cloaks of Resistance and whatnot.

[AnimeTheCat]

I enjoy low-no magic settings, but it does take effort to set up. You can do it by having more pc class humanoids or monsters than monsters straight out of the MM. This helps some people feel more "epic" when slaying a demon. They're not common place, they're not warping in and terrorizing towns. They do tend to feel more gritty though.

One method of managing the healing is to outfit the party with healing belts. Maybe a cache from the ancients in a tomb or something. This would let the party go a little longer and heal faster. Plus, they're cheap and I do t think anyone would consider them game breaking.

[Nifft]

I'm starting a new game in a super low-magic setting, an ancient civilisation was great at magic and they made a bunch of cool stuff, but now a lot of their secrets have been lost.

No new magical items can be made, and I'm banning any class with full-caster progression. I've run a lot of games, but can you lot see any unexpected problems I'm going to run into with this set up?

You can create a setting where Wizards (etc.) never existed, and all magic items come from level 12+ Warlocks, or from the spells of various monsters (e.g. Dragons & Couatls who cast as Sorcerers + Clerics, Nymphs who have access to Druid spells, etc.).

[Goaty14]

Make sure the players have some sort of ready to use healing, because the heal skill is just bad and slow. Make sure that they have a healing belt or something before Dungeons and Dragons turns into Heros and Hospitals. (Sorry, I just really wanted to say that)

EDIT: Ninja'd or Swordsage'd I don't know, but it's one of those.

[arkangel111]

As mentioned by others, healing will be an issue. I suggest making healing potions non-magical and craftable with alchemy or heal skill. perhaps letting other plant and animal combinations mimic those of spells and the like. DND never really let their plants adopt the magical energies for some reason but in a world where magic exists the plants would need to evolve to stay ahead of the game too.

I disagree that flight is a requirement, arrows exist for a reason. Just make sure you give everyone the opportunity to get a decent ranged weapon during the campaign. You should also talk with the party OOC and let them know that magic items are rare, and thus there is little reason for them to sell items anyways. this will keep some of the items that you prep them with in party instead of sold for scrap.

I also suggest giving out several free tax feats. Every warrior in a fantasy setting should have fired a bow at least a few times especially if they have martial weapons. weapon focus is a no brainer, most characters are built around the idea of using a specific type of weapon anyways. If I am making Montana Smith, the indiana jones look-a-like bard do you think I am going to want to use anything other than a whip and gun (crossbow). Buffing the party with a bunch of feats can make the lack of items feel like less of a hindrance.

One thing I am doing in my current campaign since my whole group chose no magic. I gave them a powerful intelligent item, a sentient spellbook. It is effectively a DMPC and they can only ask it for things. But I have given it the ability to cast 1 spell (of any level, but I choose what) per day to help the PC's. It's not much but it has saved their lives or turned the tide of battle on more than one occasion. Since it is only one spell the PC's still end up over their head's a lot but I am never going to over shadow them. I have used it to cast fog and create some helping/hindering battlefield conditions, an indiscriminate fireball blasting the whole room and knocking a PC unconscious. They once demanded he cast a spell to help them, he cast resistance and jumped back into the backpack. Doing this sent the message that I/he was NOT their tool. Overall the character is more for imparting some story knowledge that I occasionally can't get to them through their own methods of discovery. But, the party loves the character and include him in their often misguided plans.

[heavyfuel]

Go nuts

Wands of CLW can be created by Bards and Healers, and Wands of Lesser Vigor by Healers (remember that SpC clause that non-core classes also get spells) which means they should be aplenty.

Also, the CR system was (poorly) created under the assumption of a very low-OP party and 25 PB. Any party with 32 PB and considered even medium-OP should wipe the floor with CR appropriate encounters, so even high level encounters shouldn't be a problem.

And don't forget Healers

[Psyren]

Also, the CR system was (poorly) created under the assumption of a very low-OP party and 25 PB. Any party with 32 PB and considered even medium-OP should wipe the floor with CR appropriate encounters, so even high level encounters shouldn't be a problem.

They will be a problem if magic items (at least the Big Six, and a few other things like flight and restoration) aren't available. The math simply doesn't work without them at high levels, or even mid.

[gooddragon1]

Will monsters like dragons and other things with access to high level spells be able to access those spells?

[rel]

Some monsters have abilities that basically read
'you must have a cleric of at least xth level with the following spell prepared or someone is going to die.'

modify said abilities to no longer require a cleric. e.g. A chaos Beasts Corporeal Instability might read:

A blow from a chaos beast against a living creature can cause a terrible transformation. The creature must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or become a spongy, amorphous mass. Unless the victim manages to control the effect (see below), its shape melts, flows, writhes, and boils. The save DC is Constitution-based.

An affected creature is unable to hold or use any item. Clothing, armor, rings, and helmets become useless. Large items worn or carried—armor, backpacks, even shirts—hamper more than help, reducing the victim’s Dexterity score by 4. Soft or misshapen feet and legs reduce speed to 10 feet or one-quarter normal, whichever is less. Searing pain courses along the nerves, so strong that the victim struggles to act coherently. The victim cannot cast spells or use magic items, and is blind.

Each round the victim spends in an amorphous state causes 1 point of Wisdom damage from mental shock. This damage cannot reduce a characters wisdom below five.

A victim can regain its own shape by taking a standard action to attempt a DC 15 Charisma check or control shape check (this check DC does not vary for a chaos beast with different Hit Dice or ability scores). A success reestablishes the creature’s normal form for 1 minute. On a failure, the victim can still repeat this check each round until successful.

A character suffering corporeal instability makes a DC 15 Fortitude save to end the effect at the end of every minute.

Corporeal instability is not a disease or a curse but it can be removed by the spell restoration or similar magic. A DC 20 knowledge the planes check or a DC 25 heal check, either check taking 1 minute to perform also ends the condition.

[Fizban]

As rel has pointed out: People focus on healing, but it's not the hp that's the problem, it's the status effects and immunity buffs. Printed monsters assume that the players will either have a Cleric or access to a Cleric for hire and scrolls to remove crippling status effects and protect against monster special abilities. A Bard or Paladin can restore hp, but they can't just wake up and pop out half a dozen copies of Remove Fear/Delay Poison/Lesser Restoration/Resist Energy/Remove Disease/Remove Curse/Protection from Energy/Water Breathing/Break Enchantment/Restoration/Death Ward/Freedom of Movement/Air Walk/Heal/Greater Restoration and more I've not got off the top of my head. Some of these can be obtained by reduced casting classes, but it will be even later than the game expects. Having the party mysteriously find enough scrolls of every spell they could need to deal with everything they find is rather contrived.

[Eldariel]

Resurrection is the big one. Normally PCs die regularly but in almost all cases save TPKs they can effortlessly be brought back to life, albeit a level behind (which they'll soon catch back up to if they don't die repeatedly) either by PCs or NPCs who PCs either pay directly or perform some service in return. Suddenly, a single scythe crit isn't "****, I died" but "****, I died and all the work I poured into my character and his relevance and ties in the world is gone and I have to put hours or days into that process again if I'd like to continue the campaign". Of course, even in normal game this problem exists to a degree on lower levels but it can be handwaved away with benevolent "beginner guide" NPC Clerics who are willing to do the deed with just something to compensate for the costs down the line.

[Fizban]

See, I knew I'd forgotten a major status effect.

[Calimehter]

One option is to make status effect removal available through alternative means. Incantations from UA are one possibility, and the original E6 document spells out a similar sort of "ritual-based" type of magic that exists outside of the Vancian magic system.

Making such things available doesn't increase the PCs tactical power level. It also keeps status effects meaningful in the short term without making them a permanent penalty on any given PC in the long term.

[Nifft]

You could also make "permanent" status effects the sort of thing that you can get rid of with a saving throw, perhaps with one try per day in a gritty game, or once per hour in a more cinematic game.

That retains the "save-or-screwed" aspect but doesn't require an entire class of spells to be available.

The "dead" condition remains serious, though. No save to remove that.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

You might actually want to run it as an e6 (or e8 if Pathfinder). That caps magic aside from a few specialized builds (exclusive to clerics and fixed-list casters) that could actually be used as narrative tools. Raise Dead becomes the sole domain of the high priest to the god of Life for instance.

[Hurin]

All the other posts here have some great suggestions. Really consider eliminating monsters with innate spellcasting and psionics if you do this, or at least removing the (su) abilities. Monsters like beholders, phaerimm, illithids, etc become far more powerful than their cr indicates when a party has limited magic. Not that you would use those monsters, but the point is that monster access to magic (and bizarre abilities that players would need magic to replicate) makes them op if players are near mundane. For instance, even innate access to wind wall, a second level spell, becomes excessively good in an ultra low magic world, because it pretty much makes mundane archers irrelevant.

[Luccan]

You'll see a lot of bards? If by full casting you mean 9th level spells. It should be noted, there are at least two or three full casters that don't nearly match the others (healer, shugenja, and warmage), and come closer to bards in power and/or versatility. But yeah, if you get rid of all 9th level casters, bards become the most powerful magical class in the game. Cutting down further gets you duskblades, and further, the half casters like rangers and paladins... Don't let anyone play a spellthief, they'll be unable to make use of their abilities most of the time.

As has been said, avoid magically powerful monsters and monsters that require magic to defeat (unless your PCs do have the right items, but still be cautious). I'm going to assume psionics, along with Warlock and DFA, aren't in play either. Consider making the paladin and dragon shaman's lay-on-hands/healing-touch more useful at low levels and gain better healing abilities (removal of disease, curses) as time goes on. Dragon shaman's already does this, but way too late to matter. Still it might be a good template.

[Cosi]

One strategy to mitigate the effects of status conditions would be to move a little on the "no casters" restriction. Instead of flat no casters, have one (or maybe two, one Arcane and one Divine) caster class that gets a very basic list of spells (whatever core utility spells you need, plus blasting magic), and then allow characters to find spells as loot when they explore ancient ruins. That has the added benefit of giving you some loot for casters to get excited about.

[Eldariel]

You could also improve Heal-skill particularly at high ranks for removing supernatural afflictions if those are still in game. You could potentially tie that to special herbs á la Athelas to add a little minigame to it and to make it a bit more engaging but just ensure supplies exist and they can be bought. The skill desperately needs help and expansion anyways - this is kind of a perfect way to go about it.

[Nifft]

You could also improve Heal-skill particularly at high ranks for removing supernatural afflictions if those are still in game. You could potentially tie that to special herbs á la Athelas to add a little minigame to it and to make it a bit more engaging but just ensure supplies exist and they can be bought. The skill desperately needs help and expansion anyways - this is kind of a perfect way to go about it.

I really like this idea.

In this vein, maybe expand more than just Heal -- so like, you could also Survival your way to a remedy for a natural disease, or Knowledge (___) to a remedy for a supernatural disease.

[unseenmage]

My first thought was that it doesnt take too many levels to cheese Diplomancy and convince a monster with full casting to do the work for you...

[N0RKS]

Will monsters like dragons and other things with access to high level spells be able to access those spells?

No they won't, my party is pretty low-mid op, and a dragon etc is gonna be plenty of challenge without access to spellcasting. Plus I tend to favour npc enemies rather than monsters anyway.


One option is to make status effect removal available through alternative means. Incantations from UA are one possibility, and the original E6 document spells out a similar sort of "ritual-based" type of magic that exists outside of the Vancian magic system.

Making such things available doesn't increase the PCs tactical power level. It also keeps status effects meaningful in the short term without making them a permanent penalty on any given PC in the long term.


You could also make "permanent" status effects the sort of thing that you can get rid of with a saving throw, perhaps with one try per day in a gritty game, or once per hour in a more cinematic game.


These both sound very good


You could also improve Heal-skill particularly at high ranks for removing supernatural afflictions if those are still in game. You could potentially tie that to special herbs á la Athelas to add a little minigame to it and to make it a bit more engaging but just ensure supplies exist and they can be bought. The skill desperately needs help and expansion anyways - this is kind of a perfect way to go about it.

This and the mundane health potions idea both appeal to me, I'll figure out some expansions for herbology and alchemy

[Jormengand]

There are a few classes that can rustle up some restorative abilities (in particular, truenamers have access to ways of getting rid of almost any status effect short of dead, but almost without exception they come very late, although a particularly liberal reading of freedom of movement and by extension inertia surge allows you to let people under some of the effects act normally for a very short time). They also have some hit point healing at level 1, although annoyingly it's not any good in combat. Depending on how you read Extra Spell, you may also be able to get 6-level casters who know Raise Dead (the truenamer's ability to gate someone who knows a raising ability in at 20th level is probably a bit late).

The alternative is just to modify what monsters you use. Sure, most of the encounters you fight by high levels will have an ability you can't deal with, but behemoth eagles don't have any of that even at CR 18. Similarly, legendary tigers are a great CR 10 monster for a party with no means of flying or dealing with anything other than hit point damage.

If you want to use something else, check what the party has. Paladins can cure hit point damage from level 2, ability damage, fatigue and exhaustion from level 4, disease from level 6, spells, blindness, deafness and curses from level 11, and enchantments, transmutations, negative levels and ability drain from level 14. Bards can cure hit point damage and fear from level 2, spells and curses from level 7, and enchantments, transmutations, holding effects and poison from level 10. Adepts can cure hit point damage from level 1, poison, curses and disease from level 8, ability damage, drain and level drain from level 12, and enchantments, transmutations, blinding, confusion, dazing, dazzling, deafening, exhaustion, fatigue, nauseation, sickening, stunning and death from level 16. I mentioned truenamers because I always mention truenamers they can cure hit point damage and holding effects (well, sort of - the duration doesn't stand up to actual freedom of movement, but it might allow you to move out of the area of something entangling you, say) from level 1, fear, ability damage, ability drain, and spells from level 10, item destruction from level 11, negative levels from level 14, ability damage, blinding, confusion, dazing, dazzling, deafening, disease, exhaustion, fatigue, nauseation, sickening, stunning, and poison from level 18 and anything which a solar angel or other high-powered outsider can heal from level 20 which is a fairly decent array (at least, while clerics and healers are out of the picture). None of those classes is great, but they're the best healers I can think of while cleric, druid and, well, healer are all out of the picture.