How to throw a good punch? (Ranged Unnarmed Strike)

[JW86]

Hi,

Can anybody recall the various means of being able to use one's fist as a ranged weapon, and throw it?

Many thanks.

J

[Psyren]

3.5: Ring The Golden Bell, Blood Wind

PF: Blood Crow Strike

[SirNibbles]

Spell Compendium, page 33 has the spell Blood Wind, which allows you to make UAS (and Natural Weapon Attacks) as if they were thrown weapons with a 20 foot range increment.

A +1 Throwing Returning Necklace of Natural Attacks is another common way to throw your punches.

[SangoProduction]

Well, be a small dude, and have a larger dude throw you.

[Anxe]

The Detach feat from Savage Species lets you tear parts of yourself off and throw them at people.

[Gruftzwerg]

A +1 Throwing Returning Necklace of Natural Attacks is another common way to throw your punches.

I would add warlock Disembodied Hand invocation. This way you really throw your punches^^

And not to forget, you can still use other body parts for your unarmed strikes. ^^

flank an enemy by yourself with just your hands.

[Bakkan]

I believe Kensai allows you to enhance your unarmed attack with the throwing and returning enchantments.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I believe Kensai allows you to enhance your unarmed attack with the throwing and returning enchantments.This or the necklace work well.

Also, you can just get a ton of reach and "punch the air" such that the shockwave smashes your opponent...

...rather like Saitama of One Punch Man fame, in fact.

[Calthropstu]

Why would you want to throw perfectly good punch? Such a waste...

[Calthropstu]

I believe Kensai allows you to enhance your unarmed attack with thethrowing and returning enchantments.

Errr... what happens when someone takes the snatch feat and catches your fist?
I could just see it now...
They then could throw it back at you and ask "why are you hitting yourself?"

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Errr... what happens when someone takes the snatch feat and catches your fist?
I could just see it now...
They then could throw it back at you and ask "why are you hitting yourself?"You hurl yourself at them bodily, they catch your punch and block it with so much force that your fist rebounds and smacks you in the face.

[ShurikVch]

Northern Fist School (Dragon #315) allow to make single ranged unarmed attack as a full-round action; range is 5' per 5 levels

It's not a feat: you get it automatically when fit the prerequisites; Prerequisites are - Combat Expertise, Falling Star Strike, Freezing the Lifeblood, Improved Unarmed Strike, Pain Touch, Stunning Fist, and Unbalancing Strike

You may use any of prerequisite feats with this ranged attack (except Combat Expertise); if you don't use any, than your damage is doubled

[Zaq]

I forget, does Bloodstorm Blade explicitly disallow unarmed strikes/natural weapons?

[Gruftzwerg]

I forget, does Bloodstorm Blade explicitly disallow unarmed strikes/natural weapons?

1. ToB seems to be not permitted here. Otherwise I would have already mentioned BSB^^
edit: sry twisted 2 posts here..^^ no restrictions mentioned so far here

2.

A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.

As with the other example (Necklace of NA), If I would DM, I would demand from the player a legal way to "take off his hands without injuring himself". (e.g. warlock Disembodied Hand invocation)

_____
btw, another realism/rule problem I have with all of this is that when you want to throw something, you'll need a free hand..^^
So, I could see how you would trow 1 punch, but the second will be hard to accomplish. (Unless your are BSB 4 with lighting ricochet)

[Anxe]

As with the other example (Necklace of NA), If I would DM, I would demand from the player a legal way to "take off his hands without injuring himself". (e.g. warlock Disembodied Hand invocation)

_____
btw, another realism/rule problem I have with all of this is that when you want to throw something, you'll need a free hand..^^
So, I could see how you would trow 1 punch, but the second will be hard to accomplish. (Unless your are BSB 4 with lighting ricochet)

I've been thinking of most of these abilities as air punching. You punch the air so hard that the displaced wind causes damage to your target in that direction. Common occurrence in anime, so why not for a trained d&d monk?

[Gruftzwerg]

I've been thinking of most of these abilities as air punching. You punch the air so hard that the displaced wind causes damage to your target in that direction. Common occurrence in anime, so why not for a trained d&d monk?

I know what you mean, but that is not what the "throwing" enchantment on a Necklace of NA enables you. It doesn't allow you to throw the air. It allows you to throw your weapon (your hands).

"Blood Wind" spell on the other hand explicitly calls out that you may throw air with your unarmed attacks. Totally different effects here.

Imho Blood Wind is the only real way I am aware of how to punch with air.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I know what you mean, but that is not what the "throwing" enchantment on a Necklace of NA enables you. It doesn't allow you to throw the air. It allows you to throw your weapon (your hands).

"Blood Wind" spell on the other hand explicitly calls out that you may throw air with your unarmed attacks. Totally different effects here.

Imho Blood Wind is the only real way I am aware of how to punch with air.I usually use the "air punch shockwave" for melee attacks and "whole body hurl" for ranged. Unarmed strikes can encompass any type of strike with a blunt part of the body, after all, including body slams and shoulder checks. Ironically, this means that my melee attacks look like ranged attacks and my ranged attacks look like melee ones, which I just realized.

[ShurikVch]

Imho Blood Wind is the only real way I am aware of how to punch with air.Ki Barrage (Dragon #306), Northern Fist School (Dragon #315), and Ring the Golden Bell (Dragon #319) are another ways to do it

[SirNibbles]

Ki Barrage (Dragon #306), Northern Fist School (Dragon #315), and Ring the Golden Bell (Dragon #319) are another ways to do it

Northern Fist School (Dragon Magazine #315, page 66) has 7 feats as prerequisites and only allows a single attack as a full-round action.

Ring the Golden Bell (Dragon Compendium Volume I, page 105) is only usable 1+Wisdom modifier times per day.

Ki Barrage (Dragon Magazine #306, page 54) strangely requires Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot, requires a use of Stunning Fist each time you use it, and can't be used with Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist, Two-Weapon Fighting, or Rapid Shot. Each use allows you to make either a single attack or a full attack, so at least that's nice. Note that this is a 3.0 feat (since it's before Dragon Magazine #309) and may have some weird rulings, such as getting 3 attacks with BAB 7.

[ShurikVch]

Northern Fist School (Dragon Magazine #315, page 66) has 7 feats as prerequisites and only allows a single attack as a full-round action.It's not a feat - you get it automatically when fit the prerequisites; out of those 7 feats, 4 is on Fighter's bonus feat list; when you don't use some "rider effect" feats (such as Stunning Fist), your damage is doubled


Ring the Golden Bell (Dragon Compendium Volume I, page 105) is only usable 1+Wisdom modifier times per day.Yes. And..? :smallconfused:

[SirNibbles]

It's not a feat - you get it automatically when fit the prerequisites; out of those 7 feats, 4 is on Fighter's bonus feat list; when you don't use some "rider effect" feats (such as Stunning Fist), your damage is doubled

Yes. And..? :smallconfused:

1. Yes, you automatically get a Style Mastery once you meet the requirements, but you're still paying a huge feat tax. (Oriental Adventures, page 80) for rules about Style Mastery, for those interested.

Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist are going to be there in most builds, so those are fine. Falling Star Strike (Oriental Adventures, page 62) and Freezing the Lifeblood (Complete Warrior, page 99) are just taxes that aren't worth it because they only affect humanoids. Unbalancing Strike (Oriental Adventures, page 66) similarly only affects humanoids, but thankfully doesn't burn Stunning Fist uses as the previous two feats do. Pain Touch (Complete Warrior, page 103) adds a nice bonus to your Stunning Fist attacks for free, which is nice. Combat Expertise is a feat that you may or may not want, but I'd lean toward the latter.

Either way, you're paying way too many feats to get that ability.

2. If you're only able to use an ability 5 times per day, it's not exactly going to be useful as your main fighting style, especially when you compare it to an infinitely-usable Throwing/Returning Necklace.

[Gruftzwerg]

How about Bloodstorm Blade(4) + Gauntlets ?

SRD: Gauntlet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet)

A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack.

[SirNibbles]

How about Bloodstorm Blade(4) + Gauntlets ?

SRD: Gauntlet (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet)

Unarmed Strike and unarmed attack are different.

EDIT: I guess if you didn't care about using UAS, as long as it's a fist, you could use a gauntlet.

[ShurikVch]

1. Yes, you automatically get a Style Mastery once you meet the requirements, but you're still paying a huge feat tax. (Oriental Adventures, page 80) for rules about Style Mastery, for those interested.

Improved Unarmed Strike and Stunning Fist are going to be there in most builds, so those are fine. Falling Star Strike (Oriental Adventures, page 62) and Freezing the Lifeblood (Complete Warrior, page 99) are just taxes that aren't worth it because they only affect humanoids. Unbalancing Strike (Oriental Adventures, page 66) similarly only affects humanoids, but thankfully doesn't burn Stunning Fist uses as the previous two feats do. Pain Touch (Complete Warrior, page 103) adds a nice bonus to your Stunning Fist attacks for free, which is nice. Combat Expertise is a feat that you may or may not want, but I'd lean toward the latter.

Either way, you're paying way too many feats to get that ability.Way too much? :smallconfused:
Fighter's bonus feats are mostly trash - no point to cry about them
Thus, only Falling Star Strike, Pain Touch, and Unbalancing Strike are "real cost"
You said Pain Touch is "nice", and Unbalancing Strike may be taken with a flaw
So, "real cost" is drops down to 1 feat
Does any non-E6 game really suffer that much from spending of 7 feats (3 of which are "fine" and "nice", 2 other are trashy bonus feats, and 1 more - gotten from a flaw)?
Yes, it's "much", but is it "too much"?


2. If you're only able to use an ability 5 times per day, it's not exactly going to be useful as your main fighting style, especially when you compare it to an infinitely-usable Throwing/Returning Necklace.Necklace of Natural Weapons is a 3.0, thus - prone to DM's adjustments

[Menzath]

Funny enough I always read the throwing property and unarmed attacks as not only throwing your weapon, but everything attached to it.
I mean, when you throw a spear, you throw the entire thing, not just the spearhead , right?

I came across this conclusion when I was making a psion that would metamorph into a weapon and telekineticly throw himself.

What was even more confusing was when I got BsB levels on. I return to myself after throwing myself?

[Chronikoce]

I know what you mean, but that is not what the "throwing" enchantment on a Necklace of NA enables you. It doesn't allow you to throw the air. It allows you to throw your weapon (your hands).


Monks' whole bodies count as weapons so they don't have to throw their hands. They can throw their hair instead!

[Jack_Simth]

Errr... what happens when someone takes the snatch feat and catches your fist?
I could just see it now...
They then could throw it back at you and ask "why are you hitting yourself?"
I'd be slightly more concerned with what happens if they keep it, then cast "teleport" (possibly via Boots / Helm).

[Gruftzwerg]

Monks' whole bodies count as weapons so they don't have to throw their hands. They can throw their hair instead!

Sure, if you can show me how you are going to behead yourself and fix it back on your neck, go for it.
Otherwise, it will be a once in a lifetime move ;)

[Lord Raziere]

Fool's Errand Discipline: Death At Ten Paces. Dreamscarred PF maneuver that lets you hurt people up to 30 ft away with wind pressure alone by punching the air, right in the description. available at level 3.

[Andezzar]

Monks' whole bodies count as weapons so they don't have to throw their hands. They can throw their hair instead!Not just a monk's. Anybody can perform an unarmed strike with any part of his body.

However, the weapon is the unarmed strike, not a particular part of the attacker's body. There is no mention of somehow disassembling the weapon when it is thrown or returned. So the entire Unarmed Strike (i.e. the whole character) is moved.

[Gruftzwerg]

Not just a monk's. Anybody can perform an unarmed strike with any part of his body.

However, the weapon is the unarmed strike, not a particular part of the attacker's body. There is no mention of somehow disassembling the weapon when it is thrown or returned. So the entire Unarmed Strike (i.e. the whole character) is moved.

to clarify US with "any PART of his body" = not entire body at once.

You can choose the "body part" you want to attack with, not the entire body by RAW. That's the reason why a Necklace of NA with Sizing doesn't turn you into colossal size (only your weapon, not the entire body/character, even if you manage to attack with every body part once in a round it doesn't work.).

I still fail to see how Necklace of NA should work without a way to disembody your body parts (maybe warforged? I could see how it could work if you spend extra money for hands that can be disembodied. Rocket Punch inc.!^^).

And as others have pointed out, there are real ways to punch with air, so no need for DM fiat on other things here imho.

[Chronikoce]

HAIR not head. Your hair is part of your body and you can easily pull some of that out and throw it at your enemies.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

to clarify US with "any PART of his body" = not entire body at once.

You can choose the "body part" you want to attack with, not the entire body by RAW. That's the reason why a Necklace of NA with Sizing doesn't turn you into colossal size (only your weapon, not the entire body/character, even if you manage to attack with every body part once in a round it doesn't work.).

I still fail to see how Necklace of NA should work without a way to disembody your body parts (maybe warforged? I could see how it could work if you spend extra money for hands that can be disembodied. Rocket Punch inc.!^^).

And as others have pointed out, there are real ways to punch with air, so no need for DM fiat on other things here imho.When you "throw" a punch in real life, are you actually dismembering yourself?

[Gruftzwerg]

When you "throw" a punch in real life, are you actually dismembering yourself?

that's nitpicking and doesn't work for all languages (to "throw" a punch)...^^

And while English is the default language for undefined terms/words, if we really check the rules, no the (regular) monk may not "throw" his punches. He needs other abilities/item/whatsoever to do that.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

that's nitpicking and doesn't work for all languages (to "throw" a punch)...^^

And while English is the default language for undefined terms/words, if we really check the rules, no the (regular) monk may not "throw" his punches. He needs other abilities/item/whatsoever to do that.And you don't think it's nitpicking to demand that someone remove their hand to literally throw a punch? Why wouldn't you think the character would be smart enough to try hurling themselves at an enemy in order to hit them?

C'mon, man. Try making a bit of sense.

[Jack_Simth]

C'mon, man. Try making a bit of sense.You realize we're talking about D&D 3.5, right?

[Gruftzwerg]

And you don't think it's nitpicking to demand that someone remove their hand to literally throw a punch? Why wouldn't you think the character would be smart enough to try hurling themselves at an enemy in order to hit them?

C'mon, man. Try making a bit of sense.

I can just return, c'mon, try to stick at least a bit to the rules and stop wish-thinking ^^

You can't trow/hurl yourself. Common sense and physical laws don't seem to be any help here at all. The rules don't provide even the cheesiest base for this. So what's left is only the wish that it would be cool if, but nah.. doesn't work. Sry..

If you want to houserule this for a joyful build, go on, it won't break the game. But don't think every DM/rule-lawyer at your or other table/s will allow this. ;)

[Anxe]

Ooo! Remembered another one. From PHB2. The Ki Blast feat.

[Andezzar]

to clarify US with "any PART of his body" = not entire body at once.

You can choose the "body part" you want to attack with, not the entire body by RAW. That's the reason why a Necklace of NA with Sizing doesn't turn you into colossal size (only your weapon, not the entire body/character, even if you manage to attack with every body part once in a round it doesn't work.).

I still fail to see how Necklace of NA should work without a way to disembody your body parts (maybe warforged? I could see how it could work if you spend extra money for hands that can be disembodied. Rocket Punch inc.!^^).

And as others have pointed out, there are real ways to punch with air, so no need for DM fiat on other things here imho.An unarmed strike is a weapon, character has only one unarmed strike, the unarmed strike can be performed with any part of the body, ergo the entire body must be the one unarmed strike. The throwing property only allows you to throw a weapon, not a part of a weapon and thus the entire character must be displaced, or no part of the character, if you go with the figurative meaning of throwing a punch.

[SangoProduction]

This will literally go nowhere. This always happens whenever anyone mentions unarmed ranged attacks. Some people think you can't. Some think you can. And in the many threads on this, I've never seen anyone change sides on the issue.

Clarification: Talking about throwing whole self / detaching body parts.

[Menzath]

This will literally go nowhere. This always happens whenever anyone mentions unarmed ranged attacks. Some people think you can't. Some think you can. And in the many threads on this, I've never seen anyone change sides on the issue.

Well as I said, I do believe you can do ranged unarmed attacks, but if it's from the throwing enchantment then you most likely throw your whole body.
And as you are the projectile even if you get deflected or grabbed, you can't be thrown at yourself, and the latter means trying to enter grapple.
I see nothing wrong with how it works mechanically, but yeah it's an odd image.

[Psyren]

This will literally go nowhere. This always happens whenever anyone mentions unarmed ranged attacks. Some people think you can't. Some think you can. And in the many threads on this, I've never seen anyone change sides on the issue.

You definitely can with some spells (Blood Wind/Blood Crow Strike) and feats (Ring the Golden Bell/Ki Blast) - even if you're on the side that takes issue with people detaching their fists and flinging them, these methods are simply creating a projectile of some kind that does the same damage as your punch(es) without actually throwing your fist itself.

So that just leaves the Throwing method as the one causing problems.

[Gruftzwerg]

You definitely can with some spells (Blood Wind/Blood Crow Strike) and feats (Ring the Golden Bell/Ki Blast) - even if you're on the side that takes issue with people detaching their fists and flinging them, these methods are simply creating a projectile of some kind that does the same damage as your punch(es) without actually throwing your fist itself.

So that just leaves the Throwing method as the one causing problems.

100% agree here.
We have legal ways to "throw a punch", we don't need to give "throwing"-enchantment any extra fiat.
Or as said, you combine the "throwing"-enchantment with warlock "Disembodied Hand" invocation and may really "throw your punch" literally^^


An unarmed strike is a weapon, character has only one unarmed strike, the unarmed strike can be performed with any part of the body, ergo the entire body must be the one unarmed strike. The throwing property only allows you to throw a weapon, not a part of a weapon and thus the entire character must be displaced, or no part of the character, if you go with the figurative meaning of throwing a punch.

An unarmed strike is NOT a weapon. Otherwise it would a legal target for sunder and disarm.
And no, you are not allowed to use your entire body per the rules. The rules say, you can attack witch any body "part"(!). So you need to declare which part of you body you are using. There are examples given, and the "entire body" doesn't fit with the other examples (which are clear body-parts).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

An unarmed strike is NOT a weapon. Otherwise it would a legal target for sunder and disarm.Happily, the monk entry disagrees with that view entirely:


A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons.You can't disarm or sunder because they don't enhance it. Throwing and whatnot do, however.


And no, you are not allowed to use your entire body per the rules. The rules say, you can attack witch any body "part"(!). So you need to declare which part of you body you are using. There are examples given, and the "entire body" doesn't fit with the other examples (which are clear body-parts).So you bodyslam them. If you hurl your torso at someone, I would wager anything that the rest of you follows unless you're already modular.

[Psyren]

I would have the "throwing" enhancement work like a ki blast or other projectile - it generates and launches a magical facsimile of whatever flavor of unarmed strike you used (e.g. a ghostly headbutt or fist) at your opponent, but you can't use it to launch yourself across the battlefield. After all, the throwing enhancement says nothing about you being able to accompany your weapon even if you're attached to it, and without such a specific line the general rules for movement stay in existence.

[Menzath]

After all, the throwing enhancement says nothing about you being able to accompany your weapon even if you're attached to it, and without such a specific line the general rules for movement stay in existence.

I think that's mostly because normally there is no way to be attached to your weapon.

But in the case of unarmed strikes, you are the weapon, I get the fluff you want , and it is way simpler on rules, but how funny would it be to "throw" a headbutt clear across a room and then finish your full attack in their face.

Honestly it solves charging issues that monks get, and you wouldn't need to dip for pounce.

Wait, so how would you throw armor spikes?

[ShurikVch]

Blanket permission to apply "any weapon special quality" is a source of problems

You think Throwing is bad?
Then how about the Morphing?

IMHO, Necklace of Natural Weapons isn't very well-thought out (like many other things in Savage Species :smallamused:)

Also, maybe, Unarmed Strike shouldn't be a weapon at all?
Otherwise, what's will happen when you punch a Caryatid Column and roll 1?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Otherwise, what's will happen when you punch a Caryatid Column and roll 1?It becomes a katydid column?

[Psyren]

Honestly it solves charging issues that monks get, and you wouldn't need to dip for pounce.

I play Pathfinder where there are less silly solutions to that problem.


Wait, so how would you throw armor spikes?

The "projectile" ruling works fine here too.

[mastermisha1]

Also, maybe, Unarmed Strike shouldn't be a weapon at all?
Otherwise, what's will happen when you punch a Caryatid Column and roll 1?

We actually ran into this situation ingame. Our ruling was that should that occur, a regenrate spell would be needed.

[Andezzar]

An unarmed strike is NOT a weapon. Otherwise it would a legal target for sunder and disarm.You are wrong. The the UAS is clearly called out as a weapon in several places. A couple of examples:
Weapons found on Table 7–5: Weapons are described below, along with any special options for the wielder (“you”) has for their use.
[...]
Strike, Unarmed

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike
Ergo, an unarmed strike is a natural weapon. Still a character, even a monk, is safe from having your UAS sundered, because the weapon needs to be held to be sundered:
You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.
The wording for disarm is a bit ambiguous though. While the UAS safe from an armed disarm attempt, an unarmed attempt could be interpreted as a grapple with variant rules:

As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent. If you do so with a weapon, you knock the opponent’s weapon out of his hands and to the ground. If you attempt the disarm while unarmed, you end up with the weapon in your hand.You cannot knock something out of an opponent's hand that wasn't in his hand in the first place. But since the rules do not specify that disarm only works with manufactured weapons, a successful disarm attempt against an opponents UAS would result with the UAS ending in the aggressor's hand.


And no, you are not allowed to use your entire body per the rules. The rules say, you can attack witch any body "part"(!). So you need to declare which part of you body you are using. There are examples given, and the "entire body" doesn't fit with the other examples (which are clear body-parts).I am not saying that you can use the entire body with an UAS at the same time, but that the entire body is part of the UAS, just as only one edge of a longsword can be used for any given attack, both edges are part of the one longsword (along with the crossguard, hilt and pommel and other parts I may have forgotten).

@Caryatid Column: That people hitting marble have a chance of destroying their ability to attack without weapons sounds right to me.

[SangoProduction]

You definitely can with some spells (Blood Wind/Blood Crow Strike) and feats (Ring the Golden Bell/Ki Blast) - even if you're on the side that takes issue with people detaching their fists and flinging them, these methods are simply creating a projectile of some kind that does the same damage as your punch(es) without actually throwing your fist itself.

So that just leaves the Throwing method as the one causing problems.


Clarification: Talking about throwing whole self / detaching body parts. It's been talked to death.

[Psyren]

Clarification: Talking about throwing whole self / detaching body parts. It's been talked to death.

Yep agreed. That one is never going to have consensus.

[Vaern]

Errr... what happens when someone takes the snatch feat and catches your fist?
I could just see it now...
They then could throw it back at you and ask "why are you hitting yourself?"
And for a monk, just like grappling and turning his own unarmed fists against him, it should retain its improved unarmed strike damage.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Errr... what happens when someone takes the snatch feat and catches your fist?
I could just see it now...
They then could throw it back at you and ask "why are you hitting yourself?"https://youtu.be/xYpfCrJPry4?t=361